A Question about Scripture

[Knowledge3]

This has been on my mind the past couple weeks.

I went a to Bible study, and I had been studying Timothy for several hours before that, I made a statement before the study began, that Jesus has not yet returned, and the 2nd resurrection has not happened yet. I got quite the reaction, and I don't know why.

I was speaking from a perspective found in scripture. I had no choice but to back my views up with scripture, because with me, scripture presides over dogma.

John 17:11


The are quite a few references to Jesus ascending and leaving the world, He also said that it was for our good he was going away.So the Counselor & Holy Spirit could come at Pentecost.

2 Timothy 2:18


I realize that God is present and Holy Spirit verifies that, but I wanted to know why was no distinction able to be made between Jesus himself, and the presence of the Holy Spirit.Because if Jesus himself is present, you definitely notice , or is this something that is a gift?

[Knowledge3]

So no one is going to help me out??

[filosofer]

So no one is going to help me out??

I can't speak for others, but....

Some of us work full-time, and for me that means minimum 10 1/2 hours, plus evening writing, which includes a book that has to be completed by mid-September and writing doctrinal position papers, and playing grandpa to four grandkids, and they are all moving in with us this weekend, so we have been rearranging our entire life/surroundings/bedrooms/etc....

In other words, responding in less than two hours to a question is often impossible, unless I happen to be online, and even then, it may not be something I want to tackle at the moment.

So, we may not be intentionally ignoring you, it may not even have anything to do with your question.

BTW, As I was writing this, two of the grandkids showed up, and one is staying overnight, so my intention to write a response has to wait - my grandson's game has higher priority (he's going on 11, and this is a delightful age - prior to his teens). Sorry.

[KagomeShuko]

I'm not exactly sure why you'd get that reaction, either. I don't know how they'd think Jesus had already returned as a "second coming" rather than just his "appearance" after rising from the dead but before ascending.

I've been thinking about it. Yes, even I have a life outside of CF. . .even off of the Internet. . .believe it or not! You know, there are times I may think about one of these questions for three days straight. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[PraetorTemplar]

I would help u if i could but i dont know what the second resurection is , i only know of the resurection affter the tree days in the thomb and the second comeing that happens at the end of days ?

tell me of this second resurection

[Protoevangel]

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
- Hebrews 9:27-28

Jesus came once, and will return again, at the end of the age. No "other" returns are spoken of.

"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

[Knowledge3]

I'm not exactly sure why you'd get that reaction, either. I don't know how they'd think Jesus had already returned as a "second coming" rather than just his "appearance" after rising from the dead but before ascending.

I think there was just a misunderstanding from the person I said it to. He was quite astonished at the next thing came out of my mouth, which was my favorite quotation scripture in Ephesians .. :priest:

They misunderstood me, I was referring to Jesus Christ in full presence in Heaven. -Not- that the Holy Ghost wouldn't be present in our time on Earth.


I've been thinking about it. Yes, even I have a life outside of CF. . .even off of the Internet. . .believe it or not! You know, there are times I may think about one of these questions for three days straight. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

Luke 11.28
He replied, "Blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it."


Cool.

Grace abounds in the Lutheran Faith. K3

[ctobola]

With whom were you having this Bible study?

There are a number of groups -- admittedly fringe groups -- who believe that Christ has returned in some form.

-Cloy

This has been on my mind the past couple weeks.
I went a to Bible study, and I had been studying Timothy for several hours before that, I made a statement before the study began, that Jesus has not yet returned, and the 2nd resurrection has not happened yet. I got quite the reaction, and I don't know why.
...snip...

[Knowledge3]

I can't speak for others, but....

Some of us work full-time, and for me that means minimum 10 1/2 hours, plus evening writing, which includes a book that has to be completed by mid-September and writing doctrinal position papers, and playing grandpa to four grandkids, and they are all moving in with us this weekend, so we have been rearranging our entire life/surroundings/bedrooms/etc....

In other words, responding in less than two hours to a question is often impossible, unless I happen to be online, and even then, it may not be something I want to tackle at the moment.

So, we may not be intentionally ignoring you, it may not even have anything to do with your question.

BTW, As I was writing this, two of the grandkids showed up, and one is staying overnight, so my intention to write a response has to wait - my grandson's game has higher priority (he's going on 11, and this is a delightful age - prior to his teens). Sorry.



