"Strange fire" and other terms

[ShirChadash]

I know there are some here who have in the past been involved in the charismatic movement (and some who perhaps still are -- please know I do not intend offense with this question but need to ask). The reason I am asking this here is because I am sure at least some Messianics have studied this out and come to the conclusion that the manifestation of certain spiritual gifts is strange fire, forbidden, idolatry, any number of terms one might choose to describe.

My question:

Are there any Biblical occurances of anyone falling backward when in the presence of the Almighty One? Or does Scripture show that people ONLY fall forward in the presence of G-d/His Spirit? Any verses you can provide me, please?

My second question is, are there any occurances in the Word of people falling backward in regard to encountering a demonic/unholy spirit, or being possessed or what-have-you? Also, verses please if so?



My eldest DS went off to Gramma and Grampa's charismatic church this week a couple of times while staying with them, and they had many discussions directly due to the church service. One thing that impacted my son (as we hadn't discussed it before) was when I told him that I had read in the past that there are no Biblical references to people falling backward in the presence of G-d, but that rather, the Biblical accounts ONLY ever describe people forward in His presence; and I had also read that the incidence of falling backward is rather found in connection with encountering a demonic/unholy spirit instead.

I am wondering if anyone else has read this/studied this themselves and can provide me more information on this issue.

Feel free to PM instead of post if you would rather.

Thank you and shalom all,
~Z~

[visionary]

John 18:6 When he said, "I AM," they went back ward from him and fell to the ground. Close.... sounds like they back up in a hurry and then fell to the ground. Not too sure if they just didn't fall backwards because they were backing up so fast or what.

Lexicon says regarding the word fell...

pivptw - a reduplicated and contracted form of peto {pet'-o}, (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses), probably akin to (4072) through the idea of alighting (Pipto) Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pip'-to Verb

Definition
to descend from a higher place to a lower
to fall (either from or upon)
to be thrust down

metaph. to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
to fall down
to be prostrated, fall prostrate
of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
to prostrate one's self

used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
to fall out, fall from i.e. shall perish or be lost
to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
to be cast down from a state of prosperity
to fall from a state of uprightness
to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease 2b
of virtues
to lose authority, no longer have force 2b

of sayings, precepts, etc.
to be removed from power by death
to fail of participating in, miss a share in



One commentary stated....
As soon then as he said unto them, I am He, they went backward--recoiled.
and fell to the ground--struck down by a power such as that which smote Saul of Tarsus and his companions to the earth (Acts 26:14). It was the glorious effulgence of the majesty of Christ which overpowered them. "This, occurring before His surrender, would show His power over His enemies, and so the freedom with which He gave Himself up" [MEYER].

[Charles YTK]

The thing that I think we should consider is that if a person comes into the presence of God in such a powerful way they WILL be brought to the ground. But they will be a changed person when they get back up. If we examine scripture we see this. (Paul, Daniel) Always a life change. How can man come into close proximity with the Holy One and not be really changed. But my experience at Charismatic meetings was that these folk were having a "holy Ghost Roller Coaster ride", by that I mean thrills and chills for the sake of experience resulting in no real change in their lives. 10 minutes later they were right back to the way they were before and off to Denny's for after service lunch. (I came through the Charismatic Churches and have been in the middle of all that) There are real and there are imagined events. I have seen more imagined than true by a large margin. Some people (many) go to the meeting expecting this experience and so they are preconditioned so that at the slightest cue from the preacher they are on the floor. To me the difference is in the life afterward. Has there been a change?

Charles

[visionary]

Who is to say any of those that fell back that night did or did not have a change of experience? Many have experience what they could not explain, and later deny that they experienced anything.

[Henaynei]

Who is to say any of those that fell back that night did or did not have a change of experience? Many have experience what they could not explain, and later deny that they experienced anything.it wouldn't be the first time a face to face with the separation between the Truth of Life and the truth of the life one has chosen motivated a change in course...

[ShirChadash]

Really, I am looking for what Scripture has to say in specific.

