If gentiles are not obligated to Torah questions

[MyLittleWonders]

So, we were having a discussion with our rabbi today, and even though we disagree on whether gentiles are required to follow Torah, he really is a neat guy and I like talking with him. But, our conversation got me thinking ...

1. If gentiles are not required to anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts, then is it okay in God's eyes for them to eat pork?

2. If gentiles are not required to anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts, then is it okay for them to keep easter, christmas, halloween, and ignore the Holy Days?

3. ... is it okay for them to gather on Sunday and ignore the command of keeping the Sabbath holy?

4. ... is it okay for them to disregard the teachings of the Torah and stay stuck in a strange form of paganism/sin/turning away from God?

Basically, my questions all focus on this: where does that leave gentiles who have come to faith in Yeshua and attach themselves to the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Our rabbi says that we are blessed for keeping Torah (he doesn't discourage it at all fortunately), but he also stresses that believing non-Jews are not expected to do anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts. Personally, I see that leaving us believing gentiles in no-man's land. Any thoughts?

[Servus Iesu]

With all due respect... as a gentile Catholic it seems to me that these questions reflect the problems I have with Messianic Judaism. It seems to me that Messianic Judaism teaches Torah observance as the way to salvation. As I read through Romans and Galatians I get a very different impression from the Apostle.

These are questions posed in good faith and I hope you will not regard them as attacks.

[Steve Petersen]

Tim Hegg addresses this question about One Law on his website: www.torahresource.com. This is a response to the UMJC and MJAA position that Torah if only for Jews.

[Bruce101]

With all due respect... as a gentile Catholic it seems to me that these questions reflect the problems I have with Messianic Judaism. It seems to me that Messianic Judaism teaches Torah observance as the way to salvation. As I read through Romans and Galatians I get a very different impression from the Apostle.

These are questions posed in good faith and I hope you will not regard them as attacks.

Actually,,, I have never heard a MJ say that Torah observance was required for salvation.
However there is a popular misunderstanding among non-MJ's that we believe this, which is simply not true.
We believe in Torah observance as a lifestyle, but not as a way to salvation, never.

Bruce

[Steve Petersen]

Actually,,, I have never heard a MJ say that Torah observance was required for salvation.
However there is a popular misunderstanding among non-MJ's that we believe this, which is simply not true.
We believe in Torah observance as a lifestyle, but not as a way to salvation, never.

Bruce

It's almost a reflex, isn't it? :sigh:

[MyLittleWonders]

Thanks Steve ... we have read Tim Hegg's rebuttal to the UMJC and MJAA paper. Unfortunately for us, Daniel Juster is a good friend and mentor of our rabbi's. He's also very good friends with David Stern, so we have a lot going against us in this discussion. ;)

Bruce has it right in that Torah is not a path to salvation ... it is a path of holy living for God. :)

[Bruce101]

1. If gentiles are not required to anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts, then is it okay in God's eyes for them to eat pork?

That is using extremely wrong logic. Only obey the four? What about not stealing? He seems to be loosely following the rules of the Noachide.
The four that he mentions are to make new converts more palatable to the Jews so that they can share in synagogue services. All of the rules have to do with idol worship. The very next verse says that they sit in the synagogue every Sabbath can learn the rest of the Torah from there.

2. If gentiles are not required to anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts, then is it okay for them to keep easter, christmas, halloween, and ignore the Holy Days?

This is a matter of opinion. (the keeping of God's appointments) as are the other questions.

I have my opinions, but I will pass for the moment and see what happens along. But for sure, your Rabbi is wrong in this regard.

Bruce

[Servus Iesu]

Actually,,, I have never heard a MJ say that Torah observance was required for salvation.
However there is a popular misunderstanding among non-MJ's that we believe this, which is simply not true.
We believe in Torah observance as a lifestyle, but not as a way to salvation, never.

Bruce

Good. So then you would agree that I am under no obligation to observe Jewish festivals and new moons and sabbaths? You would agree that I am not bound to any kosher dietary laws and that all things are lawful for me?

Personally I believe that the law has value for mortifying the flesh. Through the restrictions of the law one could learn virtues and continence but keeping the Torah is in no way necessary to salvation.

[Charles YTK]

Good. So then you would agree that I am under no obligation to observe Jewish festivals and new moons and sabbaths? You would agree that I am not bound to any kosher dietary laws and that all things are lawful for me? Sure all things. Like homosexuality, idol worship.


