How do you know for sure you are saved? [Archive]

Jon_

14th August 2005, 04:34 PM

Questions for those who believe in John Calvins exclusive (ONE AND ONLY) select election theory.

Exactly how did God tell you you were saved?

Did God visit you, and speak to you with an audible voice?

Did you decide on your own that you were a Christian?
Through regeneration, God, by way of his Holy Spirit, gave me a new and clean heart. Even more, he gave me faith in his Son, Jesus Christ, even that faith which saves. As no man comes to salvific faith apart from the grace of God, I know that I am saved because I have faith. Moreover, I know that this faith comes from God (Eph. 2:8).

Were you BORN a Chrisatian?
Because election is a part of God's eternal decree, it is accurate to say that the elect are born Christians, even if they have not yet been regenerated. Because God has eternally declared the election of his children, it is accurate to say that we are Christians before we are even born. Our chronological, temporal state as mortals is inconsequential to the predestined state of our souls.

Are there certain exclusive denominational doctrinal guidelines, or steps of church advancement set in place by your church by which you are moved into the palce of salvation?
No.

From what I have read, you believe that you have do nothing to be saved,
This is inaccurate. You must believe on Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior.

you just suddenly become a Christian,
Again, no one "becomes a Christian." They are Christians from the beginning.

BUT where is the absolute BIBLICAL evidence which gives you the absolute assurance that you are truly saved?
(Ps. 37:23, 24, 28 KJV) The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way. 24) Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand. 28) For the LORD loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Hey I don't mean any of these questions in an offensive manner,
No offense taken (to these questions).

just wondered how you people come to the true knowledge of an absolute assurance of your salvation, that is very important to you after all......:)
Through God's Word--by the testimony of the Holy Spirit. :)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

CoffeeSwirls

14th August 2005, 09:44 PM

Jon_

14th August 2005, 11:50 PM

One thing I'm not understanding, Jon, is how you say you have been a Christian all of your life. I view Christianity as something that begins at conversion. Yes, God elected His church from the foundations of the world, and there was never any doubt that you would repent and believe, but isn't being a Christian a matter of being conformed to the image of Christ? I prefer to look to regeneration as a more accurate point in time to declare Christianity. Of course, the choice of repentance and faith is the deciding point, but regeneration makes this a non-choice as man will continually move in the direction by which the greatest joy is to be found. (Pascal)

Would you care to elaborate on your view a bit, either here or in another thread? I'm not sure I understand it fully.
Hey CS. Well, there isn't a whole lot to discuss. Since God's elect are eternally elect, regeneration is simply a consequence of that election, and not causal to one's state as redeemed in the eyes of God. That is, even before the foundation of the world, God loved us and planned to send Jesus Christ to die for us. In this sense, before we were even created, God had already put his plan for our salvation into motion. Because God is timeless, he sees everything before and everything after our regeneration. Because he forgives our trespasses for the sake of his Son's sacrificed, we are no longer considered sinners. Those sins have been covered by the blood of Christ. So even before we are temporally born and regenerated, we are already elected, justified, and redeemed. It is by this dynamic that the Old Testament saints were saved by belief in the typology of Christ. Even though Christ had not yet died for their sins physically, they were justified in faith. Even more, they were justified before the world was even created because God had predetermined them to salvation.

Our temporal standing as Christians is shown through fruit, of course. For instance, Paul was most certainly unregenerated before his encounter with our Lord on the road to Damascus. Nevertheless, Paul was still one of God's elect before being regenerated. But if you had asked other Christians about Paul at this time, they would not have accepted the claim that he was a Christian because he bore no fruit. Indeed, he was a hater and persecuter of Christians. However, after his conversion, his brothers knew that he was elect, and that God had changed his heart.

It is really a matter of focus. I focus on the election aspect of Christianity, in that it is God's eternal choice. The temporal aspect of Christianity is, of course, living a Christian life. That is how we know Christians in this life: by fruit. But this has no effect on the elected status of these persons. That has already been foreordained by the Lord. I look to God's decree of predestination as the absolute reference of those who are (or will become) Christians.

It's simply a difference in emphasis.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Beoga

15th August 2005, 01:16 AM

Jon_

15th August 2005, 01:27 AM

Jon:

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God Loves only certain ones, and hates everyone else?
I believe that God loves on the elect salvifically (savingly).

If you do please present sufficient Biblical evidence to suppoort this theory, and also give adequate Biblical evidence to prove that everything Jesus did at the cross was of none effect.
Define "sufficient Biblical evidence to support this theory."

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

SoldierofChrist

15th August 2005, 01:50 AM

Jon:

Do you believe the Bible teaches that God Loves only certain ones, and hates everyone else?

If you do please present sufficient Biblical evidence to suppoort this theory, and also give adequate Biblical evidence to prove that everything Jesus did at the cross was of none effect.

Well I can't answer for Jon, but while I agree with him in that God decreed before the foundation of the world who would be saved, I don't think Christians were 'always' saved. There is a point in time where God regenerates a sinner so you cannot say you were *always* a Christian if I am, in fact, understanding Jon correctly.

In any case, I can write my own thoughts out until the cows literally come home, but that certainly wouldn't do God's Word justice.

Romans 9:

"6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." 8This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9For this is what the promise said: "About this time next year I will return and Sarah shall have a son." 10And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call-- 12she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

14What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%209&version=47#fen-ESV-28152b)] but on God, who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills." Also I'm not sure where you get the notion that this somehow makes the cross of Jesus Christ of none affect. If anything, the Arminian version of the Gospel does this. You say that Christ died for the elect who are somehow simply those who God foreknew would accept Christ, but what does that say for the rest of mankind who don't? If Christ died for everyone, you are saying that His death wasn't enough to save everyone or else they would have been saved. Christ died for those sinners that God chose to save which is why they are saved. How could Christ have died for someone who dies without accepting Him?

CoffeeSwirls

15th August 2005, 06:22 AM

Thanks Jon, for your perspective. I still see some difference, or rather a certain progression from elect to Christian, but see where you are coming from as well. It's almost like the Perseverence of the Saints to be, similar to how God made a distinction between Jacob and Esau before their births.

Jon_

15th August 2005, 09:54 AM

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.
(Ps. 11:5 KJV) The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

(Rom. 9:13 KJV) As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.
In this you show a fundamental lack of understanding concerning the doctrine of election.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon_

15th August 2005, 10:00 AM

Jon:

Well I can't answer for Jon, but while I agree with him in that God decreed before the foundation of the world who would be saved, I don't think Christians were 'always' saved. There is a point in time where God regenerates a sinner so you cannot say you were *always* a Christian if I am, in fact, understanding Jon correctly. . . .
You understand me correctly, brother. I do think it is a difference in emphasis. Because I view God's decrees as being eternally fulfilled even if not temporally revealed, I consider all God's elect to be "Christians" whether or not they are regenerated yet because God's sovereign ordination of their election ensures that they will. Is it accurate to say in a temporal sense that him who does not display the fruits of the Spirit is regenerated and a Christian? No. But it is no more appropriate to say they are not a Christian, either. Who are we to judge the souls of me? God alone knows his elect and knows them eternally.

For me, it's just a view of semantics. (That is, the distinguishing of the elect from Christians.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

CoffeeSwirls

15th August 2005, 12:00 PM

What is your definition of belief? Is it an agreement to a fact? Even the demons believe in Christ, you realize. There is more to the gospel than John 3:16 also. I suggest a reading of all of John 3. If a teacher of the Law found rebirth to be so difficult to understand, we shouldn't be too quick to simplify the gospel into something we can easilly accept or into any one verse at the exclusion of others.

Jon_

15th August 2005, 02:04 PM

John 3:16......
Are you saying that the Bible contradicts itself?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

CoffeeSwirls

15th August 2005, 02:44 PM

I'm not saying that there is any contradiction. I just feel that many people have a westernized version of what the Bible means when certain words are used. Take believe for example. A person may believe that they are saved by grace (unmerited favor) and yet still try to "live a good life" to please God. Can they truly believe in grace and still try to earn favor? Granted, there is a proper place for good works, but people who think they are "basically good people" expose the general aversion to grace, which is one of the consequences of the fall.