Here is what I have found so far on a google search, and I am slowly making my way through the articles:

two articles from letusreason.org

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent14%20.htm

http://www.letusreason.org/Pent33.htm

And a couple of other online articles

http://www.alphathruomega.com/churcherrors/slainspirit.html

http://www.bereanradio.org/BRN_Newsletter_Vol_2.htm

Some Scripture I am finding:

Gen 17:1 Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the R413 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R413) LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, "I am God F268 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F268) Almighty; R414 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R414) Walk before Me, and be blameless. F269 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F269) R415 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R415) 2 "I will establish F270 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F270) My covenant R416 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R416) between Me and you, And I will multiply R417 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R417) you exceedingly." 3 Abram fell R418 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ge+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R418) on his face, and God talked with him...

Lev 9:23 Moses and Aaron went into the tent of meeting. When they came out and blessed the people, the R250 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=le+9&version=nas&showtools=0#R250) glory of the LORD appeared to all the people. 24 Then R251 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=le+9&version=nas&showtools=0#R251) fire came out from before the LORD and consumed the burnt offering and the portions of fat on the altar; and when all the people saw {it,} they shouted and fell on their faces.

Over and over in Scripture, I am seeing Moses seeking the Lord's guidance and wisdom in situation after situation that arose; both when Moses is seeking HaShem, and when He is responding -- when Moses in His Presence and seeking Him personally, and also in his ministry as an intercessor -- I see Moses on his face in the Divine Presence. And not only Moses...

Num 16:1 Now Korah R465 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R465) the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, with Dathan R466 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R466) and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took {action,} 2 and they rose up before Moses, together F223 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#F223) with some of the sons of Israel, two hundred and fifty leaders of the congregation, chosen F224 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#F224) R467 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R467) in the assembly, men of renown. 3 They assembled together against R468 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R468) Moses and Aaron, and said to them, " R469 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R469) You have gone far enough, for all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the R470 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R470) LORD is in their midst; so why do you exalt yourselves above the assembly of the LORD?" 4 When Moses heard {this,} he R471 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R471) fell on his face; 5 and he spoke to Korah and all his company, saying, "Tomorrow morning the LORD will show who is His, and who R472 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R472) is holy, and will bring {him} near to Himself; even the R473 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R473) one whom He will choose, He will bring near to Himself.

20 Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying, 21 " R488 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R488) Separate yourselves from among this congregation, that R489 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R489) I may consume them instantly." 22 But they fell on their faces and said, "O God, God R490 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R490) of the spirits of all flesh, when R491 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R491) one man sins, will You be angry with the entire congregation?"

41 But on the next day all the congregation of the sons of Israel grumbled R507 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R507) against Moses and Aaron, saying, "You are the ones who have caused the death of the LORD'S people." 42 It came about, however, when the congregation had assembled against Moses and Aaron, that they turned toward the tent of meeting, and behold, the cloud covered it and the R508 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R508)43 Then Moses and Aaron came to the front of the tent of meeting, 44 and the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 45 " R509 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=nu+16&version=nas&showtools=0#R509)


Num 20

Deu 9:15

Josh 5:13 Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a R81 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jos+5&version=nas&showtools=0#R81) man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us or for our adversaries?" 14 He said, "No; rather I indeed come now {as} captain of the host of the LORD." And Joshua fell R82 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jos+5&version=nas&showtools=0#R82) on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, "What has my lord to say to his servant?" 15 The captain of the LORD'S host said to Joshua, " R83 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jos+5&version=nas&showtools=0#R83) Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy." And Joshua did so.

Jos 7:6 Then Joshua tore R107 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jos+7&version=nas&showtools=0#R107) his clothes and fell to the earth on his face before the ark of the LORD until the evening, {both} he and the elders of Israel; and they R108 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=jos+7&version=nas&showtools=0#R108) put dust on their heads.