Yes you are correct. As a gentile you do not have to keep the law. Neither does a Jew HAVE to keep the law. We can sin every moment of our lives. Sin is defined as breaking the commandments of God by the way. "I Jn 3:[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Your church teaches you that it is OK to sin that it doesn't matter to God. So you are comfortable in that doctrine of sin and allow Grace to cover.

For we who are Messianic, we see it differently. We believe that when we are saved through grace, that we are no longer to live in sinful ways. We are called to be sons and also share in the commonwealth of Israel and are partakers of her covenants.(Eph 2). In fact we are no longer just Gentiles as such but have become part of Israel. God, we believe, expects us to live in holiness, righteousness. If you look up the word "righteous" it means to be obedient to Gods law,, obeying the divine commandments. Yes we all sometimes fall short, but God is merciful and if we repent, which means to turn around and once again follow God's way, then he forgives us and restores us. His directions/teachings are called, in Hebrew, Torah, translated in English simply as law. Paul tells us that the spiritual man's mind must be subject to the law of God or we are not his (Ro 8). John says that if we say we know him and fail to keep his commandments, then we are a liar and there is no truth in us. To abide in Messiah is the process of living according to his commandments. (1 JN 2) During the tribulation , those who are over-comers, who have victory over the beast are know by two faithful attributes, They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah.(Rev 14:17) Yeshua says, if you fail to keep the commandments and teach others the same you will be called least in the Kingdom of God.(Matt5-7)

So if you do not care to abide in Him, and do not care to know God and be known of him and do not care if you are the least in the Kingdom and are told to depart from him on the day of Judgment that we all face, then go ahead and live in rebellion against his commandments and sin. You do not HAVE to keep them. Then you will face God with your own works to show. As will those who chose to honor his Grace through a life of devotion and obedience as he called us to live.

Charles

[Mikhail]

Thanks Steve ... we have read Tim Hegg's rebuttal to the UMJC and MJAA paper. Unfortunately for us, Daniel Juster is a good friend and mentor of our rabbi's. He's also very good friends with David Stern, so we have a lot going against us in this discussion. ;)

Bruce has it right in that Torah is not a path to salvation ... it is a path of holy living for God. :)

Hi,
It strikes me that to say a gentile is live differently to a man or woman born of Yehudah that they are in effect saying that their is still a difference and we do not want you to blurr the line between Yehudah and the Gentiles.

Also as I study the Prophets particularly Hosea, Ezekiel and Zakaryah that their is something to this return of the house of Israel (Northern Kingdom).

It also explains to me why certain aspects in the Church has always felt an overwhelming compassion and risked their lives to say a descendant of Yehudah that is perhaps because that Israel that cannot but help their brother in trouble as the saying goes blood is thicker than water even if seperated and scattered by 60 generations or so.

It would also explain why so many in the church have an unexplainable compulsion to support Israel and even to maintain aspects of the Torah at times. But like the Northern Kingdom they always have a tendency to mix the faith in the God of Jacob with pagan forms of worship as well.
Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

[Bruce101]

Good. So then you would agree that I am under no obligation to observe Jewish festivals and new moons and sabbaths? You would agree that I am not bound to any kosher dietary laws and that all things are lawful for me?

Personally I believe that the law has value for mortifying the flesh. Through the restrictions of the law one could learn virtues and continence but keeping the Torah is in no way necessary to salvation.

Let me put it this way, the Torah is still in effect, the penalties has been paid.
I still obey the Torah, so as not to dishonor the paid penalties.
And still, salvation is a separate issue. Grace and law do not oppose each other, one does not stand without the other.

Bruce

[Charles YTK]

Those who teach that Gentiles do not have to keep the Torah but Jews do, have effectively rebuilt the wall of partition which Yeshua tore down in his bloody death. These people say that Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles; but if that is so, then we should pay attention to what Paul says, because he teaches the unity of all men, without respect of Gender, or ethnicity. We are all the same and live by the same rules given to all men by the same one God. Gentiles have been brought near and made to be part of the commonwealth of Israel and to share in her covenants, just as the prophets said. We all bring our offerings and praise to the house of prayer for all nations.

Can you imagine having a church where there are two different groups of people by ethnicity, Jews on one side Gentiles on the other. You guys over there keep the law, and you folks on this side of the room you do whatever you want. Now lets all go down stairs and have fellowship but you gentiles take your pork roasts out back and eat them, and your prawns, we don't even want those in the building.

OH yes lets rebuild the wall, in fact you Gentiles just stay Christian and live by all that stuff and the rest of us will do Judaism because we are the only REAL people of God.


