Pride or sexual immorality

[colinlindsay]

What are the respective dangers to the individual and the church of the above?
Consider:
Which one did Jesus / Paul major on?
Which one is it easier to cover up / express in an different acceptable way.
How do you confront it?
What are the subtler temptations leading up to it?

[e=mv^2]

Pride is more insidious as it is much more widespread. Pride was the beginning of evil and was the source of all sin. It is a very easy snare to get caught in. I myself have to catch myself now and then having proud thoughts.

[colinlindsay]

< < Pride is more insidious as it is much more widespread > >

Thanks for replying.

Is this really true?

A senior friend said that charismatic people were more prone to sexual sin than the reformed (being generally flaky)

I replied well reformed people are more vulnerable to pride because they are generally already more together and therefore chose a systematic theology which will give a sense of prior achievement.

Interestingly, when this person was overlooked for the pulpit when we got a new pastor, he reacted in a frighteningly immature way.
It was like parading his superior Bible knowledge was what he needed to support his ego and receive respect.

[e=mv^2]

Of course I can not be sure - sin is sin and death is death. I guess in the end it all is equal. Do you think it is more difficult to be chaste or humble? I suppose that depends on who you are.

We do not get to choose what we are tempted with. I did not choose the temptation to lust after fast cars but I do. I did not choose to be tempted with greed but I am. I did not choose to be tempted with lust for women but I am.
Look at the arguments of homosexuals (NOT A DEBATE ON HOMOSEXUALITY LETS NOT GET IN TROUBLE - JUST TALKING ABOUT THE ARGUMENTS HERE). They say that they did not choose that lifestyle - I believe them. I do not think they made a choice to be tempted with homosexuality - but they are.

We do not get to choose our battles in the game of sin. We can only fight the ones that we find ourselves in.

[holo]

To be perfectly honest, I'm proud of being humble. I know, it doesn't add up. Thank you Lord for being merciful.

[Uphill Battle]

Pride cometh before a fall, right? you ask which is worse... but I would say that you cannot fall to sexual immorality without pride. It's the human pride that says "i'll do it my way." This includes any sin where we violate God's commands... pride. Egocentrism at it's worst.

[colinlindsay]

< < but I would say that you cannot fall to sexual immorality without pride. > >

Maybe but there are some people who are just crippled through sexual addictions. This is maybe baggage inherited from genes or the previous life as an unbeliever.
Pride also can be manifested becuase of its opposite, inferiority complex incurred through bad parenting. I've seen so much of this in leaders' meetings. The need to win an argument. And preaching more than ANY other ministry appeals to the man with that inferiority complex - the need for human approbation and to influence other people's lives. I've seen it.

[e=mv^2]

Maybe but there are some people who are just crippled through sexual addictions. This is maybe baggage inherited from genes or the previous life as an unbeliever.
Previous life? Huh?

[colinlindsay]

Yes, previous life as an unbeliever.

True for me.

I've been born-again.

Haven't you?

[e=mv^2]

Ah.. I thought you were talking about reincarnation.

There is definately baggage left over from past relationships - that is quite possibly one of the many reasons God has for wanting sex to be exclusively in a marriage. I agree with you on that.

[mark kennedy]

What are the respective dangers to the individual and the church of the above?

Jesus made it clear that it is the secret sin that is the most dangerous. Pride can cut both ways, Paul in speaking to the believers in Rome said (I don't have the exact quote handy) we are boasting of you and I hope you are boasting of us. The point being that there is more then one kind of pride.

As far a sexual immorality I think there is a core issue that gives rise to sexual immorality and the kind of inordinate pride you seem concerned with. It's called evil concupicence (in the old KJV) and its an unrestrainded lust or desire.

Consider:
Which one did Jesus / Paul major on?

Jesus talked about sexual immorality describing looking lustfully as being the same as adultry. Think about it guys, how many times have you done this as compared to how many times you have been with someone elses wife. I have a point so bear with me, the New Testament puts a lot of emphasis on the passion the fuels both righteousness and sin. Paul and Jesus are in agreement on this one but Jesus puts a lot of emphasis on secret sin that Paul does not seem to have any real insights on. The reason is pretty obvious to me, Paul didn't know as much about secret motives as the Son of God.

Which one is it easier to cover up / express in an different acceptable way.

Thats easy, pride can mask itself easier but sin always wants to be exposed, its the nature of the beast.

How do you confront it?

If you are going to confront sin the key word is carefull. Its dangerous in your life and the biggest concern should be what it could influence you to compromise.

What are the subtler temptations leading up to it?

