Question about TULIP

[daveleau]

I was speaking with a Reformed Christian and I told him of my belief that "TULP" is constantly in effect, but my study has led me to believe that the "I" is not supported because of all the instances (ie. Jewish in Jerusalem that disregarded Jesus' teaching) of people refusing God and the logic that an automaton world is contrary to the purpose of Creation. His response was that if you denounce the "I" based on Free Will (see below for my basis for FW), that one cannot truly believe in any other portion of "TULIP." Is this the mainstream Reformed belief? The discussion seemed to imply that believing other than Calvinistic ideals meant that one was not Christian according to Reformed theology. Is this so?


My belief regarding FW and Predestination is that God tells us that is sovereign. He is completely sovereign. But, he asks us to follow, so He must limit His sovereignty. Otherwise, controlling each motion would turn us into robots. Foreknowledge does not affect free will, but enacting force (not guidance but forcing people to do things without any chance for choosing differently) conflicts with many passages (I'll give a list if requested) that support free will. I do not limit God's sovereignty- He can do all things. And, I do not deny that Scripture says that God knows what will happen to the end and He knew it from the beginning. I am not meaning the scientia media (middle knowledge) as the Open Theists (the very liberal new theology), but that He knows what is going to happen and works outside of time. He limits Himself to not deny Free Will when He desires, but also uses His sovereignty to enact as He desires.

I have a good friend who is Reformed (Lutheran) and I plan to start going to their church occasionally for Bible Study and discussion. Their pastor is a really nice guy and we talked a bit about seminary experiences.

Thanks for your thoughts.
God bless you.
Dave

[CoffeeSwirls]

I would say that the matter of a person's understanding of salvation has no final authority over reality. There are Calvinists that love knowing about God, but don't know God and there are Arminians who have been chosen but don't see it that way. This isn't an attempt to label one group as the "better Christians" than the other, by the way. It is a snapshot of the sovereignty of God over the interpretations of man.

Is Calvinism correct? Yes, I believe it is, based on my study of the Bible. Is that what saved me? Not at all.

[Imblessed]

snipped........ His response was that if you denounce the "I" based on Free Will (see below for my basis for FW), that one cannot truly believe in any other portion of "TULIP." Is this the mainstream Reformed belief? The discussion seemed to imply that believing other than Calvinistic ideals meant that one was not Christian according to Reformed theology. Is this so?


Thanks for your thoughts.
God bless you.
Dave

Hmm, I don't think that he was saying that one was not christian if they didn't believe the calvinistic ideals, but that taking the "I" out of TULIP means that one doesn't truly understand TULIP.

I personally think that each aspect of TULIP builds on the others, and to misunderstand or reject one is to misunderstand or reject all of TULIP.

But by no means can anyone say that another is not christian based on this!!!! There are Calvinists who are not elect as surely as there are arminians or catholics or lutherans or methodists or Quakers or any other denomination that are. Election is not based on our understanding of theology! If that were so, I was not christian until 5 months ago, when I embraced the Doctrines of Grace known also as Calvinism......

[5solas]

There are threads here:
http://www.christianforums.com/t1843699-tulip.html
http://www.christianforums.com/t681417-tulip.html

[daveleau]

I don't understand how the different aspects of TULIP build upon each other. How does Irresistable Grace affect Perseverance of the saints or Limited Atonement? I can see how the blanket application of fulltime/ full-use sovereignty of God can affect each. Is that what is intended?

Thanks for all the responses.

Dave

[CoffeeSwirls]

Because we are depraved, we could not elect to be in Christ for we had no desire to be in the presence of God, thus He had to elect us. Because we are elected by God, it stands to reason that there are those who were not elected. Not a single drop of Jesus' blood was wasted on the cross. He died for those he was sent to deliver to the Father. The plan of God will not be thwarted by the resistance of a finite created being. God changes our heart, causing us to love Him and choose Him. Because our salvation is not founded in our own efforts or our own decisions, but in God's power, there is nothing we (back to the finite created being) can do to thwart the eternal plan of God.

I kept that as brief as I could, as my free time is short today.

[Elderone]

daveleau

Your post talked about "Free-Will". A little more than halfway down the page at the this (http://www.calvinistworldview.com/) web address is an article by John Calvin on Free Will. Our egos make it difficult to accept that we have the ability to make choices, most of the time the wrong ones, but we do not have free will. To have a "real" free will would require being absolutely neutral and that isn't possible because of original sin.

