Is Torah-Obedience Necessary for Salvation? [Archive]

Bracy

7th August 2005, 01:39 PM

In some of the other threads on this board, I’ve seen several people mention that “Torah obedience is not necessary for salvation.” But is this really true? Is this what the Scriptures teach us?

Deuteronomy 6:24-25: And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as at this day. And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.

According to Deuteronomy 6:25, “righteousness” is defined as “observance of all of HaShem’s Torah commandments.” Verse 24 tells us that He will preserve our lives on the condition that we obey His commandments. The implication here is that if we don’t keep His commandments, He will not preserve our lives.

This concept is repeated over and over again by the prophet Ezekiel:

Ezekiel 18:24-26: But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die. Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israel; Is not my way equal? are not your ways unequal? When a righteous [man] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die.

According to Ezekiel, if a “righteous” man (i.e. one who has been accredited with the status of “righteous”) turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity (willful Torah disobedience), he will die. We already know from Deuteronomy 6:24-25 that “righteousness” is observance of HaShem’s commandments, therefore we know that “turning from righteousness” means “turning from His commandments.” We are then told that the penalty for this is death.

Ezekiel goes on to tell us:

Ezekiel 18:27-28: Again, when the wicked [man] turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Here, Ezekiel very explicitly tells us that if a wicked man turns aways (i.e. “repents”) from his wickedness, he shall save his life. So, according to Ezekiel, “salvation” is entirely dependant upon one’s actions (i.e. Torah obedience), and not merely upon “belief.”

Is this concept repeated in the “New Testament?” You bet it is:

James 2:14: What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

According to James, “faith” without works cannot save.

James 2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

James further explains to us that it is by our works that we are justified, and not by “faith” alone.

Paul is in agreement with this concept:

Romans 2:13: (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Here, Paul echoes the same statement as that of James, telling us that it is the doers of the law, and not merely hearers who are justified. In other words, doing the Law is a requirement for justification.

But how can this be? Wasn’t it Paul who told us “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: the gift of God? (Ephesians 2:8) Is Paul contradicting himself? Not at all! Let’s remember the oath that we made to HaShem:

Exodus 24:7: And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do (Hebrew: asah, "to do," "fashion," "accomplish," "make," and be obedient (Hebrew: sh'ma, "to hear," "listen to," "obey" ).

At Mount Sinai, we made a solemn promise to HaShem that we would not only hear (i.e. “believe in”) His commandments, but that we would also do them. Furthermore, Yeshua held us to our oath to ”hear” and “obey:”:

Luke 11:27-28: And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked. But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep (i.e. “do”) it.

Yeshua explicitly tells us that they who are “blessed” are those who hear the word of Elohim and do it.

So how does this agree with the passages that tell us that we are saved by “faith?” I think that the only logical explanation is that we do not understand how the Scriptures define “faith.”

"Faith" means "unwavering acceptance, faithfulness, and trust in the authority of HaShem in that we are willing to submit wholeheartedly to the rationality of His Written commandments."

This doesn’t mean that we “work our way into heaven,” or that our works makes us righteous-enough to inherit eternal life. It means that if we [i][i]commit ourselves to living a Torah-submissive [i]lifestyle, then Yeshua’s blood is applied to us, and our sins are forgiven. No amount of works can make up for our sins, we must receive Yeshua’s atoning blood. But, that blood is only applied to us if we demonstrate our faith through obedience. It isn’t our own “righteousness” that saves us, but Yeshua’s. His blood is applied to us and atones for our sins if we keep our vow to hear and obey. This doesn’t mean “perfect Torah obedience,” but a commitment to follow the path. If we fall down, we repent and pick ourselves back up and continue to follow the path. We carry on the struggle to be perfect, but that doesn't mean that we achieve perfection. It is a commitment on our part to become more and more like Yeshua. The more Torah-obedience we become, the more like Him we become. Some may reach 10 percent of the way there, others may reach 90% percent, but the imporant thing is that both are committed to doing the best they can.

As Yeshua said:

Matthew 13:23: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth ; which also [i]beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Some may bear fruit a hundred fold, some sixty, and some thirty. Our salvation is not dependant on how much fruit we bear, but on whether or not we bear fruit at all.

Bracy

7th August 2005, 01:52 PM

In my post above, I ended by saying that our salvation is dependant on whether or not be bear fruit -- it isn't dependant on how much fruit we bear, but on whether or not we bear fruit at all.

Yeshua tells us:

Matthew 7:19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Since Yeshua commanded us to "bear fruit" and warned us that “every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire,” it might be wise to take a closer look at what He meant by “bearing good fruit.”

Let’s also remember what “Bible” existed in Yeshua's day. If someone today were to go around from city to city, claiming to be the Messiah, would you listen to him? On what basis would you make a determination on whether or not he is the Messiah? You would compare his words with those in the “Bible,” would you not? Do you think that the Jews of the 1st-century didn’t do the same and compare Yeshua's words with those in their own “Bibles?” Could Yeshua have contradicted anything in the “Bible” of His day?

Since the “Old Testament” was the only “Bible” that existed in Yeshua's day (there was no “New Testament” at the time), let’s look and see if we can find in it what Yeshua meant by “bearing good fruit.”

First, let’s look at Yeshua's words:

Luke 6:43: "For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.

In Hebraic thought, a good tree is a tree that produces the fruit of the divine instructions. If one is living by a code other than the Hebraic contract of Sinai, then his fruit will not be good, according to the biblical definition:

Proverbs 11:30: The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And he who is wise wins souls.

Explained conversely, the righteous will produce fruit from a tree of life. In Hebraic thinking, the “tree of life” is the Torah:

Proverbs 3:18: She a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy that retaineth her.

Proverbs 15:4: A wholesome tongue [i]a tree of life: but perverseness therein a breach in the spirit.

Since the “tree of life” is Torah in Hebraic thinking, then our righteousness will produce its fruit thereof. Scripture confirms this:

Deuteronomy 6:25: "It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the LORD our God, just as He commanded us.

Now, let’s look at the term “good” as in “good fruit.” In biblical and rabbinic literature, the term “good” is synonymous with the word “righteous.” From Proverbs 2:20, we get this:

Proverbs 2:20: So you will walk in the way of [i]good men And keep to the paths of the [i]righteous.

From the Babylonian Talmud:

…for it is said: “And God saw the light, that it was good;” and ‘good’ means only the righteous, for it is said: Say ye of the righteous that he is good (Isaiah 3:10).Chagigah 12a].

Those who hold to the teaching of HaShem are like trees of life and will yield good or righteous fruit. Those who do not hold to HaShem's teachings produce bad or rotten fruit. Good or righteous fruit is defined as a life of fruitfulness under the divine instructions from Mount Sinai:

Galatians 5:22-23: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Ezekiel 36:27: And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

This idea is validated in the next section of Yeshua’s narrative:

Matthew 7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Based on the above words of Yeshua, we need to ask: ”What is HaShem’s will so that I may do it?” The will of HaShem is revealed in the “living oracles” of the Mosaic Covenant…

Acts 7:38: "This is the one who was in the congregation in the wilderness together with the angel who was speaking to him on [b]Mount Sinai, and {who was} with our fathers; and he received living oracles to pass on to you.

…words taught by Moses, upheld by Hebrew prophets, and set on a firm foundation by Yeshua, our Messiah:

John 7:16-19: So Jesus answered them and said, "My teaching is not Mine, but His who sent Me. "If anyone is willing to do His will, he will know of the teaching, whether it is of God or {whether} I speak from Myself. "He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who is seeking the glory of the One who sent Him, He is true, and there is no unrighteousness in Him. "Did not Moses give you the Law, and {yet} none of you carries out the Law? Why do you seek to kill Me?"

Allow me to paraphrase these hard words of Yeshua:

”I have come to speak the words of the Mosaic covenant which HaShem gave to Moshe and to the Israelite people. These words are not mine, they belong to the One who gave them. And if anyone is willing to do and hear these words they will know if they are from HaShem. I do not speak for my own renown nor have I spoken anything new. I only speak what HaShem has told me, and in Him there is no unrighteousness; He is true. Did not Moshe give you the Torah from HaShem? Then why do you refuse to carry it out and then seek to kill me because I have come to bring you back to it?”

This is further supported by Stephen in his Acts 7:38 defense which I’ve already quoted above (“he received living oracles to pass on to you”). The Mosaic covenant is a living eternal contract, which is why Yeshua then follows His statement with this:

Matthew 7:22: Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.

The term “lawlessness” is an ancient Hebraic expression referring to deviant Torah behavior. One may have all knowledge of Torah but without inward and outward action, it is lawlessness, pure and simple. The Greek word for “lawlessness” in this passage is anomia (Strong’s 458) which is derivative of anomos (Strong’s 459) which means:

1) Destitute of the Mosaic Law.
2) Departing from the Law, a violator of the Law, lawless, wicked.

Yeshua is telling us that when we live a Torah-practicing life (keeping HaShem’s Holy Days, eating kosher, avoiding sexual immorality, taking care of the weak and poor, showing justice and mercy, etc…), then we know HaShem and HaShem knows us. His will is that we practice Torah everyday in our lives. HaShem's will is not some great mystery; it is living by His words in trusting faithfulness.

Bananna

7th August 2005, 10:03 PM

Thanks, nice proof. Very useful for the basic pricipals for My daughter who was asking.