Hello Filo, don't worry, I think I got it settled. Hope you have fun with your grandchildren...To be honest, this the first forum I have found on the internet where I could fellowship with real Lutherans.

I truly believe that Jesus Christ of Nazareth is coming back for Judgement Day. To make a long story short,, in my clear concscience, I have had overwhelming and prophetic visions from Jesus Christ.

:bow: Jesus, My God, I respect you and recieve you as my Savior. Lord, please bless my holy communion with you next sunday at church, your humble servant. K3 Amen

[LutherNut]

Hi all. I'm new to the board here, but I will take a stab at this...

As I have been taught to understand it, the "first death" is our death to sin at our Baptism. The first resurrection is also at our Baptism when we are united with Christ's resurrection, as in Romans 6:5. The second resurrection is that which occurs on the Last Day when Jesus returns as in 1 Thessalonians 4. The second death is eternal death, eternal separation from God, which happens to those apart from faith in Jesus, as in Revelation 21:8. Those who are Baptized into Christ's death and resurrection are saved from the second death, as Revelation 20:6 tells us, "The second death has no power over them."

Does this help?

[Knowledge3]

With whom were you having this Bible study?

Why did you assume that I would have Bible study with some other group, in my first found Lutheran Forum?

This Bible study was enacted on my own with no motives whatsoever.


There are a number of groups -- admittedly fringe groups -- who believe that Christ has returned in some form.
-Cloy

Are you serious? In what what or how??, be cool if you have the links.

[LutherNut]

I think that the 7th Day Adventists believe that He returned... like in 1914 or something like that.

I dunno... I'm not an expert in the SDA's.

[Knowledge3]

I think that the 7th Day Adventists believe that He returned... like in 1914 or something like that.

I dunno... I'm not an expert in the SDA's.


The SDA's are the Seventh Day Adventists???

What are their teachings and doctrinal beliefs like?

I could really get this forum heated up in debate. ;)

[Knowledge3]

"And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation."
- Hebrews 9:27-28

Jesus came once, and will return again, at the end of the age. No "other" returns are spoken of.

Agreed. And what about the Rapture? Do we as Lutherans believe in the Rapture concept?? I haven't really studied the "Rapture Theology" yet.

Isaiah 50:1
Then all mankind will know, that I, the Lord, am your Savior, yourReedemer,the Mighty One of Jacob.



"Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4

Agreed DanHead,... :)

[Protoevangel]

Agreed. And what about the Rapture? Do we as Lutherans believe in the Rapture concept?? I haven't really studied the "Rapture Theology" yet.

Isaiah 50:1
Then all mankind will know, that I, the Lord, am your Savior, yourReedemer,the Mighty One of Jacob.




Agreed DanHead,... :)
Interesting that you mention the Rature.

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:17

"Caught up" here is from the Greek "harpazo", which is, in turn "rapturo" in Latin. So, yes, Lutherans believe in the Rapture.

Now, we do not believe in what you probably think of as "Rapture Theology", as is common in American neo-evangelicalism. The Rapture is on the last day.

[MORTANIUS]

Maybe you got a reaction because they were actually Jehovahs Witnesses! LOL

[LutherNut]

I think that the 7th Day Adventists believe that He returned... like in 1914 or something like that.

I dunno... I'm not an expert in the SDA's.

I did a little reading and it seems I was a bit confused, but I think I got it straight now.

The SDA's believe in the "investigative return" of Christ (although not a physical return) that began in 1844.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Satan was expelled from heaven in 1914, an event which triggered the start of WWI. They also hold that Jesus has been reigning over the earth on His heavenly throne since 1914, but will never actually reign on the earth... or something like that. I'm not an expert on the JW's either.

The Nut

[MORTANIUS]

I did a little reading and it seems I was a bit confused, but I think I got it straight now.

The SDA's believe in the "investigative return" of Christ (although not a physical return) that began in 1844.

The Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Satan was expelled from heaven in 1914, an event which triggered the start of WWI. They also hold that Jesus has been reigning over the earth on His heavenly throne since 1914, but will never actually reign on the earth... or something like that. I'm not an expert on the JW's either.

The Nut

lol I don't think even a Jehovahs Witness is an "expert" in their own beliefs. If they were, they would clearly see that Jehovah is never mentioned in the Bible. They would also realize that the Archangel Michael is not Jesus in the Revelation. Furthermore, they would of realized the lies of all the predictions that the Jehovahs Witness' made.