If this is the Gospel of Messiah, I don't want it. It is prejudice, racist, and demeaning. I want the Gospel where the blood of Messiah is applied to my heart and my life the same as everyone else, And I want to live according to his instructions so that I too can abide in his love and grace. I want to be able to enter the kingdom and not be rejected because I lived outside of his law.

Charles

[Servus Iesu]

Sure all things. Like homosexuality, idol worship.


Yes you are correct. As a gentile you do not have to keep the law. Neither does a Jew HAVE to keep the law. We can sin every moment of our lives. Sin is defined as breaking the commandments of God by the way. "I Jn 3:[4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." Your church teaches you that it is OK to sin that it doesn't matter to God. So you are comfortable in that doctrine of sin and allow Grace to cover.

For we who are Messianic, we see it differently. We believe that when we are saved through grace, that we are no longer to live in sinful ways. We are called to be sons and also share in the commonwealth of Israel and are partakers of her covenants.(Eph 2). In fact we are no longer just Gentiles as such but have become part of Israel. God, we believe, expects us to live in holiness, righteousness. If you look up the word "righteous" it means to be obedient to Gods law,, obeying the divine commandments. Yes we all sometimes fall short, but God is merciful and if we repent, which means to turn around and once again follow God's way, then he forgives us and restores us. His directions/teachings are called, in Hebrew, Torah, translated in English simply as law. Paul tells us that the spiritual man's mind must be subject to the law of God or we are not his (Ro 8). John says that if we say we know him and fail to keep his commandments, then we are a liar and there is no truth in us. To abide in Messiah is the process of living according to his commandments. (1 JN 2) During the tribulation , those who are over-comers, who have victory over the beast are know by two faithful attributes, They keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua the Messiah.(Rev 14:17) Yeshua says, if you fail to keep the commandments and teach others the same you will be called least in the Kingdom of God.(Matt5-7)

So if you do not care to abide in Him, and do not care to know God and be known of him and do not care if you are the least in the Kingdom and are told to depart from him on the day of Judgment that we all face, then go ahead and live in rebellion against his commandments and sin. You do not HAVE to keep them. Then you will face God with your own works to show. As will those who chose to honor his Grace through a life of devotion and obedience as he called us to live.

Charles

Peace Charles!

If I have said something offensive point it out to me. If not why do you go into full out attack mode?

I believe that the commandments of God consist in the old law and the new law. The old law was superseded by the new law of Jesus Christ. We are certainly bound to all of the commandments of the new law but nowhere do I see the New Testament commanding me to keep the Torah. As the Apostle said: "For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:14-15).

As for dietary laws again the Apostle tells us: "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:23-26).

I leave you with the words of Our Blessed Redeemer: And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." (St. Mark 7:17-23)

[Bruce101]

Peace Charles!

If I have said something offensive point it out to me. If not why do you go into full out attack mode?

I believe that the commandments of God consist in the old law and the new law. The old law was superseded by the new law of Jesus Christ. We are certainly bound to all of the commandments of the new law but nowhere do I see the New Testament commanding me to keep the Torah. As the Apostle said: "For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:14-15).

As for dietary laws again the Apostle tells us: "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:23-26).

I leave you with the words of Our Blessed Redeemer: And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." (St. Mark 7:17-23)

Oh boy, where do I start?
I will keep this short, and let someone else expand on it.
Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." (St. Mark 7:17-23)

Jesus was not making a point about food, he was addressing the issue of traditions that were taught as if God gave them, he was addressing the issue of Rabbinic authority. Also the print that is in bold is a later addition, it is not in all versions of the Bible, it is commentary that is not inspired.

"All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:23-26).
This is not about kosher or non kosher, Paul is addressing the worry about eating meat offered to idols, and is saying don't worry about it. Meats would be offered at the local pagan temple, and then be put out to market. There was worry that meat bought in the market might be meat that at one time was offered to idols.

More later

Bruce

[Charles YTK]

Peace Charles!

If I have said something offensive point it out to me. If not why do you go into full out attack mode?
Nope. I'm not in attack mode, I am just passionate about keeping the truth up front. Sorry if I seem too strong. My apologies for that.

I believe that the commandments of God consist in the old law and the new law. The old law was superseded by the new law of Jesus Christ. We are certainly bound to all of the commandments of the new law but nowhere do I see the New Testament commanding me to keep the Torah. As the Apostle said: "For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:14-15).