Mark 9:24
Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, “I believe; help my unbelief!”

Beoga

15th August 2005, 03:53 PM

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.

The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.

I am very hesitant to trust your understanding of what the doctrine of election teaches, especially sense all you have done is spewed your hatred of Calvinism and have given no meaningful defense of your position.

In our pm "converstaion" I gave you these two verses that you ignored:

Psa 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before your eyes; you hate all evildoers.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

Beoga

15th August 2005, 03:55 PM

NO but apparently you must be.

Those who believe in the theory of election firmly contend that God specifically has pre-chosen some for salvation, and that all others have absolutely NO hope whatsoever of ever having any opportunity of receiving the gift of salvation.

THAT is why I HATE the doictrine of electiuon as it is taught by MEN, NOT BY God.

I firmly agree that there will be MANY who will NOT receive the gift of Salvation, BUT it will NOT be because God elected those people to be doomed for all eternity, it will be because THEY chose, according to their own free will to reject the offer of Salvation, OR it will be because they were NEVER witnessed to by those who think the doctrine of election (Or I should say exclusion) as it is taught by calvinists is a sound doctrine.

What is the doctrine of election as "taught by God?" "Obviously" we calvinist have it all wrong when it comes to this doctrine. Yet, the Scriptures do speak about predestination, election, the elect. So biblically, as "taught by God," what do these things mean?

Jon_

15th August 2005, 04:10 PM

NO but apparently you must be.
How do you explain God's hatred of the wicked, then?

Those who believe in the theory of election firmly contend that God specifically has pre-chosen some for salvation, and that all others have absolutely NO hope whatsoever of ever having any opportunity of receiving the gift of salvation.

THAT is why I HATE the doictrine of electiuon as it is taught by MEN, NOT BY God.

I firmly agree that there will be MANY who will NOT receive the gift of Salvation, BUT it will NOT be because God elected those people to be doomed for all eternity, it will be because THEY chose, according to their own free will to reject the offer of Salvation, OR it will be because they were NEVER witnessed to by those who think the doctrine of election (Or I should say exclusion) as it is taught by calvinists is a sound doctrine.
I have to be honest, I find you absolutely hilarious. Are you for real? :D

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

CoffeeSwirls

15th August 2005, 05:27 PM

If you look at the doctrine of man created in the image and likeness of God, being declared "very good" and indeed being "very good" you can understand much of God's demands in our post-fall situation.

As it was, we did rely on God for absolutely everything, and we did fulfill all requirements that were given to us joyfully. The fall changed all of this. Does that mean that God should change His expectations of His creation because we just don't feel like honoring His demands perfectly? Of course not. We are required to keep the whole law perfectly with no deviation. Since all have failed to do this, we must have a redeemer. However, since we have failed to meet God's rightful demands, we are naturally inclined against God's wishes. We do evil. What's more, we want to do evil.

Since we are carriers of this original sin, and since it does affect our desires (Romans 7:21), we must rely on God to choose us (Ephesians 1:3-10) as there is no one who seeks God (Romans 3:11). Thus, it is His decision to elect some and not all and nobody can fault His decisions (Daniel 4:35), as we are all by right, creatures of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

We mean-spirited Calvinists recognize the universal plight of sin for what it is and how it's effects are shown in Scripture. We do not preach this doctrine because it is the easiest to present to you. We preach it fron our desire to be true to the Bible. There is a universal requirement for all men to come to Christ for their salvation, but there is also a realization that most people will never be disposed to go to Christ, instead preferring their own ideas.
Calvinism is a completely humbling doctrine, but we desire you to understand and accept it because we want you to realize the truth. Until you accept that grace, by definition, is reserved only for those who believe they need it, you will think we are mean-spirited.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14
But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rolf Ernst

15th August 2005, 05:59 PM

Rolf Ernst

15th August 2005, 06:11 PM

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.

The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.

How can you think that? Don't you realize He chose His people because He had set His love upon them?

Even concerning the non-elect, it is a matter of justice; and His love for His people makes it certain that the wicked shall not go unpunished.

CoffeeSwirls

16th August 2005, 06:34 AM

Then... That must mean that Jesus failed his mission for the most part! He came to save all and all weren't saved! We worship a wooing god! No, we worship an idol made by human hands, who can be shaped in our own image. A construct that has eyes but cannot see and feet but cannot move.
:scratch:
How sad. This puts all the pressure on the preacher, who must likewise woo the congregation with whatever ideas he can to convince others to worship this same impotent god, for this god cannot even assist the pastor. And since the real power is in the hearer of the word, they are essentially saving themselves with no need for grace.
:bow:
I do believe I'll be reading Ephesians 2:1-10 again, just to break this sudden depression!
:P

oworm

16th August 2005, 05:05 PM

I do not, and I could NEVER believe or accept that God hates anyone.

The doctrine of election teaches that God is HATE NOT Love.
Romans 9:13 "Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

oworm

16th August 2005, 05:15 PM

There is no such thing as the NON elect, ALL are afforded an equal opportunity to be partakers of Gods love!

If there is no such thing as non elect then all must be elect according to your logic?

It is NOT simply a matter of Justice, it is a matter of rejection, not God rejecting man, but rather man, rejecting God.

God determiend that ALL men should be saved and come to the knowledge of HIS everlasting, unchanging truth.
If God determined something to happen and it does not happen then by your logic God has failed in His determination..........he cannot then be God can He?

God did NOT choose some for salvation and all the rest for eternal suffering.
Romans 9:18 "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

YES, there will be many who will reject Gods offer of salvation, and end up in hell throughout eternity, BUT it will not because God predestinated that they go to hell, it will be because they chose, according to their own free will, to reject Gods offer of salvation.
Romans 9:22 "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction?

God set his love on ALL mankind, not just an exclusive select few....
thats true..God does infact love all mankind insofar as he causes his rain to fall on all and causes the sun to shine on all and holds all things together by the power of his word. this is called his general grace which is extended to all people.

oworm

16th August 2005, 06:43 PM

PE. Why are you here in our forum?

oworm

16th August 2005, 07:05 PM

Oh My God!

It is YOUR forum!

I am so sorry, I completely, forgot YOU are one of the one and only exclusive select elect, and NO others are ever going to have the opportunity to be saved!

I forgot that YOU, and YOU alone are the only one God loves enough that he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross to pay the penalty for the sins of the whole worl... OOOPS, the sins of oworm.....^_^

I'm Prayin' for 'ya.....

Boy are you going to be surprised when you get to heaven, all those folks YOU thought shouldn't have been there, are going to be there.....:wave:

Im sorry. i only asked what your reason was for being here

Rolf Ernst

16th August 2005, 10:02 PM

PE must be unwilling to acknowledge that some forums have bounds and for good reason--so those who hold the truth can fellowship in it without bewing hassled by those who do not.

CCWoody

16th August 2005, 10:35 PM

Questions for those who believe in John Calvins exclusive (ONE AND ONLY) select election theory.

Exactly how did God tell you you were saved?

Did God visit you, and speak to you with an audible voice?

Did you decide on your own that you were a Christian?

Were you BORN a Chrisatian?

Divine TRUTH is self-authenticating:

In fact, it would seem strange if God revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ and inspired the record of that revelation in the Bible, but did not provide a way for ordinary people to know it. Stated most simply, the common path to sure knowledge of the REAL Jesus is this: Jesus, as he is revealed in the Bible, has a glory--an excellence, a spiritual beauty--that can be see as self-evidently true. It is like seeing the sun and knowing that it is light and not dark, or like tasting honey and knowing that it is sweet and not sour. There is no long chain of reasoning from premises to conclusions. There is a direct apprehension that this person is true and his glory is the glory of God.

The apostle Paul described this path to the knowledge of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6:

The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God…. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Notice that Paul speaks of God's enlightening our hearts (as in the work of creation) to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." He is talking about people who have never seen the historical Jesus. How can they know Him and be sure of Him? What they "see" is the verbal portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel, that is, in the apostolic preaching of Christ. This portrayal, Paul says, accompanied by God's shining "in our hearts," appears to us as what is really is--"the glory of God in… Christ," or as "the glory of Christ… the image of God."

