So, the Augsburg Confession

[Joykins]

So, I went through the Augsburg Confession. It's kind of long compared to most statements of faith I have come across! Out of the numbered points on the website from the Chief Articles of Faith (excluding the Conclusion), I can agree to 363 out of 376 points without reservation. Of course, probably the preponderance of those are what I would call historical, as in yes, I agree with Luther about what kind of things were church abuses, misuse of the gospel message, etc.

There are still a few (13 or so) points I have some reservations about.

Should one become a Lutheran if one has reservations about any of these things?

I've listed the 13 I have trouble with below. Not too surprisingly, they sometimes begin "They condemn the Anabaptists..."

Article II: Of Original Sin.

1] Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with 2] concupiscence; and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.

3] They condemn the Pelagians and others who deny that original depravity is sin, and who, to obscure the glory of Christ's merit and benefits, argue that man can be justified before God by his own strength and reason.

I don't disagree with all of this but I do believe that it is possible that people of other religions who truly seek God and the Good but do not properly understand Jesus Christ can be saved through Christ and the grace of God despite imperfect knowledge and teaching. Although it is not a sure thing...and I do believe salvation is a back and forth between self and God, they are 2 interlocking puzzle pieces (see below).

Article V: Of the Ministry.

1] That we may obtain this faith, the Ministry of Teaching the Gospel and administering the Sacraments was instituted. For through the Word and Sacraments, as through instruments, 2] the Holy Ghost is given, who works faith; where and when it pleases God, in them that hear 3] the Gospel, to wit, that God, not for our own merits, but for Christ's sake, justifies those who believe that they are received into grace for Christ's sake.

4] They condemn the Anabaptists and others who think that the Holy Ghost comes to men without the external Word, through their own preparations and works.

It's pretty much the same objection as the above. I really don't understand the Holy Spirit much at all, though. It's not that I think salvation comes from works--it is a gift of God through Christ--but works are a sign of those with imperfect understanding that show their seeking out of God and the Good.

Article IX: Of Baptism.

1] Of Baptism they teach that it is necessary 2] to salvation, and that through Baptism is offered the grace of God, and that children are to be baptized who, being offered to God through Baptism are received into God's grace.

3] They condemn the Anabaptists, who reject the baptism of children, and say that children are saved without Baptism.


I'm not really sure what baptism does, but I do believe that children of a certain age are not able to take responsibility for their sins and I believe that God understands that and saves them anyway. I do believe we are commanded to be baptized, and wouldn't rant against infant baptism or anything like that--but I am still having some trouble with the concept of baptizing those who are not yet even capable of being believers--it seems so foreign to me. I think I need to learn more about it.

Article XII: Of Repentance.

1] Of Repentance they teach that for those who have fallen after Baptism there is remission of sins whenever they are converted 2] and that the Church ought to impart absolution to those thus returning to repentance. Now, repentance consists properly of these 3] two parts: One is contrition, that is, 4] terrors smiting the conscience through the knowledge of sin; the other is faith, which is born of 5] the Gospel, or of absolution, and believes that for Christ's sake, sins are forgiven, comforts 6] the conscience, and delivers it from terrors. Then good works are bound to follow, which are the fruits of repentance.

7] They condemn the Anabaptists, who deny that those once justified can lose the Holy Ghost. Also those who contend that some may attain to such 8] perfection in this life that they cannot sin.

I think it is possible to lose your salvation by rejecting God (although not through committing sins).


Article XVIII: Of Free Will.

1] Of Free Will they teach that man's will has some liberty to choose civil righteousness, and to work 2] things subject to reason. But it has no power, without the Holy Ghost, to work the righteousness of God, that is, spiritual righteousness; since the natural man 3] receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, 1 Cor. 2, 14; but this righteousness is wrought in the heart when the Holy Ghost is received 4] through the Word. These things are said in as many words by Augustine in his Hypognosticon, Book III: We grant that all men have a free will, free, inasmuch as it has the judgment of reason; not that it is thereby capable, without God, either to begin, or, at least, to complete aught in things pertaining to God, but only in works of this life, whether good 5] or evil. "Good" I call those works which spring from the good in nature, such as, willing to labor in the field, to eat and drink, to have a friend, to clothe oneself, to build a house, to marry a wife, to raise cattle, to learn divers useful arts, or whatsoever good 6]pertains to this life. For all of these things are not without dependence on the providence of God; yea, of Him and through Him they are and have their being. "Evil" 7] I call such works as willing to worship an idol, to commit murder, etc. 8] They condemn the Pelagians and others, who teach that without the Holy Ghost, by the power of nature alone, we are able to love God above all things; also to do the commandments of God as touching "the substance of the act." For, although nature is able in a manner to do the outward work, 9] (for it is able to keep the hands from theft and murder,) yet it cannot produce the inward motions, such as the fear of God, trust in God, chastity, patience, etc.

