Hymns

[SPALATIN]

Before I go any further I want to establish one rule of thumb on this thread. This is not to discuss songs in the Contemporary Praise and Worship trend. This is only to discuss Hymns and why they are good hymns or bad. I invite dissent here but you must prove your grounds using scripture first and then reason.

Some of my favorites

Salvation unto us has come
I come o Savior to thy table
Just as I am; without one plea
How Great thou Art.

Anything by J.S. Bach

please share your favorites as well. Again no CCM to be discussed here whatsoever.

[ByzantineDixie]

Just so I understand the rules...what constitutes "hymns" or conversely what constitutes "CCM". Methinks my favorites are neither in Lutheran hymnals (although they are in some Catholic hymnals) but I don't know if they are CCM.

[ByzantineDixie]

OK, I'll play by the obvious rules...I like "Savior, Again to Thy Dear Name We Raise" because it is a song of community. It is a closing hymn. The people of God have just worshipped together and have received the Gifts from the Lord in the shelter of His house and they are all about to leave that shelter and reenter the world. The hymn is the community of believers petioning their sweet Savior for His care. Quite honestly...I can't make it through the hymn without crying.

1. Savior, again to Thy dear name we raise
With one accord our parting hymn of praise.
Once more we bless Thee ere our worship cease,
Then, lowly bending, wait Thy word of peace.

2. Grant us Thy peace upon our homeward way;
With Thee began, with Thee shall end, the day;
Guard Thou the lips from sin, the hearts from shame,
That in this house have called upon Thy name.

3. Grant us Thy peace, Lord, through the coming night;
Turn Thou for us its darkness into light.
From harm and danger keep Thy children free,
For dark and light are both alike to Thee.

4. Grant us Thy peace throughout our earthly life,
Our balm in sorrow and our stay in strife;
Then, when Thy voice shall bid our conflict cease,
Call us, O Lord, to Thine eternal peace.

[SPALATIN]

Just so I understand the rules...what constitutes "hymns" or conversely what constitutes "CCM".

Was that a question Rose? I wasn't sure without the "?" at the end.

[ByzantineDixie]

Oh, gee...if you are going to rely on me using proper punctuation then we'll have to stop communicating now. Spelling, too. Neither a strength of mine. :help:

Yes...it would be good to define what is a hymn and what is CCM.

Oh...another favorite hymn of mine is Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent.
And there is one more that would obviously fit in the rules but I doing some background work to make sure it is Lutheran enough before I post it. :eek:

[ByzantineDixie]

OK...whew...I found it in LBW. The Sabat Mater (At the Cross Her Station Keeping).

[SPALATIN]

Oh, gee...if you are going to rely on me using proper punctuation then we'll have to stop communicating now. Spelling, too. Neither a strength of mine. :help:

Yes...it would be good to define what is a hymn and what is CCM.

Oh...another favorite hymn of mine is Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silent.
And there is one more that would obviously fit in the rules but I doing some background work to make sure it is Lutheran enough before I post it. :eek:

Contemporary Christian Praise and worship uses inane verses that have no context to what Christ has done for us. A hymn is anything that is in the hymnbooks like LW or TLH.

[Melethiel]

I like:

Aus tiefer not
Christ lag in todebanden (sorry, I'm better at remembering the tune :P )
Let all mortal flesh keep silence

Pretty much anything by Luther.

[ByzantineDixie]

Contemporary Christian Praise and worship uses inane verses that have no context to what Christ has done for us. A hymn is anything that is in the hymnbooks like LW or TLH.

That's what I was afraid of...so then my favorites are not part of the mix. No problem though. I was able to find a few hymns so that I could participate! :P

[Music4Hym777]

Lets see what I have on my phone as ringers.....

Holy, Holy, Holy (A Great one, been a long time since I have heard it)
A Mighty Fortress (Now with this song, it has to be the traditional organ churchy version for it to be really a great hymn, not the boy band version)
Crown Him With Many Crowns
Were You There? (This has to be the Lutheran version, the Southern Baptist version is just not the same)

[Protoevangel]

OK...whew...I found it in LBW. The Sabat Mater (At the Cross Her Station Keeping).
Is this the one?