Torah is living and active sharper than a two edged sword.

bananna

MyLittleWonders

7th August 2005, 11:22 PM

Thanks for posting that Bracy. My husband and I am coming more and more to the realization that Torah is life and life is in Torah. By walking in Torah, in complete faith in HaShem, we will have life. It is such a reassuring thought. It's like this, for me: I have faith that HaShem will deliver me. I show that faith by walking in the statutes/teachings/laws that He set forth before the foundation of the world was laid. Strictly from a medical standpoint, keeping Torah will help keep you from many ills that befall this world - the food, the infection, the sexual immorality.

Mikhail

8th August 2005, 10:12 AM

In some of the other threads on this board, I’ve seen several people mention that “Torah obedience is not necessary for salvation.” But is this really true? Is this what the Scriptures teach us?

It is a bit like saying I just paid $60K for this car why should I have to keep paying anything more to drive it around each week.

For the slow of mind I am talking about fuel.

How observant should I be well just depends on how far you want to go with doing the Fathers will.
When I was a child I spoke like a child but now no longer being a child I speak not as a child but as a mature man.
Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

debi b

8th August 2005, 12:03 PM

Devarim 6
4 Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord;
5 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.
6 And these words, which I command you this day, shall be in your heart;

It is interesting to note that there are several places where the singular mitzvah/commandment is used but is translated as plural mitzvot/commandments. If you check the standard translations these go back and forth – some singular, some plural. But I think it is clear that the commandment is to love Adonai.

Devarim 6
25 And it shall be accounted virtue in us, if we take care to do all these commandments (should be singular – commandment = TO LOVE HIM) before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.

Devarim 7
11 You shall therefore keep the commandments (should be singular – commandment = TO LOVE HIM), and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command you this day, to do them.

Devarim 11
22 For if you shall diligently keep all these commandments (should be singular – commandment) which I command you, to do them (should be singular – it NOT THEM), to love the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, and to hold fast to him;

It is easy to get lost in the details sometimes. Yeshua said – if you love me you will obey me. Our obedience is the evidence of our love. This we demonstrate by walking in his ways and holding fast to HIM :)

Bananna

8th August 2005, 12:21 PM

Hmmmmm
since in hebrew the verb and noun have to have agreement perhaps there is more to it than you precieve. Loving God is "keeping all he commands you to do"

Like God is Echad
Torah is Echad

JMO
bananna

debi b

8th August 2005, 12:58 PM

To me it is more along the lines of which came - first the chicken or the egg? We obey because we love. If we don't love how can we obey? The evidence of our love IS our obedience. What we are commanded to do is love Him. THEN we demonstrate that love by XYZ.

shmuel

8th August 2005, 01:40 PM

It is interesting to note that there are several places where the singular mitzvah/commandment is used but is translated as plural mitzvot/commandments. If you check the standard translations these go back and forth – some singular, some plural. But I think it is clear that the commandment is to love Adonai.

Devarim 6
25 And it shall be accounted virtue in us, if we take care to do all these commandments (should be singular – commandment = TO LOVE HIM) before the Lord our God, as he has commanded us.

Devarim 7
11 You shall therefore keep the commandments (should be singular – commandment = TO LOVE HIM), and the statutes, and the judgments, which I command you this day, to do them.

Devarim 11
22 For if you shall diligently keep all these commandments (should be singular – commandment) which I command you, to do them (should be singular – it NOT THEM), to love the Lord your God, to walk in all his ways, and to hold fast to him;

Hmmmmm
since in hebrew the verb and noun have to have agreement perhaps there is more to it than you precieve. Loving God is "keeping all he commands you to do"

The subject and verb must agree in number (and gender when there are distinct forms), but here "mitzvah" is the direct object. There is no sort of rule for agreement in this case.

In 6:25 and 11:22 the word "hamitzvah" is modified by "kol" (all), literally "all the commandment", which in standard English is probably better translated as "commandments". In 7:11 "hamitvah" is paralleled with "hachuqim" and "hamishpatim" both of which are plural. Hence, there is a rational for translating as "commandments" in this case also.

Just my 2 cents!

S

Charles YTK

8th August 2005, 01:47 PM

I finally got some time to read the article. Good words Bracy.

I think some of us who say that our salvation is not due to works but faith, simply mean that we do not earn it. It is the free gift of God. But it comes with a second gift, living in righteousness. When we look at the Exodus God saves the people first by their faith in applying the blood on the door post, he delivers them from Pagan things of Egypt, but he does not take them immediately to the promised land. He takes them to the Mountain to give them the law which teaches us righteousness. We have to make that stop and do what he tells us in order to be ready to enter the place of promise (the kingdom) and the place of worshipping in his presence. (The ordained priesthood and from the heart) All this preparation is Sanctification and that is living righteously according to Gods will and wisdom which is expressed and revealed in his word, Torah.

The words of Messiah in Matt 7:21-23 should be the most sobering words the Church could ever read, but it seems that their hearing is dull. And when I have posted this message on other Christian forums there is a mob of angry people who call for may blood and I get banned from their fellowship. This has happened on several occasions in Churhes as well. The Church does not want to hear this message. They want to exercise their own will and not Gods. Whey want to make up their own Gods and Godesses and worship them and not Adonai.
All this is really dangerous stuff. I posted a thread called "Discerning the Antichrist." It's proabaly back on page 3 or 4 by now, but I think it is a nice compliment to what you have posted here. Hope you can read it some time.

Thanks for sharing this lesson and may Ha Shem strengthen us with faith to do His will,

Charles

Tishri1

8th August 2005, 03:08 PM

That was probably me that said that Bracy....not that I think we are excused from Torah Observance at all....in fact it was refreshing to see someone arguing the point on THIS side of the fence...I was putting it out there since we usually get the same old debate on the OTHER side of the fence (those against or anti-Torah/Law observance) and I was simply trying to ward THEM off...

You are all speaking in agreement to me but no one has said that it is Yeshua's blood that paid the price for our sin and salvation ....and that we could not earn any of it thru Torah observance alone....yet once we do become a sheep of His Fold ....then yes our light shines brightly by what we do with that gift...meaning obedience to His Word, being submitted to His Torah...does that make sence?:pray:

Charles YTK

8th August 2005, 03:59 PM

Tishri1

8th August 2005, 04:19 PM

gabriele

8th August 2005, 04:25 PM

What usually happens in these discussions when a Torahless person comes in, is that they say that if you keep the law you are adding something to faith as if the blood of messaih is not good enough. However what did paul mean when he said:

PHP 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, [13] for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Faith is not opposite of obedeince. One can not be obedient without faith first, to open the way to Ha Shem so that we know who he is and then enter into obedience. And yet those who are Torahless will be obedient to Church doctrine and traditions no matter how against Torah thy are.

The foundation for salvation is to believe that Jesus/Yeshua is the Christ/Messiah.
When one realizes that Yeshua is the Messiah, he or she should take the next step of repentence, and after, baptism.

I believe the next step is to start learning God's Law and grow in grace and love, and learn from God to love others. The Law gives freedom and I believe the one reason why so many believers struggle with sin is because they are not taught from the perfect Law of liberty.

There have been many wonderful obedient believers who never really learned Torah but with the Holy Spirit's guidance, lived a worthy life of Yeshua - not stealing, lying, murdering, etc. They may have never followed Passover instructions but they were righteous non the less.

We must present Torah to people as the perfect Law of Liberty that it is - if we keep telling them they need it for salvation; they won't listen to us at all. Some may be fooled, but many who know what happened at the Council of Jerusalem will see through it.

gabriele

Charles YTK

8th August 2005, 04:34 PM

MyLittleWonders

8th August 2005, 05:00 PM

I think too, the idea of salvation, and what that means needs to be examined in light of Torah and what Yeshua taught. Is salvation a one-time thing? Are we "poof" saved and then begin a life of following Torah, or is our salvation, like the verse in Philippians hints at, a life-long journey along the path that God laid out? In other words, are those who say that they are "saved" by the blood of Yeshua/Jesus really saved if they don't strive to live a holy life, which in my opinion means a life striving to walk in Torah as Yeshua walked? Repentance is a turn from sin. How do we know what sin is? It is lawlessness, which is Torahlessness. If someone says they love God and are saved by Yeshua's blood, but then does things in their life contrary to what God instructs in Torah, are they really saved?

"But if a man is righteous and practices justice and righteousness,

6and does not (E (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20856E))eat at the mountain shrines or (F (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20856F))lift up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, or (G (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20856G))defile his neighbor's wife or approach a woman during her menstrual period--

7if a man does not oppress anyone, but (H (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20857H))restores to the debtor his pledge, (I (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20857I))does not commit robbery, but (J (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20857J))gives his bread to the hungry and covers the naked with clothing,

8if he does not lend money on (K (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20858K))interest or take (L (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20858L))increase, if he keeps his hand from iniquity and (M (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20858M))executes true justice between man and man, 9if he walks in (N (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20859N))My statutes and My ordinances so as to deal faithfully--(O (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20859O))he is righteous and will surely (P (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20859P))live," declares the Lord GOD.

When the son has practiced (AA (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20869AA))justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live.
20"The person who (AB (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20870AB))sins will die

30"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "(AP (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20880AP))Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.

31"(AQ (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20881AQ))Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a (AR (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20881AR))new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel? 32"For I have (AS (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=49#cen-NASB-20882AS))no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies," declares the Lord GOD. "Therefore, repent and live."

Those are just a few examples, imo, that show our salvation isn't a one-time thing. Yeshua speaks of enduring to the end. God seems, again imo, to make it clear that we are to continue in a path of righteousness and continue to turn from any sin (lawlessness) that is in our lives.