I'm not sure about this but I'm pretty sure I don't understand it either.

I think the nature of man is basically dual--that God has given us all, through birth, a deep desire to know Him and know (and do) the Good, and also that we have through our sinful nature a tendency to seek (and do) evil. So we are capable of doing and seeking good and God through our own nature. But because God demands perfection, we have to rely on Him (made possible through the atoning work of Christ) to breach the barrier of our sinful nature in order to access a "relationship" or other spiritual connection to him (in which lies salvation).

[Melethiel]

I think it is possible to lose your salvation by rejecting God (although not through committing sins).

In that case, you agree with what the confession is saying. The wording is a bit murky there, but it seems to me that they are condemning the Anabaptists in that many of them are OSAS.

[Joykins]

Oh, I see. I wonder what else I misread.

I guess the next step is to visit some churches.

[JVAC]

Hello,

I'm not really sure what baptism does, but I do believe that children of a certain age are not able to take responsibility for their sins and I believe that God understands that and saves them anyway. I do believe we are commanded to be baptized, and wouldn't rant against infant baptism or anything like that--but I am still having some trouble with the concept of baptizing those who are not yet even capable of being believers--it seems so foreign to me. I think I need to learn more about it.


Holy Baptism is the sacrament of initiation in to Communion with God and the Holy Church, and makes one a child of God by the power of God. Baptism is not a work wrought by human hands but is solely, in the words of Bonhoeffer, "God coming into the world and laying hands on what is his own." Baptism is God taking us from this world and giving his Holy Ghost to live out these last days. This is a free gift given to all and is unmerited so this gift can be given to those who ask and cannot ask. Children of Christian parents are given this gift in the knowledge of God's love and acceptance of them and the Church welcomes them into the Communion of Saints.

I think it is possible to lose your salvation by rejecting God (although not through committing sins).

The act of rejecting God is a sin. Sin is a rejection of God. All sin is condemning, however, when a sin is confessed and repented from that sin is no longer condemning but washed in the Blood of the Savior. However, all sins that are persistent sins, that one refuses to confess and repent of, mortal sins, are sins that cause eternal death. The Church urges the sinning saint to confession, where God, through the Church, forgives man his sin and bids him, "COME, Follow Me!".

Of free will it is taught that man is completely a sinner and apart from choosing civil righteousness, which is giving a cup of flour to a neighbor or a couple coins to a begar etc., we cannot choose good, which is God. Our will is bound because of original sin that makes man serve himself and not the good that is God. Yet the Holy Ghost gives us that motivation, and we recieve the Holy Ghost only through the Church. The Church gives the Holy Ghost through Word and Sacrament. Thus our free will is bound to only do evil unless the Holy Ghost comes into us and helps us live Godly lives, lives devoted to love and service of God and his people.


I hope this helps explain some of the doctrines you had questions on.

[JVAC]

Hello again,

I originally just wanted to talk about the sacraments you questioned, but this subject has also caught my attention.

I don't disagree with all of this but I do believe that it is possible that people of other religions who truly seek God and the Good but do not properly understand Jesus Christ can be saved through Christ and the grace of God despite imperfect knowledge and teaching. Although it is not a sure thing...and I do believe salvation is a back and forth between self and God, they are 2 interlocking puzzle pieces (see below).

First, the condemnation is of the teaching and not their souls. We as orthodox Christians condemn all heresies, and it is up to God to judge the Heretics. And we condemn heresies only with the Word and not with external force. We use the Word of God as given by the Holy Apostles and safeguarded in the Church by the Church. That is why Lutheran confessions use the Holy Scriptures and support them with the testimony of the Church Fathers. It is this testimony that the Augsburg Confession expounds and it is with the authority of the Church that it does so. We condemn new, inovative heresies that have never been taught by Jesus or His Apostles, we condemn them as unorthodox and not in keeping with the Church's living tradition. Yet we pass no judgement over their souls, we reserve that right for the one who earned it and will come again in glory.