[Elderone]

I might add, there are almost 30 articles on Free-Will at the following address.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html

[orthedoxy]

daveleau

Your post talked about "Free-Will". A little more than halfway down the page at the this (http://www.calvinistworldview.com/) web address is an article by John Calvin on Free Will. Our egos make it difficult to accept that we have the ability to make choices, most of the time the wrong ones, but we do not have free will. To have a "real" free will would require being absolutely neutral and that isn't possible because of original sin.

Do calvinists believe the elect have "real free will" once they believe?

[Behe's Boy]

Do calvinists believe the elect have "real free will" once they believe?

That is a very good question - and has the potential to explode into serious disagreement around here, because I believe the answer to the question above depends on who you are talking to within Reformed circles.

The answer I would give is "no" because it implies that upon belief one has the choice to "stop believing" or somehow now has the magical ability to lead a righteous life. To believe it implies that now that you are saved you have to maintain that salvation through the power of your own free-will and choice. This is not grace and is not what is represented by TULIP or more importantly - scripture.

In short I believe sanctification is a gift that flows from salvation - and that it is not a means to it. Many, many reformed theologians (such as John Piper) would disagree with that statement. The problem is - that if you disagree with that statement then you are in essence saying that at some point in the salvation process you have free-will as well as the responsibility to maintain it. That is wrong in ligth of "Grace Alone."

Hope that makes sense....

Dave

[Elderone]

Do calvinists believe the elect have "real free will" once they believe?

I agree with Behe's Boy and say "no" also. Here is another way to look at it.

At Justification the the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to make good choices - before this we were not able to make good choices - we are no longer under bondage to sin, we are never given more temptation than we can handle with the Holy Spirits help.

1Co 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.


However, we still have the sin nature. One way to look at it, simplistically, is if your on a diet and someone gives you a dessert which shouldn't be eaten. Your conscience tells you "don't eat it" but your appetite says "go ahead it won't be a problem", and it is right there in front of you.

Mt 26:41 "Watch and pray, lest you enter into temptation. The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak."


All throughtout the Santification process the Christian fights the sin nature as it is always with us until we die and are Glorified.

Here is what the Westminster Confession of Faith, Chapter 13. ON SANTIFICATION says.

Paragraph 1.

They, who are once effectually called, and regenerated, having a new heart, and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection,a by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them:b the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed,c and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified;d and they more and more quickened and strengthened in all saving graces,e to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.f

a. 1 Cor. 6:11; Acts 20:32; Phil. 3:10; Rom. 6:5–6.

b. John 17:17; Eph. 5:26; 2 Thess. 2:13.

c. Rom. 6:6, 14.

d. Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8:13.

e. Col. 1:11; Eph. 3:16–19.

f. 2 Cor. 7:1; Heb. 12:14.

Paragraph 2.

This sanctification is throughout, in the whole man;a yet imperfect in this life, there abiding still some remnants of corruption in every part;b whence ariseth a continual and irreconcilable war, the flesh lusting against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh.c

a. 1 Thess. 5:23.

b. 1 John 1:10; Rom. 7:18, 23; Phil. 3:12.

c. Gal. 5:17; 1 Pet. 2:11.


Paragraph 3.

In which war, although the remaining corruption, for a time, may much prevail;a yet, through the continual supply of strength from the sanctifying Spirit of Christ, the regenerate part doth overcome;b and so, the saints grow in grace,c perfecting holiness in the fear of God.d

a. Rom. 7:23.

b. Rom. 6:14; 1 John 5:4; Eph. 4:15–16.

c. 2 Pet. 3:18; 2 Cor. 3:18.

d. 2 Cor. 7:1.


I hope this is of some help.

[Rick Otto]

Yo, Daveleau...

"I was speaking with a Reformed Christian and I told him of my belief that "TULP" is constantly in effect, but my study has led me to believe that the "I" is not supported because of all the instances (ie. Jewish in Jerusalem that disregarded Jesus' teaching) of people refusing God and the logic that an automaton world is contrary to the purpose of Creation. His response was that if you denounce the "I" based on Free Will (see below for my basis for FW), that one cannot truly believe in any other portion of "TULIP." Is this the mainstream Reformed belief? The discussion seemed to imply that believing other than Calvinistic ideals meant that one was not Christian according to Reformed theology. Is this so?"

>Dave, TULIP is not the whole of "Calvinism", so "Calvinistic ideals" is a bit broad & vague as a term.
I adhere to TULIP as best I unnerstan' it, but part ways with Calvin on his ecclesiology, especialy how he dealt with church discipline(Servetus).