Charles YTK

8th August 2005, 07:34 PM

He is gracious to us Gentiles because we did not grow up in the light of Torah, he gives us little bits at a time rather than hit us with all of it at once which would discourage us. I believe this was the point of the Acts 15 decision. It was to make an initial display of having turned from Paganism (The 4 directives) and then they were to get into fellowship in the local synagogue and learn Torah week by week. Then in another place we see where some people were not progressing too well and Paul corrects them saying that they should be eating strong meat but instead they were still on milk. And that he desired to move on from the basics of salvation baptisms and such. Progress, even slow moves is OK. What shuts it all down and kills it is self-righteousness that says I am saved, I got Jaysus so I got it all. He saved me just the way I am, so I don't need to change a thing. And then as Christian doctrine sets in Torah is completely abolished in their heart where the spirit desires to write it.

In the language of the Hebrews the heart is where the decisions are made, where we know what to do. I know it my heart what God wants of me. The head on the other hand was the place of life. If you wanted to kill a man you had to smash his head (stoning) or cut his head off, then he was dead.

The Spirit writes the Torah on the heart, the place where we make all of our decisions.

Charles

visionary

8th August 2005, 09:12 PM

We can discuss all the ramifications of this and that, but it still all boils down to... hearing the voice of God and following. If you die, and God calls you to walk up, and you roll over, then you miss the first ressurrection and I am sure that the second time He calls, it is with even louder voice. That goes for if you are alive, and God comes in all His glory and because you have never experience His voice, His Holiness, His glory you will ask the rocks to fall on you for you will fear God and what you have been taught to believe, which is the wrath to come. Believing lies causes you to have false concepts of God, false relatiosnhip understanding with God, and crying to mama is not going to help even if it Yeshua's mom.

Tishri1

8th August 2005, 10:05 PM

Vaneeza Malkah

8th August 2005, 11:09 PM

I actually think that part of the plan(of Satan's) from the begining was to pit Torah and Grace against each other to create a split and keep the Christians from joining in (too legalistic) and the Jews in fear of letting them join in (too Pagan)....

If Torah and Grace were buddies and linked together as they should be...then the door would be wide open for both groups to grow up in the Father's instruction and favor together.:groupray:

Exactly my thoughts. I feel that the grace of the passover lamb has always been in exhistance. Yeshua says if you love me, you will keep my commands. Grace is attained through love, how do we show our love? Through obedience.

Tishri1

9th August 2005, 01:16 AM

Exactly my thoughts. I feel that the grace of the passover lamb has always been in exhistance. Yeshua says if you love me, you will keep my commands. Grace is attained through love, how do we show our love? Through obedience.my thoughts exactly too hehehe^_^

gabriele

9th August 2005, 04:35 PM

gabriele

9th August 2005, 04:43 PM

But what of those who are called "Christain " but make idols to bow down to and pray to, and who make godesses out of others who are not God and pray to them and who teach other not to keep Torah because it is abolished? They may be living a moral life, but I know of plenty of good athiests who are also moral and live as good and charitable loving people. We an't draw the line that God sees. But we might guess where it is and advize others to be careful about that line.

Well, we know that God does not require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. The problem was brought up and God fixed it at the Council of Jerusalem.

To even suggest that people like Billy Graham, or Adrian Rodgers, or Joni Erickson Tada are hell bound because they have not kept a Passover is blaspheme.
In Yeshua, ALL the righteous requirements of the Law are met. THIS is what makes us righteous and allows us to inherit the Kingdom, not because we try to keep shabbat and passover when the opportunity arises.

gabriele

Charles YTK

9th August 2005, 05:40 PM

Well, we know that God does not require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. The problem was brought up and God fixed it at the Council of Jerusalem.

Why did Paul say this?

PHP 2:12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, [13] for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

What does it mean to work out your own salvation through living according to Gods instructions, his will and wisdom shown to us in Torah?

Charles

Devasha

9th August 2005, 09:17 PM

Is Torah-Obedience Necessary for Salvation?

Personally, I'd rather be safe than sorry. :sorry:

I remember having this type of discussion about "baptism" back when I was in mainstream Christendom, especially in light of:

Mark 16:16

The way I figured it, I had nothing to lose by being baptized, but in fact I might lose everything if I dug my heels in and refused.

One thing that so many have lost sight of is "fear". We are to fear YHVH just as we are to love Him. It is two sides of the same coin. And fear of Him is absolutely necessary, not only because of the instruction to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, but because fear of Him is merely the beginning of wisdom:

Psalm 111:10

If we don't have fear and trembling at the thought of coming face to face with the Almighty King of the universe, we are experiencing a lack of humility IMO.

I remember an email that went around a while back describing a situation where someone got to sit down and talk to God and ask him some burning questions about suffering in the world or what-not, and it immediately occurred to me that if, in fact, you had the opportunity to actually really and truly be in the presence of the Alpha and the Omega, Creator of the heaven and earth, you wouldn't be interrogating Him about anything--you'd be dropping prostate to the ground burying your nose in the dirt, and if you had any breath left to you at all, you'd be crying out for mercy, that is if you weren't already running away in sheer terror.

Even one reading through the Scriptures shows this was the prevalent response to even a hint of His presence.

This passage I believe is crucial to gaining understanding:

Hebrews 10:26-31

The whole point to repentance is that we are to stop sinning ("Go, and sin no more.") If we are truly repentant, then we will not continue to deliberately sin. Anything else is trampling the Son underfoot, treating the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing, and insulting the Spirit of grace. Can't get much plainer than that.

It is pride and arrogance that insists on keeping Yeshua on the stake and ourselves on the throne. Humility puts Him on the throne and ourselves up on the execution stake. :bow:

Charles YTK

9th August 2005, 09:29 PM

Yes, "Your sins are forgiven, Go and sin no more."

What is sin? He who sins breaks the Torah.

"You histoy of breaking the comandments of Torah are forgiven. Go and from now on, quit breaking the commandments of Torah.

MyLittleWonders

9th August 2005, 09:53 PM

Well said Charles ... go and from now on, quit breaking the commandments of Torah!

Amen!!!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Charles YTK again.

Wags

9th August 2005, 10:02 PM

To even suggest that people like Billy Graham, or Adrian Rodgers, or Joni Erickson Tada are hell bound because they have not kept a Passover is blaspheme.

In Yeshua, ALL the righteous requirements of the Law are met. THIS is what makes us righteous and allows us to inherit the Kingdom, not because we try to keep shabbat and passover when the opportunity arises.

gabriele

Blasphemy is very strong word to use.... Yeshua tells us that in that day (his return) many will say to him didn't we do great things in your name, and he will say - get away from you workers of lawlessness.

Trying to keep Shabbat or Pesach becuase it is convient or "when the opportunity arises" says that we are keeping it for our own purposes and not from a place of loving obeidence to the one who created us. We were created to do the will of the Father.

visionary

9th August 2005, 10:16 PM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Devasha again.....and I so wanted to let you know how well you put it.

Vaneeza Malkah

9th August 2005, 10:43 PM

Well, we know that God does not require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses to be saved.

Nor the jews for that matter...before grace came in the form of the promise of passover lamb before, and yeshua - the passover lamb after. :priest:

To even suggest that people like Billy Graham, or Adrian Rodgers, or Joni Erickson Tada are hell bound because they have not kept a Passover is blaspheme.

I don't think that the poster was saying that except to say that those who don't believe in Torah don't believe in G-d because G-d is the Torah and the Torah is G-d. Also we are given the power to judge others by their fruits. If it walks like a wolf, if it talks like a wolf, it it eats like a wolf....it must be a wolf, don't be fooled by those who walk in sheep skin. :cool:

In Yeshua, ALL the righteous requirements of the Law are met. THIS is what makes us righteous and allows us to inherit the Kingdom, not because we try to keep shabbat and passover when the opportunity arises.

I'd like to add that all of the laws have not yet been fulfilled, (if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly :scratch: ) Keeping shabbat and passover when the opportunity arises, hopefully we will all keep it during the appointed times instead. I don't believe that the Torah ever said that not following every law will stop you from entering heaven rather they will lead you astray from the righteous path.

Mikhail

10th August 2005, 12:15 AM

Well, we know that God does not require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. The problem was brought up and God fixed it at the Council of Jerusalem.

To even suggest that people like Billy Graham, or Adrian Rodgers, or Joni Erickson Tada are hell bound because they have not kept a Passover is blaspheme.

In Yeshua, ALL the righteous requirements of the Law are met. THIS is what makes us righteous and allows us to inherit the Kingdom, not because we try to keep shabbat and passover when the opportunity arises.

gabriele

Well I do not know the others but I certainly would question Billy Grahams place at minimum he may as the man who escapes through the flames with his life but lose's all his possesions.

Billy Graham would have to be the worst example of an Evangelist in history with the lowest retention rate ever a big contrast to a man like Charles Finney who had one of the highest certainly of the last few hundred years.

Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

visionary

10th August 2005, 07:56 AM

Well, we know that God does not require the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses to be saved. The problem was brought up and God fixed it at the Council of Jerusalem.

To even suggest that people like Billy Graham, or Adrian Rodgers, or Joni Erickson Tada are hell bound because they have not kept a Passover is blaspheme.

In Yeshua, ALL the righteous requirements of the Law are met. THIS is what makes us righteous and allows us to inherit the Kingdom, not because we try to keep shabbat and passover when the opportunity arises.

gabrieleYou can not be declared righteous until Christ in you lives all the requirements of the law. That is what makes you righteous and allows you to enter the kingdom. For the kingdom of God will not be made up of lawless people. The council of Jerusalem is the starting point and remember the last part which is going to the synagogue ever sabbath to learn more of Moses... the Mount Sinai laws.