AT the cross her station keeping,
Stood the mournful Mother weeping,
Close to Jesus to the last.

Through her heart, His sorrow sharing,
All His bitter anguish bearing,
Now at length the sword had passed.

Oh, how sad and sore distressed
Was that Mother highly blessed
Of the sole-begotten One!

Christ above in torment hangs,
She beneath beholds the pangs
Of her dying, glorious Son.

Is there one who would not weep
Whelmed in miseries so deep
Christ's dear Mother to behold?

Can the human heart refrain
From partaking in her pain,
In that Mother's pain untold?

Bruised, derided, cursed, defiled,
She beheld her tender Child,
All with bloody scourges rent,

For the sins of His own nation
Saw Him hang in desolation
Till His spirit forth He sent.

O thou Mother, fount of love,
Touch my spirit from above.
Make my heart with thine accord:

Make me feel as thou hast felt:
Make my soul to glow and melt
With the love of Christ, my Lord.


Holy Mother pierce - me through.
In my heart each wound renew
Of my Savior crucified.

Let me share with thee His pain,
Who for all our sins was slain,
Who for me in torments died.

Let me mingle tears with thee.
Mourning Him Who mourned for me,
All the days that I may live.

By the cross with thee to stay,
There with thee to weep and pray,
Is all I ask of thee to give.

Virgin of all virgins best
Listen to my fond request:
Let me share thy grief divine;

Let me, to my latest breath,
In my body hear the death
Of that dying Son of thine.

Wounded with His every wound,
Steep my soul till it hath swooned
In His very blood away;

Be to me, O Virgin, nigh,
Lest in flames I burn and die,
In His awful judgment day.

Christ, when Thou shalt call me hence,
Be Thy Mother my defense,
Be Thy cross my victory;

While my body here decays
May my soul Thy goodness praise,
Safe in paradise with Thee.
Amen.

[ByzantineDixie]

Is this the one?

This would be the hymn (its been around since the 13th century) but I don't think these are the Lutheran lyrics? Anyway it's LBW 110...perhaps someone could check that out if they have access to an LBW.

[Melethiel]

You're right, the LBW lyrics are different:

At the cross her station keeping
Stood the mournful mother weeping
Close to Jesus to the last.

Through her heart his sorrow sharing
All his bitter anguish bearing
Now at length the sword has passed

Oh how sad and sore distressed
Was that mother highly blessed
Of the sole begotten one!

Oh the depth of her affliction
As she saw the crucifixion
Of her dying glorious Son!

Who on Christ's dear mother gazing
Pierced by anguish so amazing
Born of woman would not weep?

Who on Christ's dear mother thinking
Such a cup of sorrow drinking
Would not share her sorrows deep?

For his people's sin chastised
She beheld her Son despised
Scourged and crowned with thorns entwined;

Saw him then from judgment taken
And in death by all forsaken
Till his spirit he resigned.

Jesus, may her deep devotion
Stir in me the same emotion
Source of love, redeemer true.

Let me this fresh ardor gaining
And a purer love attaining
Consecrate my life to you.

[ByzantineDixie]

Ooohhh! Nice job, Melethiel! Many thanks!

(Hey, have you heard this CD (http://www.saintromanosrecords.com/product_info.php/cPath/35/products_id/103)yet? Being Ukrainian and actually understanding the language, you may really enjoy it. I think it is incredibly beautiful...just wish I could understand what they heck they are singing! :eek: )

[Melethiel]

Hmm...that looks interesting. I'll check it out. :)

[filosofer]

OK, I'll play by the obvious rules...I like "Savior, Again to Thy Dear Name We Raise" because it is a song of community. It is a closing hymn. The people of God have just worshipped together and have received the Gifts from the Lord in the shelter of His house and they are all about to leave that shelter and reenter the world. The hymn is the community of believers petioning their sweet Savior for His care. Quite honestly...I can't make it through the hymn without crying.

1. Savior, again to Thy dear name we raise
With one accord our parting hymn of praise.
Once more we bless Thee ere our worship cease,
Then, lowly bending, wait Thy word of peace.