However, I would venture that the answer to your question is in the question as you asked it...
meaning, "Irresistable Grace" is only irriesistable for those whom it was Limited to in the Atonement... only those who were placed "in" Christ 'before the foundation of the world' - a plan, not a random sampling based on what God was clairvoyant of(whosoever decides for themselves), but rather those elect He foreknew by His considered sovereign decision. Lumps of clay that are predestined to have their eyes & ears opened, don't & can't resist it being done, and those predestined to be hardened(like Pharaoh & those Jews you mentioned), resist grace because they cannot defy God's sovereign will & their sin nature either. Both illustrate God's glory.

The notion of "autonomy" belonging to dirt(us), is laughable to God. Only a creator can claim autonomy over & within His own creation. Creatures are by definition bound by the limits of creation.
The claim of contrariness to "the" purpose of creation infers knowing the purpose of creation.
Creation serves the Creator. If the Creator chooses to serve some or all of creation, it does not change the fact that a creation serves it creator. It can't do anything else.

I understand how devastating it is to realize how totaly depraved, spiritualy dead & ontologicaly worthless we are, but that is what needing salvation is all about. It's actualy worse than being a robot, it's about being dirt. Our most righteous, noble, altruistic efforts are filthy rags, if they are not His specific will being lived out thru us.

Ya need to understand we are born spiritualy dead, unable to discern or desire spiritual things (as opposed to religious things). We have will, but it is more like instinct, in that it is sin-directed, even when it dresses up & feeds the poor, etc. - that's the difference between outwardly huimble & inwardly proud religious expression & truly humble, or just matter-of-fact spiritual expression.
The ego(ourself) is way over-rated, until it's bent(rebirthed) toward gloryfying God, & only God can bend it that way. And what still mystifies me, is that He doesn't resurrect our dead spirit, He says He gives us a new one! So don't look to ME for all the answers, please.
I'm still pretty new at this Reform Theology. I didn't "get" it until about 5yrs ago.

It inspired me to study the history of "the church" & the history of its doctrine.
Jacobus Arminius is just a Jesuit up-date of a guy named Pelagius, who kicked the doctrine of Original Sin(Total Depravity) to the curb, in favor of the notion of "free" will. Some redeeming quality that supposedly survived Adam's fall.


"I don't understand how the different aspects of TULIP build upon each other. How does Irresistable Grace affect Perseverance of the saints or Limited Atonement? I can see how the blanket application of fulltime/ full-use sovereignty of God can affect each. Is that what is intended?"


>Dave, I kinda hoped my above response exhibits the linkage, but for help's sake...
Irresistable grace is the engine that drives the perseverance of the saints. It's the program those robots follow (lol). R2D2, C3PO, & Data didn't have problems with bein' robots, & they managed to have a LOT more personality than many people I know... well Data had a Pinnochio complex, but more & better programming fixed that. That's better than the Peter Pan complex so many men are afflicted with anyway. Limited Atonement is just the list from His book of who He licensed & distributed His "Saving Grace Program" to.

Accepting the fact that we are dirt, robots,(totaly depraved) is simply a matter of pride, if ya 'ax' me, pal. And when it comes to created reality, there is no room for pride. We had nothin' to do with it, so why should it be so hard to accept that we have no salvific control in it? Matter of fact, we are most reliable in our ability to muck things up, so realizing Total Sovereignity of God should be reLIEVing... humbling, but DEFinitely a huge relief. AND it makes it both more possible AND necessary to TRUST God for providence, no? Not a bad deal if it was His goodness that brought ya to repentence, rather than guilt & shame over blowin' it & maybe gettin' caught(bein' imperfect).

Glad your curious. Hope I helped.
Learnin' how God is sovereign & yet I am responsible for my sin, was the biggest Reform bump for me to get over, Daveleau! Explainin' what I believe is a great way to learn it better. Thanks for the opportunity!

Otto

[Jon_]

(Note, I am going to contend with a few things that you have said, but only so that I might show what I perceive to be a misunderstanding of Calvinism. Please take this in a spirit of correction and not contention. My purpose is to show where you are inconsistent in your affirmation of Calvinism, so that you may be edified by learning the truth of it.)

I was speaking with a Reformed Christian and I told him of my belief that "TULP" is constantly in effect, but my study has led me to believe that the "I" is not supported because of all the instances (ie. Jewish in Jerusalem that disregarded Jesus' teaching) of people refusing God and the logic that an automaton world is contrary to the purpose of Creation.
Have you considered the possibility that they were purposed to disbelief, as reported in 1 Peter 2:8?