Even Job:

Job 1:20 Then Job arose and tore R26 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=job+1&version=nas&showtools=0#R26) his robe and shaved his head, and he fell to the ground and worshiped. 21 He said, " R27 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=job+1&version=nas&showtools=0#R27) Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked I shall return there. The LORD R28 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=job+1&version=nas&showtools=0#R28) gave and the LORD has taken away. Blessed be the name of the LORD." 22 Through R29 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=job+1&version=nas&showtools=0#R29) all this Job did not sin nor did he blame F13 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=job+1&version=nas&showtools=0#F13) God.


And the list goes on.

Even simply those who are acknowledging a king are shown in Scripture to fall forward onto their faces as a sign of their submission to his authority and place over them... how much moreso should I see this as natural and expected behavior, or the result of being, in the presence of The King from believers in Him?

[g4goddess]

forgive me, but why does it matter what direction a person falls? if the holy spirit moves, that's what's important isn't it?

[Wags]

forgive me, but why does it matter what direction a person falls? if the holy spirit moves, that's what's important isn't it?

Because there is usual a counterfeit to the real work of the Ruach HaKodesh, and it is important for believers to be able to recognize it when they see it.

[ShirChadash]

forgive me, but why does it matter what direction a person falls? if the holy spirit moves, that's what's important isn't it?

If. Yes, if.

The crux is... a spirit may be moving, but frankly I am not at all convinced, and am actually quite persuaded otherwise -- having been through it for years myself and now having come through, out the other side, and once again studying it -- that it is the Spirit of G-d doing so. There is nothing new under the sun, His Word tells us so. So, if there is any move of HIS Spirit, just as His Spirit has moved among HIS people time and again, then the manifestations of such movement will be in accordance with both His Working and His Ways as revealed to us in His Word.

G-d is not the author of chaos, nor confusion, He is the Author of order. If Scripture shows me that those who are in the presence of the Spirit of G-d behave naturally in certain ways... and that those who are being subjected to a demonic presence or oppression behave in other certain ways... then, well... as 1 Thess. 5:21 says, I have to remember to examine everything carefully/test all things, and hold fast to that which is good.

It's important to take everything captive to obedience to the Word, not just our thoughts, but also behaviors and "movements" among His people.

[Bruce101]

Being Pentecostal, and having eyes to see, I am not sure that which direction you go matters. It seems that the instances of folks falling forwards are actually them going prostrate in an expression of worship.
However I do know that there are plenty that get caught up in the emotion of things and let the excitement get the better of them. I have never been "slain" in the spirit, but I was "knocked down" once.
My knees just went out from underneath of me, like someone hit the back of them forcefully and down I went. A sweet experience that left me in deep thought afterwards about the things of God.
Holy Ghost on Sunday and living like a sailor on Monday, no.

Bruce

[plum]

What would bother me is that, in worry that this action would be considered demonic, evil, wrong, or fake, I would actually prevent myself from giving in to this experience. I have resisted the Spirit before, many times before, for fear of what others think. Have I benefited from that resistance? no. not at all.

So I don't want to prevent the work of the Spirit in whatever form it comes.

I have noted before that the "slain in the spirit" motif does not occur in Scripture, so far as I have found. But in my life, has that stopped God from doing mighty things to me and through me? No.

But thinking about it, analyzing it, and fearing it stops it.

[AlikhnKwizad]

Counterfit is delicious... Just a little deception here & a little there adds up over time... it's a crack in the door. Then comes the foot... then the leg... before you know it you've got some serious problems.

Sure G-d can take something meant for evil & use it for good. But the End does not justify the Means.

HaSatan can convince people aliens are comming to carry them away in a spaceship... and the whole group happily commits suicide to shed their earthly vessles... off to meet the Visitors... peace, love, and lots of cool-aid.... etc.

The not so obvious affects are when certain spiritual attachments show up several generations down the line... that's harder to detect, pinpoint, and fix...

I once heard of some group of "holy rollers" back in the early 1900's who were "Filled" with the Spirit & began to act like dogs & bark "demons" up the trees...