You can see that two things make this path possible. One is the reality of the glory of Jesus Christ shining through his portrayal in the Bible. The other is the work of God to open the eyes of our blinded hearts to see this glory. This is very different from God "telling us" that the Bible is true. It is rather, God's enabling us to see what is really there. This is an important difference. If God whispered in our ear, as it were, that the Jesus of the Bible is true, then the whispering would have the final authority and everything would hang on that. But that is not the path I see in the Bible nor the path I follow. Rather Jesus himself, and His divinely inspired portrayal in the Bible, have the final authority.

The practical effect of this path is that I do not ask you to pray for a special whisper from God to decide if Jesus is real. Rather I ask you to look at the Jesus of the Bible. Look at Him. Don't close your eyes and hope for a word of confirmation. Keep your eyes open and fill them with the full portrait of Jesus provided in the Bible. If you come to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and God, it will be because you see in Him a divine glory and excellence that simply is what it is--TRUE.

Sometimes this path is called the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." The old catechisms say it this way: "The Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able to fully persuade it that they are the very Word of God." Be sure to notice that the Spirit persuades "by and with the Scriptures." He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute private revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ.

The full image of the glory of God that is Christ is breathtaking in its elegance and majesty. All those who truly see it are radically transformed. They see their own sin and they see the perfection of Christ. And they are compelled to have Him for their own. He is glorified in us and we are freed to fully satisfy ourselves in all that He is for us. We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ staves and sanctifies.

CoffeeSwirls

17th August 2005, 12:20 AM

If you can admit that you are in violation of the rules that you agreed to, are you able to either pose your questions and consider our answers in the light of scripture? If not, I would suggest you seek a forum that you can agree with. We are much more open to discussion in this forum than some of the other groups, but the rules are installed by admins and the like, not users.

PentecostalEvangelist

17th August 2005, 01:54 PM

It would certainly be to everyones liking if everyone who comes would not disgaree, and yet this shall never happen, just as there shall never be unity in the body of Christ.

There are many diverse, differences of opinion, many strange interpretations of scripture, and many, many more headstrong, and extremely confused seekers of truth, who hear no truth, who see no truth, who know no truth, who have no truth, who speak no truth, we all, as one, are equally the same, and yet we are NOT one body in Christ, we are all, as dust in a tornado, scattered violently to the raging, hostile, perverted, corrupt winds of many, many diverse, confusing doctrines of men.

And I am, of all men, certainly the most violently tossed, and in all things, the most horribly hated

I will surely die a violent, hostile, painful, miserable, sickening, disgusting death.

For this, is undeniably what GOD has predestinated for me, I have certainly been elected to suffering.

Like the sounds of the storm calling violently to the calm, prosephying it's destruction, I can hear the storm rushing toward me, coming faster, and faster, drawing closer, and closer, prophesying my own destruction, I see it, I hear it, I feel it, it is meant to be, it shall come to pass, it shall be, it is.

Do you think me insane? Can you see my pain? Can you feel my sorrow? I feel nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing, I know nothing, I am not, and yet I am, I wish to be, yet I cannot be, I am, and yet I do not wish to be.

Go they say, leave us and come here no more, we cannot abide your presence, you stink, you are a dsigusting foul, and vile perversion, shall we continue to provide for you?

Shall we always labor, by the sweat of our brow for your sustenance?

NO!

We will send you to the tormentors, and watch as you are required, and held accountable for the sins of your youth, you will pay the price in full they cry out with loud voices, we have hated you from the day of your birth, why, they have asked my mother and father, why did you let him come, why didn't you kill this monster in the womb?

And they know only silence, and I see only tears, tears of self hatred, tears of self disgust, tears of hope, hope for an end, hope for an
end....:(

rnmomof7

17th August 2005, 02:42 PM

Divine TRUTH is self-authenticating:

In fact, it would seem strange if God revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ and inspired the record of that revelation in the Bible, but did not provide a way for ordinary people to know it. Stated most simply, the common path to sure knowledge of the REAL Jesus is this: Jesus, as he is revealed in the Bible, has a glory--an excellence, a spiritual beauty--that can be see as self-evidently true. It is like seeing the sun and knowing that it is light and not dark, or like tasting honey and knowing that it is sweet and not sour. There is no long chain of reasoning from premises to conclusions. There is a direct apprehension that this person is true and his glory is the glory of God.

The apostle Paul described this path to the knowledge of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6:

The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God…. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Notice that Paul speaks of God's enlightening our hearts (as in the work of creation) to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." He is talking about people who have never seen the historical Jesus. How can they know Him and be sure of Him? What they "see" is the verbal portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel, that is, in the apostolic preaching of Christ. This portrayal, Paul says, accompanied by God's shining "in our hearts," appears to us as what is really is--"the glory of God in… Christ," or as "the glory of Christ… the image of God."

You can see that two things make this path possible. One is the reality of the glory of Jesus Christ shining through his portrayal in the Bible. The other is the work of God to open the eyes of our blinded hearts to see this glory. This is very different from God "telling us" that the Bible is true. It is rather, God's enabling us to see what is really there. This is an important difference. If God whispered in our ear, as it were, that the Jesus of the Bible is true, then the whispering would have the final authority and everything would hang on that. But that is not the path I see in the Bible nor the path I follow. Rather Jesus himself, and His divinely inspired portrayal in the Bible, have the final authority.

Excellent Woody ! I miss seeing you around more.

Indeed the word of God tells us that

Mat 13:16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Mat 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous [men] have desired to see [those things] which ye see, and have not seen [them]; and to hear [those things] which ye hear, and have not heard [them

This is why one must have the Holy Spirit must quicken you and convict you of Sin and lead you to the truth BEFORE God gives you Faith and repentance.

Elected - Summoned - Regenerated - Converted - Justified - Adopted- Sanctified - Preserved

The practical effect of this path is that I do not ask you to pray for a special whisper from God to decide if Jesus is real. Rather I ask you to look at the Jesus of the Bible. Look at Him. Don't close your eyes and hope for a word of confirmation. Keep your eyes open and fill them with the full portrait of Jesus provided in the Bible. If you come to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and God, it will be because you see in Him a divine glory and excellence that simply is what it is--TRUE.

Sometimes this path is called the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." The old catechisms say it this way: "The Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able to fully persuade it that they are the very Word of God." Be sure to notice that the Spirit persuades "by and with the Scriptures." He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute private revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ.

The full image of the glory of God that is Christ is breathtaking in its elegance and majesty. All those who truly see it are radically transformed. They see their own sin and they see the perfection of Christ. And they are compelled to have Him for their own. He is glorified in us and we are freed to fully satisfy ourselves in all that He is for us. We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18)

Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ staves and sanctifies.

Amen Brother !

PentecostalEvangelist

17th August 2005, 03:03 PM

And yet still NO ONE knows for certain IF they are the Elect, or if they are NOT the elect, there is no absolute assurance in this, NONE, it is nothing more than a very slim, and even more uncertain 50-50 chance, a blindmans never to be seen vision, a deaf mans never to be heard sound, a mystery that will forever remain, unknown.

Only those who are presumed to be are to be, and they still know not if they are, or they are not, who calls the name, who speaks the sounds to be heard by the hearers, who can hear, who cannot, what is faith, it is not, it is, it was, it shall be?

Whose names are engraved in the scrolls of justification, whose names are not, whose name were to be there written, and whose names were not there to be seen?

Who has no hope? Who is to blame? Is his blood so vile, so disgusting, and unclean? So worthless, and useless, and to some, of no avail?

What profit is in the sacrifice? NONE, if it is as it has been written down in the honored scrolls of the learned theologians among the most respected men of the company of the wise and righteous unmatched teachers of knowledge and
understanding.