2. Grant us Thy peace upon our homeward way;
With Thee began, with Thee shall end, the day;
Guard Thou the lips from sin, the hearts from shame,
That in this house have called upon Thy name.

3. Grant us Thy peace, Lord, through the coming night;
Turn Thou for us its darkness into light.
From harm and danger keep Thy children free,
For dark and light are both alike to Thee.

4. Grant us Thy peace throughout our earthly life,
Our balm in sorrow and our stay in strife;
Then, when Thy voice shall bid our conflict cease,
Call us, O Lord, to Thine eternal peace.

I agree, Rose [mark this day in your calendar!]. This is an excellent hymn - one of my top ten.

Here are a few more:

"For All the Saints" (LW 191)
"Built on the Rock the Church Doth Stand" (TLH 467) - right near the top!

"Built on the Rock the Church doth Stand"
by Nicolai F.S. Grundtvig, 1783-1872
Translated by Carl Doving, 1867-1937
1. Built on the Rock the Church doth stand,
Even when steeples are falling;
Crumbled have spires in every land,
Bells still are chiming and calling,
Calling the young and old to rest,
But above all the soul distrest,
Longing for rest everlasting.

2. Surely in temples made with hands,
God, the Most High, is not dwelling;
High above earth His temple stands,
All earthly temples excelling.
Yet He whom heavens cannot contain
Chose to abide on earth with men,
Built in our bodies His temple.

3. We are God's house of living stones,
Builded for His habitation;
He through baptismal grace us owns
Heirs of His wondrous salvation.
Were we but two His name to tell,
Yet He would deign with us to dwell,
With all His grace and His favor.

4. Now we may gather with our King
E'en in the lowliest dwelling;
Praises to Him we there may bring,
His wondrous mercy forthtelling.
Jesus His grace to us accords;
Spirit and life are all His words;
His truth doth hallow the temple.

5. Still we our earthly temples rear
That we may herald His praises;
They are the homes where He draws near
And little children embraces.
Beautiful things in them are said;
God there with us His covenant made,
Making us heirs of His kingdom.

6. Here stands the font before our eyes
Telling how God did receive us;
The altar recalls Christ's sacrifice
And what His table doth give us;
Here sounds the Word that doth proclaim
Christ yesterday, today, the same,
Yea, and for aye our Redeemer.

7. Grant then, O God, where'er men roam,
That, when the church-bells are ringing,
Many in saving faith may come
Where Christ His message is bringing:
"I know Mine own, Mine own know Me;
Ye, not the world, My face shall see.
My peace I leave with you." Amen.

Hymn #467
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Eph. 2: 19-22
Author: Nicolai F.S. Grundtvig, 1837
Translated by: Carl Doving, 1909, alt.
Titled: "Kirken den er et gammelt Hus"
Composer: Ludvig M. Lindeman, 1871
Tune: "Kirken den er et"

The melody is riveting and so appropriate to the words. Solid, hopeful, yet aware of the reality of the present world's condition.

[theologia crucis]

Salvation unto us has come

A man after my own heart!

Wait, that sounds REAL bad! ;)

I won't bore y'all and post the lyrics again.

Though some think that it is the best doctrinal hymn ever written...

Of course, I love The Church's One Foundation, Thy Strong Word, Stricken, Smitten and Afflicted, Eternal Father, Strong to Save, etc... I could go on for paragraphs...

[filosofer]

Of course, I love The Church's One Foundation, Thy Strong Word, etc... I could go on for paragraphs...

Obviously you haven't followed Mark Preus's attack on TSW over on LQ, have you?

While his exhortation to examine the words of every hymn/song we use in worship is healthy, I still find that Thy Strong Word is a suitable hymn for worship. :)

[theologia crucis]

Obviously you haven't followed Mark Preus's attack on TSW over on LQ, have you?

While his exhortation to examine the words of every hymn/song we use in worship is healthy, I still find that Thy Strong Word is a suitable hymn for worship. :)


Nope, I am oblivious to LQ! I'm not sure I even like the name! If it were Christ Quest, I might be more interested...