Did those people REALLY think that was from G-d??????? Probably so. It would be interesting to do some research on the offspring of those who held on to that "spirit" & never renounced it...

Just something to think about...

[visionary]

Counterfit would want to be as close as it can get without enough truth for you to see the true light. Counterfit would get you depend on the experience rather than continue to experience new light in Yeshua. In other words, if you go week after week to experience being "slain in the spirit" but afterwards were no closer in your relationship with the Holy One of Israel, then where was the enlightenment.

[plum]

Counterfit would get you depend on the experience rather than continue to experience new light in Yeshua. In other words, if you go week after week to experience being "slain in the spirit" but afterwards were no closer in your relationship with the Holy One of Israel, then where was the enlightenment.
That's it right there.

[ShirChadash]

Counterfit is delicious... Just a little deception here & a little there adds up over time... it's a crack in the door. Then comes the foot... then the leg... before you know it you've got some serious problems.


This is both my experience -- having been a pentecostal/charismatic for the vast majority of my life as a Christian, having eyes to see and ears to hear and a capability to discern what I saw and heard and witnessed, as well as the fruit thereof -- and my firm belief.

but really, all of the personal "takes" on this matter very little to me which is why I asked specifically only for Scripture, considering -- again -- I do believe it is very clear in the Word... there is no precedent for people who are truly in the Divine Presence of HaShem behaving as we see happening within the modern "Pentecostal" movement... barking like dogs, roaring like lions, "holy" laughter, being "slain" (a violent term) by a spirit, etc.

[visionary]

I agree. One of the reasons I could not get into charasmatic, was because it gave me the creeps. My feeling was there was somethng wrong. I did n't know what at the time, but I trusted my instincts, gut feelings, and what little faith I had in connection to God to tell me what was right and what was wrong. I went this one time, and the preacher focusses on me, getting in my face, making all kinds of wild accusations, telling me to repent and be saved and such, then tried to get me to be slain. Nothing happened. He tried again. Still nothing. After a few attempts, he finally got frustrated and left me with condemation on his lips. Some how I felt blessed. Blessed that it didn't happen.

[Sephania]

Being Pentecostal, and having eyes to see, I am not sure that which direction you go matters. It seems that the instances of folks falling forwards are actually them going prostrate in an expression of worship.
However I do know that there are plenty that get caught up in the emotion of things and let the excitement get the better of them. I have never been "slain" in the spirit, but I was "knocked down" once.
My knees just went out from underneath of me, like someone hit the back of them forcefully and down I went. A sweet experience that left me in deep thought afterwards about the things of God.
Holy Ghost on Sunday and living like a sailor on Monday, no.

Bruce My husband was knocked down once, and in the presence (humanly ) of no one, he was in the living room and I in the office. He was doing some soul searching and was praying standing up, he usually gets on his knees but I think he said he was pacing around before he came to stand in front of the window. All I know was that I heard a thud like a car had hit the house and I ran out to see him laying spread eagled on the living room floor, his arms spread over his head and legs spread apart, only inches from the surrounding furniture, but hadn't hit a thing. Afterwards he said he felt no pain, and that before it happened he was praying and then he felt something like a hand give him a slight push on the center of his chest and over he went. This had never happened to him before, and I have always thought those who did this were fakes and even have done intensive research on how they do it. Now I could see it he were with someone else , but alone?

Actually when it happened after I got him to open his eyes I could tell it was something from the L-Rd but not understanding, so I rushed here, to my 'family' and told them what happened and I got the same response as this thread is speaking about, that because he fell backwards it was from the devil. :(

[Sephania]

Oh, and the L-RD was dealing with my husband about rebellion.