I shall not hear, I cannot hear, I must not hear, I shall not see, I cannot see, I must not see, I shall not know, I cannot know, I must not know, I shall not speak, I cannot speak, I must not speak, I am among all men, the most vile, the most disgusting, I am NOT, for I was not to be, my name is not there, it shall not be there, it was not meant to be there, it cannot be there, it is NOT there...:(

Beoga

17th August 2005, 04:01 PM

CCWoody

17th August 2005, 04:13 PM

Excellent Woody ! I miss seeing you around more.

Well, you know, it is like this....

Play with Pentecostals on CF or do something to make some money. You figure it out. It's not like I don't like Pentecostals cause, after all, I used to be one and there ain't nothing more fun than to play with a Pentecostal. And, I'm still your friendly neighborhood Charismatic Calvinist, aren't I?

But, hey, it is a cash flow thing you see.

PentecostalEvangelist

17th August 2005, 04:21 PM

PE-
If we can have no assurance of our election, if we cannot know for certain, then why did Peter command us to make our calling and election sure?

2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

I never said YOU couldn't I said I cannot, and I never shall, I have learned, in these past few days, this one absolute unchanging truth, GOD hates yes, I know, God does certainly hates, he hates indeed, indeed, I know, that he hates me......:(

PentecostalEvangelist

17th August 2005, 04:23 PM

Well, you know, it is like this....

Play with Pentecostals on CF or do something to make some money. You figure it out. It's not like I don't like Pentecostals cause, after all, I used to be one and there ain't nothing more fun than to play with a Pentecostal. And, I'm still your friendly neighborhood Charismatic Calvinist, aren't I?

But, hey, it is a cash flow thing you see.

I am that thing that so much disgusts you, I am, and shall be, that thing, that thing, that thing, that vile, rotten, disgusting, stinking thing that so much disgusts you....:(

CCWoody

17th August 2005, 06:37 PM

And yet still NO ONE knows for certain IF they are the Elect, or if they are NOT the elect, there is no absolute assurance in this, NONE, it is nothing more than a very slim, and even more uncertain 50-50 chance, a blindmans never to be seen vision, a deaf mans never to be heard sound, a mystery that will forever remain, unknown.:(

Well, I know.

You should learn to lighten up. A first step would be by becoming a Calvinist. We have more fun. And you get to know the secret interpretation of all those confusing passages of Scripture (they came with my secret Calvinist decoder ring.)

Now, along the point I made with my first post, specifically that God has not skirted the Scriptures, but used the Scriptures as the means by which He communicates divine truth and brings his children into the fold. In the same manner, He also communicates to them the assurance of their salvation.1Jo 5:13 GB

(13) These things haue I written vnto you, that beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God, that ye may knowe that ye haue eternall life, and that ye may beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God.

BTW, you are invited to take your stab at this thread that I started which has to do with election.

Shredding the myth of Election by foreseen faith one verse at a time (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=17742549&postcount=1)

rnmomof7

17th August 2005, 07:34 PM

Well, I know.

You should learn to lighten up. A first step would be by becoming a Calvinist. We have more fun. And you get to know the secret interpretation of all those confusing passages of Scripture (they came with my secret Calvinist decoder ring.)

LOL ... you and that decoder ring !

Now, along the point I made with my first post, specifically that God has not skirted the Scriptures, but used the Scriptures as the means by which He communicates divine truth and brings his children into the fold. In the same manner, He also communicates to them the assurance of their salvation.[indent]1Jo 5:13 GB

(13) These things haue I written vnto you, that beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God, that ye may knowe that ye haue eternall life, and that ye may beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God.

Exactly

"union with Christ... underlies all of soteriology."

- John Calvin

His Chosen Ones?

by Spurgeon

In the very beginning, when this great universe was in the mind
of God, like unborn forests in a cup of acorns; long before the
echoes walked in the quiet solitudes; before the mountains
were brought forth; and long before the light flashed through
the sky, God loved His chosen men and women. Before there
were men and women--when the heavens were not yet
fanned by an angel's wing; when space itself did not an exist;
when there was nothing but God alone; even then, in that
loneliness of Deity, and in that deep quiet and depth, His heart
moved for His chosen ones. Their names were written on His
heart, and they became dear to His soul.

For this God is our God for ever and ever;
he will be our guide even to the end. Psalm 48:14

JJB

17th August 2005, 08:39 PM

1Jo 5:13 GB

(13) These things haue I written vnto you, that beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God, that ye may knowe that ye haue eternall life, and that ye may beleeue in the Name of that Sonne of God.

I would say that this verse is what lets me understand and know that I am saved. Even I can understand that and Praise God!

PE, how do you understand that verse?

BTW, I didn't get that secret decoder ring, just the mind that God has given me that he is fashioning to be like His son!

rmwilliamsll

17th August 2005, 08:56 PM

CCWoody

17th August 2005, 09:26 PM

BTW, I didn't get that secret decoder ring,...

Gads. How are we going to swear you in and get you to that secret society meeting being held you know where? Just to let the cat out of the bag, this weekend's topic is:

"If Benny Hinn was a Calvinist, he'd have better hair."

I'll see if I can find out where your ring is hiding. In the meantime, you practice your secret handshake.

CCWoody

17th August 2005, 09:35 PM

is my secret decoder ring in the mail?

i wrote an essay on assurance of faith and would be thankful if anyone has things to add to it. it is a neat and useful topic. thanks for the input here.

http://www.dakotacom.net/%7Ermwillia/lesson13_essay.html

I'll check on your essay.

In the meantime, you have to send in the coupon in the box of Servetus flakes cereal to get your ring. Better hurry, the rave known as the Reformation is in full swing, despite the fact that that killjoy Arminius has tried to shut us down. You'll need your ring to get in.

Jon_

17th August 2005, 09:38 PM

Gads. How are we going to swear you in and get you to that secret society meeting being held you know where? Just to let the cat out of the bag, this weekend's topic is:

"If Benny Hinn was a Calvinist, he'd have better hair."

I'll see if I can find out where your ring is hiding. In the meantime, you practice your secret handshake.
By the way, Woody, I lost the new number for 911. Could you send it to me though the secret satellite uplink? Many thanks. You should be getting a visit from a black unmarked Hummer with my monthy dues tomorrow.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

PentecostalEvangelist

17th August 2005, 10:19 PM

MY GOD, I SEE IT NOW, IF I AM TO BE AMONG THE ELECT, I MUST TOTALLY SURRENDER MY LIFE TO JOHN CALVIN!

IF I EVER HOPE TO SPEND ETERNITY IN HEAVEN, I MUST BECOME A CALVINIST! ^_^

JJB

17th August 2005, 10:32 PM

Gads. How are we going to swear you in and get you to that secret society meeting being held you know where? Just to let the cat out of the bag, this weekend's topic is:

"If Benny Hinn was a Calvinist, he'd have better hair."

I'll see if I can find out where your ring is hiding. In the meantime, you practice your secret handshake.

Thanks, CC. I'll await with bad -- er, I mean, baited breath until you find my ring! One of my fav colors is red!

This weekend's topic sounds cryptic. I look forward to the discussion.

Gotta go! I better make an appointment with my hair stylist and shine up my shades. :cool:

Rick Otto

17th August 2005, 10:41 PM

but I broke up with her 'cause her breath was 'baited'.:blush:

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 01:16 AM

but I broke up with her 'cause her breath was 'baited'.:blush:

I plan to attend the Arkansas State Baiters Academy again next year, I'm working on my Masters.....^_^

5solas

18th August 2005, 01:23 AM

MY GOD, I SEE IT NOW, IF I AM TO BE AMONG THE ELECT, I MUST TOTALLY SURRENDER MY LIFE TO JOHN CALVIN!