[theo opens a large can of nice, healthy earthworms...]

Anyway, back on topic:

Generally, my favorite hymns are those in the "justification" section of the hymnals. However, I love many advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter, Baptism, Holy Communion, Pentecost, etc. hymns as well.

One great one is:

"By Grace I'm Saved, Grace Free and Boundless"
by Christian L. Scheidt, 1709-1761

1. By grace I'm saved, grace free and boundless;
My soul, believe and doubt it not.
Why stagger at this word of promise?
Hath Scripture ever falsehood taught?
Nay; then this word must true remain;
By grace thou, too, shalt heav'n obtain.

2. By grace! None dare lay claim to merit;
Our works and conduct have no worth.
God in His love sent our Redeemer,
Christ Jesus, to this sinful earth;
His death did for our sins atone,
And we are saved by grace alone.

3. By grace! Oh, mark this word of promise
When thou art by thy sins opprest,
When Satan plagues thy troubled conscience,
And when thy heart is seeking rest.
What reason cannot comprehend
God by His grace to thee doth send.

4. By grace God's Son, our only Savior,
Came down to earth to bear our sin.
Was it because of thine own merit
That Jesus died thy soul to win?
Nay, it was grace, and grace alone,
That brought Him from His heavenly throne.

5. By grace! This ground of faith is certain;
So long as God is true, it stands.
What saints have penned by inspiration,
What in His Word our God commands,
What our whole faith must rest upon,
Is Grace alone, grace in His Son.

6. By grace to timid hearts that tremble,
In tribulation's furnace tried,--
By grace, despite all fear and trouble,
The Father's heart is open wide.
Where could I help and strength secure
If grace were not my anchor sure?

7. By grace! On this this I'll rest when dying;
In Jesus' promise, I rejoice;
For though I know my heart's condition,
I also know my Savior's voice.
My heart is glad, all grief has flown,
Since I am saved by grace alone.

Hymn #373
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Ephesians 2:8, 9
Author: Christian L. Scheidt, 1742, cento
Titled: "Aus Gnaden soll ich selig werden"
Composer: Kornelius H. Dretzel, 1731
Tune: "O dass ich tausend"

Verse 7 added by me (not on www.lutheran-hymnal.com), but it's in TLH.

In short, it's a great hymn on the sola gratia we Christians hold so dear.

[theologia crucis]

Another goodie (vicarious atonement):

"Jesus, Thy Blood and Righteousness"
by Ludwig von Zinzendorf, 1700-1760
Translated by John Wesley, 1703-1791

1. Jesus, Thy blood and righteousness
My beauty are, my glorious dress;
Midst flaming worlds, in these arrayed,
With joy shall I lift up my head.

2. Bold shall I stand in that great Day,
For who aught to my charge shall lay?
Fully through these absolved I am
From sin and fear, from guilt and shame.

3. The holy, meek, unspotted Lamb,
Who from the Father's bosom came,
Who died for me, e'en me t'atone,
Now for my Lord and God I own.

4. Lord, I believe Thy precious blood,
Which at the mercy-seat of God
Forever doth for sinners plead,
For me--e'en for my soul--was shed.

5. Lord, I believe were sinners more
Than sands upon the ocean shore,
Thou hast for all a ransom paid,
For all a full atonement made.

6. When from the dust of death I rise
To claim my mansion in the skies,
E'en then, this shall be all my plea:
Jesus hath lived and died for me.

7. Jesus, be endless praise to Thee,
Whose boundless mercy hath for me,
For me, and all Thy hands have made,
An everlasting ransom paid.

Hymn #371
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: 1 John 1:7
Author: Ludwig von Zinzendorf, 1739, cento
Translated by: John Wesley, 1740
Titled: "Christi Blut und Gerechtigkeit"
Composer: George J. Elvey, 1862
Tune: "St. Crispin"

[ByzantineDixie]

I agree, Rose [mark this day in your calendar!]. This is an excellent hymn - one of my top ten.