Ok well first off as one who is saved by Yeshua you are in the New covenant. And the New covenant has this outstanding feature, that the TORAH is written on the hearts of all men and they keep that Torah out of love for God. See Jeremiah 31:31-34

Next the Middle wall of Partition that Paul speaks about (EPh 2) is actually "HEDGE" and means doctrine. It was the Pharisaical doctrine which made a difference between Gentile and Jew which Torah itself did not make. This is what he tore down, the doctrine occassioned by a missuse of Torah to create a division between Jews and Gentiles and which required Gentiles to convert and be circumcised before becoming a believers in Messiah. Keep in mind that Torah does not make this difference between the Jews and Gentiles. Rabbinical doctrine did.

As for dietary laws again the Apostle tells us: "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:23-26).
And what the Apostle is talking about is not Kosher and traif (unclean) He is speaking of ritually unacceptable because it was not slaughtered in a Rabbinical way, or was slaughtered by Gentiles. These are Rabbinical purity laws and not Torah commandments, not Kosher laws of Torah. Yeshua, Paul and all the disciples were Kosher eating. The question here is about the need to maintain ritual purity. To the Rabbis if a Gentile slaughtered the meat it was unclean. Torah does not say this.

I leave you with the words of Our Blessed Redeemer: And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." (St. Mark 7:17-23)

The comment (Thus he declared all food clean) is not in the original text at all. It is a comment added to the NASB. Moreover the issue is not Kosher food at all. That is not what they are talking about. Go back to the beginning of the story at Chapter 7. The issue is that the disciples were eating with unwashed hands. There is no accusation that they were not eating Kosher food. If they had been eating non Kosher food, then this would certainly have come up, because that would have been a violation of Torah and a greater sin. But the accusation is that they were eating with unwashed hands. By Rabbinical laws, this made your Kosher food ritually unclean and unfit to eat. This is not a Torah regulation and is only a Rabbinical law, and one which Yeshua condemened as making Goods Torah of no effect. Rabbinical laws are not Torah at all. No one not even Jews are obligated to keep the Rabbinical laws that are contrary to Torah.

So these Pharisees used their own Ritual purity laws to bring a false accusation against the Master and the disciples which is even a greater sin, for it was motivated from an impure heart that wanted Yeshua arrested and killed.

What is food is good to eat and passes through the human system and out into the drain. Food is Kosher. What is not Kosher is not food. What Yeshua said was that all Kosher food is good to eat even if you have not observed the Rabbinical traditons of purity and hand washing.

Now I ask you to read the verses again in this knowledge and tell me what you see. I would love to talk with you more and am willing to go step by step with you. Be at peace brother. I am not as harsh as my words sometimes appear

Charles

[Servus Iesu]

Oh boy, where do I start?
I will keep this short, and let someone else expand on it.
Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." (St. Mark 7:17-23)

Jesus was not making a point about food, he was addressing the issue of traditions that were taught as if God gave them, he was addressing the issue of Rabbinic authority. Also the print that is in bold is a later addition, it is not in all versions of the Bible, it is commentary that is not inspired.

How you come to the conclusion that Jesus was not making a point about food is beyond me. whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" Not sure how Jesus could have phrased it any clearer. What goes into you (ie food) cannot defile you.

"All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:23-26).
This is not about kosher or non kosher, Paul is addressing the worry about eating meat offered to idols, and is saying don't worry about it. Meats would be offered at the local pagan temple, and then be put out to market. There was worry that meat bought in the market might be meat that at one time was offered to idols.

More later

Bruce

Don't you think some of this meat (or rather much of it) was unkosher?

[Bruce101]

Peace Charles!

If I have said something offensive point it out to me. If not why do you go into full out attack mode?

I believe that the commandments of God consist in the old law and the new law. The old law was superseded by the new law of Jesus Christ. We are certainly bound to all of the commandments of the new law but nowhere do I see the New Testament commanding me to keep the Torah. As the Apostle said: "For he is our peace, who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace" (Ephesians 2:14-15).

As for dietary laws again the Apostle tells us: "All things are lawful," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful," but not all things build up. Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. For "the earth is the Lord's, and everything in it" (1 Corinthians 10:23-26).

I leave you with the words of Our Blessed Redeemer: And when he had entered the house, and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.) And he said, "What comes out of a man is what defiles a man. For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, fornication, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a man." (St. Mark 7:17-23)

but nowhere do I see the New Testament commanding me to keep the Torah.
Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (to rightly interpret)
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

What comes first is what everything else should be judged by. It sets the standard. Because of this "Law of First Mention" I see it like this;
Keeping it all in the right perspective,
1. The Mosiac Law (or the teachings and instructions of God)
2.The Old Testament Kings and Prophets
3. The writings, wisdom literature
4. The Law of Jesus
5. Teaching of the disciple that were with Jesus
6 Teachings of Paul

Nowhere is the Torah spoken badly about in all of the whole Bible, except for the writings of Paul.
Either Paul is wrong and does not belong in the Bible,,, or Paul is misunderstood.
I believe that the latter is the case.