IF I EVER HOPE TO SPEND ETERNITY IN HEAVEN, I MUST BECOME A CALVINIST! ^_^

brothers and sisters:
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/images/smilies/trolls.gif

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 02:03 AM

shuvdatsineupurnoz

oworm

18th August 2005, 02:41 AM

http://the-rip.com/wbboard/images/smilies/bfg.gif (javascript:smilie(':bfg:')) http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/images/smilies/trolls.gifhttp://the-rip.com/wbboard/images/smilies/nuke.gif (javascript:smilie(':nuke:'))

5solas

18th August 2005, 04:12 AM

http://the-rip.com/wbboard/images/smilies/bfg.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:smilie(':bfg:')) http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/images/smilies/trolls.gifhttp://the-rip.com/wbboard/images/smilies/nuke.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:smilie(':nuke:'))

:confused: :confused: :scratch: :help:

oworm

18th August 2005, 04:13 AM

:confused: :confused: :scratch: :help:

Joke. Not aimed at you brother............... just shooting the troll:)

5solas

18th August 2005, 05:45 AM

Joke. Not aimed at you brother............... just shooting the troll:)

ahaaaaa http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/brutale/brutale_102.gif
http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/brutale/brutale_01.gif (http://www.gratissmilies.de/smileys_brutale.html#)

but it would be better if we could do this http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/liebe/liebe_40.gif or this http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/liebe/liebe_69.gif

but first the troll needs this http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/kranke/kranke_01.gif (http://www.gratissmilies.de/smileys_kranke.html#)http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/kranke/kranke_13.gifhttp://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/kranke/kranke_04.gif and this
http://www.freebiblesoftware.com/pictures/bk_westminsterL.jpg

:wave:

oworm

18th August 2005, 07:30 AM

ahaaaaa http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/brutale/brutale_102.gif
http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/brutale/brutale_01.gif (http://www.gratissmilies.de/smileys_brutale.html#)

but it would be better if we could do this http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/liebe/liebe_40.gif or this http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/liebe/liebe_69.gif

but first the troll needs this http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/kranke/kranke_01.gif (http://www.gratissmilies.de/smileys_kranke.html#)http://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/kranke/kranke_13.gifhttp://www.gratissmilies.de/smilies/kranke/kranke_04.gif and this
http://www.freebiblesoftware.com/pictures/bk_westminsterL.jpg

:wave:

And this :groupray: :preach:

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 11:55 AM

Come on now, be honest wormy, you really want me dead.

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 12:12 PM

oworm

18th August 2005, 12:34 PM

Come on now, be honest wormy, you really want me dead.

Not a chance my friend:)

JJB

18th August 2005, 12:46 PM

:confused:

:(

:groupray:

:hug:

:groupray:

:bow:

JJB

18th August 2005, 12:49 PM

http://i20.ebayimg.com/04/i/04/a2/f2/90_2.JPG (http://cgi.ebay.com/Collectible-Vintage-Thomas-Dam-Norfin-Troll-with-Tag_W0QQitemZ5993693029QQcategoryZ348QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting) <------ troll :hug:

CCWoody

18th August 2005, 12:55 PM

Come on now, be honest wormy, you really want me dead.

You really need to learn to lighten up and have some fun.

Anyway, we don't want you dead. Pentecostals only taste good when you eat them warm and wriggling.

http://express.howstuffworks.com/gif/gollum-intro.jpg

oworm

18th August 2005, 12:55 PM

ALL I want to know is HOW you people who think Calvins theory of election is a sound Biblical doctrine, KNOW for certain that YOU alone, are the one, and ONLY exclusive, select FEW that GOD exclusively selected to be the exclusive select elect, BEFORE you ever became Christians.

We dont think that. All who come to Christ for salvation are saved and part of Gods elect whether they realise it or not! Anyone who is born again of God's Spirit is Gods child

You would have to know BEFORE you were ever saved, that you alone are the one and only exclusive, select elect.
Only God knows those who will come to Him for salvation.

And where does FAITH come in, if you are truly the one and only exclusive select elect, FAITH has absolutely nothing to do with yoiur salvation.

Faith is the channel whereby Gods Grace comes to us. God graciously opens our eyes to the reality of our sin and need of him and grants us faith to believe in Him

IF you are the exclusive select electl you don't have to have any FAITH to be saved, it's already a done deal, you don't have to do anything at all God already chose you, RIGHT?

Read my answer above and read also this text:

Ephesians 2:8-10 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do

All you have to do is sit there, and GOD picks you out, and BANG! You're saved!
God doesnt "Pick out" like picking black or red jelly babies out of a bag.
He doesnt sit in Heaven with his hand on his chin saying to himself "Now lets see hmmmmm i'll have that one and that one and yeugh im not having that dirty looking one there"

God elects according to his foreknowledge of all that will come to pass.

WHERE in the BIBLE is your concrete, undeniable BIBLICAL evidence of this,THAT question has NEVER been answered.
Read Romans Chapters 8-11 and ephesians 1-2

JJB

18th August 2005, 01:00 PM

Great replies, oworm! :thumbsup: Thank you for posting above. I'll pray that PE can hear them.

CCWoody

18th August 2005, 01:34 PM

Only God knows those who will come to Him for salvation.

Actually, I would state it a bit differently: Only God knows those whom he will draw to himself for salvation.

I think that PE is laboring under an amalgamation of his beliefs and ours. You see, it does seem that, in his mind, if God has elected only some to be saved, that there would be others who would freely come to God for salvation only to be turned away because they were not Elected. It needs to be stated that, with our election comes even the desire for salvation. Those who are not among the Elect will never come to the Lord in any meaningful way for salvation. As the blessed Saint Augustine notes:"We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.

It may very well be that PE thinks that, because anyone can come to God on his own, if our doctrine of Election is the doctrine of the Bible then you would have to know before you are saved and a believer if you are one of the special lucky ones. Otherwise, you will get turned away by God. Of course, as Augustine notes, we are not chosen because we believe but that we might believe. And so our election carries with it the promise that the Lord will surely see that we will be brought into the fold.

This might also explain PE's confusion about how, specifically we can know that we are among the Elect. You see, I think that, in his confusion, true belief is not a sign of Election because anyone can believe whether they are among the Elect or a Reprobate.

oworm

18th August 2005, 01:46 PM

Well put Woody! And yes i agree my opening statement was slightly askew. Oh well i suppose i should go give myself some purgatorial lashings for 5 minutes. http://the-rip.com/wbboard/images/smilies/Whip.gif (javascript:smilie(':whip:'))

rnmomof7

18th August 2005, 01:55 PM

ALL I want to know is HOW you people who think Calvins theory of election is a sound Biblical doctrine, KNOW for certain that YOU alone, are the one, and ONLY exclusive, select FEW that GOD exclusively selected to be the exclusive select elect, BEFORE you ever became Christians.

You would have to know BEFORE you were ever saved, that you alone are the one and only exclusive, select elect.

Did Abraham know? Did the apostles always know before they were drawn? Mary ? Paul?

Like the reprobate masses the elect remnant are totally depraved and not seeking after the God of the bible until opens eyes and gives new hearts..

And where does FAITH come in, if you are truly the one and only exclusive select elect, FAITH has absolutely nothing to do with yoiur salvation.

Men are saved by faith, but not the faith that trusts the pizza will arrive on time. Saving faith is a gift of God not a self generated wish list .

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Read it. The faith is NOT a gift of yourself it is a gift of God .

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

[b]IF you are the exclusive select electl you don't have to have any FAITH to be saved, it's already a done deal, you don't have to do anything at all God already chose you, RIGHT?

Angry rants prove nothing

By grace through faith is the ordained means of salvation .

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

All you have to do is sit there, and GOD picks you out, and BANG! You're saved!

WHERE in the BIBLE is your concrete, undeniable BIBLICAL evidence of this?

THAT question has NEVER been answered.

I think biblical evidence has been given to you... you just can not see it or choose not to see it.

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 02:43 PM

Did Abraham know? Did the apostles always know before they were drawn? Mary ? Paul?

Like the reprobate masses the elect remnant are totally depraved and not seeking after the God of the bible until opens eyes and gives new hearts..

Men are saved by faith, but not the faith that trusts the pizza will arrive on time. Saving faith is a gift of God not a self generated wish list .

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Read it. The faith is NOT a gift of yourself it is a gift of God .

Phl 1:29 For unto you[b] it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Gal 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Angry rants prove nothing

By grace through faith is the ordained means of salvation .

1Cr 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

1Cr 1:24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

I think biblical evidence has been given to you... you just can not see it or choose not to see it.