[filosofer]

I think the nature of man is basically dual--that God has given us all, through birth, a deep desire to know Him and know (and do) the Good, and also that we have through our sinful nature a tendency to seek (and do) evil. So we are capable of doing and seeking good and God through our own nature. But because God demands perfection, we have to rely on Him (made possible through the atoning work of Christ) to breach the barrier of our sinful nature in order to access a "relationship" or other spiritual connection to him (in which lies salvation).


Howdy. Welcome to a fruitful study. If I may, consider reading Article IV (Justification) in the Apology of the Augsburg Confession - perhaps the finest statement about faith, God's work, and the results.

Regarding sinful nature, consider the following:

Psalm 51:5

Romans 3:10-18 (quoting Psalm 14, 5, 140, 10, 36 and Isaiah 59)

Romans 8:7 (the mind of the flesh does not subject itself to the law of God, nor is it even not able to)

Ephesians 2:1 - spiritually dead and unable to anything about it - note in 2:4-5 that is God who makes a live, not the person herself.

Philippians 3:9 There are only two kinds of righteousness: God's received through faith, my own sinful, self-righteousness derived from the Law. Only the first saves.

Just a few to ponder.

Also, have you ever noticed that you never have to teach children how to misbehave? Sin affects every person. And there is no passage in Scripture that supports the idea that God overlooks sin, whether inherited sin nature, or sinful acts - both are equally condemning.

Blessings on your continued study.

[Joykins]

The Church urges the sinning saint to confession, where God, through the Church, forgives man his sin and bids him, "COME, Follow Me!".

Why is it God, through the Church? Why not just God, through Christ? My understanding that if forgiveness is conditional upon anything, those things are confession (to God), repentance, and forgiving others. Restitution as applicable is also a sign of contrition.

How is confession practiced in the Lutheran churches? The Augsburg confession speaks of general confession. How is this done in practice?

Of free will it is taught that man is completely a sinner and apart from choosing civil righteousness, which is giving a cup of flour to a neighbor or a couple coins to a begar etc., we cannot choose good, which is God. Our will is bound because of original sin that makes man serve himself and not the good that is God. Yet the Holy Ghost gives us that motivation, and we recieve the Holy Ghost only through the Church. The Church gives the Holy Ghost through Word and Sacrament. Thus our free will is bound to only do evil unless the Holy Ghost comes into us and helps us live Godly lives, lives devoted to love and service of God and his people.

I believe that God created man good ("and God saw that it was good"), so virtue lies in the very core of humanity as well as sin. It comes from God but it is also part of our creation and very nature. God created nothing intrinsically evil, only good (Genesis 1) so any evil has to come from perverting the good. Original sin means that our sinning is inevitable. Free will means that we can either seek God or seek evil. However, we are not capable of abandoning all sins completely and reaching a connection to God by our own means, they are not completely sufficient because of our sins; that is why we need Christ.

Obviously I also need to learn more about the Holy Spirit as well because I don't feel I understand that at all except it is the means by which God connects to us now. I think I probably overemphasize God as Creator and Christ in my personal theology. Any good references?

[SPALATIN]

Why is it God, through the Church? Why not just God, through Christ? My understanding that if forgiveness is conditional upon anything, those things are confession (to God), repentance, and forgiving others. Restitution as applicable is also a sign of contrition.

It is both. Joykins, we see the church as Christ's bride. In scripture, the constant use through out the new testament of a groom to his bride is used to illustrate Christ's relationship to his church. Jesus is God, just as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Church is how Christ reaches us with his word and sacrament. But Church is not confined to a building, but where believers congregate together.

How is confession practiced in the Lutheran churches? The Augsburg confession speaks of general confession. How is this done in practice?

What kind of confession are we speaking of here? Confession of Sins or Confession of Faith?

Confession of sin is done in the liturgy when we as a congregation confess together that we are miserable sinners and that we don't deserve God's love by our own deeds and will, but that through Christ who died for us has mercy on us and forgives us our sins so that we may by his will have eternal life.

We are then granted absolution based on our confession. Some Lutheran Pastors will also take private confession as well.

Confession of Faith is practiced in the Creeds (Nicene and Apostles) as well as coming to the table for the Sacrament of the Altar (Holy Communion).