Here are a few more:

"For All the Saints" (LW 191)


OH my goodness....this is a very scary day. You'll never believe this...but For All the Saints is in my top ten! So we agree a second time! I think I'll quit posting for the night because if we agree a third time...who knows what kind of cataclysmic event that will trigger. ;)

[theologia crucis]

Another goodie (I finally got to sing it a few weeks ago, and I fell in love with it; original sin, First & Second Adam, vicarious atonement, etc.):

"All Mankind Fell in Adam's Fall"
by Lazarus Spengler
Translated by Matthias Loy, 1828-1915

1. All mankind fell in Adam's fall,
One common sin infects them all;
From sire to son the bane descends,
And over all the curse impends.

2. Through all man's powers corruption creeps
And him in dreadful bondage keeps;
In guilt he draws his infant breath
And reaps its fruits of woe and death.

3. From hearts depraved, to evil prone,
Flow thoughts and deeds of sin alone;
God's image lost, the darkened soul
Nor seeks nor finds its heavenly goal.

4. But Christ, the second Adam, came
To bear our sin and woe and shame,
To be our Life, our Light, our Way,
Our only Hope, our only Stay.

5. As by one man all mankind fell
And, born in sin, was doomed to hell,
So by one Man, who took our place,
We all received the gift of grace.

6. We thank Thee, Christ; new life is ours,
New light, new hope, new strength, new powers:
May grace our every way attend
Until we reach our journey's end!

Hymn #369
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Rom. 3: 12
Author: Lazarus Spengler, 1524, cento
Translated by: Matthias Loy, 1880, alt.
Titled: "Durch Adams Fall ist ganz verderbt"
Tune: "Wenn wir in hoechsten Noeten"
1st Published in: "Genevan Psalter", 1547

[theologia crucis]

Lastly (for the moment, 'cause I'm sure y'all are tired of me; I like it for the melody, but it also shows the hope of the Resurrection):

"Wake, Awake, for Night is Flying"
by Philipp Nicolai, 1556-1608
Translated by Catherine Winkworth, 1829-1878

1. "Wake, awake, for night is flying,"
The watchmen on the heights are crying;
"Awake, Jerusalem, arise!"
Midnight hears the welcome voices
And at the thrilling cry rejoices:
"Oh, where are ye, ye virgins wise?
The Bridegroom comes, awake!
Your lamps with gladness take!
Hallelujah!
With bridal care Yourselves prepare
To meet the Bridegroom, who is near."

2. Zion hears the watchmen singing,
And all her heart with joy is springing,
She wakes, she rises from her gloom;
For her Lord comes down all-glorious,
The strong in grace, in truth victorious,
Her Star is ris'n, her Light is come.
"Now come, Thou Blessed One,
Lord Jesus, God's own Son,
Hail! Hosanna!
The joyful call We answer all
And follow to the nuptial hall."

3. Now let all the heav'ns adore Thee,
Let men and angels sing before Thee,
With harp and cymbal's clearest tone.
Of one pearl each shining portal,
Where, dwelling with the choir immortal,
We gather round Thy radiant throne.
No vision ever brought,
No ear hath ever caught,
Such great glory;
Therefore will we Eternally
Sing hymns of praise and joy to Thee.

Hymn #609
The Lutheran Hymnal
Text: Matthew 25: 1-13
Author: Philipp Nicolai, 1599
Translated by: Catherine Winkworth, 1863, alt.
Titled: "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme"
Composer: Philipp Nicolai, 1599
Tune: "Wachet auf"

[KagomeShuko]

I have way too many "favorite hymns."

We were asked to list our favorite hymns in church awhile ago for a hymn sing service (next Sunday). I ended up choosing two which were as follows:

Lift High the Cross
I Was There To Hear Your Borning Cry

Listing off even more "favorites"
Holy, Holy, Holy
Thy Strong Word (and darn you guys who listed this. . turn on your rep!)
Come Thou Fount of Every Blessing
Blessed Assurance
All Glory, Laud, and Honor
Onward Christian Soldiers
The Church's One Foundation
Crown Him With Many Crowns
When In Our Music, God Is Glorified
God of Grace and God of Glory
Oh Sacred Head Now Wounded
Were You There
Be Thou My Vision
How Firm a Foundation
Now the Green Blade Rises
. . .and so many more.