Present sound BIBLICAL evidence of exactly WHEN God became a LIAR......

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 02:47 PM

Actually, I would state it a bit differently: Only God knows those whom he will draw to himself for salvation.

I think that PE is laboring under an amalgamation of his beliefs and ours. You see, it does seem that, in his mind, if God has elected only some to be saved, that there would be others who would freely come to God for salvation only to be turned away because they were not Elected. It needs to be stated that, with our election comes even the desire for salvation. Those who are not among the Elect will never come to the Lord in any meaningful way for salvation. As the blessed Saint Augustine notes:"We have obtained a lot, being predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. He, therefore, worketh the beginning of our belief who worketh all things; because faith itself does not precede that calling of which it is said: "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance;" and of which it is said: "Not of works, but of Him that calleth"; and the election which the Lord signified when He said: "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." For He chose us, not because we believed, but that we might believe, lest we should be said first to have chosen Him, and so His word be false (which be it far from us to think possible), "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe.

It may very well be that PE thinks that, because anyone can come to God on his own, if our doctrine of Election is the doctrine of the Bible then you would have to know before you are saved and a believer if you are one of the special lucky ones. Otherwise, you will get turned away by God. Of course, as Augustine notes, we are not chosen because we believe but that we might believe. And so our election carries with it the promise that the Lord will surely see that we will be brought into the fold.

This might also explain PE's confusion about how, specifically we can know that we are among the Elect. You see, I think that, in his confusion, true belief is not a sign of Election because anyone can believe whether they are among the Elect or a Reprobate.

NO, I am not confused, it is NOT about who will accept GODS offer of salvation, and who will reject that offer according to their own FREE WILL, it is about IF the offer is to be made to ANYONE at all!

Your doctrine specifically teaches that those who are not among the exclusively selected elect should NEVER be given any opportunity whatseoever to receive the gift of salvation, they are to be ignored, and totally rejected by GOD, and by man, they are to be hated, and left to the torments of satan, forever, THAT is what I hate about your doctirne.....

Again I ask very HuMBLY, explain HOW YOU knew YOU were exclusively selected BY God to become Gods exclusively selected elect.

Absolutely NO Biblical evidence has ever yet been given to prove this to be absolutely Biblically sound....

CCWoody

18th August 2005, 02:54 PM

Men are saved by faith, but not the faith that trusts the pizza will arrive on time. Saving faith is a gift of God not a self generated wish list .

Actually, I do agree with PE on one point regarding the relationship between faith and salvation: "If you are truly the one and only exclusive select elect, FAITH has absolutely nothing to do with yoiur salvation." You see, it is not a matter of faith to be saved in any sense other than the faith that those of us who are already saved have that the Lord will come and receive us to himself. That is a faith in a future salvation.

It is a matter of faith that the Lord has already saved us, in the shed grace of God. We believe that we are saved. We do not believe to get saved. This is what it means when we read "grace through faith." If we were to believe to get saved, then we would be turning belief into works based righteousness before God and rendering our salvation not by grace, but by works. Then, the Ephesians passage would read "grace plus faith," which is how the synergists claim it should be read.

Abraham taught me earlier last week when I was passing dow the Roman road in my morning devotions, that if belief caused my salvation, then my salvation would be by my own righteousness. Do you know what verse I noticed? I've read it a hundred times and only just now noticed it. hehehe!

oworm

18th August 2005, 03:12 PM

NO, I am not confused, it is NOT about who will accept GODS offer of salvation, and who will reject that offer according to their own FREE WILL, it is about IF the offer is to be made to ANYONE at all!
The gospel is to be preached to all. the great commision commands it!

Your doctrine specifically teaches that those who are not among the exclusively selected elect should NEVER be given any opportunity whatseoever to receive the gift of salvation,
The gospel is to be preached to all without exception.to some it is a fragrance of life and to others it is a fragrance of death.

they are to be ignored,
Show us where our doctrine teaches that we are to ignore non christians?

Those who do not know Christ and do not come to him are rejected

[QUOTE] and by man, they are to be hated,
Show us where our doctrine teaches that we are to hate non christians?!
and left to the torments of satan, forever, THAT is what I hate about your doctirne.....
The bible clearly teaches that there is a place of eternal separation from God.that is inescapable and inevitable for those who will not come to Christ

Again I ask very HuMBLY, explain HOW YOU knew YOU were exclusively selected BY God to become Gods exclusively selected elect.
By reading the WHOLE cousel of scripture.

Absolutely NO Biblical evidence has ever yet been given to prove this to be absolutely Biblically sound....

You have been given plenty of sources from scripture that clearly show Gods electing and predestinating purpose in salvation.

rmwilliamsll

18th August 2005, 03:15 PM

this thread reminds me of the sermon illustration:

when you throw a stone into a pack of dogs
you can tell the one you hit because he's the one that howls.

...

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 03:46 PM

I quit, I know now that None of you are ever going to present sufficient Biblical evidence to answer my questions.

Your doctrine is NOT completely Biblically sound, and I refuse to accept it, promote it, or defend it.

I am NOT condemnning any of you, or saying that any of you are NOT saved, but I know that you, according to the nature of YOUR doctrine, are saying that all others who are NOT esxclusively selected to be GODS exclusive select elect, BEFORE the foundation the world ARE fully rejected by GOD and in that case, to be rejected by you.

I cannot, and I will never beleive that GOD is a liar, or that ANY part of his word is a lie, your doctrine of election teaches that GOD is a liar.

I am through discussing this with you, I know I am saved, I know that I am one of Gods chosen ones, I know this because I chose to accept his gift of salvation, I Knwo this becasue someone came to me and told me of the love of God for me, I know this becasue someone was not selfish with Gods love, I KNow this BECAUSE I KNOW God loves me just as much as he loves the entire world, and I know GOD wants every person, throughout the entire world to be saved, and because I Know this, and because of what I did to submit my life, and surrender to him completely, and accept his offer of salvation BY Faith, I know will spend eternity in heaven.

I Became the elect when I accepted the gift by faith according to my own free will, no mater what any of you say, GODS word is true, anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere can.

I apologize foe everything and anything I may have said to offend any of you, I am very passionate about my convictions concerning the absolute infallibility of ALL of Gods word, when I becamse a Christian, I came in to be fully submitted, and in everyway faithful to ALL of GODS word.

I determined in my heart from the beginning that I would believe God, and everything he has said in his word, I cannot, and I will not exclude ANY poart of his word, or reject any part of his word, I dcxetermined in my heart that IF I cannot believe GOD is absolutely true about one part of his word, then he is not true about ANY of his word.

You can make fun of me, insult me, do anything you want, I do not care, I choose to believe ALL of Gods word, because if ALL of GODS word were not applicable, then we would NOT have ALL of Gods word.

May God richly bless you all.....

Michael

CCWoody

18th August 2005, 03:50 PM

NO, I am not confused, it is NOT about who will accept GODS offer of salvation, and who will reject that offer according to their own FREE WILL, it is about IF the offer is to be made to ANYONE at all!

Your doctrine specifically teaches that those who are not among the exclusively selected elect should NEVER be given any opportunity whatseoever to receive the gift of salvation, they are to be ignored, and totally rejected by GOD, and by man, they are to be hated, and left to the torments of satan, forever, THAT is what I hate about your doctirne.....

Actually, no, this is not what my doctrine teaches at all. It can't even be honestly inferred from what my doctrine teaches. So, you are perfectly free to hate this thing you describe. I can't say I'm too fond of it either. That is not to say that there is not a sense in which some very selected parts of your assertion are true.

Again I ask very HuMBLY, explain HOW YOU knew YOU were exclusively selected BY God to become Gods exclusively selected elect.

Asked and answered. You have to go back to my very first post on the subject.

