Can Christians be Racists?

[ctobola]

Over the years, I've periodically come across a tabloid called the Christian News, which proports to be a Christian -- and Lutheran -- publication.

This periodical "reveals" (concocts) conspiracies committed by those nasty dirty Jews. In particular, the publisher/editor stands firmly on the belief that the Holocaust during WWII was an elaborate hoax created by Jews.

It recently came to my attention that the editor/publisher is (or was recently) a pastor in one of the Lutheran denominiations.

Apparently this is appropriate behavior for pastors? What next, matching white hoods to wear with vestments?

-Cloy

[SPALATIN]

Over the years, I've periodically come across a tabloid called the Christian News, which proports to be a Christian -- and Lutheran -- publication.

This periodical "reveals" (concocts) conspiracies committed by those nasty dirty Jews. In particular, the publisher/editor stands firmly on the belief that the Holocaust during WWII was an elaborate hoax created by Jews.

It recently came to my attention that the editor/publisher is (or was recently) a pastor in one of the Lutheran denominiations.

Apparently this is appropriate behavior for pastors? What next, matching white hoods to wear with vestments?

-Cloy

Herman Otten, is the name and yes he is a Lutheran Pastor. Has somewhat been affiliated with the LCMS over the years, but to my knowledge is not a rostered Pastor in the synod at this time. The synod does not endorse all of his writing.

I believe that this would fall into history revisionism. From what I have read I do not believe he is a racist per se, but he does not agree with what many historians have written about World War II or the Holocaust. I would not be so quick to judge him until you have read his work thoroughly to understand his position. If you want to label him a true racist after that be my guest.

[KagomeShuko]

Is this something like can a square be a rectangle or can a rectangle be a square?

*get serious*

Well, Christians shouldn't be racists. . .BUT if we look at things realistically, how many proabably really ARE? We all become trapped in judging somebody at one point or another, don't we?

Is it a sad reality that some will always judge and be racist? Yes, it is. Does that mean that they aren't Christian? Not necessarily. . .

I'd not be happy with such things said, either. There's a whole movement about people who believe WWII was a hoax. I forget what it is called now but I discussed this back in high school with some people. It's really odd. . .and really sad. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ctobola]

Bridget,

You are correct -- I should have called this thread "Can Racism be Part of a Christian Theology?"

I have no doubt that our Lord can forgive the most egregious sin -- even murder and racism.

The problem I have is when that racism becomes mixed up with Christianity, as it does in the case of Herman Otten and the Christian News. As Christian people, I think we have a HUGE responsiblity to stand up and say, "We do not know you," when these wackos start to make noise.

The Ku Klux Klan hides behind the guise of Christianity, as do many other groups, including the "Christianity Identity Movement," a collection of crackpot organizations who believe that (white) Americans are the "chosen people" and that everybody else isn't -- especially the Jews. (Beliefs on this range from calling them "Satan's children" to simply dismissing them.)

Here is their reasoning... (stay with me, it gets pretty nutty)
America is, of course, the chosen people because the U.S. was founded by the lost tribes of Israel. They weren't really lost -- they just moved to the British Isles and became the Saxons (Saxons = "Isaac's Sons"). Using this and lots of other bizarre reasoning, these groups argue that as an "offspring" of England, the U.S. is entitled to all the blessings of God. (Not sure how that effects those of us from Norwegian and German ancestry.)

Otten's theory is based on the flimsy argument that because a handful of people who were in Germany during WWII didn't see anything that looked like the Holocaust, then it didn't occur. They believe that people like Dietrich Bonhoeffer were dupes of the Jews and he should have known better.

Of course, the whole thing starts with the notion that the Jew are master manipulators working on Satan's behalf to destory Christianity and America. If you buy that baloney, it's pretty easy to see goblins hiding behind every tree.

Among legitimate historians, this theory ranks right up there with the "earth is flat" and "the moon is made of green cheese"; but for Otten, this is a part of the "true" Christian faith... and apparently it's an acceptable belief within his faith community.

-c



Is this something like can a square be a rectangle or can a rectangle be a square?

*get serious*

Well, Christians shouldn't be racists. . .BUT if we look at things realistically, how many proabably really ARE? We all become trapped in judging somebody at one point or another, don't we?