{If I know a hymn and somebody is playing it, it's likely I'll get really excited, *squee* and sing it. . .yeah, I do get excited over hymns. . .constantly.}

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Melethiel]

Lastly (for the moment, 'cause I'm sure y'all are tired of me; I like it for the melody, but it also shows the hope of the Resurrection):
Ha...if only you could see what my organ class did to that tune...(I was studying Bach's arrangement at the time.)

[Protoevangel]

I have gone to the "contemporary" service for five years, and only in the past month or so have I convinced my family to attend the "earlier" service.

I have not really had the time to really gain an affinity for too many traditional hymns. I have gone to the traditional service a few times, though, and there are a few I especially like: (they have all been mentioned before)

A Mighty Fortress (well, duh!)
Just as I am; without one plea (did this one last week, love it!)
Holy, Holy, Holy (have even done this one in the "contemporary" service)
How Great thou Art (again, have even done this one in the "contemporary" service)

[SPALATIN]

A man after my own heart!

Wait, that sounds REAL bad! ;)

I won't bore y'all and post the lyrics again.

Though some think that it is the best doctrinal hymn ever written...

Of course, I love The Church's One Foundation, Thy Strong Word, Stricken, Smitten and Afflicted, Eternal Father, Strong to Save, etc... I could go on for paragraphs...

Over on LQ, Mark Preus had a whole thread dedicated to showing how "Thy Strong Word" is not as great a hymn as everyone thinks and I am buying into his evidence. He used "Salvation unto us has come" as a far superior to "Thy Strong Word"

If you get a chance go there and read the posts. You might even understand his reasons and agree with some of them.

[theologia crucis]

Over on LQ, Mark Preus had a whole thread dedicated to showing how "Thy Strong Word" is not as great a hymn as everyone thinks and I am buying into his evidence. He used "Salvation unto us has come" as a far superior to "Thy Strong Word"

If you get a chance go there and read the posts. You might even understand his reasons and agree with some of them.

To your chagrin, I don't like the tone of what I've seen from LQ, so I don't intend to go over there tonight (plus, it's late!) so I will guess that Preus' argument is that it is as not theologically thorough or explicit as Es ist das heil, and I would buy into that readily. No argument from me.

Is TSW as catechetical as SUUHC? By no means.

However, TSW is a very good hymn for Christians. It's speaks (sings) the Truth, and for that, I will not fault it.

They are different hymns. Rereading the lyrics, TSW is a hymn of praise and wonder:

Verse 1: When God spoke, the earth was created. When God commanded light, it was done. Clearly Biblical/Lutheran.

Verse 2: Since the Fall, we dwell in darkness. Only by God's Word (verbal or visual, i.e, the Sacraments), do we see The Light. Original sin and the sola gratia. Very Christian/Lutheran.

Verse 3: Through the Word, God gives us His righteousness, and we are truly holy because of this, and will be as we press on to the Resurrection. Article III of the Formula of Concord. Clearly very Lutheran.

Verse 4: God's wisdom shows through the Cross. See Luther's Heidelburg Disputation. From the cross, from Christ shines salvation for all, and that destroys death. Again, quite Lutheran.

Verse 5: How can we keep this great news to ourselves?! We should proclaim this great news to all! Quite evangelical (the good kind, the Lutheran kind!).

Verse 6: Closes with the Trinity. "Light creator": the Father. "Light of Light": the Son (sounds quite creedal to me!!!). "light-revealer": the Holy Spirit (only through the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son revealed to us; quite Scriptural).

Analyzing SUUHC, it's a different beast. It's a very systematically theological hymn (one of the reasons it's my absolute favorite hymn in all of Christendom, if you can't tell!!!).

Verse 1: Proper distinction between faith and works, Law & Gospel.

Verse 2: Original sin.

Verse 3: The first use of the Law.

Verse 4: Original sin again.

Verse 5: The vicarious atonement.

Verse 6: More atonement.

Verse 7: Justification through faith alone and Holy Baptism.

Verse 8: Law & Gospel.

Verse 9: The distinction between justification and sanctification.