In short, the Lord opened my eyes blinded by hostility and rebellion against him to see. He enlightening my heart in the same way that He spoke the words of creation "Let there be light" to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." IOW, the communication of my salvation was done by an act of creation, specifically, the act of re-creating me, the new birth. My response was natural. As Adam opened his eyes to behold the glory of the Creator who had just given him life I opened my eyes to behold the glory of the Redeemer who had given me new life. Anyway, here is my post again for you to consider: In fact, it would seem strange if God revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ and inspired the record of that revelation in the Bible, but did not provide a way for ordinary people to know it. Stated most simply, the common path to sure knowledge of the REAL Jesus is this: Jesus, as he is revealed in the Bible, has a glory--an excellence, a spiritual beauty--that can be see as self-evidently true. It is like seeing the sun and knowing that it is light and not dark, or like tasting honey and knowing that it is sweet and not sour. There is no long chain of reasoning from premises to conclusions. There is a direct apprehension that this person is true and his glory is the glory of God.

The apostle Paul described this path to the knowledge of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6:

The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God…. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
Notice that Paul speaks of God's enlightening our hearts (as in the work of creation) to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." He is talking about people who have never seen the historical Jesus. How can they know Him and be sure of Him? What they "see" is the verbal portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel, that is, in the apostolic preaching of Christ. This portrayal, Paul says, accompanied by God's shining "in our hearts," appears to us as what it really is--"the glory of God in… Christ," or as "the glory of Christ… the image of God."

You can see that two things make this path possible. One is the reality of the glory of Jesus Christ shining through his portrayal in the Bible. The other is the work of God to open the eyes of our blinded hearts to see this glory. This is very different from God "telling us" that the Bible is true. It is rather, God's enabling us to see what is really there. This is an important difference. If God whispered in our ear, as it were, that the Jesus of the Bible is true, then the whispering would have the final authority and everything would hang on that. But that is not the path I see in the Bible nor the path I follow. Rather Jesus himself, and His divinely inspired portrayal in the Bible, have the final authority.

The practical effect of this path is that I do not ask you to pray for a special whisper from God to decide if Jesus is real. Rather I ask you to look at the Jesus of the Bible. Look at Him. Don't close your eyes and hope for a word of confirmation. Keep your eyes open and fill them with the full portrait of Jesus provided in the Bible. If you come to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and God, it will be because you see in Him a divine glory and excellence that simply is what it is--TRUE.

Sometimes this path is called the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." The old catechisms say it this way: "The Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able to fully persuade it that they are the very Word of God." Be sure to notice that the Spirit persuades "by and with the Scriptures." He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute private revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ.

The full image of the glory of God that is Christ is breathtaking in its elegance and majesty. All those who truly see it are radically transformed. They see their own sin and they see the perfection of Christ. And they are compelled to have Him for their own. He is glorified in us and we are freed to fully satisfy ourselves in all that He is for us.We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into His likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:18) Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ staves and sanctifies.

rmwilliamsll

18th August 2005, 03:54 PM

be careful however,
for tomorrow you may wake up and unchoose.
and jump out of the hand of a God who is powerful enough only to potentially save,
who needs the creature to assent in order to rescue us from the pit.
an impotent God who waits through time to see who will real choose Him

as for me, i prefer a God who can really save
who isn't subject to time nor to my vagaries and whims
held fast not just to the end of time, but from it's beginning as well

adios
...

oworm

18th August 2005, 04:01 PM

PE you asked in a PM for these verses to be addressed

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life

The "world" in this text in its original is Kosmos from which we get our word cosmos. The love God has for the world is a love that encompasses his whole creation. Not just creatures. We tend to think of it as meaning just us because we are so selfish we think the world revolves around us. That us why the creation groans as it waits for the sons of God to be revealed. In its context the verse is also a challenge to the Jews who also thought that the world was just in their geographic location. Jesus was telling Nicodemus that Gods love is extensive and wide ranging

Romans 10:13,, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Those who do not call on the name of the Lord will not be saved.therefore those who do not call on Him are not elect!

2nd Peter 3:9.The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Peters letter is written to believers,some of whom have been misled by false teaching. Hes telling them that God is being patient with them that they return. The sense is the same as that said by Jesus in John 6:39

1st Timothy 2:3 and 4.... This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

These verses mean that God wants all types or all kinds of people from everywhere to be saved. Not all people come to God to be saved so If it meant that God wants every single person in the world to be saved and every single person in the world is not saved then it shows that God must have failed in his desire to save all men. but God never fails in what he sets out to do

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 04:24 PM

:wave: I will discuss the issue no further. :wave:

oworm

18th August 2005, 04:31 PM

:wave: I will discuss the issue no further. :wave:
Ok bye......................................Again:wave:

rnmomof7

18th August 2005, 05:42 PM

Present sound BIBLICAL evidence of exactly WHEN God became a LIAR......

I present the same challenge to you

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 [b]So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Is Salvation a work of the flesh and not an act of Gods mercy?

Is salvation mans decision + the cross =salvation?

Does man save himself by his own wise choice?
THAT is the decision placed in front of you

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law,[b] but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is salvation a work of the will of men or the grace and mercy of God?

PentecostalEvangelist

18th August 2005, 11:14 PM

I present the same challenge to you

Jhn 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me

Jhn 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:

Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:16 So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Tts 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Is Salvation a work of the flesh and not an act of Gods mercy?

Is salvation mans decision + the cross =salvation?

Does man save himself by his own wise choice?
THAT is the decision placed in front of you

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Is salvation a work of the will of men or the grace and mercy of God?

:wave: ..I will discuss the issue no further..

:) ..I leave you to your theory..

:prayer: Praying Fervently For You ALL...

...As I also Ask, That You ALL Also Pray :groupray: Fervently For Me...

NOT That I would accept your theory, but that GOD would lead me into ALL truth according to a definite Spiritual understanding of ALL of His everlasting Unchanging word.

IF GOD reveals to my heart that YOUR Theory is Biblically correct, through the revelation By His Spirit of adequate Biblical evidence, absolutely refuting all other Biblical passages in his word that are absolutely contrary to your theory that thre doctrine of election as it is presently taught IS Biblically sound, NOT in anyway refusing to make offer of the gift of salvation readily availableto anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, THEN I will gladly teach it as a sound Biblical truth and promote, and defend it faithfully.

Otherwise, I will fervently speak out against it anywhere and everywhere, to anyopne and everyone,and I will also pray even more fervently or it to fail completely.

You may feel this to be offensive, BUT I cannot pray for the success of any doctrine that I know in my heart is NOT a completely sound Biblical doctrine.

May YOU all be very richly and abundantly blessed in Christ Jesus......:wave:

Beoga

19th August 2005, 01:16 AM

So, Pentecostal Evangelist, you do not feel the need to substantiate your claim that Election is anti-Biblical while your belief is Biblical? You have come in here saying that we are in error, yet you feel that you do not have to support your claims with Scripture? You claim that we will not listen/ignore any verse but you have not even tried? We, on the other hand have taken time and shown you the respect by explaining our beliefs and providing Scripture for you? Why can't you show the same respect toward us and take the time to provide Scripture (besides 2 Timothy 3:15-17) that supports your beliefs and shows the error of election?

oworm

19th August 2005, 02:07 AM

:wave: ..I will discuss the issue no further..

Ok bye.................................. Yet again!

BTW how many times are you leaving?:scratch:

5solas

19th August 2005, 02:25 AM

BTW how many times are you leaving?:scratch:

I think he works like one of those.... ;)

http://wings.avkids.com/Book/Sports/Images/boomerang_05.gif

PentecostalEvangelist

19th August 2005, 02:29 AM

:wave: ..I will discuss the issue no further..

Ok bye.................................. Yet again!

BTW how many times are you leaving?:scratch:

Well If CERTAIN people in here would just shut up and leave me alone.....^_^

If You'd like I'll leave the forums for good, would THAT satisfy you?

I do have MUCH better things to do, for GOD than WASTE my time here.

Speaking about wasting time, I got my fanny royaly chewed out for asking this question on another forum, BUT I meant NO offense, and I mean none here, BUT on the average, how much time do you spend each day here in the forums, having Internet fellowship with other Christians, and how much time do you spend each day in personal fellowship with God each day?

BTW NONE of you are EVER going to change my beliefs, because Gods word is NEVER going to change.