[plum]

I understand you want Biblical references, Zem. I think we all recognize that isn't happening and might not happen. It'd be an awfully short thread if we didn't share personal experiences I guess! :)

See, what really boggles my mind are those experiences that aren't for show... like when my dad was "drunk in the spirit" (which I'd never heard of before he said it). He was in deep prayer alone in his office for hours on end. Apparently he was so overwhelmed with the Spirit that he was in some kind of... stupor for lack of a better word. *shrug* It's all kind of weird, because I don't see the Spirit doing any of that in the Scriptures... and this was an isolated event that my father didn't even look for or desire... just what happened out of his prayer time. *shrug* I guess it's just not so easy to classify some of these experiences as "they need to 'feel' the Spirit, so they cause these things to happen on their own." or "this is from satan because it's obviously counterfeit." but I don't see it as anything evil because of what it did for my father's relationship with God and his experience in prayer. So it's just not as easy as most of us would like it to be, that's all.

[visionary]

Who is to say that God did not "knock your love off his feet". Mighty wind can do that.

[ShirChadash]

I understand you want Biblical references, Zem. I think we all recognize that isn't happening and might not happen. It'd be an awfully short thread if we didn't share personal experiences I guess! :) That's all right. I came here first because this is one of the places I saw it discussed once and was hoping that people might recall sharing the info before (I don't know who it was :scratch: ) and didn't even consider going straight to google first. When I realized people weren't coming up with much Scripture, I went ahead and googled for it. It's all good, I found what I was looking for :) .

[AlikhnKwizad]

I wish there was a simple answer. I believe some people really do experience the power of G-d in a physical way... But I don't think it happens as frequently as some would like to believe.

[In scripture, has anyone ever fallen down when someone prayed over them? Was it just when G-d appeared to one individual as a voice, or angel, or light, etc.?? Did this 'power' manifest when people were alone in prayer, or in large groups? Did it affect everyone in the group or just one individual???

Was there always an explination of what just occured? Or was it some vague experience that come and went without clear understanding?]

And a question for everyone who has experienced this type of thing... Did the person understand why they experienced it? What was the result?

I'd like to see the the Biblical refrences too! Post them when you get some Zem. If I get time I'll look some stuff up.

[visionary]

I can only give a testimony of my own experience, it was private and I was in the presence of Holiness. I was cleansed of all my sins yet felt so unworthy to be in the presence of Holiness. I felt like Isaiah who exclaimed " Woe is me, for I am unclean" My mind had never been sharper, as it took in everything that was happening. God is real. He is Holy One of Israel, and He is not kidding about anything written in scripture. It is all true. It is all real and it is coming soon. Those who are not prepared for the kingdom that is coming will wither away like hot wax before Him. THey will cry out to the rock to fall on them, they will be overwhelmed by His Holiness. Sin does not exist in the presence of God and the sinner who still has sin clinging to them, sin in the heart will burst into flame and perish.

[Vaneeza Malkah]

I always thought that the falling foreward in the scriptures referred to prostrating ones self???

[Tishri1]

during a prayer service when I was in my teens a friend was in another room and kept calling us in there...he was laughing and could'nt stop...then he would touch us and we would fall down and laugh and couldn't stop...this kept happening till we were all on the floor laughing and couldn't stop or get up....the last person he touched was himself and he fell down and couldn't move either or stop laughing...it was fun but we didn't know how it happened

[Charles YTK]

This is both my experience -- having been a pentecostal/charismatic for the vast majority of my life as a Christian, having eyes to see and ears to hear and a capability to discern what I saw and heard and witnessed, as well as the fruit thereof -- and my firm belief.

but really, all of the personal "takes" on this matter very little to me which is why I asked specifically only for Scripture, considering -- again -- I do believe it is very clear in the Word... there is no precedent for people who are truly in the Divine Presence of HaShem behaving as we see happening within the modern "Pentecostal" movement... barking like dogs, roaring like lions, "holy" laughter, being "slain" (a violent term) by a spirit, etc.

1KI 19:11 The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. [12] After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. [13] When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave.
Then a voice said to him, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

The still small quiet voice in the spirit.

