Fed up with Church

[Shannonkish]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.

[Wisdom's Child]

Sounds to me that your looking for THE CHURCH, and are tired of attending that weekend entertainment venue.

They are out there, just keep looking...

[M Paul]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.


Well, first I assume you are with or endorsing the house church movement, and you want this type church to accomplish these objectives you set out. Funny, about an hour before I read your post, I was sitting and writing out as specifically as I could what should the real objectives of the church be, so that I could apply them to the manner of functioning of the movement. My objectives were like the ones you mentioned.

So, would you mind, could you make some suggestions on how you think we in the movement can change things, be more concerned with hurting people, get more involved in the community. I have a lot of initial ideas, but they are not developed. However, an exchange of ideas on this matter might prove to be most helpful.

Regards,

Paul

[GraceMan]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.


I agree with this statement. What people call church should be a spiritual hospital, but it's not. It's more like a social event where people come to gather and want others to see how spiritual they are. I also agree that the people are fake, thus I don't go to "church".

~G-Man

[New_Wineskin]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.


I wouldn't want a group that was into a lot of things . At least , I wouldn't want them to be into a lot of things in which they needed many of the people in the group to be involved . That was a huge problem in a previous group in which I was involved . Someone would have an idea but that idea needed many people for it to be accomplished properly . In another group in which I was involved , each person knew that they were free to persue any and every program that they could . But , it was their own desire - not the group's . If the Lord was leading them to do something , that is great . They wouldn't expect many of the people in the group to share their vision or desires .

[Deiesous]

My friend, I know exactly what you mean. Fake smiles, people yelling out meaningless blabber in "toungues", Waving their hands just so that the people will notice and coughing (loudly) when the collection plate is being passed with a crisp Benjamin. I HATE IT!!!:mad:
But that's not church! Thats legalistic pharisee-freaks in need of help. Church is a communion of God's vessels :groupray: with only One Person in mind: and thats the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (Yeah thats grammatically correct). It's good that you can distinguish worship of God from worship of man, but dont say its the church's fault! You and I are part of the Church and we aren't clueing our left hands in! Just keep steady in the faith, hope, love, and the ressurection of Our Bridegroom above: Jesus Christ!:amen:

[SNPete]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.
The "finding the right Church issue is one that I have been dealing for years. For myself the issue was settled when I decided that having my list of requirements for the right church meant nothing to God. It was when I said "I give up God, lead me to your choice" that I was set free fom disappointment. Why? Because I was led to a church that was not of my chosing. Not even close, but it felt so right. And it was! :amen:

In your post it appears that you have legitimate issues for being unhappy. I see no reason to not change churches. The question is where does God want you to be? It looks like you have a burden for the less fortunate and to be in a church where people are real. Good reasons for a change.

Pray for God to lead you to the church of His choosing for you. A Church, just for you, as it were. Just my humble opinion. Pete.

[Count]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.


Of course you are tired dear sister, as the majority of christians are, but you also are looking for a church which my sound good to our ears, only to understand after many years that you are tired again.

If I were you, I would look for a church that has one and only one principle. A church that is leaded by the Lord. A church that Her intention is to see what the Lord is doing and do only what the Lord does. That is the church. If you find that kind of church, you will find yourself doing much more than all the so-called churches do, by just resting in the Lord. Remember, it is the Lord who does the real work, not us, but we christians don't let Him do His own work, because we come up with our own ideas and try to do His work with our own strength, ideas, cleverness, etc,only to understand after many, many strugling years that we have been building with an earthly material and that we are really exhausted.

May the Lord enlighten you and make you see the real church, who by the way has not set names, doctrines etc. That church has only a Doctrine, and that Doctrine is an indwelling Person, and that Person dwells in you and has made you totally holy.

[Count]

Well, first I assume you are with or endorsing the house church movement, and you want this type church to accomplish these objectives you set out. Funny, about an hour before I read your post, I was sitting and writing out as specifically as I could what should the real objectives of the church be, so that I could apply them to the manner of functioning of the movement. My objectives were like the ones you mentioned.

So, would you mind, could you make some suggestions on how you think we in the movement can change things, be more concerned with hurting people, get more involved in the community. I have a lot of initial ideas, but they are not developed. However, an exchange of ideas on this matter might prove to be most helpful.

Regards,

Paul

If you are going to try to change things in any movement, you are doing nothing but hurt others and cause others hurt you. The only thing you need is a New Wineskin for the New Wine. Unfortunately the New Wine cannot be hold by an old Wineskin and if you see the need of changing things, it means that this movement is an old wineskin.

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

I don't think it's against the Forum rules for me to link a CF forum here... I
've been asking about Emergent Chruch (movement, not a specific church!) it's about Bottom-up, not Top-down (that's not supposed to sound rude!) jump here if u wish...
http://www.christianforums.com/t1985333-emergent-church.html

flan out

[No Swansong]

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[New_Wineskin]

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But do we go to church to watch others or for more important reasons like hearing the word or God preached? Carmen once had a cute little song in which the lyrics go "keep your eyes on the Creator man, and not on His creation" While he was specifically refering to lust it is applicable here too. Too many times have I gone to church and noticed what Sr. so and so was doing and not listening to the message coming from the man of God in the pulpit.


That would be one of the *last* reasons for my meeting with my siblings . I can read the Scriptures for myself . I don't need a pulpiteer .



Many times I have believed the same thing, only to realize that I thought it was meaningless banter because I disagreed with it.


No reason to be listening to someone with whom one disagrees unless there is equal time for all to bring in their thoughts .


Often times (and I am not saying that you fit this example, again I do not know you) those of us who complain the most, do the least. I have known more than a few individuals who will complain at the top of their lungs that something must be changed and yet are the last ones to offer any real support. It is one thing to cry out for more community involvement, it is entirely something else to be the one who actually does the work.
So I would take this opportunity to ask all of us, What have we done. If something is not right, what have we done to correct it. How have we spread the Gospel and the Love of God today?


When people are brought into the mindset that only one or two people are allowed to share their thoughts during a meeting ( your man at the pulpit ) , there should be no reason to think that people should be thinking in terms of that last section . In fact , many "leaders" don't want that type of thinking because it could lead people into an understanding that they can be led by the Lord and their own function ( as it is perceived ) is diminished . Which should be no problem for someone desiring growth in people and not desiring that their own position to be exalted .

[No Swansong]

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[mortsmune]

Sure, I go to church. But really, I am tired of church. I am tired of fake people pretending to be madly in love with Christ. I am tired of meaningless banter. Church doesn't seem to change anything. I want an active church. A church more concerned about hurting people than with those in the congregation. I want a church that has more social action than clubs and pasttimes for the same people that sit in the pews. I want a church that cares about the world not a church that bring a missionary in once a month to tell of their journeys. I want a church that actually gets involved in the community... one that doesn't wait to be called upon to help but that provides help before people realize they need help.
I go to a church where the pastor subscribes to the view that people are the church. You don't go to church; you are the church. When someone in the congregation tells our pastor that such and such a thing needs to be done or we should be doing more of such and such, he tells them to go ahead and start such and such ministry. It is amazing how much ministry can take place in a community with this approach. The pastor offers help and advice to people, but the ones who have a burden for a certain thing are the ones that do it.

[No Swansong]

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[No Swansong]

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[Shannonkish]

But do we go to church to watch others or for more important reasons like hearing the word or God preached? Carmen once had a cute little song in which the lyrics go "keep your eyes on the Creator man, and not on His creation" While he was specifically refering to lust it is applicable here too. Too many times have I gone to church and noticed what Sr. so and so was doing and not listening to the message coming from the man of God in the pulpit.

I go to church for fellowship with the body, accountability, challenge. If the people are fake, these things don't exsist for me.

The Church is the body of believers, so if Church isn't changing anything then somebody in the body isn't doing what they are supposed to do. As with all things we should examine ourselves first.

I agree with this statement... however, I have noticed that the majority of churches today fall into the category of not changing anything.



two things
What are WE doing for these hurting people?
What makes you think that the people in the pews aren't these hurting people.

Well, I am actually a counselor... So, I work wth hurting people every day. But what I really meant by this was that I am tired of the "ministries" catered specifically to those in the pews... think church basketball team, church fitness club, etc. I think it says something negative about the church when there are more ministries reaching the people already in the church and not enough reaching the people outside the church.



I hope you mean ministry and not social action Nope, I meant social action.



There is nothing wrong with ministering to those in the pews. Indeed many people believe that this is specifically the calling of a pastor; Who should not be confused with an evangelist.

I agree. people in the pews need ministry... however, they also need to be trained up to go out and be involved in ministry. Think Matt. 28:19-20

Often times (and I am not saying that you fit this example, again I do not know you) those of us who complain the most, do the least. I have known more than a few individuals who will complain at the top of their lungs that something must be changed and yet are the last ones to offer any real support. It is one thing to cry out for more community involvement, it is entirely something else to be the one who actually does the work.
So I would take this opportunity to ask all of us, What have we done. If something is not right, what have we done to correct it. How have we spread the Gospel and the Love of God today?


I understand what you are saying and I agree. The first step, however, is to find a church that I don't have to change the hearts of the people in order to do this.

[Shannonkish]

I agree that there is a time and a place for lively debate. I don't agree however that the weekly gathering of the saints is the time and place to do so. Nor do I believe there is a scriptural mandate for challenging a pastor at the time a message is delivered.

Why? I mean if, as you say, church is for understanding scripture, why can' those be hannered out during the "weekly meeting of the saints?" The times I learned the most, and grew closer to God and in fellowship with Christians were actually during my CCLP class. Contemporary Christian Life and Practice was a class I was required to atend. We actually debated lots of topics to try to understand them.

[No Swansong]

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[No Swansong]

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[Shannonkish]

Jt,

I refuse to argue you with you about this. I have stated my thoughts. The End.

[New_Wineskin]

Well New Wineskin it is nice to know that you completely understand scripture and need no help in doing so. I am not so blessed to have such a complete and unaided understanding of scripture.


( I have edited the following since you have made an adjustment in a later post ) .

As you know , I do have an aid - the Holy Spirit . All of His children have His aid .

I do have a problem with people under the idea that one should still need the help of a leader after a year under their leadership . If the leaders are mature and have no need of help in understanding the Scriptures except for the Spirit , and they are to teach others to do the same , why are people under the impression that they always need one . One might think that they intentionally keep the people in infant mode to maintain a flow of money or that they are not qualified for the position in the first place .

I have seen 8o year old men and women who have known the Lord for 60 years having pastors that in their late 20's and knowing the Lord for a little more than 10 years . Something is wrong with this picture .



I agree that there is a time and a place for lively debate. I don't agree however that the weekly gathering of the saints is the time and place to do so. Nor do I believe there is a scriptural mandate for challenging a pastor at the time a message is delivered.


This isn't about a "challenge" . This is about the equality of believers and knowing that each can hear the Lord's voice . It is about mutually edifying each other and sharing the portion that the Lord gives to each .

Why is that one voice to be heard with no chance for others to be heard ? Why , for those that seek "biblical" examples , this is should be unheard of . When the Lord and Paul went to the synagogues , it was common practice to hear from others and then discuss . So , there is more Scriptural basis for discussion than for one lone voice . In fact , there is *no* Scriptural mandate on a reading of the Scriptures during meetings in the first place .



I wouldn't know that there are many leaders who feel the way you believe they do. I have never been part of a Church where the pastor has refused to share the pulpit. I am not even sure I have ever visited a church where the pastor refused to share a pulpit. As a matter of fact at a church I attended for a very long time the Pastor asked at every service if any one had something to share from the Lord. There were wonderful messages delivered. However there were a few times heresy was taught and the person with the message was dismissed. Is it your contention that those teaching heresy should be given a pulpit from which to do so. I know you have not made that claim, but this is the feeling I get from what you posted. If I am off I apologize and welcome your correction.

Here we are again with the "pulpit" . Pulpit this and pulpit that . :doh:


"Heresy" ? Yep . That would keep people from taking the spotlight from those up front . Keep them in fear that *if* they make the slightest error in wording , they can be thrown out of the group ( I understand that this is an exageration of what you are saying but I have known groups like that ) . One might think that discussion amongst people would prevent such a thing instead of allowing it to fester unknown . If people were given the freedom to express themselves as equals and siblings , people would be able to help one another with misunderstandings and tolerate disagreements on matters of little or no importance . There would be a better forum for correcting those who are off the mark in places - coming from a place of love and acceptance as equals .

I don't suggest heresy . Though my mere statement that all believers are equal would brand me as a heretic by many . "Leadership" has been greatly exagerated . Being available for help and guidance is more to what the gifting is about . We are no longer at the foot of the mountain waiting for a specific individual to come back with the Lord's words for all .

I attempted to edit the post to remove any annimosity . My appologies for anything that slipped by . :)

[New_Wineskin]

I go to a church where the pastor subscribes to the view that people are the church. You don't go to church; you are the church. When someone in the congregation tells our pastor that such and such a thing needs to be done or we should be doing more of such and such, he tells them to go ahead and start such and such ministry. It is amazing how much ministry can take place in a community with this approach. The pastor offers help and advice to people, but the ones who have a burden for a certain thing are the ones that do it.

I was involved with a group like that . Soooo much freedom .

I saw so many groups that , as soon as one person had a good idea , it was a group thing . People who didn't have the burden were doing so without the faith of those who had the vision . And , of course , so many projects would come up from these ideas .

Given the freedom to follow the Lord without continual permission from a leader helps growth in so many ways . :)

[Count]

Given the freedom to follow the Lord without continual permission from a leader helps growth in so many ways . :)

Amen! I totally agree with you New_Wineskin. This way the Spirit who dwells within us is not confined.

[New_Wineskin]

I agree . :)

[FLANDIDLYANDERS]

The priesthood of all believers means that God gives us all permission to be like Jesus, and encourage one another to do the same!

Theoretically an entire Church could simply stop all its meetings and see what happens relationally. Theoretically, the things that are so essential to Church - prayer, worship, Great Commision, etc - will naturally reassert themselves or be found needed as they are done without! Theoretically, it could mean that such essentials are re-expressed with the community around us as well as the Church.

Oops, did I say theoretically? That's what my Church is doing!