Is it a sad reality that some will always judge and be racist? Yes, it is. Does that mean that they aren't Christian? Not necessarily. . .

I'd not be happy with such things said, either. There's a whole movement about people who believe WWII was a hoax. I forget what it is called now but I discussed this back in high school with some people. It's really odd. . .and really sad. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ctay]

Good points Bridget and C.. everyone shouldn't be but there are some out there but one thing for sure you can't put all pastors in the same boat. There are some good ones out there. My pastor for one, is one of those good ones.

[JADVirginia]

It recently came to my attention that the editor/publisher is (or was recently) a pastor in one of the Lutheran denominiations.

Apparently this is appropriate behavior for pastors? What next, matching white hoods to wear with vestments?

-Cloy

Let's be clear that anti-Semitism has nothing to do with theology, and in particular, it has nothing to do with Christians believing that all people, Jews, pagans, Buddists, etc. should look to Christ for salvation.

That said, anti-Semitism is not appropriate behavior for alleged Lutheran pastors:

"We recognize in anti-Semitism a contradiction and an affront to the Gospel, a violation of our hope and calling, and we pledge this church to oppose the deadly working of such bigotry, both within our own circles and in the society around us."

Declaration of the ELCA to the Jewish Community (1994).

While that is an ELCA statement, I cannot imagine any other Lutheran synod taking a contrary position. It would be utterly indefensible.

JADVirginia

[MORTANIUS]

Evil doesn't approach society under the guise of "evil". It will always assume what appears to be Good.

In this case, hatred is being taught through the banner of Lutheran teachings, but we all know that this is not Christian teaching.

These terrible things can only approach good people in the guise of what is Good, otherwise it would never come close.

This happens to many denominations, including us Lutherans. We must always stand guard against such things. These things do not serve the Church. This is how we know it is evil.

[guitarplayer_101]

I know this could be over simplifying things a little bit. But really it could be argued that it comes down this. This is how Christians should act in this regard:

"Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of the people, but thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself: I am the Lord." Leviticus 19:18(KJV)

[Jim47]

The plain and simple answer to that questions is "No"!

Although there are many man made reasons at our disposal to fuel hatred and disgust towards them for rejecting Jesus as God and as their Savior, why stop there? Shouldn't we then also bare this same hatred for those that now inhabit The Holy Land? for they too have denied Christ and in fact many believe it a service to God to kill Christians.

Hatred towards anyone is never good, hatred is but one of many of the Devils tools..

Several years ago I began an internet friendship with a Jewish man. He had been ordained as a Rabbi (Eastern Orthodox, which I believe is the strictest sect) Over the period of nearly a year this man and I exchanged views and beliefs of Christianity and the Jewish beliefs.

What is very sad is that there whole basis for rejecting Jesus as The Messiah is based on the fact that He did not set up the earthly empire that they were looking for. This just breaks my heart, I was never able to sway my friend and of couse I fear for his salvation, for we know that no one enters Heaven without Christ.
I have tried several times to renew the conversation with him but he just says he is too busy. :cry:

[xristos.anesti]

.

Several years ago I began an internet friendship with a Jewish man. He had been ordained as a Rabbi (Eastern Orthodox, which I believe is the strictest sect)

For your information only,

Eastern Orthodox are not Jewish Sect. ;)



Many years.

[Colabomb]

You are Confusing Orthodox Jews with Orthodox Christians.

[Jim47]

For your information only,

Eastern Orthodox are not Jewish Sect. ;)



Many years.

Thank you for the correction. :wave:

[xristos.anesti]

Thank you for the correction. :wave:

:wave:
Welcome.

[KagomeShuko]

Okay, racism can't be part of a Christian Theology. Interestingly, Sunday School this morning ended up being about Phillip and the Ethopian official (Acts 8:26-39). Even though I had prepared the lesson, I didn't realize it would go hand in hand with this thread. It talked about the traditions back in those days and that the Ethopian was probably the first African Christian and that tradition has that the strong African church of the first century could be traced back to that one convert.

So, why are people racist today? I, for one, don't understand it. . .but that's me.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ctobola]

..snip...
So, why are people racist today? I, for one, don't understand it. . .but that's me.
...snip...


Bridget,

That's a great question. I recently heard a social psychologist talk about this topic and he presented a thoughtful answer...

