EASTERN ORHTODOX "TOLL-HOUSES"

[MORTANIUS]

In a recent conversation with a Orthodox Christian friend, we discussed repentance and afterlife.

He pointed out something I have never heard about before, "TOLL-HOUSES"

He explained that the Orthodox view of this belief is that for each catagory of sin, as the soul ascends to Heaven it is faced with spiritual toll-houses where demons accuse us of our sins and where angels defend us by witnessing to our repentance of these particular sins.

At each Toll-House, as the soul ascends, if at any time the soul is found guilty of any sin, it is cast down into hell.

I don't remember rightly, but I believe that he mentioned that an Orthodox Monk named Effriam has expressed this view and that even many Saints have noted these spiritual Toll-Houses.

I was very confused about such a belief and all I know is that if repentance was as severe and rigid as my friend mentioned, wouldn't have Jesus Christ mentioned these "Toll-Houses" ?

On one hand I can see a structure that helps us organize our thoughts about sin and repentance, but I didn't know rightly what to tell him about these Toll-Houses he kept mentioning.

Has anyone ever heard of such a belief throughout any of the early Church writings? I haven't, but maybe I just didn't notice.

I wonder?

[Joykins]

One of the Orthodox posters here sent me a link. Here it is. There are footnotes.

http://www.sfaturiortodoxe.ro/orthodox/orthodox_advices_life_after_death.htm

I find it an oddly disturbing teaching.

[ByzantineDixie]

Well, one of the first things you can tell your friend is belief in Toll Houses is NOT a universal Orthodox belief. Second...these are generally seen as an allegory but is not meant to be taken literally....some see these as a good allegory, others do not.

Here are some capital "O" Orthodox opinions on the matter that may help your friend. (I haven't read all of these but have taken them from another source...so let me know if you run into something inappropriate.)


http://constans_wright.tripod.com/notolls.html (http://constans_wright.tripod.com/notolls.html)
http://www.new-ostrog.org//gnostic/ (http://www.new-ostrog.org//gnostic/)
http://www.new-ostrog.org/tollhouseletter.html (http://www.new-ostrog.org/tollhouseletter.html)
http://www.new-ostrog.org/vitalyletter.html (http://www.new-ostrog.org/vitalyletter.html)
http://www.new-ostrog.org/return_tollhouses.html (http://www.new-ostrog.org/return_tollhouses.html)

[KagomeShuko]

So, Rose, I'm gathering from glancing at these sites that it's more of a gnostic belief than an orthodox belief. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

p.s. - Wikipedia has no useful articles on these "toll-houses."

[ByzantineDixie]

Well...it all depends on which side of the fence one sits in this debate. There are surely some Orthodox who would not agree with calling the belief Gnostic.

[Joykins]

So, what I'm getting from this is that the tollhouses are controversial.

[ctobola]

Although it certainly meets one of the criteria that indicates gnosticism -- a belief system that presents the spiritual realm as having hurdles and labrynths that a believer can only navigate by having the proper beliefs / secrets, which are provided only by that particular religion.

-Cloy


Well...it all depends on which side of the fence one sits in this debate. There are surely some Orthodox who would not agree with calling the belief Gnostic.

[xristos.anesti]

Many years,

Orthodox, generally, do not have to agree on every single theologumenom (and we use that right). Theologumenom is such theological theory that is not catholic-according to the whole-an oppinion held always, everywhere and by all (dogmatised by the mind of the Church).

There are some theoria held by saints, whose theological instances vary between rare and almost catholic. Every such theoria is influenced by the mind of the Church, that is acceptance or rejection by the whole living body of the Church.

You see, today we sit and say VI ecumenical council declared this and that... but it probably took ages before that council became VI EC. At the time it was just an oppinion of the group of bishops. There were times when majority of the bishops were arians (imagine that, your bishop is Jehova's Witness brrrrr), and they had a lot of councils (even with standards of ecumenical councils), but by the mind of the Church, their heretical opinions stayed just that, little bad heretical ideas of people that will gnash their teeth for ever and ever....

Mind of the Church is what one can call the will of the Holy Spirit, a Good Guide and Paracleta.

So, there is always some theoria in praxis, but time proves whether it becomes catholic (the true meaning of the word, accepted or according to the whole). The ideas that are not accepted are not necessarilly heretical, they just were not what is believed always, everywhere and by all.