I believe that God created man good ("and God saw that it was good"), so virtue lies in the very core of humanity as well as sin. It comes from God but it is also part of our creation and very nature. God created nothing intrinsically evil, only good (Genesis 1) so any evil has to come from perverting the good. Original sin means that our sinning is inevitable. Free will means that we can either seek God or seek evil. However, we are not capable of abandoning all sins completely and reaching a connection to God by our own means, they are not completely sufficient because of our sins; that is why we need Christ.

He may have created him good, but he gave him a free will to make his own choices. Adam chose to disobey God's command not to eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was at this time that evil perverted the good and from that time to the time of Christ man has not had any remote goodness of himself remaining in his heart. Original Sin is born in each of us. When we are baptized into the name of the triune God we are forgiven that sin and the are given the grace and faith that come with the Baptismal promise. Only then are we able to grow in admonition of the Lord through his word and Sacrament.



Obviously I also need to learn more about the Holy Spirit as well because I don't feel I understand that at all except it is the means by which God connects to us now. I think I probably overemphasize God as Creator and Christ in my personal theology. Any good references?

Join the club. We all need to learn more about the Holy Spirit. If I can find some good references I will post them on this thread for you.

Pax Christi

[Joykins]

Confession of sin is done in the liturgy when we as a congregation confess together that we are miserable sinners and that we don't deserve God's love by our own deeds and will, but that through Christ who died for us has mercy on us and forgives us our sins so that we may by his will have eternal life.

We are then granted absolution based on our confession. Some Lutheran Pastors will also take private confession as well.

Thanks, that's what I was asking. I was wondering if private confession was required or common practice; or whether it was done en masse during the liturgy.

Confession of Faith is practiced in the Creeds (Nicene and Apostles) as well as coming to the table for the Sacrament of the Altar (Holy Communion).

This is interesting. I was talking to my husband about these things, and asked him if there was anything that he would find a "dealbreaker" about joining a new church. He expressed some concern about the Apostle's Creed--the phrase "descended into hell." He believes that is unscriptural and is not sure he believes it. Do Lutherans use that wording? I have also heard "descended into the grave." (Do remember he was brought up Baptist and they never use creeds!)


He may have created him good, but he gave him a free will to make his own choices. Adam chose to disobey God's command not to eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. It was at this time that evil perverted the good and from that time to the time of Christ man has not had any remote goodness of himself remaining in his heart.

That seems as if it were saying that evil is more powerful than good, in that it can obliterate the good in God's creation. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. Rather than "debate" here maybe I'll start a thread in general theology about Original sin so maybe I can learn more.

[SPALATIN]

That seems as if it were saying that evil is more powerful than good, in that it can obliterate the good in God's creation. But perhaps I'm misunderstanding it. Rather than "debate" here maybe I'll start a thread in general theology about Original sin so maybe I can learn more.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is more powerful. In Luther's small catechism under the heading of the creed he gives explanations of each article. Under the 3rd article of the Apostle's creed which reads:

I believe in the Holy Ghost; one holy Christian Church, the communion of saints; the forgiveness of sins; the resurrection of the body; and the life everlasting. Amen.

What does this mean?--Answer.

I believe that I cannot by my own reason or strength believe in Jesus Christ, my Lord, or come to Him; but the Holy Ghost has called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, sanctified and kept me in the true faith; even as He calls, gathers, enlightens, and sanctifies the whole Christian Church on earth, and keeps it with Jesus Christ in the one true faith; in which Christian Church He forgives daily and richly all sins to me and all believers, and at the last day will raise up me and all the dead, and will give to me and to all believers in Christ everlasting life. This is most certainly true.

I think this best explains the plight of original sin and our relationship to Christ through the Holy Spirit.

Before we are called by the Holy Spirit through Baptism we are dead in our sins. We do not seek after him on our own free will because our free will was tainted by original sin and therefore we only reject God. So it is through hearing Gods word (Romans 10:17) that we essentially are first called to faith.

[filosofer]

I believe that God created man good ("and God saw that it was good"), so virtue lies in the very core of humanity as well as sin. It comes from God but it is also part of our creation and very nature. God created nothing intrinsically evil, only good (Genesis 1) so any evil has to come from perverting the good. Original sin means that our sinning is inevitable. Free will means that we can either seek God or seek evil. However, we are not capable of abandoning all sins completely and reaching a connection to God by our own means, they are not completely sufficient because of our sins; that is why we need Christ.


The problem relates to understanding the condition of humans. Biblically there are four "eras" (not related to dispensations!)

Prior to Fall: Adam and Eve were created perfect and had free will. In that free will they were tempted and sinned.

After Fall, prior to Conversion: After the fall into sin every person is born with inherited sin from Adam (and Eve) (Romans 5:12). This also means that no one has free will. The sinful human naturally inclines toward evil, Romans 8:7. The confusion arises here, because we can do "right/good things" in the eyes of the world (called civil righteousness), but toward God we are in rebellion. Sometimes we mistake the civil righteousness with the righteousness that God demands or credits to us. According to Phil 3:9 there are only two kinds of righteousness: my own, civil righteousness - also mentioned by the goats in Matthew 25:31-45, and God's righteousness lived out in Christ and credited to our account and received by faith.

After conversion, before Heaven: At this point the person now struggles with the sinful human inclination and the Spirit-created faith - the struggle of Romans 7 that Paul discusses ("The things I want to do, the things I don't want to do, I do"). Still not free will, but Spirit-given ability in faith to battle against the sinful nature.

In Heaven: No free will. Everyone in heaven is confirmed in doing exactly what God desires. Not chance of sinning like Adam and Eve.



Obviously I also need to learn more about the Holy Spirit as well because I don't feel I understand that at all except it is the means by which God connects to us now. I think I probably overemphasize God as Creator and Christ in my personal theology. Any good references?


1 Corinthians 1-2, John 14-16, Luke-Acts, Romans 5-8 make for a good strting point in this investigation.

[JVAC]

Hey,

Nice reply!

Why is it God, through the Church? Why not just God, through Christ? My understanding that if forgiveness is conditional upon anything, those things are confession (to God), repentance, and forgiving others. Restitution as applicable is also a sign of contrition.

First when I was writing I was kinda just assuming the entire trinity when I wrote God, but that was probably my fault. Scott said it right when he talked about Christ's bride, but there is even more here. Christ commanded the Church to forgive sins in what is known as "The Office of the Keys". In Matthew, chapter 16, Christ gave St Peter the keys and told him that what he loosed will be loosed, or bound would be bound. This ministry of reconciliation is important in the Church and anyone who desires this forgiveness is never turned away. St. John's record of the Gospel has a similar account where the Lord Jesus gives this authority to all the Apostles. So in essence it is through Christ that the Church forgives the contrite heart it's sins, and that is why the minister says, "As a called and ordained minister of the Church of God, and by His authority, I therefore declare to you the entire forgiveness of all your sins, in the name of the Father, and of the Son+, and of the Holy Ghost."

I believe that God created man good ("and God saw that it was good"), so virtue lies in the very core of humanity as well as sin. It comes from God but it is also part of our creation and very nature. God created nothing intrinsically evil, only good (Genesis 1) so any evil has to come from perverting the good. Original sin means that our sinning is inevitable. Free will means that we can either seek God or seek evil. However, we are not capable of abandoning all sins completely and reaching a connection to God by our own means, they are not completely sufficient because of our sins; that is why we need Christ.

The way you phrased this is more of an Eastern Orthodox stance. However, the catholic belief is that Man is made a sinner through the reproach of his parents, Adam and Eve. Psalm 51:5 is the most blatant about this (I can site numerous more Scripture and Patristics) wherein it is said, "Surely I was sinful from the moment I was conceived." Man is lost in Sin, and is never innocent. It is a Lutheran doctrine that this sinfulness makes man choose sin, like an alchoholic choosing another drink, it is frome the intervention that someone is given this gift a seeing their life, the Holy Ghost is this intervention, God coming into us and counseling us. That is what the Holy Ghost is (Paracletos) advocate/counselor, the Holy Ghost is God who comes to us to help us live holy lives, through intercessory prayer, through conscience, through communion, and through many other devices.

Obviously I also need to learn more about the Holy Spirit as well because I don't feel I understand that at all except it is the means by which God connects to us now. I think I probably overemphasize God as Creator and Christ in my personal theology. Any good references?

What would you like? References on: The Most Holy Trinity, Holy Ghost, Jesus, etc?

Thanks for this reply and if you have further questions don't be afraid to share them.

:liturgy:
-James