Bruce

[Bon]

Steve Petersen, you said beautifully in the
"4QMMT-A Sectarian Manifesto" thread:


"If I hadn't believed it, I wouldn't have seen it!"

Bon

[Charles YTK]

How you come to the conclusion that Jesus was not making a point about food is beyond me. whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" Not sure how Jesus could have phrased it any clearer. What goes into you (ie food) cannot defile you.

Look a the passage. Here is the accusation of the Pharises. It is not about Kosher food. It is about eating with unwashed hands, which is not Kosher law, but Rabbinical purity ordinances.

MK 7:1 Then came together unto him the Pharisees, and certain of the scribes, which came from Jerusalem. [2] And when they saw some of his disciples eat bread with defiled, that is to say, with unwashen, hands, they found fault. [3] For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders. [4] And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

Kosher food law is not in sight here. The Rabinnical ordinances and traditions said that if you were eating with unwashed hands, then your otherwise Kosher food is made to be unclean. Torah does not say this at all. The entire encounter is about Ritual purity traditions of the Pharisees.

[Charles YTK]

Bon,

Have you ever listened to the teaching by Daniel Lancaster on Yankee doodle? This is so true and here it is yet again.

[Bruce101]

You said,
How you come to the conclusion that Jesus was not making a point about food is beyond me. whatever goes into a man from outside cannot defile him, since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" Not sure how Jesus could have phrased it any clearer. What goes into you (ie food) cannot defile you.

I reply. To a law keeping kosher eating Jew, nonkosher would not even be considered food. So when Jesus says that all food is clean, he is speaking on what he, a kosher eating Jew, considers to be food. A little more background on this set of verses, the Rabbinic authorities had established a tradition that if a person ate kosher food, without washing the hands first, then the kosher food would now be unkosher. Jesus is saying all kosher food is remains kosher whether or not hands were washed.

Bruce

[Servus Iesu]

So in effect 95% or more of Christians in the world are living in sin because they don't follow Torah?

I am not circumcised. Am I part of the covenant?

[Bruce101]

Bon,

Have you ever listened to the teaching by Daniel Lancaster on Yankee doodle? This is so true and here it is yet again.

I have, and amen!

Bruce

[Steve Petersen]

Lev 10:10 And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

Lev 20:25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean.


Ultimately, the Pharisees were neglecting to obey the commandments to distinguish between clean and unclean by holding that otherwise 'clean' meats somehow were forbidden (unclean.)

[Servus Iesu]

Bon,

Have you ever listened to the teaching by Daniel Lancaster on Yankee doodle? This is so true and here it is yet again.

Is that a Messianic codeword for Gentile?

[Charles YTK]

So in effect 95% or more of Christians in the world are living in sin because they don't follow Torah?

Yes, though they do not realize it. And this is what Yeshua said and Paul as well. See how this fits the Christain church:

MT 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The word iniquity means (Greek : Anomia) to live without law, because of neglect of it, because of ignorance of the law, to disregard God's commandments and law.



I am not circumcised. Am I part of the covenant?Yes 100%. Circumcision of Gentiles is part of a Rabbinical conversion ritual.This was not needed. See Acts 15 and Galatians It is not required by Torah. Paul says that if you keep the law, and live according to Gods law, and have faith in Yeshua you are every much a part of Israel and part of the covenant as a natural born Jew. Under the Sinai covenant Gentiles were not required to be circumcised to be part of that covenant. Only blood sons of Abraham are told to circumcise their sons. The same is true of the New covenant. You are part of it by faith, and the Torah is written on your heart so that you may keep it.

Charles

[Steve Petersen]

Is that a Messianic codeword for Gentile?

It's about macaroni!

[Bruce101]

So in effect 95% or more of Christians in the world are living in sin because they don't follow Torah?

I am not circumcised. Am I part of the covenant?

5% following the Torah is very generous.
It is my personal belief that we all live in sin, even if I keep all of the Torah that applies to me, I am still living in sin, however I am striving hard not to do so, and again, grace picks up where I fall short.:)
Grace and law are not opposites, one cannot stand without the other.



You are part of the covenant because of grace. And it is not so simple as circumcision.
The question was, did folks have to convert to full Rabbinical Judaism to get saved, the answer was no.

Bruce

[MyLittleWonders]

Can I just interject really quickly ... I am loving the dialogue here and really appreciate and respect the input by Steve, Bruce, Charles, Bon ... But Ryan, even though I appreciate what I am I hoping is your desire to learn more, this thread I'm afraid is going to get pulled or closed because of a debate. Please, feel free to invite us all over to GT to debate these points ... but please don't cloud this discussion with debate as I am seriously hoping to get some good answers to go back to my rabbi with. I do not agree with my rabbi on this issue as I stated in the OP. Unfortunately, he is very well versed in the UMJC and MJAA stance on gentiles and Torah. So, my questions were addressed really to other MJ's to help me address my rabbi in what I think are gross inconsistencies when one says that gentiles are not required to keep Torah.

[Bruce101]

It's about macaroni!

Yeah, the Bible is full of it!

Bruce

[Bruce101]

Can I just interject really quickly ... I am loving the dialogue here and really appreciate and respect the input by Steve, Bruce, Charles, Bon ... But Ryan, even though I appreciate what I am I hoping is your desire to learn more, this thread I'm afraid is going to get pulled or closed because of a debate. Please, feel free to invite us all over to GT to debate these points ... but please don't cloud this discussion with debate as I am seriously hoping to get some good answers to go back to my rabbi with. I do not agree with my rabbi on this issue as I stated in the OP. Unfortunately, he is very well versed in the UMJC and MJAA stance on gentiles and Torah. So, my questions were addressed really to other MJ's to help me address my rabbi in what I think are gross inconsistencies when one says that gentiles are not required to keep Torah.

I sent you a PM. Did you get it?
Bruce

[MyLittleWonders]

Charles, tell me more about Daniel Lancaster's teaching ... where can I find it on-line? I need to read and research as much as I can (of course, my rabbi looks at the Internet with great disdain ... then again, he's not very technologically savy ;)).

Again, I really love my rabbi, but I do think he is in error here, but it is hard being so new at all this to come to the table evenly.

What really gets me is today he was talking with us about the middle wall being down, and yet still makes a point that we are not obligated though allowed to keep Torah. When I brought up a question about eating pork if we are not under Torah, he sidestepped it very nicely and never did answer me. He is starting a series on Acts and thinks it will help us change our mind. ;) I told him that anything in Acts has to be weighed against Torah and the Tanach as a whole. I brought up how in Ruth, she is never considered a "convert" and is referred to as the Moabitess, yet it never mentions that she was under less of an "obligation" than the native Israelites around her. But again, that got side-stepped. *sigh*

[Steve Petersen]

"One faith, one Lord, One baptism, One New Man..." Two Laws...and a partridge in a pair tree!

That bird don't fly!

[Bon]

So, we were having a discussion with our rabbi today, and even though we disagree on whether gentiles are required to follow Torah, he really is a neat guy and I like talking with him. But, our conversation got me thinking ...

1. If gentiles are not required to anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts, then is it okay in God's eyes for them to eat pork?

2. If gentiles are not required to anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts, then is it okay for them to keep easter, christmas, halloween, and ignore the Holy Days?

3. ... is it okay for them to gather on Sunday and ignore the command of keeping the Sabbath holy?

4. ... is it okay for them to disregard the teachings of the Torah and stay stuck in a strange form of paganism/sin/turning away from God?

Basically, my questions all focus on this: where does that leave gentiles who have come to faith in Yeshua and attach themselves to the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? Our rabbi says that we are blessed for keeping Torah (he doesn't discourage it at all fortunately), but he also stresses that believing non-Jews are not expected to do anything more than the 4 prohibitions in Acts. Personally, I see that leaving us believing gentiles in no-man's land. Any thoughts?

Yes! :)

Let's not forget the next verse....(verse 21)
(21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

The discussion in progress before these verses, was whether Gentiles HAD TO BE CIRCUMCISED IN ORDER TO OBTAIN SALVATION.

Acts 15:1 And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”

At this time some of the Hebrews had come to believe, erroneously, that the blood of their circumcision was the blood that sealed the covenant with Yahweh. Paul taught that it is Yahshua's blood that seals the covenant, and so circumcision is no longer necessary, and certainly NOT to be enforced as a means of salvation. This was what was being referred to as the "yoke...which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear" not Yahweh's Law (Torah).

So, the group agreed not to trouble the Gentiles with cirumcision, but to write to them about FOUR MAJOR THINGS (a starting point in oder to cleanse the new believers in the sight of Yahweh); and then referred to the fact that the new gentile believers would be hearing the teaching of Moses every Sabbath.

These are the essentials to being a new believer in Yahshua. So, these Gentile believers were expected to be keeping the Sabbath, growing in, and learning Torah (Yahwehs teaching, guidance, and direction). Verse 21 is rarely quoted along with verse 20, because it deosn't fit into the "no Law" doctrine believed by many christians.

A correct understanding of these verses is very important. In their previous pagan worship, the gentiles had idols and temple prostitutes. They were being told right up front that this would not be aceptable worship before Yahweh. It was felt that they should also be informed about dietary laws where animals must not be strangled, but cut for the blood to be drained from the body. And, they must not drink the blood.

So, in summary, NO IDOLS, NO TEMPLE PROSTITUTES, KEEP THE DEITARY COMMANDMENTS (Lev 11), DRINK NO BLOOD, AND LEARN OF THE LAW EACH SABBATH...
...and to set the record straight.......
SALVATION COMES ONLY THROUGH FAITH, AND NOT BY ANY OTHER MEANS, (as these certain men from Judea were teaching).

Bon

[Bruce101]

Can I just interject really quickly ... I am loving the dialogue here and really appreciate and respect the input by Steve, Bruce, Charles, Bon ... But Ryan, even though I appreciate what I am I hoping is your desire to learn more, this thread I'm afraid is going to get pulled or closed because of a debate. Please, feel free to invite us all over to GT to debate these points ... but please don't cloud this discussion with debate as I am seriously hoping to get some good answers to go back to my rabbi with. I do not agree with my rabbi on this issue as I stated in the OP. Unfortunately, he is very well versed in the UMJC and MJAA stance on gentiles and Torah. So, my questions were addressed really to other MJ's to help me address my rabbi in what I think are gross inconsistencies when one says that gentiles are not required to keep Torah.

You are correct, we need to get back on topic and help you here.

Bruce

[Charles YTK]

Is that a Messianic codeword for Gentile?

:D :D No, no! It is a teaching that he has. He talks about the song, Yankee Doodle went to town riding on a pony, stuck a feather in his hat and called it Macaroni. He asks what does sticking a feather in ones hat have to do with pasta? As the story goes on his wife discovers accidently that Macaroni was a stylish way of dressing, like today we might say "Clothes by Armoni" , "bags by Gucci",or something. As the story unfolds it turns out that during the American revolution the troops stopped at a farm house to get some food. And the lady saw the rag tag American troop who were about to face off with the finely attired British forces so she plucked a chicken and stuck feathers in their caps and called it Macaroni, a stylish uniform.

Now the same thing is true here. Most people sing the song about Yankee doodle and do not understand how the feather becomes Macaroni, and most people read the bible without understanding it in its Jewish Hebraic context, in which it was written. If you have studied the Torah and studied the Rabbinical ordinances you would understand a lot more about what the disciples and the Lord are saying, because it was written in a Jewish culture with Jewish idioms and to a largely Jewish audience. For example knowing the difference between the Torah, what God requires, and man made ordinance and Rabbinical traditions like hand washing, which were added to the law by men and which God does not require and which Yeshua himself said that through their traditons they make the law of God of no effect. That they teach as doctrine the comandments of men. Most Christains do not really study the bible in context to understand what is being said. They take instead the interpretation of other christian theologians and the Church fathers who also did not understand the differences.
Thing is , it does not have to be this way at all. The information is there for us all to learn if we are willing to do the work and risk finding out something that is quite a bit different that what we were told and have come to feel comfortable with. But what a blessing it is when those lights come on and the scriptures begin to make perfect sense and agree together.

Charles

[Bon]

Is that a Messianic codeword for Gentile?

ROLF :D

No! Please, you may be misunderstanding. We mean to show you no kind of disrespect.

No secret codes, handshakes, or anything of the sort here! :)

See Charles' explanation above.

Shalom to you.

Bon

[Servus Iesu]

Charles,

I have read a lot of Rabbinic commentary on the Torah, especially from www.torah.org (http://www.torah.org)

I often find it insightful and very interesting. Where the rubber leaves the road is when someone tries to say that Christians must follow works of the law to have grace and salvation.

I thank another gracious person on here for the invite to discuss things on GT but I must decline. It is my policy to avoid 'debating' anything there as it only leads to sin and one-up-manship.

[Bruce101]

Let's not forget the next verse....(verse 21)
(21) For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
Correct!
One thing that I would do is ask what the above verse is referring to, how does it tie in with the previous thoughts.

Bruce

[Charles YTK]

Charles, tell me more about Daniel Lancaster's teaching ... where can I find it on-line? I need to read and research as much as I can (of course, my rabbi looks at the Internet with great disdain ... then again, he's not very technologically savy ;)).

Again, I really love my rabbi, but I do think he is in error here, but it is hard being so new at all this to come to the table evenly.

What really gets me is today he was talking with us about the middle wall being down, and yet still makes a point that we are not obligated though allowed to keep Torah. When I brought up a question about eating pork if we are not under Torah, he sidestepped it very nicely and never did answer me. He is starting a series on Acts and thinks it will help us change our mind. ;) I told him that anything in Acts has to be weighed against Torah and the Tanach as a whole. I brought up how in Ruth, she is never considered a "convert" and is referred to as the Moabitess, yet it never mentions that she was under less of an "obligation" than the native Israelites around her. But again, that got side-stepped. *sigh*

www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org)

The two books you need is Fellow Heirs and The mystery of the Gospel. Tim Hegg and Daniel Lancaster. also The letter writer. The first two I listed address this issue of Gentile inclusion and leaves it completely undisputable that Gentiles and Jews are one people and share the blessings and the responsibilities equally. If you are not bleesed by these send me a PM and I will buy them from you so that you get your money back! There you go, a money back Guarantee. :D

[Bruce101]

Charles,

I have read a lot of Rabbinic commentary on the Torah, especially from www.torah.org (http://www.torah.org/)

I often find it insightful and very interesting. Where the rubber leaves the road is when someone tries to say that Christians must follow works of the law to have grace and salvation.

I thank another gracious person on here for the invite to discuss things on GT but I must decline. It is my policy to avoid 'debating' anything there as it only leads to sin and one-up-manship.

I would agree. I have also found that to be true. ( GT forum)
I also agree that our obeying Torah is not what gives us our salvation.

You did understand the macoroni principle, right.
A word may mean something different now than it did years ago, and so whole doctrines are mistakenly put into place by a misconception.
Macaroni used to mean "a dandy style of dressing" just like evil eye used to mean a person who was stingy.

Peace,
Bruce

[Bruce101]

www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org/)

The two books you need is Fellow Heirs and The mystery of the Gospel. Tim Hegg and Daniel Lancaster. also The letter writer. The first two I listed address this issue of Gentile inclusion and leaves it completely undisputable that Gentiles and Jews are one people and share the blessings and the responsibilities equally. If you are not bleesed by these send me a PM and I will buy them from you so that you get your money back! There you go, a money back Guarantee. :D

If you contact FFOZ and ask them to send you a magazine (they offer it for free, but I pay because I believe in the ministry) they will send the mag, and a CD that has the Macaroni Principle teaching in it. It is funny and eye opening.:thumbsup:

Bruce

[Charles YTK]

Where the rubber leaves the road is when someone tries to say that Christians must follow works of the law to have grace and salvation.


Well that OK and no one here is saying that your salvation is depenedent on keping the law. If it was then nobody but Yeshua is going to be in the Kingdom. We are all saved by faith, through God's grace extended toward us. Keeping the law is about learning to live righteously, in holiness. Look what Paul says here.:

II Tim 2:[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
To Paul "Scripture" is the Tankah, (Old Testament) as that was the only scrpture there were. And Tanakh is Torah plus writing about how Torah works in the lives of people. And these scriptures are where we test our doctrine and where we learn righteouness. Yes, learn, trained in Righteousness.

The word Righteous means: To be obedient to Divine law, to obey the commandments of God.

In other words, Sanctification is the outgrowth of living according to Gods instruction, which is the meaning of Torah by the way. Law is not totally correct. Torah means teaching or instruction in Hebrew. And that is where we learn how to live like sons. Unfortuneately Christain doctrine was designed by men to be the opposite of Torah in most places. This is a real problem that needs our most sincere attention.

Look at the word of Paul in Romans 8. He says that we must not be carnal, (living freely according to our fleshy desires) and that the spiritual man pleases God because his heart is subject to the law of God.

When we look at the revelation we find that the attributes of the overcomers, who the lord brings into the Kingdom is this, They keep the commandments of God and have the Testimony of Yeshua the Messiah.. They do both. They are not opposites Faith and obedience go hand in hand. One can not keep the law correctly unles they have faith. We are saved and then go on to obedeince. Rev 12:17 14:12

Look what John says:

I John 2:[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [5] But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. [6] He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. [7] Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.

[visionary]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Charles YTK again. Drats ... those words again.

[Charles YTK]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Charles YTK again. Drats ... those words again.

It's the thought that counts guys. Thanks anyway.

Charles