[statrei]

during a prayer service when I was in my teens a friend was in another room and kept calling us in there...he was laughing and could'nt stop...then he would touch us and we would fall down and laugh and couldn't stop...this kept happening till we were all on the floor laughing and couldn't stop or get up....the last person he touched was himself and he fell down and couldn't move either or stop laughing...it was fun but we didn't know how it happenedKeep it true if you want credulity. Obviously, you could stop because you did. Who touched you to make you stop? How did you know when to stop? Who stopped first?

[ShirChadash]

Charles... how does that passage have to do with being slain in the spirit?

[Tishri1]

Keep it true if you want credulity. Obviously, you could stop because you did. Who touched you to make you stop? How did you know when to stop? Who stopped first? I was just retelling a memory I have...what gives?:hug:

When I was a young new believer I felt like I was invinsable....but in reality I was just as vunerable to the tactics of the enemy as anyone...It was just that I had more trust and less chutzpah back then(I loved and believed EVERYTHING, and had no fear....and no common sence or understanding either hehehe, we were all innocent and felt protected back then and I believe we were, inspite of the PROWLER)

ABBA wants us to remember our first love, well my first experiences were goofy and maybe even WRONG...but I love them as they are reminders of the love I had and need to hold on to when dark days ahead try to pull me down for real next time....the Birth Pains of the Messiah will not be a laughing matter:( :wave:

[statrei]

I was just retelling a memory I have...what gives?:hug:

When I was a young new believer I felt like I was invinsable....but in reality I was just as vunerable to the tactics of the enemy as anyone...It was just that I had more trust and less chutzpah back then(I loved and believed EVERYTHING, and had no fear....and no common sence or understanding either hehehe, we were all innocent and felt protected back then and I believe we were, inspite of the PROWLER)

ABBA wants us to remember our first love, well my first experiences were goofy and maybe even WRONG...but I love them as they are reminders of the love I had and need to hold on to when dark days ahead try to pull me down for real next time....the Birth Pains of the Messiah will not be a laughing matter:( :wave:Thanks for the clarification. I wish you strength in your walk.

[Kelly]

I always thought that the falling foreward in the scriptures referred to prostrating ones self???

me too.

[ShirChadash]

It isn't falling forward that I am concerned about -- naturally, yes, prostrating oneself is falling forward and an act of at the very least reverential respect and at other times, doubtlessly, worship and awe. We see this all thorughout the Scriptures. What we do not see is any account of anyone falling backward in the presence of the Almighty G-d, not to mention any of the many other behaviors we see manifesting in the modern Pentecostal/Charismatic movement. We do, however, see many of them occuring in Scripture in connection with a demonic presence/manifestation. That causes me concern, personally.

[Charles YTK]

Charles... how does that passage have to do with being slain in the spirit?

Being slain in the spirit is like the thunder, the wind, the earthquake. They are powerful to our senses. It plays into our emotions, especially in events like the laughing, dog barking, and such. God does not do much with our senses because they are powerful input to us and their are easily deceived. Many people line up every night to go to the church meeting for the thrill of being slain in the spirit. They are preconditioned and expect it to happen and will find their senses will play right along with it.

An Example: Tell me those folks who go up on the stage with Benny Hinn don't have an expectation of him touching them and their falling over backward into the arms of the catchers. Sure they do and so it will happen.

Now look at the man who practices this and who claims to have this power. Is he a righteous man, is he humble and full of gentleness, living by Gods Torah observing Gods sabbath ect? No. He is a false prophet and some of the things that comes out of his mouth are right from the sulfur pit. So do I think this sort of being slain in the spirit is a good thing? No. God usually speaks to us in that small still voice from deep inside, not with falling down and such.

This does not mean that it never happens with God. Certainly it does. But here is the test. Does the one who is slain in the spirit come up from the floor a profoundly changed person with a new zeal for God and brought to a new place of obedience? (Like Paul, like Daniel) If not, then something is wrong because mortal man can not come into the presence of God in such power that he loses conscience or control without having profound changes deep inside.

Not in the earthquake and not in the thunder but in the small still voice. There is where the Lord usually come to us.