Charles YTK

10th August 2005, 09:20 AM

Well I do not know the others but I certainly would question Billy Grahams place at minimum he may as the man who escapes through the flames with his life but lose's all his possesions.

Billy Graham would have to be the worst example of an Evangelist in history with the lowest retention rate ever a big contrast to a man like Charles Finney who had one of the highest certainly of the last few hundred years.

Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

These are awfully srtrong words here.

And the world needs some strong words once in a while. :thumbsup:

I have had discussion with Torah-less people and they say, "If it was not for the Christians, then nobody would have been brought to the knowledge of Christ, (because of the billy Grahams or the world.)"

And to this I say that they did not bring anyone to the real Messiah but instead to the Christ formed in the doctrines of Christianity, the fair haired arian looking man with a British accent who hated the Jews, who abolished Torah, who replaced the God of Israel with Himself and replaced Israel with the Gentiles of the world, who do not keep the instructions of God and who live as in violation of Torah as much as possible. So did these great evangelists really do such a wonderful thing? If they did, it was by accident, by turning them from total Godlessness toward a place that God might be able to speak the truth to them amongst the clamour of the shouts of the Christian pulits, "You are free from the law, the law is abolished, if you keep the law you have lost your salvation" and other such things. Propbably only those who were brought close enough to acually read the bible for themselves and search out the matter went very far beyond the doctrines of men. Are all these masses saved? Who am I to say. Do they have a place of honor in the Kingdom? You tell me.

Charles

Charles YTK

10th August 2005, 09:21 AM

Visionary,

You can not be declared righteous until Christ in you lives all the requirements of the law.

Very good way of putting it. Thanks.

Charles

debi b

10th August 2005, 09:23 AM

closed for review

debi b

10th August 2005, 09:55 AM

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This thread is now reopened.

gabriele

10th August 2005, 09:44 PM

Blasphemy is very strong word to use.... Yeshua tells us that in that day (his return) many will say to him didn't we do great things in your name, and he will say - get away from you workers of lawlessness.

Trying to keep Shabbat or Pesach becuase it is convient or "when the opportunity arises" says that we are keeping it for our own purposes and not from a place of loving obeidence to the one who created us. We were created to do the will of the Father.

It is blaspheme when one suggest that people of faith (like Billy Graham, etc) will not inherit the Kingdom because they do not live up to your lifestyle of Torah-obsevance, because please remember, every one, WE DON'T KEEP TORAH PERFECTLY - ONLY YESHUA DID THAT.

Ok, say if I am Torah observant to the best of my ability and take confidence in that fact. If I believe my salvation is secure because of Torah-observance, then I will also (wrongly) judge others on the same merit. I ALSO will believe that those who do not have the same Torah-observant life as I do are in danger! Why? Because I am not trusting in Yeshua, I am trusting in my own ability, and therefore I will judge everyone's else's ability or apparant lack of it.

The question "Is Torah observance necessary for salvation" was asked 2000 years ago and solved.

Remember what Kefa said - do not put a yoke on people that his forefathers were UNABLE to bear! Works-based salvation is a horrible taskmaster!

Think of what Shaul said - he said that Israel would not submit to GOD'S righteousness because they were trying to establish their own!

I am not righteous by my shabbat keeping! I am not going to inherit the Kingdom because of any Torah Law I keep! I take NO confidence in what do, but give all glory to God, and HE makes me and ALL righteous who trust in the Son of God - whether Torah observant or not.

I am headed for gehenna if I believe my "torah-observance" - as if; I don't even keep half of it, I can't - will make me deserve eternal life!

Please, everyone, remember the obedient Pharisee and then please remember the disobedient tax collector.

At the end of the day, only the tax collector was justified.

gabriele

gabriele

10th August 2005, 09:52 PM

Is Torah-Obedience Necessary for Salvation?

Personally, I'd rather be safe than sorry. :sorry:

Psalm 111:10The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.

:

Hebrews 10:26-3126 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The whole point to repentance is that we are to stop sinning ("Go, and sin no more.") If we are truly repentant, then we will not continue to deliberately sin. Anything else is trampling the Son underfoot, treating the blood of the covenant as an unholy thing, and insulting the Spirit of grace. Can't get much plainer than that.

It is pride and arrogance that insists on keeping Yeshua on the stake and ourselves on the throne. Humility puts Him on the throne and ourselves up on the execution stake. :bow:

Then I guess you are keeping EVERY Torah commandment so that you won't be sorry?

If Torah keeping will make you "safe," then why didn't the Pharisee recieve justification for HIS torah keeping, but the disobedient tax collector who realized his sinfullness, was?

gabriele

gabriele

10th August 2005, 09:55 PM

my thoughts exactly too hehehe^_^

Grace cannot be "attained."

It is given to you as someone who does not deserve it but is given anyway.

Some of my fellow believers' words here make me worry that they are trusting in their own works to be saved.

gabriele

visionary

10th August 2005, 09:56 PM

whether Torah observant or not.Righteousness (defined by the law) comes from Yeshua who is to live in us. Righteousness is the outward life from the oly Spirit moving from within us according to the Law of God. Without the definition, you have lawlessness, which not torah observant, which is without a foundation. Yeshua breaths life into the Torah life in us. You can not have one without the other. They are inseparable. If you think that Yeshua grants anything outside His Law, then you are mistaken where grace begins. The Law is the line in the sand, you must cross it to either enter or leave the kingdom of God and where grace is either granted or grieved away, depending on the direction you have chosen.

gabriele

10th August 2005, 09:58 PM

Righteousness (defined by the law) comes from Yeshua who is to live in us. Righteousness is the outward life from the oly Spirit moving from within us according to the Law of God. Without the definition, you have lawlessness, which not torah observant, which is without a foundation. Yeshua breaths life into the Torah life in us. You can not have one without the other. They are inseparable. If you think that Yeshua grants anything outside His Law, then you are mistaken where grace begins. The Law is the line in the sand, you must cross it to either enter or leave the kingdom of God and where grace is either granted or grieved away, depending on the direction you have chosen.

We do not live by our own righteousness, visionary.

Even David knew that no one living was righteous before him.

Grace was given when we were the worst of sinners!

The tax collector was justified; the "righteous" pharisee was not.

gabriele

ps - David recived much grace when he ate the Priest's bread that was unlawful for him to eat! When Yeshua mentioned this unlawful act of David's to his fellow Jews who were accusing his disciples of being unlawful on the sabbath, they had no reply. Grace surpasses Law. The Law is not even based on faith - the person who lives by Law will be cursed if he does not continue to do everything in the Law!

I love it when Yeshua would shut the mouths of task-masters!

gabriele

10th August 2005, 10:20 PM

visionary

10th August 2005, 10:31 PM

What do you do every day to attain your salvation? I'm curious.

gabrieleSalvation is a free gift. The Lord just told where I can find it. IT is found in Torah. By living (I mean living the truth in spirit as well as in practice) through faith in Yeshua in me, I walk, talk and have my being. Anything less that total immersion in His Word in my world is not enough. His kingdom is coming, and I get to practice living it now in His Spirit and in Truth. By His grace, that is acceptable to the Lord, because He sees Himself in me.

gabriele

10th August 2005, 10:35 PM

Salvation is a free gift. The Lord just told where I can find it. IT is found in Torah. By living (I mean living the truth in spirit as well as in practice) through faith in Yeshua in me, I walk, talk and have my being. Anything less that total immersion in His Word in my world is not enough. His kingdom is coming, and I get to practice living it now in His Spirit and in Truth. By His grace, that is acceptable to the Lord, because He sees Himself in me.

So the Torah died for you so that you could be saved?

capriele

visionary

10th August 2005, 10:48 PM

So the Torah died for you so that you could be saved?

caprieleYeshua is the living Torah and yes He did die that I may live. He lives in me, and you should see Torah as Yeshua reflects it through my life. Now that is the living breathing Torah that Yeshua was talking about. Ever study the Temple of God which you are to be. Yeshua is to be the High Priest. The Temple of God is laid out at Mount Sinai, which is the example of the true which is in heaven. Just like Thy kingdom come, thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

gabriele

10th August 2005, 10:53 PM

Yeshua is the living Torah and yes He did die that I may live. He lives in me, and you should see Torah as Yeshua reflects it through my life. Now that is the living breathing Torah that Yeshua was talking about. Ever study the Temple of God which you are to be. Yeshua is to be the High Priest. The Temple of God is laid out at Mount Sinai, which is the example of the true which is in heaven. Just like Thy kingdom come, thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

I personally do not believe Jesus is a "living Torah" - the Torah condemned all men - Paul called it a "ministry of death that condemned all men." Yeshua was not death.

I believe Jesus was the Good News made flesh! That is why He did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned - the law killed; Jesus gave life.

Do you put your trust in what Yeshua did for you, or what you do?
gabriele

visionary

10th August 2005, 11:01 PM

I personally do not believe Jesus is a "living Torah" - the Torah condemned all men - Paul called it a "ministry of death that condemned all men." Yeshua was not death.

I believe Jesus was the Good News made flesh! That is why He did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned - the law killed; Jesus gave life.