The problem of evil has long been an issue for people -- especially for people of faith -- who believe that there is a creator and/or purpose in life. At some point, most of us ask, "how can God allow bad things (sometimes random bad things like cancer) happen to (good) people?"

I can be difficult to embrace the idea of a loving redeemer after seeing a 2-year-old dying of a brain tumor. (Yeah, I buy all the original sin stuff... but try telling that to a father who is watching his child die and you're likely to get punched in the mouth -- even correct theological answers don't always make sense.)

Add to this all the wars and chaos in the world, and you get a fairly scary place to live. (Sociologists have also shown that people who watch more TV consider the world even more violent than it really is.)

If you aren't comfortably blaming it on God, the next best thing is to find a scapegoat. Since Jews have often seperated themselves from other cultures because of customs and dietary laws, they've been an easy mark. Over the years the hate literature about various groups has grown... so if you're looking for someone to blame for an imperfect world, it's pretty easy to find a book, brochure or person to provide easy, comfortable answers. Once you have a clear cause-and-effect answer for things -- even if it's based on hate and bigotry -- the world starts to make sense again.

This happens pretty readily among "normal" people too -- how many famous deaths can you name that didn't involve some sort of conspiracy theory? JFK, Bobby Kennedy, Marilyn Monroe, Jimmy Dean, Elvis, Princess Diana, Vince Foster, etc.

Most conspiracy theories are annoying but don't cause major damage; however, things like the McCarthyism of the 1950s can be remarkably destructive. Equally destructive is blaming the Goldbergs next door for the price or gasoline, or Luther Johnson down the street for the crack epidemic.

Far from being a "secret code book for the end times," I think the Book of Revelation is written largely to address this issue -- I see one of the key messages is this: even when things seem completely chaotic, our God is in control. Those who embrace conspiracy theories would do well to listen to that message.

In Christ, -Cloy

[Protoevangel]

You know, just about every time I start to think that I'm free of the sin that I see in someone else (including racism), I catch myself doing or thinking in ways that shows me that I am just as guilty as the person I despised.

[Jim47]

You know, just about every time I start to think that I'm free of the sin that I see in someone else (including racism), I catch myself doing or thinking in ways that shows me that I am just as guilty as the person I despised.


You have that problem too heh Dan? Life is a lesson in the humbling of the spirit. :blush:

[KagomeShuko]

You know, just about every time I start to think that I'm free of the sin that I see in someone else (including racism), I catch myself doing or thinking in ways that shows me that I am just as guilty as the person I despised.

Now, I didn't say this didn't happen. I just said I didn't understand racism. I'll be the first to admit I'm a sinner and I judge people way too quickly at times. I definitely don't think I'm better than anybody. Nope. . .I just don't understand racism. . .that's about it. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ctobola]

Dan,

You, me and the Apostle Paul ("I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." - Romans 7:15)... at least we're in good company, huh?

In Christ, -Cloy



You know, just about every time I start to think that I'm free of the sin that I see in someone else (including racism), I catch myself doing or thinking in ways that shows me that I am just as guilty as the person I despised.

[Protoevangel]

You have that problem too heh Dan? Life is a lesson in the humbling of the spirit. :blush:
:amen: my brother!

.

.

Now, I didn't say this didn't happen. I just said I didn't understand racism. I'll be the first to admit I'm a sinner and I judge people way too quickly at times. I definitely don't think I'm better than anybody. Nope. . .I just don't understand racism. . .that's about it. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget
I wasn't chastizing you. :hug: It was a confession and a reminder; food for thought.

.

.


Dan,

You, me and the Apostle Paul ("I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do." - Romans 7:15)... at least we're in good company, huh?

In Christ, -Cloy
Once again, :amen:

[C.F.W. Walther]

Rascism, No------Otten, Yes.

Not a good idea to judge Otten by out of text blurbs or quotes. Have any of you subscribed to his CN publication? Maybe you should someday. It's a hard job pointing out errors of histology and dogma. This man has writen vast tomes of info and shouldn't be taken on just a few excerpts. His statements are not racists but just stateing facts. Rascism can be a broad or narrow term only dictated by what our perception of it is OR what comes out as "politicaly correct". Politicaly correct is saying that if you don't like someone it is rascist.






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