So far the "second coming" has already taken place three (some say four) times.

Dooms Day fear tactics make up the core beliefs of Jehovahs Witnesses.

Its sad that they disguise their teachings with the label of Christianity, but they teach some very non-christian things.

[KagomeShuko]

I think that the 7th Day Adventists believe that He returned... like in 1914 or something like that.

I dunno... I'm not an expert in the SDA's.

Hey, you know, there is now an SDA forum here ;) You can ask theology questions there.

I can give you a quick account of what they believe with this whole "second coming" thing, though.

A group of Seventh-Day Baptists first believed that Jesus Christ was going to return in (October, I think) 1844. On that day, they gathered, and Christ did not return as they had expected. The SDAs refer to this as "The Great Disappointment."

However, they say that it was on this day in 1844 that Christ entered the Holy of Holies in heaven. They don't believe that happened when he ascended as other denominations do.

Now, they believe that Christ will return for a second time, that we are living in the end days (I think we are supposedly living in the times of the sixth or seventh seal already by what they teach - a lot of which is false even by science, so it's definitely not true - such as the biggest meteor shower. . .there's scientific evidence to the contrary.)

Then, on death, they teach "soul sleep." They don't think anybody's soul (er, spirit) goes to heaven when they die. They think everybody is literally asleep in the ground and will only be raised when Christ comes again.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[filosofer]

lol I don't think even a Jehovahs Witness is an "expert" in their own beliefs. If they were, they would clearly see that Jehovah is never mentioned in the Bible.


Well, sort of. In the KJV there are seven times that the Tetragrammaton is translated as [i]Jehovah. Most Biblical scholars believe that in the Hebrew text the consonants are from YHWH (or phonetically the same JHVH) from the Exodus 3:14 incident ("I am who I am"; and see Exodus 5:22-6:8), and the vowels come from the Hebrew word ADONAI. Combining them into one word yields Jehovah. Most today would say that while we don't know exactly how to pronounce the Tetragrammaton, its most likely pronunciation is somewhat like Yahweh.

[Knowledge3]

Interesting that you mention the Rature.

"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."
- 1 Thessalonians 4:17

"Caught up" here is from the Greek "harpazo", which is, in turn "rapturo" in Latin. So, yes, Lutherans believe in the Rapture.

Now, we do not believe in what you probably think of as "Rapture Theology", as is common in American neo-evangelicalism. The Rapture is on the last day.

Hmm.. I was thinking along the same guidelines. But wouldn't this "Rapture" somehow be in cohesive agreement with these spoken words by Jesus?

Matthew 24.64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. But I say to all of you: in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Wouldn't that somehow be the "Rapture" and the "Judgement" at the same time????

Father, in Your Name, I humbly pray and ask you give me and the Lutheran brethen and special and blessed communion this sunday. Your Servant, K3

Amen.

[Knowledge3]

Well, sort of. In the KJV there are seven times that the Tetragrammaton is translated as [i]Jehovah. Most Biblical scholars believe that in the Hebrew text the consonants are from YHWH (or phonetically the same JHVH) from the Exodus 3:14 incident ("I am who I am"; and see Exodus 5:22-6:8), and the vowels come from the Hebrew word ADONAI. Combining them into one word yields Jehovah. Most today would say that while we don't know exactly how to pronounce the Tetragrammaton, its most likely pronunciation is somewhat like Yahweh.



Well, my current cohesive spiritual relationship with Jesus is El Shaddai.

[Knowledge3]

Revisement of the OP

As I wrote in the OP, God is in heaven.I don't mean to scare anyone with my teaching, but I have no choice to write it down. This is my first attempt to explain the Nature of God in the form of the one true God, and the Holy Trinity. God never changes, His nature always remains the same, but God can make Himself known in different ways and facets. I cannot even begin to explain how mysterious and awe-inspiring Jehovah-Rapha is.

Jeremiah 23.23-24

"Am I only a God nearby,"
declares the LORD,
"and not a God far away?
"Can anyone hide in secret places
so that I cannot see him?"
declares the LORD.
"Do I not fill heaven and earth?"
declares the LORD.

This my interpretation, and translation of the passage. God, as Creator, can be present in one place, and see all that goes on in another.

I believe that anyone who willfully teaches what I corrected in the first OP, about the resurrection already taking place and that Jesus has already come, and the resurrection has already happened is in serious doctrinal error.

If we reflect on Jesus' words of I am the resurrection and the life, Jesus is making reference to Himself as Savior. He can be present in our spirits and hearts while we are alive and breathing in the form of the Holy Ghost. But I make a clear distinction between the common saying that "God is here" with such complacency said by so many teachers on the pulpit. My teaching is becoming more authoritative. My goal is correct and fine-tune some common misconceptions about God to strengthen your faith by creating some understanding between these important aspects about the Nature of God.

The Spirit of Jesus mentioned in Acts, is what blinded Paul in the form of revelation on his way to Damascus. There is a sharp contrast between several aspects of the Nature of God.

In the Old Testament, when we read the Scripture about "How the Spirit of the Lord came upon Joshua,, that is Almighty God interfering with your volition and doing with you as God pleases. The same concept carries over into God dealing with Elijah, or Moses. I really like this character called Elijah, because He was a man that represented God's humor at times, by making fun of the the people that worshipped idols in the Old Testament. But on the other hand God is real serious and commanding. All God wants us to do is to revere Him and follow His law.

That is what makes the Savior that God Himself sent to suffer the horrible and painful death on the Cross. Jesus, as Savior, who comes from the Father, full of Grace and Truth, is the One who understands us as humans in our weaknesses. I know for some people, it is hard for them to understand God, and I understand how it is sometimes fearful and hand-trembling, but I had to bear down and get right with God. In the end, God's grace and love always prevails. That is what my purpose is as Lutheran, to be Jesus' servant in humility and humbleness.

1 John 3
Everyone who has hope in him purifies himseld, just as he is pure.

1 John 27
As for you, the anointing you recieved from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit--just as it has taught you, remain in him.

In Christ, K3 :priest:

[C.F.W. Walther]

So how many aspects of God, ie El-Shadi, Elohiem, Yahweh, Jehoveh Rapha-is etc. do you worship/recognize? It seems they are all just the aspects of GOd and not differant parts of him. After all there is only the trinity. I looked at a book onetime that said he had something like 57 differant attributes/names. Seems like some people are grasping at straws or making something out of nothing.

[LutherNut]

Hmm.. I was thinking along the same guidelines. But wouldn't this "Rapture" somehow be in cohesive agreement with these spoken words by Jesus?

Matthew 24.64
"Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. But I say to all of you: in the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."

Wouldn't that somehow be the "Rapture" and the "Judgement" at the same time????

Father, in Your Name, I humbly pray and ask you give me and the Lutheran brethen and special and blessed communion this sunday. Your Servant, K3

Amen.


The "Rapture" from 1 Thessalonians 4 and the events of which Jesus speaks in Matthew 24 are in fact the same event. The "Rapture" occurs on the Last Day. The Son of Man returns in the clouds and the dead in Christ shall rise and we (believers) who are alive at the time will also be "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air, much like the maidens who go out to meet the bridegroom and accompany him to the wedding feast. And the King on His Throne will say to those on His right "Come. Inherit the Kingdom prepared for you since the foundation of the world."


Jay

[Knowledge3]

So how many aspects of God, ie El-Shadi, Elohiem, Yahweh, Jehoveh Rapha-is etc. do you worship/recognize? It seems they are all just the aspects of GOd and not differant parts of him. After all there is only the trinity. I looked at a book onetime that said he had something like 57 differant attributes/names. Seems like some people are grasping at straws or making something out of nothing.

God's wisdom is profound, and keeps me on my toes. The more I grow in Christ, the more profound my perception of God gets. When God acts, it is usually a permanent occasion, but sometimes in my human mind, I have a hard time understanding certain aspects.

I haven't actually had any formal training or taken a seminary course. Part of what people teach in seminaries comes naturally to me, and alot of the stuff people learn are structured and meant to produce a specific outcome or understanding about the scriptures. Paul wrote, knowledge puffs up but love builds up.

10 teachers teaching, would easily be divided up by me as one person.

Because I get to a point of meditation where I block out everything else in order to focus solely on Christ. I sometimes, hear a holy type chanting/praying coming from somewhere.

It is like my inner voice is resonating to/from somewhere else in the world.

I would like to find that place.

I can't stress the point enough to read the psalms and meditate on them.

One of these days, I am going experience something great from the amount of time I spend meditating the scriptures and contemplating God. I am thankful to be a Christian and to be able to even come close to understanding. God has great things in store for those who earnestly seek Him and teach His word.