Do you put your trust in what Yeshua did for you, or what you do?
gabrieleYou do believe that Yeshua was the fulfillment of the law? Living Torah is just another way of saying that. What Paul was saying about the letter of the law is true, it is the condemnation to all men. What Paul also talked about was the spirit of the law which Yeshua lived, and it is the righteousness that is offered to us, through that same Holy Spirit that is in Yeshua. Yeshua breathed it upon His disciples so that they may live righteous lives just like Yeshua. He promised us that if we ask He will also send the Holy Spirit so that we too can live the righteous life that is in Him. I put my trust in what Yeshua is doing for me every moment of my life. What He did on the cross was just one particle of the great plan of salvation.

Bracy

10th August 2005, 11:14 PM

It is blaspheme when one suggest that people of faith (like Billy Graham, etc) will not inherit the Kingdom because they do not live up to your lifestyle of Torah-obsevance...

What do the scriptures tell us?

1 John 4:4: He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

If anyone claims to know HaShem, and does not keep His Torah commandments, he is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

because please remember, every one, WE DON'T KEEP TORAH PERFECTLY - ONLY YESHUA DID THAT.

Did you read my initial post in this thread? This has nothing to do with "perfect Torah obedience." It has to do with a commitment on our part to strive for the perfection of Yeshua. As I said in my initial post:

"Faith" means "unwavering acceptance, faithfulness, and trust in the authority of HaShem in that we are willing to submit wholeheartedly to the rationality of His Written commandments."

This doesn’t mean that we “work our way into heaven,” or that our works makes us righteous-enough to inherit eternal life. It means that if we commit ourselves to living a Torah-submissive lifestyle, then Yeshua’s blood is applied to us, and our sins are forgiven. No amount of works can make up for our sins, we must receive Yeshua’s atoning blood. But, that blood is only applied to us if we demonstrate our faith through obedience. It isn’t our own “righteousness” that saves us, but Yeshua’s. His blood is applied to us and atones for our sins if we keep our vow to hear and obey. This doesn’t mean “perfect Torah obedience,” but a commitment to follow the path. If we fall down, we repent and pick ourselves back up and continue to follow the path. We carry on the struggle to be perfect, but that doesn't mean that we achieve perfection. It is a commitment on our part to become more and more like Yeshua. The more Torah-obedience we become, the more like Him we become. Some may reach 10 percent of the way there, others may reach 90% percent, but the imporant thing is that both are committed to doing the best they can.

As Yeshua said:

Matthew 13:23: But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth ; which also [i]beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Some may bear fruit a hundred fold, some sixty, and some thirty. Our salvation is not dependant on how much fruit we bear, but on whether or not we bear fruit at all.

Bracy

10th August 2005, 11:35 PM

I believe Jesus was the Good News made flesh! That is why He did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned - the law killed; Jesus gave life.

Why do you suppose that only the woman was brought before Yeshua, and not the man as well, as the Torah requires?

Leviticus 20:10: And the man that committeth adultery with [another] man's wife, [even he] that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Were the scribes and Pharisees being Torah-obedient themselves in the manner in which they brought the woman before Yeshua?

Devasha

11th August 2005, 12:57 AM

Then I guess you are keeping EVERY Torah commandment so that you won't be sorry?

If Torah keeping will make you "safe," then why didn't the Pharisee recieve justification for HIS torah keeping, but the disobedient tax collector who realized his sinfullness, was?

What I wrote was about humility, not self-righteous Pharisaism. Please re-read what I wrote. I never said Torah keeping would keep me or anyone else safe. What I said was to walk a walk of fear and trembling at who HE is compared to the nothing that we are, constantly remembering that we are not our own, but His.

When we have heard something out of the mouth of YHVH, are we to obey it? Or should we ignore it, second-guess it, minimize it, rationalize not doing it?

I submit that it a simple matter of having a humble child-like heart that says, "Yes, Abba" and then just DOES what He says. We truly can be slaves to righteousness. It is our Master who says so.

Matthew 4:4

It all goes back to the beginning:

Genesis 3:1

"Did YHVH really say [fill in the blank]?" is the same tactic used against us to this day!

It is a lie from the pit of hell that tells us that we should not obey our Master or even that we cannot obey Him. Would He, the loving Father that He is, truly tell us to do something without enabling us to do it? Why are we told that Zechariah and Elizabeth were blameless and kept all the commandments? Is that a lie? Or is the impossibility of being obedient the true lie?

Bon

11th August 2005, 01:10 AM

I believe Jesus was the Good News made flesh! That is why He did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned - the law killed; Jesus gave life.

I posted this in another thread...perhaps before your time here gabriele, so I will take the opportunity to post it again. :)

The reason why Yahshua did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned, was not because He changed the penalty of adultery through abolishing the Law. So why then did He NOT condemn the woman caught in the very act of adultery?

John 8:3-11, "And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

This passage clearly shows us that Yahshua was following Yahweh's Law, NOT changing it. It would have been strange if Yahshua, when he was not a judge (verse 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.), and had not the witnesses before him to examine them (verse 10), nor a confession from the accused, and when she had not been tried and condemned by the law and legal judges, should have taken upon him to condemn her. This being the case, it appears why Yahshua avoided giving an answer to the question of the Scribes and Pharisees.

What took place in John 8 follows the Old Testament law on punishing adultery. A woman accused of adultery could not be stoned to death if:

She did not confess her crime, or
There were no witnesses:
Numbers 35:30 Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient testimony against a person for the death penalty.
Deuteronomy 17:6 Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.
... and
There was no judge to pronounce sentence:
Deuteronomy 19:17then both men in the controversy shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. 18And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot..

When Yahshua said, "Neither do I condemn thee," this is to be taken in the sense of judicial condemnation, or of passing sentence as a magistrate, for this was what they had arraigned her for in front of him. It was not to obtain his opinion about adultery, but to obtain the condemnation of the woman. As he claimed no authority to magistrate, he said that he did not exercise it, and should not condemn her to die.

This is proven by Yahshua's statement a few verses later, when he said, "I judge no man" John 8:15. Elsewhere, He said, "who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:14. Yahshua also said, "for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" John 12:47. Yahshua was not a judge, so he could not pass judgment upon the woman. And even if he was a judge, God's Law prohibited him from passing judgment without any accusers or witnesses.

When Yahshua said, "He that is without sin among you [He that is not guilty: his own conscience being the judge], let him [as a witness] first cast a stone at her" verse 7, he was actually confirming Yahweh's Law, not changing it. Under the law, the witnesses were to cast the first stone Deuteronomy 17:7-8. Yahshua maintained and vindicated the law, but imposed a condition which they had overlooked. The one who executed the law must be free from the same crime, lest by stoning the woman he condemn himself as worthy of a like death.

This was in order that the witness might feel his responsibility in giving evidence, as he was also to be the executioner. Yahshua therefore put them to the test. Without pronouncing on her case, he directed them, if any of them were innocent, to perform the office of executioner. This was said, evidently, well knowing their guilt, and well knowing that no one would dare to do it.

Yahshua considered her act of adultery to be a sin, he did not change that. He told her, "Go, and sin no more." In other words, He basically told her, "You have sinned. You have been detected and accused. The sin is great. But I do not claim power to condemn you to die, and, as your accusers have left you, my direction to you is that you sin no more."

Therefore, this passage teaches us:

1. That Yahshua claimed no authority to magistrate.

2. That he regarded the action of which they accused her as sin.

3. That he knew the hearts and lives of men.

4. That men are often very zealous in accusing others of that of which they themselves are guilty.

5. That Yahshua was endowed with wonderful wisdom in meeting the devices of his enemies, and eluding their deep-laid plans to involve him in ruin.

The scribes and Pharisees were the prosecutors and they brought her before Yahshua to be the judge. They argued that Moses commanded that such a woman should be stoned. But they wanted to know how this new King Yahshua would respond.

Verse six reveals their evil intent. They were tempting him, that they might accuse Him. Yahshua stooped down and with his finger wrote on the ground as if he had not heard them. Finally He said, "He that is without sin among you, cast the first stone." He was putting them on trial first. If they wanted to judge her, then they needed to be on trial first. The scribes and Pharisees must have been outraged.

So, she didn't pay the full penalty of the law. But, they left her alone because their lives were also in sin.

Yahshua also knew full well that none of them could even pretend to be sinless with any degree of believability. In bringing the woman accused of adultery, they had all conspired to sin! A woman cannot be found in the act of adultery without also a man being found with her, yet no man was brought with the accused. Also, as far as the guilty are concerned, Moses’ law says that “they” shall surely be put to death, not that “she” alone shall be put to death.

Shalom from Bon

Bon

11th August 2005, 01:48 AM

I find it really difficult to explain a belief in keeping the Law, without it seeming like a way to salvation...or a way to gain brownie points...or a way without faith...........when none of these is the truth.

To say that Torah observance is necessary for salvation is incorrect, yet correct at the very same time.

The concept is easily misunderstood.

It is the intent of the heart.

It is not the letter of the Law...it is the SPIRIT of the Law....What does that mean?

To me it means...no longer words on stone..but those SAME WORDS on my heart and in my mind.

If that is the case then....I am keeping the Law, but in a different way, the way it was intended all along until man put his own spin on it and added his own set of rules and interpretation....
With LOVE, with DESIRE.
And with the power of the Holy Spirit....AND all this through FAITH in Yahshua AND by the grace of Yahweh.

WHAT IS WRONG WITH THOSE OF US WHO CHOOSE TO KEEP THE LAW (FOLLOW TORAH) WITH OUR HEARTS BECAUSE WE ARE EMPOWERED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT TO DO SO?

The other thing is..I am not perfectly keeping Torah, but I am on an upward path....Yahweh knows my heart....because He is leading it...He knows my intentions are for righteousness....However far I fall short, I am not stagnating in my spiritual growth.

Its a fine line in understanding that separates...keeping the Law and being obedient to the will of Yahweh. His will is that we live in obedience to Him...and His Torah is His guide (manual).

It's just a matter of choosing our words in a politically correct manner really, so as not to misinform those who can only relate the keeping of the Law to a life without faith in Yahshua and relying only on ourselves to attain salvation.

Rambling now....:)

Shalom from Bon

CovenantRay

11th August 2005, 03:52 AM

Shalom:

Sister Bon, keep rambling on, as you have mirrored my feelings well.

Being a Jew who believes that Y'shua is the messiah, I live in both sides of my bible. It is all inspired by Hashem. Is my salvation assured by following each and every law in the bible? I hope not, as heaven would be a lonely place.

I wish to be totally honest with all of you. The source of my joy is simply knowing the Truth that Y'shua is real, Hashem is real, the bible is TRUE!

My joy is not in the "blessed hope" that when I die, or should Y'shua come and I meet him in the clouds, that I shall be in heaven.

I am growing in Torah knowledge, observance, obedience, submission, etc., to set my family apart from the profane. To be holy, or set apart for His use.

Therefore, to me, it is not about MY salvation -- As I am not worthy to be saved (none are), it is about HIM. I would prefer to go to heaven than hell for eternity -- However, knowing Hashem is much more important to me than my eternity.

Now I'm rambling (tempted to blame it on Bon, but I know better!)

CovenantRay :prayer:

Devasha

11th August 2005, 11:23 AM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to CovenantRay again.

Beautiful description of a circumcised heart. :clap:

Charles YTK

11th August 2005, 12:02 PM

Bon,

I find it really difficult to explain a belief in keeping the Law, without it seeming like a way to salvation...or a way to gain brownie points...or a way without faith...........when none of these is the truth.

To say that Torah observance is necessary for salvation is incorrect, yet correct at the very same time.

The concept is easily misunderstood.

It is the intent of the heart.

Just wanted to say that this was good and built me up when I read it. I could not respond to it until now because I was prevented.

Charles

Tishri1

11th August 2005, 12:05 PM

Grace cannot be "attained."

It is given to you as someone who does not deserve it but is given anyway.

Some of my fellow believers' words here make me worry that they are trusting in their own works to be saved.

gabrieleDon't quote me then anymore cuz I'm don't trust my own thoughts muchless my actions....I fail miserably at this Torah thing! So why do I even try then? Good Question! Well because I love him so much! and He said
Matthew 19:17 ... keep the commandments." John 14:15 15 a"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. John 14:21 21 a"He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; ...John 15:10 10 a"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as bI have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.

I love him that's why:kiss:

Devasha

11th August 2005, 12:06 PM

This morning I was reminded of the story of the Ethiopian eunuch, and it occurred to me how much can be learned from him and his reaction to hearing the Truth.

Acts 8:36

As soon as Philip showed him what he was looking for, he didn't hesitate to ACT on what he perceived and believed.

This same mindset can be applied to so many things:

"Look, here is kosher food (instead of swineflesh). Why shouldn't I eat it?"

"Look, here is Shabbat. Why shouldn't I set it apart and keep it?"

"Look, here is YHVH's Torah (instructions). Why shouldn't I do as He says?"

I believe what stops us from doing as YHVH instructs is SELF--plain and simple. We are to die to self and live for Him.

Galatians 5:24

Charles YTK

11th August 2005, 12:13 PM

Isn't it strange that most can easily say that Homosexuality is an abomination to God and will stand by that. It says so in the Torah. Yet God also said in Torah in the same passages, it is an abomination to eat anything that is unclean. Was God right about homosexuality and wrong about kosher food?
And what of this?

Deut 31: [12] Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: [13] And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

Shimshon

11th August 2005, 02:12 PM

If I may re-emphisise.

Deut 31: [12] Gather the people together, men, and women, and children, and thy stranger that is within thy gates, that they may hear, and that they may learn, and fear the LORD your God, and observe to do all the words of this law: [13] And that their children, which have not known any thing, may hear, and learn to fear the LORD your God, as long as ye live in the land whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.
This Torah was given to Yisrael 'before' they were to 'enter and live in the Land'. The Torah here is repleat with references to "when you enter the Land I am giving you" YOU ARE REQUIRED TO DO........

Mark 16:15

Then he said to them, "As you go throughout the world, proclaim the Good News to all creation. 16 Whoever trusts and is immersed will be saved; whoever does not trust will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who do trust: in my name they will drive out demons, speak with new tongues, 18 not be injured if they handle snakes or drink poison, and heal the sick by laying hands on them." 19 So then, after he had spoken to them, the Lord Yeshua was taken up into heaven and sat at the right hand of God. 20 And they went out and proclaimed everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the message by the accompanying signs.

This Torah was given to Yisrael 'before' they were about to enter the world and be scattered, having our House there abandoned never to produce fruit again as the fig tree implies. This Torah was also given to Yisrael on the basis of better promises. For the Torah was given through Moshe; grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah.

Deut 18 states that Yeshua would come and give Torah and if we did not listen to it we would be cursed. MORE TORAH....to come. If you disobey it, your dead. In the 'old' it speaks of a new, thus making itself 'old'. What if Avraham said, nope, no sirry Gd, you gave me an order and i'm not changing it. Yet, Adonai says, but I told you I would give you further instructions? Avraham says, sure, I'll do it, but I'm not stopping what you told be to do before. Adonai says, But I said I would bring you into the land yet you would not possess it, then one day you will, yet still I will scatter you from it and then regather you again. Avraham says, GREAT....so when do they return? I'm stayin right here were you said. I will follow THAT instruction FOREVER. Even after you take the Land in which it was given to be obeyed.

oy, bevakasha!!!! Can't you see it?

The bones are gathered, the whole body of Yisrael is standing. But the Ruach has yet to come back to give her life. This will happen on the Day of Adonai. Yom Kippur.

Gd is not dealing with us in the Land anylonger. (it will NOT be like the covenant I made with your fathers) He has scattered his Temple into the four corners of the world and will regather it when it is ready to serve him in Tziyon. When the Land is cleansed and the people are too. This is the remnant fortold. The remnant that will come back to the Land and reposess it in Truth and Spirit. No blood will be on their hands. Adoani Tzvaot will deal with the enemy then and they will fall once and for all.

He scattered his flock to divest the enemy from it, with the message that he will regather us when this has occured.

And when we are regathered, this is the Torah given for then.

Rev 21 "Come! I will show you the Bride, the Wife of the Lamb." 10 He carried me off in the Spirit to the top of a great, high mountain and showed me the holy city, Yerushalayim, coming down out of heaven from God.

The city's main street was pure gold, transparent as glass. 22 I saw no Temple in the city, for ADONAI, God of heaven's armies, is its Temple, as is the Lamb.

So I must ask, why are you forcing the Goyim to live like Jews?

I am a Jew by birth, not a so-called 'Goyishe sinner'; even so,

I have come to realize that a person is not declared righteous by God on the ground of his legalistic observance of Torah commands, but through the Messiah Yeshua's trusting faithfulness. Therefore, I too have put my trust in Messiah Yeshua and become faithful to him, in order that I might be declared righteous on the ground of the Messiah's trusting faithfulness and not on the ground of any legalistic observance of Torah commands. For on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, no one will be declared righteous. Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor. 19 For it was through letting the Torah speak for itself that I died to its traditional legalistic misinterpretation, so that I might live in direct relationship with God.

This is not about 'oral' Torah as many claim. It plainly states the Torah spoke for itself and I DIED to IT's traditional legalistic misinterpretation.

The misinterpretation is not Oral Torah, it is through THE TORAH speaking for ITself that I died to legalistic misinterpretation of such. Which means the Torah was being traditionally misunderstoon in legalism. As is done today still.

The Land Charles. Is Gd dealing with 'His Chosen People' through the Land? If we are his chosen, who is in the Land? The remnant?

Zephaniah 3:8-13 8 Therefore, wait for me," says ADONAI, "for the day when I rise to witness against you, when I decide to assemble nations, to gather kingdoms together, to pour on them my indignation, all my furious anger; for all the earth will be consumed in the fire of my passion. 9 For then I will change the peoples, so that they will have pure lips, to call on the name of ADONAI, all of them, and serve him with one accord. 10 Even from beyond Ethiopia's rivers they will bring those who petition me, the daughter of my dispersed as my offering. 11 When that day comes, you will not be ashamed of everything you have done, committing wrongs against me; for then I will remove from among you those of you who take joy in arrogance; you will no longer be full of pride on my holy mountain. 12 I will leave among you a poor and afflicted people, who will find their refuge in the name of ADONAI." 13 The remnant of Isra'el will not do wrong, nor will they speak lies, nor will there be found in their mouths a tongue given over to deceit; for they will be able to graze and lie down, with no one to disturb them.

Rom 11 Or don't you know what the Tanakh says about Eliyahu? He pleads with God against Isra'el, 3 "ADONAI, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars, and I'm the only one left, and now they want to kill me too!"w 4 But what is God's answer to him? "I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not knelt down to Ba'al." 5 It's the same way in the present age: there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 (Now if it is by grace, it is accordingly not based on legalistic works; if it were otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.) 7 What follows is that Isra'el has not attained the goal for which she is striving. The ones chosen have obtained it, but the rest have been made stonelike, 8 just as the Tanakh says, "God has given them a spirit of dullness eyes that do not see and ears that do not hear, right down to the present day."

Again, why are we telling people to become 'Jewish' according to those who were made 'stonelike' even to this day?

Please, be Jewish according to Gd, not men.

A Jew is one inwardly and is proved by his LOVE FOR ADOANI above all things.

2 John 1:5 And now, dear lady, I am requesting that we love one another - not as if this were a new command I am writing you, for it is the one which we have had from the beginning.

If your a Jew, you have been judged to exile. Our Land has been taken and given to others, we have no Land, no Temple and as promise we have taken the highway AWAY from our Gd. As Yeshua did this he also made a highway back to himself. He promised two things in the regathering. That Yisrael will pay infront of all nations personally and that the remnant of her will be his posession forever. 48' made this possible to occur. Redemption is near, as is judgment. In ONE day will Gd cleanse his Temple, in One hour will it all come down and the dead be raised, some to glory, some to death. The fig is blooming her leaves are plenty, but the fruit comes from Adonai. And the axe is at the root.

Hashiveinu Adonai

Charles YTK

11th August 2005, 02:49 PM

Shimshon,

Thank you for the thoughtful post. But this brings up some questions. If this living by the law is only for those who live in the lands of Israel, then were not the many who accepted Messiah in the early days of the church not also saved and called to share in the Covenants of Israel as the Apostles taught, even those who did not live in the land. Paul said to the Romans that the spiritual man amoung them will have his mind in subject to God's law. And the Ephesians, he said that they who were formerly Gentiles are now part of Israel and partakers of her covenants. They were speaking to Gentiles from many nations. The Master himself said to go, away from the lands, and into all nations and to make disciples of all men, and to teach them the same things that he had taught those who lived in the land. What he taught them was perfect Torah.

Here is what Adonai says:

Is 56 [6] Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; [7] Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. [8] The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.

He is gathering people of all the nations, not so much to the lands of Israel, for that small nation will not hold all that God is saving, but he is gathering the nations to himself through faith in Messiah. As such we are all part of the first fruits of the final harvest that is to come. And what does the prophet say about those who are in this new covenant? That Adonai will write his Torah upon their hearts, so that every man will know Him. As first fruits we are to have the same characteristics as the final harvest, the same fruit. They shall keep the law and so shall we who enter early.

I will read your post several more times I think to try and see exactly what you are saying, but from what I know, Gods salvation and the camp of his people are not limited to those in the land are they?

Charles YTK

11th August 2005, 04:28 PM

Shimshon,

I have read your post a couple more times and this is where I think you misunderstand me.

Again, why are we telling people to become 'Jewish' according to those who were made 'stonelike' even to this day?

Please, be Jewish according to Gd, not men.

You see I do not teach Gentiles to live like the Jews. To do so whould be Rabbinical Judaism with its rejection of Yeshua as Messiah, and the addition of many Rabbinical rulings about ritual matters, purities and how to keep the Sabbath, in order to maintain good standing through their observation. What I teach and many here as well, is that our salvation is through faith (trusting his mercy and provision through Messiah) and obedience to God's eternal law which is given to all men and reflected in Torah, not Rabbinical traditions. Abraham was a Gentile, not a Jew and what is said of him? Gen 26: [5] Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.
And this was Abrahams nature before the promise and before the circumcision. He was saved by his faith and then went on to obey Gods law as it was revealed to him and later detailed and codified through Moshe. Isn't this the same form of faith that all men who trust God should have that they trust God and live New lives that are no longer in rebellion to his will but obedient to his will and wisdom as expressed through his comandments? This is why John says that if we say we know him and keep not his commandments then we are liars. His commandments are not Rabbinical law, for Yeshua cricized much of that, observing only that which was good and supported Torah and inhanced community and relationship with HaShem. This is what I teach as well.

If the Ten Words are not for us Gentiles, then tell me which one would you have us violate first? Are we not also born of the spirit and have the Torah written on our hearts same as you who are sons of Abraham through blood? Have we not also received the gift of the Ruach Ha Kodesh? Are we all not saved by HaShems Mercy accessed through our faith, (believing) and our faithfulness ( living by his word) ?

I hope this clarifies my postion anyway. Perhaps through answering my questions here I will better understand your position.

Charles

Shimshon

11th August 2005, 06:48 PM

And thank you Charles for your humble replies. Know that i'm not trying to 'start' any kind of battle with you. I appreciate your cander and your responses. Thank you. Now on to the discussion

A covenant is a promise by Adonai, it says’ I will do this. You will be this. The law (Torah) is a command, and instruction, it says’ you will do this in this way at this time.

All are called to enter into his covenant, it is everlasting. It states He will be our Gd and we his people. Forever. The Torah defines how, when, and where.

Your mind is always supposed to be in subjection to the law of Gd. But the way you used this verse implies to me that, a saved (spiritual) person will be subject to the Torah given at Mt Sinai. We are under the law given Moshe to Yisrael in the Land? This Torah was given to those about to enter the Land. It expresses this to no end. “When you enter the land I promised to give you and you are living there…….do this…do that…..

And a time will come that I will send another prophet who will give you more Torah, if you don’t listen to this prophet you will die. Then we have prophets speaking of a breaking of the covenant made and a scattering of the people and a desolation of the Land. And then, it happens, just as it was foretold. But some want to live as though they never been exiled. And draw others into their wayward Torahless ways. I say Torahless because they rejected the instruction about a coming Messiah who would save them and GIVE TORAH again. In saying they observe Torah they actually are rejecting the very binding that holds the instructions together.

Your use of Is 56 says to me that he is gathering all nations to observe the Torah given Moshe? His law is so much more than rulings and mitzvot As Shaul said to the Romans, ‘Torah is Spirit’. Not physical. Then as Today we place his words upon our heart, we bind his words around our arms in Spirit, not with leather and papyrus. Meaning, our actions prove his word lives within us. Our actions of LOVE not legalistic Torah commands.

What I teach and many here as well, is that our salvation is through faith and obedience to God's eternal law

This is what concerns me. It would be less of a concern if I understood your definition of the eternal law as Love. Love for Gd and all others. This is as you say, reflected in Torah, given Moshe. But I know from your posts you mean otherwise. When you, and many others here, state ‘my commandments, my statutes, my laws. you imply Torah given Moshe. Correct me if I’m incorrect please.

I do not hold the same view of Avraham as you do. I do not consider him a Gentile. Though it speaks volumes about your understanding of the term ‘Jewish’. He was a ‘Hebrew’. A stranger in a strange land promised to by his descendents inheritance. He was called out to be holy to Gd. The seed by which his children would proliferate the world.

Now I see you place a difference between Jew and Hebrew.

I think the misunderstanding you hold is between Covenant/Torah as well as Jew/Hebrew. All are called to his promised covenant. Yet Torah is given to those of a certain time place and reason. Like ‘I will give you harvests and you will take the best and give them to the levi’. What happens when he takes the harvests away, and the levi’im? As promised? And gives you a ‘new’ transformed Torah, as promised? Do you still remain ‘faithful’ to a Torah that has seen it’s expiration? Are you building an ark for the flood? Why not, it’s Torah, given Noach before the flood.

Well, Torah was given to Moshe before the Promised Land, and it was given again at the Promised coming of Moshiach. How can you call others ‘Torahless’ and not follow ALL Torah given you? You were instructed to LEAVE THE LAND and Temple, in fact He made them both desolate for us so we wouldn’t try and enter back into it. But the stony ones, they remained hardened to this day even. Refusing to obey Torah and accept the Good News of Moshiach Yeshua. And is promises long ago about this very happening.

He was saved by his faith and then went on to obey Gods law as it was revealed to him and later detailed and codified through Moshe.

Very good, so why are we stopping with Moshe? More Torah was revealed to us even later in detail, and codified through Yeshua’s blood. Why are we not listening to it? This Torah had nothing to do with Land mitzvot and Temple worship. It transformed them into YOU. You are the Temple and the world is his Land. Yet, you say Yisrael is too small a country to fit all the saved. But how is it the prophets speak of a physical return of the remnant? See, I believe the prophets when they spoke of a returning remnant that does no wrong to Tziyon. It's not just a spiritual parable. It's a physical gathering of his chosen. And I do believe we will fit in the land he promised. You do realize it extends from the sea to the aravah? And I dont' mean the Yarden. Iraq is ours, syria, lebenon, jordan, kuwait....it's all promised to us. Avraham believed this even though it was full of Amalekites as long as he lived. And it was accredited to him as righteousness. Because he believed. He was saved. Yes, he was then given Torah to follow. And he did.

So too, we are saved by Faith, and given Torah to follow. And when the time comes he will return again and give more Torah (instruction) and we will follow it then too. It doesn't 'erase as in abolish' the old it completes as in fulfills it. One suggests a dislike and misunderstanding of Torah, the other suggests a love and understanding in fullness. Abolish, no way. Fulfill, yes.

Your questions.

The Ten Words in spirit are for all who ever live. In physicality, they were given to Yisrael in the Land and all who would join to her, in the Land. Torah is written on the hearts of his children. LOVE, it encompasses, fulfills ALL instructions ever given…when you get in the land and you accidently murder someone, you must have mercy and let them live in the cities of refuge. LOVE…do we have these cities today, no. Do we show mercy when this happens today (law on our heart) Yes. BTW, this was done so the person who was wronged would not be able to justly kill you for your actions. Do we operate this way today? Inwardly we do, for we have no cities, no levi’im no temple no land…..It’s been placed inside you…the Word is within you. All who believe receive the Ruach. Believe what? In Yeshua AND Torah observance per Moshe? Or in Yeshua and who, what where when and how he did is doing and will do? It’s not what we do, it’s what we believe. If we believe we will do…all his commands….namely LOVE HIM AND OTHERS with the love he gave us. This Torah is timeless….everlasting. All other instructions fall UNDER this. His word was Love. He tried to get us to understand it in many ways at many times in history.

I’ll end with this. Charles, I find you frequently stating the purpose of the law was to bring you to faith. Or something along those lines. You esteem the law of Moshe saying it leads to Yeshua, as in Yeshua will lead you into all the law given Moshe. I find this contrary to many things the talmidim said. Especially Shaul. The law was given to magnify your sins. Cause a proliferation of them. The law exposes your sinfulness, and in so doing it causes you to realize you need Yeshua. To remove the law from you lest it crush you to death. The law only leads to Yeshua in that by knowing the law you know how sinful you are and how much in need of Yeshua to do his thing for you.

gabriele

11th August 2005, 09:31 PM

I posted this in another thread...perhaps before your time here gabriele, so I will take the opportunity to post it again. :)

The reason why Yahshua did not allow the adulterous woman to be stoned, was not because He changed the penalty of adultery through abolishing the Law. So why then did He NOT condemn the woman caught in the very act of adultery?

John 8:3-11, "And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act. Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou? This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not. So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground. And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst. When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee? She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

This passage clearly shows us that Yahshua was following Yahweh's Law, NOT changing it. It would have been strange if Yahshua, when he was not a judge (verse 15 You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one.), and had not the witnesses before him to examine them (verse 10), nor a confession from the accused, and when she had not been tried and condemned by the law and legal judges, should have taken upon him to condemn her. This being the case, it appears why Yahshua avoided giving an answer to the question of the Scribes and Pharisees.

What took place in John 8 follows the Old Testament law on punishing adultery. A woman accused of adultery could not be stoned to death if:

She did not confess her crime, or
There were no witnesses:
Numbers 35:30 Whoever kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the testimony of witnesses; but one witness is not sufficient testimony against a person for the death penalty.
Deuteronomy 17:6 Whoever is deserving of death shall be put to death on the testimony of two or three witnesses; he shall not be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
Deuteronomy 19:15 One witness shall not rise against a man concerning any iniquity or any sin that he commits; by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established.
... and
There was no judge to pronounce sentence:
Deuteronomy 19:17then both men in the controversy shall stand before the LORD, before the priests and the judges who serve in those days. 18And the judges shall make careful inquiry, and indeed, if the witness is a false witness, who has testified falsely against his brother, 19then you shall do to him as he thought to have done to his brother; so you shall put away the evil from among you. 20And those who remain shall hear and fear, and hereafter they shall not again commit such evil among you. 21Your eye shall not pity: life shall be for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot..

When Yahshua said, "Neither do I condemn thee," this is to be taken in the sense of judicial condemnation, or of passing sentence as a magistrate, for this was what they had arraigned her for in front of him. It was not to obtain his opinion about adultery, but to obtain the condemnation of the woman. As he claimed no authority to magistrate, he said that he did not exercise it, and should not condemn her to die.

This is proven by Yahshua's statement a few verses later, when he said, "I judge no man" John 8:15. Elsewhere, He said, "who made me a judge or a divider over you?" Luke 12:14. Yahshua also said, "for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world" John 12:47. Yahshua was not a judge, so he could not pass judgment upon the woman. And even if he was a judge, God's Law prohibited him from passing judgment without any accusers or witnesses.

When Yahshua said, "He that is without sin among you [He that is not guilty: his own conscience being the judge], let him [as a witness] first cast a stone at her" verse 7, he was actually confirming Yahweh's Law, not changing it. Under the law, the witnesses were to cast the first stone Deuteronomy 17:7-8. Yahshua maintained and vindicated the law, but imposed a condition which they had overlooked. The one who executed the law must be free from the same crime, lest by stoning the woman he condemn himself as worthy of a like death.

This was in order that the witness might feel his responsibility in giving evidence, as he was also to be the executioner. Yahshua therefore put them to the test. Without pronouncing on her case, he directed them, if any of them were innocent, to perform the office of executioner. This was said, evidently, well knowing their guilt, and well knowing that no one would dare to do it.

Yahshua considered her act of adultery to be a sin, he did not change that. He told her, "Go, and sin no more." In other words, He basically told her, "You have sinned. You have been detected and accused. The sin is great. But I do not claim power to condemn you to die, and, as your accusers have left you, my direction to you is that you sin no more."

Therefore, this passage teaches us:

1. That Yahshua claimed no authority to magistrate.

2. That he regarded the action of which they accused her as sin.

3. That he knew the hearts and lives of men.

4. That men are often very zealous in accusing others of that of which they themselves are guilty.

5. That Yahshua was endowed with wonderful wisdom in meeting the devices of his enemies, and eluding their deep-laid plans to involve him in ruin.

The scribes and Pharisees were the prosecutors and they brought her before Yahshua to be the judge. They argued that Moses commanded that such a woman should be stoned. But they wanted to know how this new King Yahshua would respond.

Verse six reveals their evil intent. They were tempting him, that they might accuse Him. Yahshua stooped down and with his finger wrote on the ground as if he had not heard them. Finally He said, "He that is without sin among you, cast the first stone." He was putting them on trial first. If they wanted to judge her, then they needed to be on trial first. The scribes and Pharisees must have been outraged.

So, she didn't pay the full penalty of the law. But, they left her alone because their lives were also in sin.

Yahshua also knew full well that none of them could even pretend to be sinless with any degree of believability. In bringing the woman accused of adultery, they had all conspired to sin! A woman cannot be found in the act of adultery without also a man being found with her, yet no man was brought with the accused. Also, as far as the guilty are concerned, Moses’ law says that “they” shall surely be put to death, not that “she” alone shall be put to death.

Shalom from Bon

The bottom line is, Yeshua did not allow people to stone her because he did not come to destroy, but to save. Your reply makes it seem that deep down, God still wanted her dead!

gabriele

gabriele

11th August 2005, 09:34 PM

Yeshua is the living Torah and yes He did die that I may live. He lives in me, and you should see Torah as Yeshua reflects it through my life. Now that is the living breathing Torah that Yeshua was talking about. Ever study the Temple of God which you are to be. Yeshua is to be the High Priest. The Temple of God is laid out at Mount Sinai, which is the example of the true which is in heaven. Just like Thy kingdom come, thy Will be done on earth as it is in heaven...

Mainstream Messianic Judaism teaches that the Torah does not save. There is not Law that gives life, if it did, there was no need for yeshua - you simply keep the Law that promises life.

That Law does not exist.

The Law does not save. It never has, it never will. Only ONE thing saves:

THE BLOOD.

capriele

gabriele

11th August 2005, 09:36 PM

. What He did on the cross was just one particle of the great plan of salvation.

WHAT? How can you demote the cross like that? A PARTICLE?

Friend, the cross is EVERYTHING. NOT a "particle."

gabriele :sigh:

visionary

11th August 2005, 09:39 PM

Mainstream Messianic Judaism teaches that the Torah does not save. There is not Law that gives life, if it did, there was no need for yeshua - you simply keep the Law that promises life.

That Law does not exist.

The Law does not save. It never has, it never will. Only ONE thing saves:

THE BLOOD.

caprieleYou seem to have a misunderstanding of the importance of the blood. It is skewed, could be because of your gentile christian upbringing. There is a better balance between living Torah and faith in Yeshua. They are not two separate things but one and the same. IT is like two sides of the same coin. Can't have one side without the other.

gabriele

11th August 2005, 09:40 PM

What I wrote was about humility, not self-righteous Pharisaism. Please re-read what I wrote. I never said Torah keeping would keep me or anyone else safe. What I said was to walk a walk of fear and trembling at who HE is compared to the nothing that we are, constantly remembering that we are not our own, but His.

When we have heard something out of the mouth of YHVH, are we to obey it? Or should we ignore it, second-guess it, minimize it, rationalize not doing it?

I submit that it a simple matter of having a humble child-like heart that says, "Yes, Abba" and then just DOES what He says. We truly can be slaves to righteousness. It is our Master who says so.

Matthew 4:4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

It all goes back to the beginning:

Genesis 3:1Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

"Did YHVH really say [fill in the blank]?" is the same tactic used against us to this day!

It is a lie from the pit of hell that tells us that we should not obey our Master or even that we cannot obey Him. Would He, the loving Father that He is, truly tell us to do something without enabling us to do it? Why are we told that Zechariah and Elizabeth were blameless and kept all the commandments? Is that a lie? Or is the impossibility of being obedient the true lie?

Paul was blameless too...and a murderer headed for hell.

Please, commandment by commandment, prove to me how you keep the whole Law - surely someone of your stature gives to the poor, is gracious and forgiving, never gets angry at a brother...come on. Don't fool yourself....

gabriele

visionary

11th August 2005, 09:50 PM

. These truths contained in the most Holy are sacred and immutable and as unchanging as God is.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.Ephesians 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: Can you hold the Spirit of God within you perfectly? Now the Bride may present herself spotless before the groom. 1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 Kings 8:61 Let your heart therefore be perfect with the LORD our God, to walk in his statutes, and to keep his commandments, as at this day. Psalm 18:30 As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Psalm 18:32 It is God that girdeth me with strength, and maketh my way perfect.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psalm 37:37 Mark the perfect man, and behold the upright: for the end of that man is peace.
Psalm 50:2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
Psalm 101:2 I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.
Psalm 119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad. Proverbs 4:18 But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.
Proverbs 11:5 The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.

You see all the Lord is looking for in the final harvest are those who by faith are walking in truth in the last days.