A simple boast can be a subtle temptation to pride and a suggestive look can lead to sexually impure thoughts.

[novcncy]

Pride cometh before a fall, right? you ask which is worse... but I would say that you cannot fall to sexual immorality without pride. It's the human pride that says "i'll do it my way." This includes any sin where we violate God's commands... pride. Egocentrism at it's worst.

I agree with this. Sexual immorality, whether it's lusting after a woman walking by you, or a physical act, is driven by selfishness, the fulfilling of one's desire. The ability to disregard the conviction of the Holy Spirit, deny our conscience, and cause destruction in our homes, all of this stems from the decision to put self in front of all else, and isn't that pride?

Does anyone have any thoughts on the applicability of Paul's declaration in 1 Corinthians 16:18 "Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body."

Isn't it interesting that this sin specifically destroys the body it is intended to please?

[novcncy]

A simple boast can be a subtle temptation to pride and a suggestive look can lead to sexually impure thoughts.

I think this an important observation. Satan doesn't start his attacks by suggesting that a man visit a prostitute or have a mistress, or some such blatant thing. It begins maybe by something as subtle as choosing to watching the girls in a beer commercial instead of turning the channel. This process may start as soon as a person begins to realize a sexual identity. It also plays on our nature, and so it is an inherent "weakness" if being a human being. Then the temptation gradually progresses, typically, and the end hardly resembles the beginning.

This is especially true in regards to the argument brought up regarding homosexuality. I too, believe that no one chooses to be gay. However, the lifetime of choosing to please self can bring someone to the point where they are a slave to pleasing themselves, and can do nothing else but that. The sensuousness of homosexuality, the focus on pleasure, is the natural consequence of these choices. If the end, it wasn't one choice to be gay, it was a lifetime of serving self that led to it. But this too, is a result of pride, of saying that it's okay to do things MY way instead of God's. (I too am not trying to stir or create any argument here. It's simply my observation.)

One thing that has been impressed on me lately is the holiness of God. God also expects us to be holy, once we are saved. The thing about being holy, and good, is that they are absolute things. Someone isn't mostly holy, or pretty good. One is either completely holy, or completely unholy. So perhaps these small subtle things you alluded to, the real problem is that they cause us to become unholy, and thereby, let sin get its foot in the door.

[colinlindsay]

It's interesting from this thread how much easier it is to talk about sexual immorality.
I posit that this is becuase firstly we are all aware of this temptation much of the time and secondly the types of pride around are more subtle.

My starting point is this - we have been dethroned from the centre of our universe once we accept Christ. Christ is most important and we share secondary priorities with our neighbours. The NT refers to this as "preferring others to yourself", "giving greater honour to the weaker and less seemly member", and generally seeking the place of a servant.

We have adopted all manner of ruses by which we can affirm our servanthood and yet continue to make ourself the most important person in our universe.

Examples:
I have a ministry (usually preaching but never sweeping the floor or putting up with a garrulous talkative person) and it should be recognised otherwise I'll take it elsewhere.
Why have I got to wait 3 months in the congregation before I can go to housegroup / be in the worship band / lead prayers etc?
I only function on the intellectual not the emotional so I have to be able to preach (Yes, I've heard this)
I'm not a pastoral person so don't expect me to phone people up if they have problems. They should just come and hear the Word.
I'll give this church 2 months and if it isn't sound enough I'll go somewhere else.
I have a right to go to housegroup because the Lord always gives me something they need to hear.
The buck stops with me and I have an obligation to present a church to the Lord, so I can't risk sharing ministry / leadership / the pulpit. Besides people don't have problems, they ARE problems.
The most important thing is truth, there are false prophets out there, discernment is what matters, so all member ministry will have to wait.
I have only one burden from God and that's to dot the I's and cross the t's of His word.
(I've heard this!)
I don't meet regularly with you because I my heart is with the Jews / really understanding His word / healing / gifts of the spirit so my real fellowship is elsewhere.

All of these things happen without the offender having the slightest idea that it is going on. When was the last time anybody apologised to someone in the church for being overbearing and lacking in humility.
Even on these message boards you see the need to "have the last word".

[novcncy]

I like your post, Colin, thanks for putting it up. I was browsing through the formal debate section, and there was a discussion regarding man's sin nature that was pretty interesting. Basically, I'm thinking that ANY sin is based in pride. When we sin, what we're saying is that we know better than God, and so we're doing it our own way. This is the same type of philosophy that led to Satan's fall, Adam and Eve's fall, and our very own sins. Anyway, I'm not trying to have the last word, ;), I'm just agreeing with you.