[AlikhnKwizad]

I think that is right on--- What is the result of the experience?

I cannot imagine anyone comming into contact with that kinda of power (from G-d) and NOT being changed.

I have been prayed over while everyone was falling down arround me. I felt energy... but in my mind I said to G-d "If this is from You, You are going to have to blow me away, because I'm not submitting to an emotional reaction, or energy that comes from a source other than You. If You are in this SHOW ME."

Nothing happened. I felt energy pushing on me (I don't know how to describe it) & I felt myself pushing back against it.

Now, they say "G-d is a gentleman. He won't force anything on you. You have to recieve it."

Now--- how does one know then they are submitting to G-d.... and when they are opening themselves up to another source of energy/power... opening a door to Hasatan?

gatta go...

[stone]

Some people (many) go to the meeting expecting this experience and so they are preconditioned so that at the slightest cue from the preacher they are on the floor. To me the difference is in the life afterward. Has there been a change?

Charles

What kind of a church would this be? I am curious and would like to see this.

[Charles YTK]

What kind of a church would this be? I am curious and would like to see this.

Charismatic, Pentecostal, several nondenominational. There are even some Charismatic/Messianic in betweens, that do this. There are large groups like the Pensecola meeting and brownsville?. If you want to see it and not leave home tune into TBN and watch folk like Benny Hinn.

Charles

[visionary]

If you are praying to God while you are watching asking if this is right, and the Lord gives you an uneasy feeling about it. I would say search your heart and ask God to again speak to you. From my experience, there was nothing Holy about this "slain in the spirit". I have been in the presence of Holiness and I would pray that it happens again. IT is the real thing when you experience it and know that you are unclean in the presence of God. It is not a thrill but is humbling and enriching.

[Mikhail]

Being slain in the spirit is like the thunder, the wind, the earthquake. They are powerful to our senses. It plays into our emotions, especially in events like the laughing, dog barking, and such. God does not do much with our senses because they are powerful input to us and their are easily deceived. Many people line up every night to go to the church meeting for the thrill of being slain in the spirit. They are preconditioned and expect it to happen and will find their senses will play right along with it.

An Example: Tell me those folks who go up on the stage with Benny Hinn don't have an expectation of him touching them and their falling over backward into the arms of the catchers. Sure they do and so it will happen.

Now look at the man who practices this and who claims to have this power. Is he a righteous man, is he humble and full of gentleness, living by Gods Torah observing Gods sabbath ect? No. He is a false prophet and some of the things that comes out of his mouth are right from the sulfur pit. So do I think this sort of being slain in the spirit is a good thing? No. God usually speaks to us in that small still voice from deep inside, not with falling down and such.

This does not mean that it never happens with God. Certainly it does. But here is the test. Does the one who is slain in the spirit come up from the floor a profoundly changed person with a new zeal for God and brought to a new place of obedience? (Like Paul, like Daniel) If not, then something is wrong because mortal man can not come into the presence of God in such power that he loses conscience or control without having profound changes deep inside.

Not in the earthquake and not in the thunder but in the small still voice. There is where the Lord usually come to us.

Well said any man that has Jesuit Priest's as his advisors on how to run is meetings as Benny Hinn does in his meetings cannot possibly be Godly.

I also have had genuine experiences of being under the power of God but I have also seen the same up the from for the same problem week after week with no change that is scary.

I have also seen how without a foundation in the Torah that it is easy to be deceived by a angel of light that is not bearing witness to the truth.
Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

[AlikhnKwizad]

True, Vis-- When I have "felt" G-d... it has been quiet, and deep, and yes- I was very aware of my "unclean" state.

Hashem has appeared to me in that still, small voice...

I could not "stand" before Him in spirit... I wasn't physically blown over by some crazy energy surge... I was humbled within myself... and I have chosen to prostrate myself because of what was going on in my heart... And those experiences happened when I have been alone with Him... it wasn't a public affair.:)

[debi b]

closed for review