Verse 10: The Holy Trinity, praise and thanksgiving.

I wish I had a translation of the other four verses...

I would say that comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Again, I can see an argument that SUUHC could be considered doctrinally a better hymn if you look at it at face value, and it is clearly more catechetical.

But, TSW has much of the same doctrinal content implicitely stated, if you have the proper Lutheran understanding of the lyrics. I would argue that TSW is very similar to Holy, Holy, Holy. Actually, I'd say it's better doctrinally.

In short, TSW is more a hymn of praise, and SUUHC is more a hymn of the day. What's better, an advent hymn or a Christmas hymn or an easter hymn or a baptism hymn or a morning hymn or an evening hymn or a chant or a Trinity hymn...??? They each have their own purpose.

Both are great hymns with great tunes, and I hope the church goes on singing both until the judgement day!

I hope that made some sense, I'm tired...

[SPALATIN]

To your chagrin, I don't like the tone of what I've seen from LQ, so I don't intend to go over there tonight (plus, it's late!) so I will guess that Preus' argument is that it is as not theologically thorough or explicit as Es ist das heil, and I would buy into that readily. No argument from me.

Is TSW as catechetical as SUUHC? By no means.

However, TSW is a very good hymn for Christians. It's speaks (sings) the Truth, and for that, I will not fault it.

They are different hymns. Rereading the lyrics, TSW is a hymn of praise and wonder:

Verse 1: When God spoke, the earth was created. When God commanded light, it was done. Clearly Biblical/Lutheran.

Verse 2: Since the Fall, we dwell in darkness. Only by God's Word (verbal or visual, i.e, the Sacraments), do we see The Light. Original sin and the sola gratia. Very Christian/Lutheran.

Verse 3: Through the Word, God gives us His righteousness, and we are truly holy because of this, and will be as we press on to the Resurrection. Article III of the Formula of Concord. Clearly very Lutheran.

Verse 4: God's wisdom shows through the Cross. See Luther's Heidelburg Disputation. From the cross, from Christ shines salvation for all, and that destroys death. Again, quite Lutheran.

Verse 5: How can we keep this great news to ourselves?! We should proclaim this great news to all! Quite evangelical (the good kind, the Lutheran kind!).

Verse 6: Closes with the Trinity. "Light creator": the Father. "Light of Light": the Son (sounds quite creedal to me!!!). "light-revealer": the Holy Spirit (only through the Holy Spirit is the Father and Son revealed to us; quite Scriptural).

Analyzing SUUHC, it's a different beast. It's a very systematically theological hymn (one of the reasons it's my absolute favorite hymn in all of Christendom, if you can't tell!!!).

Verse 1: Proper distinction between faith and works, Law & Gospel.

Verse 2: Original sin.

Verse 3: The first use of the Law.

Verse 4: Original sin again.

Verse 5: The vicarious atonement.

Verse 6: More atonement.

Verse 7: Justification through faith alone and Holy Baptism.

Verse 8: Law & Gospel.

Verse 9: The distinction between justification and sanctification.

Verse 10: The Holy Trinity, praise and thanksgiving.

I wish I had a translation of the other four verses...

I would say that comparing the two is like comparing apples and oranges. Again, I can see an argument that SUUHC could be considered doctrinally a better hymn if you look at it at face value, and it is clearly more catechetical.

But, TSW has much of the same doctrinal content implicitely stated, if you have the proper Lutheran understanding of the lyrics. I would argue that TSW is very similar to Holy, Holy, Holy. Actually, I'd say it's better doctrinally.

In short, TSW is more a hymn of praise, and SUUHC is more a hymn of the day. What's better, an advent hymn or a Christmas hymn or an easter hymn or a baptism hymn or a morning hymn or an evening hymn or a chant or a Trinity hymn...??? They each have their own purpose.

Both are great hymns with great tunes, and I hope the church goes on singing both until the judgement day!

I hope that made some sense, I'm tired...

If you like I will copy and paste his argument in a PM to you. Then you can see for yourself his arguments, but you have been pretty close to what he has said.

[Tetzel]

A lamb goes uncomplaining forth