What does this always, everywhere and by all means? Well, we really do not define any new ideas, they are old - just have not been defined before. For example Orthodox Dogma of Theosis has not been defined until St. Gregory Palamas, but it is as Orthodox as is Our Father, they (both) come from the same source.

After this little introduction, let me say that Aerial Toll Houses, are just that, another theologumenom. Some hold it to be literall, some to be theoretical, some - not to be. The Church has not made her mind up.. and the way things are done under the sunrise, you might wait for a while before anyone can give you any answer about it and be able to define what it is and what it is not.

I, for one, have not made my mind up... nor I will... for a while.

God bless.

[MORTANIUS]

It did sound gnostic but it isn't.

However, it didn't sound like anything I've ever heard any Martyrs or Saints directly state before. More importantly, something that rigid in repentance would have been taught directly by Christ himself through the Holy Scriptures.

I appreciate everyones response so far, and judging from my friends other beliefs that seem to be in conflict with other Orthodox Church's, I wouldn't be surprised this is a controversy within Orthodoxy.

I did however see in such teachings that when we repent to God, we truly do have much to account for.

I was actually disturbed at the rigidness of such a concept and even found it very discouraging, even though I'm sure that its not intended to be so.

Once again, thanks for the links for those who posted them. Very insightful.

[C.F.W. Walther]

I don't know about the "toll houses" but the cookies are GREAT!




:amen: :amen: :amen:

[cenimo]

Sounds like purgatory on steroids or a religious version of the old video game Kung Fu Master, where you had to fight different people on each level.

This "toll house" concept seems an attempt to diminish John 3:16 (as does purgatory).

Sounds like yet another "control the people through fear" operation - which seem always to be combined with works based salvation.

[SPALATIN]

Sounds like purgatory on steroids or a religious version of the old video game Kung Fu Master, where you had to fight different people on each level.

This "toll house" concept seems an attempt to diminish John 3:16 (as does purgatory).

Sounds like yet another "control the people through fear" operation - which seem always to be combined with works based salvation.

And all this time I thought you were talking about some new special chocolate chip cookie. :scratch: ;)

[MORTANIUS]

Mmmmmmm Chocolate Chip Cookie!:yum:

[knee-v]

I emailed my priest about this, and this was his response:

"Dear Joel
Thanks for email
Kathy forwarded it to me.
The toll house thing is always being asked to me.
It is not a part of Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, though some claim it is.
We studied it in seminary critically speaking.
Some converts put this forward as Orthodox teaching and it is not.
Some Orthodox though do believe it, citing prominent people who promoted the
concept.
It is very clear in the study of the scriptures that God did not tell us
everything/all the details about what happens immediately after death.
The toll house concept at most is allegory.
The claim that there are toll houses that u need to go through is
unsubstantiated, though there is a spiritual truth that we need to be pure
to enter the Kingdom
Will you be here Wed evening? If so, we can discuss. Bring it up and we
can talk about it in great detail
I suggest dismissing the toll house concept.
I do not know any clergy/theologians who take it seriously.
I do know some have written books mistakenly as if it were true and rabidly
defending it, I believe foolishly, since it has nothing to do with our
salvation
God bless u
Fr T"

[MORTANIUS]

Knee-V, thanks for the response. I also asked my friend about these concerns that are raised by his own fellow Orthodox Christians.

He told me that this is not a theory and comes from Spiritual Fathers of Orthodoxy.

Either way, I did tell him I can appreciate the spiritual component of such a theory, but not its rigidness that distorts Christs other teachings.

[Colabomb]

It seems to me to speak against grace.

[MORTANIUS]

It seems to me to speak against grace.

Please do remember, as I do not agree with "Toll Houses" we must also be aware that Gods grace doesn't save us if we refuse God.

Just as a sinner can become a saint, just as easily a saint can become a sinner.

Lets never become overconfident with ourselves and do what is required of us.

[Colabomb]

Please do remember, as I do not agree with "Toll Houses" we must also be aware that Gods grace doesn't save us if we refuse God.

Just as a sinner can become a saint, just as easily a saint can become a sinner.

Lets never become overconfident with ourselves and do what is required of us.
Agreed