I still want to point out very sincerely that I have never once meant that I think any of you are unsaved, and I hope you do not think I am unsaved, I mess up a lot, and I do it in very bad ways sometimes, YES I do get very depressed, and very discouraged, just pray for me please.

Bookworm, I'll leave if it will make you and the others in the forums feel better......:)

PentecostalEvangelist

19th August 2005, 02:35 AM

5solas, I find it very difficult to have sincere Christian fellowship with people who are as insulting as you were in your post.

BUT I forgive you.

I apologize to you all for having responded to rnmomof7's last post, I did say I would discuss the issue no further, and I was wrong for responding to the post.

I should certainly have stood true to my word, and left, BUT I did not do that, and I am very sorry.

5solas, your comments about me were completely uncalled for, You do not have to remind me of how stupid I am, I have to fight everyday of my life, against self hatred, even though I am a Christian, I still fight daily against that one thing because that is what the devil knows torments me, and I fight everyday, to NOT want to kill myself, and YOU saying what you did, just made it a little bit harder. :cry:

BUT as I said, I forgive you. :(

oworm

19th August 2005, 02:49 AM

[QUOTE=oworm]

[QUOTE]Well If CERTAIN people in here would just shut up and leave me alone.....^_^
If we shut up and leave you alone there wont be any point in your being here will there?

If You'd like I'll leave the forums for good, would THAT satisfy you?
No !

I do have MUCH better things to do, for GOD than WASTE my time here.
So why are you here?

Speaking about wasting time, I got my fanny royaly chewed out for asking this question on another forum, BUT I meant NO offense, and I mean none here,
We're a pretty thich skinned bunch. It takes a lot to get the feathers ruffled around here.

BUT on the average, how much time do you spend each day here in the forums, having Internet fellowship with other Christians, and how much time do you spend each day in personal fellowship with God each day? We all have seasons of fervent posting and debating. Some of us work at home and can afford the luxury of having the internet on all day.
My own personal devotions happen in the early part of the day. Fellowship with God is pretty much 24/7 since we are never out of His presence, but being as we are still sinners we sometimes fail to acknowledge Him in all we do. Still, its a great comfort to know that He is always faithful and watches over us all day.

BTW NONE of you are EVER going to change my beliefs, because Gods word is NEVER going to change.
Only God can make these kind of changes and yes Gods word never changes,but sometimes we do change in how we understand that word.

I still want to point out very sincerely that I have never once meant that I think any of you are unsaved, and I hope you do not think I am unsaved, I mess up a lot, and I do it in very bad ways sometimes, YES I do get very depressed, and very discouraged, just pray for me please.
Thankyou for sharing that and you can be assured i will pray for you as im sure others here are too!

Bookworm, I'll leave if it will make you and the others in the forums feel better......:)
Actually i dont think we would feel better if you left. Given that you are prone to depression and discouragment and that this seems to be the only forum you post in here at CF i think we would be more concerned if you left.

Please make yourself at home here and if you ever want to share anything of your thoughts and fears with us then please feel free. No one in SR resents you and you will always be welcome:)

5solas

19th August 2005, 04:38 AM

5solas, I find it very difficult to have sincere Christian fellowship with people who are as insulting as you were in your post.

BUT I forgive you.

........

5solas, your comments about me were completely uncalled for, You do not have to remind me of how stupid I am, I have to fight everyday of my life, against self hatred, even though I am a Christian, I still fight daily against that one thing because that is what the devil knows torments me, and I fight everyday, to NOT want to kill myself, and YOU saying what you did, just made it a little bit harder. :cry:

BUT as I said, I forgive you. :(

I am very sorry to have offended you :blush: - I regret this very much. Please accept my apologies. :bow:

You know, you would not be here if God did not want it to be that way.

So please accept my apologies and thank you for forgiving me :wave:

CCWoody

19th August 2005, 08:50 AM

IF GOD reveals to my heart that YOUR Theory is Biblically correct, through the revelation By His Spirit of adequate Biblical evidence, absolutely refuting all other Biblical passages in his word that are absolutely contrary to your theory that thre doctrine of election as it is presently taught IS Biblically sound, NOT in anyway refusing to make offer of the gift of salvation readily availableto anyone and everyone, anywhere and everywhere, THEN I will gladly teach it as a sound Biblical truth and promote, and defend it faithfully.

The doctrine of Absolute Predestination and our faith has been believed by Christians for the last 2000 years. Your beliefs fall under a category of something invented relatively recently. You need to consider this rather soberly. If your doctrine is the doctrine of the Bible, then Satan has prevailed against the truth for nearly 1900 years. So much for the gates of hell not prevailing against the Pillar of Truth, the Church.
You need to lose your attitude. This forum is called "Ask a Calvinist." That means you are free to ask questions and then listen to our answers and then ask questions to get clarification about what we believe and why. Nobody insists that you agree with it. You can call it Satan's child for all I care. But you are not going to get very far the way you are going about it now.
Lighten up, already. Your suppose to have fistfulls more of the anointing of the Spirit. You'd think that would make you happier than us wicked Calvinists who can't have much of the Spirit, if any. I'll tell you what. Go find your vingate 80's album of the best of Carmen and 2 minutes into the "Holy Ghost Hop!" you'll forget all about us mean old Calvinists. [that's a joke son]
I used to be Pentecostal, like you, at least I used to be in the Pentecostal world. Then, one day, something amazing happened. I picked up my Bible and started studying it every day. I have been doing so every day since then and have completed a yearly study every year since that day. I post occationally and loosely host The Reformed room Bible study (http://www.christianforums.com/t687898-the-reformed-room-bible-study.html) You are welcome to join it. What I found was amazing. You see, I couldn't reconcile what was being taught from the pulpit with what I was finding in the Bible. Eventually, I came to discover that this theology I found in the Bible, this gospel, had a modern day nickname called Calvinism.
Calvinism is not a theology of a handful of verses; it is a theology encompassing everying single verse in the whole Bible. If you wish to actually discuss and debate Scriptures, then here is a thread I've started recently concerning Election: Shredding the myth of Election by foreseen faith one verse at a time (http://www.christianforums.com/t1988243-shredding-the-myth-of-election-by-foreseen-faith-one-verse-at-a-time.html)

PentecostalEvangelist

19th August 2005, 01:57 PM

:wave:

cygnusx1

19th August 2005, 10:31 PM

[QUOTE=PentecostalEvangelist]

BTW how many times are you leaving?:scratch:

:D ....... some Rock bands are like that! :P

Rick Otto

20th August 2005, 09:22 AM

Cher's "Farewell Tour II"^_^

Rolf Ernst

20th August 2005, 05:46 PM

Behe's Boy

20th August 2005, 07:00 PM

:prayer: Stop takin the bait ya'll.... And who said Calvinists weren't gullible... :D

Godzchild

20th August 2005, 11:02 PM

Jon_

20th August 2005, 11:21 PM

Hi I'm seriously here to ask questions re:calvinism

I have actually never heard of this movement till I started posting on Christian forums (yes I live under a rock ;) ) As I started posting on said forums I was accused of being a calvinist once or twice adn I had no idea what they were on about LOL

So now I'm here to ask about your doctrine and what it's all about.

So far, I've gleaned from this thread that you guys believe that we are predestined and elected by God, having foreknown who would choose to be HIS and who would not? Would that be correct?
I wouldn't classify Calvinism as "movement" because it's neither a) new, nor b) idealistic. Calvinism is merely the proper theology of the Bible. That being said, we would love to tell you what God's Word says about his predestinating love for you.

You are indeed correct that one aspect of Calvinism is predestination. I should clarify that we believe predestination is done completely at God's will and not based on any merit in the elect. That is, all theologies acknowledge predestination in one form or another. They have to because the Bible explicitly uses this word in a number of places. No other theology acknowledges that predestination is based solely on God's choice, though. They all insist that we must first believe before God chooses us, which is not what the Bible teaches.

If you are interested in discussing doctrine, I would suggest starting a new thread here in the Ask a Calvinist forum. This one has had some... difficulties.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon