What's up with the OCL? Why are they so anti-Orthodox?

[MariaRegina]

I've had it with this politically correct and modernist group that wants to do away with fasting and become more like the West.

What gives?

Why are these rich "Greek Orthodox" attorneys mettling with Orthodox affairs and then using pretty Icons in their mailings to deceive people?

This group almost single handedly got rid of Archbishop Sypridon because they didn't like him. How many other bishops and priests are they going to target?

/rant

[Servus Iesu]

How'd they get rid of the Bishop?

[tdcharles]

I have read some of their positions, and if you mean west as in the Western church then it's not true that their ideas are western. Their ideas are certainly in many ways Protestant (female clergy, open access to the altar, etc.) and modernist, but not Catholic, since Catholicism is opposed to both Protestantism and modernism (the latter of which encompasses the former). Exsurge Domine, Pascendi Dominici Gregis, etc., all lay testament to this.

[Shubunkin]

Please forgive me, but what is this OCL? I'm new to all of this, if you can indulge my silly questions. :confused:

[MariaRegina]

I have read some of their positions, and if you mean west as in the Western church then it's not true that their ideas are western. Their ideas are certainly in many ways Protestant (female clergy, open access to the altar, etc.) and modernist, but not Catholic, since Catholicism is opposed to both Protestantism and modernism (the latter of which encompasses the former). Exsurge Domine, Pascendi Dominici Gregis, etc., all lay testament to this.

That is exactly what I meant by West ....

The protestant aberrations: female priests and married bishops, unbridled birth control, abortion, reduced fast, getting rid of chanters, getting rid of monastics, etc.

And then they dare to call themselves "Orthodox Christian Laity" - they don't represent me.

[Moros]

This is what happens when a religion becomes a culture.

[Shubunkin]

Again, what is OCL? What does OCL stand for? I'm new to all of this, and never heard of this before. :o

I feel like a dummy here. :help:

[RobNJ]

Again, what is OCL? What does OCL stand for? I'm new to all of this, and never heard of this before. :o

I feel like a dummy here. :help:


"Orthodox" Christian Laity

[MrJim]

Can you elaborate on the purpose/mission of OCL?

[Michael the Iconographer]

This is what happens when a religion becomes a culture.

Yes, Orthodoxy is not a culture. It is not about being Greek, Russian, Ukranian, Serbian, etc. Orthodoxy is about the apostolic faith in Jesus Christ!

[Shubunkin]

"Orthodox" Christian Laity

Thank you! :hug:

[Vasya Davidovich]

Can you elaborate on the purpose/mission of OCL?
I don't think anybody really knows, including the members thereof.

To cause division? To bring shame upon the faithful for the abuse of a common name, that of Orthodoxy?

Somehow, I doubt that is the "official" purpose/mission of OCL.

[Vasya Davidovich]

The goals of OCL:

Promote the great Commission of Pentecost by action-oriented spiritual renewal and missionary programs (Mat.28:19).
Educate the Laity about its canonical role in the life of the church.
Advocate the election of clergy and laity to National and Diocesan Councils and Assemblies.
Promote the restoration of the role of the laity in the selection of priests, bishops, and all other ordained members of the church.
Advocate complete fiscal disclosure and accountability at the National, Diocesan, and parish levels with full, active lay participation in fiscal governance at all levels.
Encourage increased spirituality in the church through the expansion of outreach ministries to meet the needs of the faithful.
Advocate full disclosure on church problems and crises, without equivocation, regardless of how painful it may be.
Support more sensitivity regarding the needs of parish clergy and the elimination of their arbitrary treatment.
Advocate restoration of the order of the lay diaconate for both men and women and promote lay vocations for qualified individuals.
Advocate meaningful lay and clergy participation in resolving the issue of the canonical unity of the various orthodox jurisdictions in the United States under the spiritual guidance of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

http://www.ocl.org/qa.htm

[gzt]

Why do the heathen rage?

[Vasya Davidovich]

These two points bother me the most.
...
Advocate full disclosure on church problems and crises, without equivocation, regardless of how painful it may be.
...
Advocate restoration of the order of the lay diaconate for both men and women and promote lay vocations for qualified individuals.
They sound like code for a) gossip and dissension, and b) post-feminist modernism.

[MariaRegina]

The goals of OCL:

Promote the great Commission of Pentecost by action-oriented spiritual renewal and missionary programs (Mat.28:19).
Educate the Laity about its canonical role in the life of the church.
Advocate the election of clergy and laity to National and Diocesan Councils and Assemblies.
Promote the restoration of the role of the laity in the selection of priests, bishops, and all other ordained members of the church.
Advocate complete fiscal disclosure and accountability at the National, Diocesan, and parish levels with full, active lay participation in fiscal governance at all levels.
Encourage increased spirituality in the church through the expansion of outreach ministries to meet the needs of the faithful.
Advocate full disclosure on church problems and crises, without equivocation, regardless of how painful it may be.
Support more sensitivity regarding the needs of parish clergy and the elimination of their arbitrary treatment.
Advocate restoration of the order of the lay diaconate for both men and women and promote lay vocations for qualified individuals.
Advocate meaningful lay and clergy participation in resolving the issue of the canonical unity of the various orthodox jurisdictions in the United States under the spiritual guidance of the Ecumenical Patriarch.

http://www.ocl.org/qa.htm

nice cover for their real purpose - lay control of the Church by the rich attorneys.

[MariaRegina]

These two points bother me the most.

They sound like code for a) gossip and dissension, and b) post-feminist modernism.

Unfortunately, I fear that you are correct.

Now, let's pray that their rich attorneys don't get wind of this thread, because they are very selective on how they want their "truth" presented, hypocrites that they are.

[MariaRegina]

Isn't lay diaconate a misnomer?

Deacons are part of the clergy.

I think they want what the Catholic Church currently has: lay Eucharistic ministers and female acolytes.

[Vasya Davidovich]

Isn't lay diaconate a misnomer?

Deacons are part of the clergy.

I think they want what the Catholic Church currently has: lay Eucharistic ministers and female acolytes.
Nice one, Aria. I missed that. :doh:

And I suspect you are right as to the rest of it. Lord have mercy. :crosseo:

[Matrona]

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Seems like it would be more profitable to concentrate on one's own salvation than to engage in the very sins one accuses of others.

[Greg the byzantine]

:crosseo: Lets pray

[Vasya Davidovich]

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Seems like it would be more profitable to concentrate on one's own salvation than to engage in the very sins one accuses of others.
Would that be gossip or dissension?

[MariaRegina]

Judge not, lest ye be judged.

Seems like it would be more profitable to concentrate on one's own salvation than to engage in the very sins one accuses of others.



Discernment is very important here ... so please don't judge us.

At times in the past, we have been invaded by people who support the OCL and the result is thread closures and hostile feelings in TAW.

We are just trying to get to the root of their problem.

Just like you got to the root of your rabbit problem at your apartment.

If you don't take care of the stink, it just gets worse. :D

[Matrona]

Would that be gossip or dissension?
Both.

[Vasya Davidovich]

Both.
LOL

That's what I like about you, Matrona. You don't mince words.

I'll shut up. Would you prefer that I edited out my posts?

[Matrona]

LOL

That's what I like about you, Matrona. You don't mince words.

I'll shut up. Would you prefer that I edited out my posts?
Listen to your conscience.

[88Devin07]

Achem... Would their actions warrant an anathema declaration?

[Matrona]

Achem... Would their actions warrant an anathema declaration?
That's for bishops to decide. :)

[MariaRegina]

According to my priest, the OCL leadership should have been excommunicated, but the Bishops did not want to alienate the laity.

The leadership "stole" the mailing list from the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese and did several huge mailings without permission. I received a copy of these mailings and they were absolutely disgusting. They used beautiful icons to add legitimacy to their misrepresentations. In this mailing, they bitterly attacked Archbishop Spyridon and other clerics. This is called gossip, defamation, and dissension.

People should know what the OCL is and avoid them, since they are advocating women priests, etc.

They never did repent or apologize for the unauthorized use of that confidential mailing list. They were very arrogant about it.

[choirfiend]

Well then, let's pray for them.

Lord, have mercy.

[MariaRegina]

Well then, let's pray for them.

Lord, have mercy.

Amen

[88Devin07]

Is it possible for the bishops to change their minds? They must remember the Arian Controversy, not only that, but they must remember that we are in a time when the beginning of the great falling out of faithful is happening... We must prevent the Orthodox Faithful from falling as other. If that means alienating the OCL, then so be it... But the church must be protected and preserved.

[MariaRegina]

I think the bishops believe that by ignoring the OCL, it may eventually disintegrate.

However, the attorneys who are behind the OCL have lots of money.

It's kind of like blackmail.

Unfortunately, those attorneys have sued the Archdiocese and have cost them thousands of dollars in legal and court fees. And who eventually pays for these legal fees -- we the laity.

[88Devin07]

How could excommunicating them be so hard for teh bishops to do though?

[choirfiend]

Let's leave the judgment up to God, the spiritual medicine up to the bishops, and the attacks up to those who know no better. Pray for those in the organization, have the information available to discourage interested parties, and turn to pluck the plank from our own eyes.

[MariaRegina]

People are so naive.

Yes, we should pray for this insidious organization, but we must call a spade a spade.

Christ said that we can know a person by the fruits produced ... and the OCL has borne rotten fruit.

Unfortunately, some of our bishops are political hostages who don't want to excommunicate attorneys who have money. We must pray for the bishops too.



I was talking with a monk from Mount Athos and he said that the holy monks don't want to become priests and bishops precisely because of the politics involved. They know if they become priests ... that they are only one step away from becoming a bishop.

[88Devin07]

It isn't judgement though, it's protection... If we excommunicate them, we would be protecting the Orthodox Church.

[prodromos]

Recall the circumstances under which a former bishop of Pentapolis was removed from his position and eventually forced to leave the country. Groups like the OCL have always existed throughout the history of the church and it has sometimes pleased God to use them to reveal His saints to the world.

John

[gzt]

Devin: You can't just go excommunicating people willy-nilly. Don't worry about it.