His response was that if you denounce the "I" based on Free Will (see below for my basis for FW), that one cannot truly believe in any other portion of "TULIP." Is this the mainstream Reformed belief?
Yes, it is.

The discussion seemed to imply that believing other than Calvinistic ideals meant that one was not Christian according to Reformed theology. Is this so?
We, as men, are not judges of souls. We can only proclaim the truth that we have been given. Since any deviation from the five fundamental points of Calvinist soteriology constitutes a denial of the entire system, the resultant soteriological profession is Arminianism.

Arminianism has twice been condemned as heretical. Once at the Council of Orange, 529 A.D. Once at the Synod of Dordt, 1618-1619 A.D.

My belief regarding FW and Predestination is that God tells us that is sovereign. He is completely sovereign. But, he asks us to follow, so He must limit His sovereignty.
It is logically impossible for God to limit his sovereignty. God's sovereignty is a part of his divine nature. He cannot change his own nature, just as we cannot change our own nature. It is a logical impossibility. I cannot will myself to become a bird. God cannot will himself to be non-sovereign, or even only semi-sovereign. He is completely and totally sovereign and it is impossible for him to be otherwise. This is one of the foundational principles of Calvinism and denial of it is precisely why anything but a five-point system cannot stand.

Otherwise, controlling each motion would turn us into robots.
Based on what? What qualifies as a robot? What qualifies as "controlling"? Why was God able to harden Pharaoh, but not able to irresistably save men? Why was God justified in choosing Israel when they didn't choose him? Where in the Bible does it say that God must limit his own sovereignty or men would be robots? Does the Bible not declare God the Potter and men the clay? Does the Potter not shape and mold the clay against the will of the clay? Does the clay have any say as to what shape it is molded into?

Foreknowledge does not affect free will, but enacting force (not guidance but forcing people to do things without any chance for choosing differently) conflicts with many passages (I'll give a list if requested) that support free will.
I request such a list.

I do not limit God's sovereignty- He can do all things.
Yet you just declared that God must limit his sovereignty else we would just be "robots."

And, I do not deny that Scripture says that God knows what will happen to the end and He knew it from the beginning. I am not meaning the scientia media (middle knowledge) as the Open Theists (the very liberal new theology), but that He knows what is going to happen and works outside of time.
This is well. I am glad you understand the accursed nature of Open Theism.

He limits Himself to not deny Free Will when He desires, but also uses His sovereignty to enact as He desires.
Again, this is contradictory. You assert that he limits himself to not deny free will, but that he also uses his sovereignty to enact what he desires. God desires the repentance and belief of his elect, therefore he enacts it sovereignly. But among the points you contend to uphold (T - Total Depravity) is the assertion that man is incapable of choosing God. Therefore, God must irresistably regenerate him because if left to his own devices, the man would never choose God. This is a doctrine that you say you uphold, but your denial of irresistable grace conflicts with that.

Since you neither believe that man is totally depraved nor that God's grace is irresistable, it follows that you do not uphold unconditional election, as unconditional election teaches that God chose his elect without consideration of the merit of the individuals, not deeds, not abilities, and certainly not faith, for we are all born without faith, this being part of our original sin nature. Thus, since God must irresistably save those he unconditionally elects, you cannot uphold the doctrine of unconditional election.

As God's grace is not irresistable, you cannot assert that he can use his grace to keep men from apostasy. Those men who "believe" in Christ and make a public profession of faith, but never bear any fruit, are not truly regenerated and did not have true faith according to the Scriptures. "You will know them by their fruits" (Matt. 7:20). Unless you profess an antinomian doctrine that good works are not a requirement of true faith (which is precisely what James says), you cannot affirm perseverence of the saints without irresistable grace. That leaves us with just limited atonement, which becomes meaningless unless God had purposed men to salvation. Jesus did not die in vain. He died to save that which was lost. Those predesinated by God are that which was lost, but is now found and saved in Jesus Christ. For these God's grace is poured out in abundance, while the rest of mankind is left to its wickedness and evil devices, so that God's mercy and glory may be greater magnified in the saving of his elect from the destruction of the reprobate.

I have a good friend who is Reformed (Lutheran) and I plan to start going to their church occasionally for Bible Study and discussion. Their pastor is a really nice guy and we talked a bit about seminary experiences.
That's wonderful, but Lutheran is not Reformed. Lutherans are quite different from the Reformed on many doctrinal views, which are out of the scope of this thread, but relevantly, on the doctrine of limited atonement, which, as I just discussed, is the most often rejected point.

Thanks for your thoughts.
God bless you.
Dave
Thanks for your post, Dave. I think that perhaps you had some misconceptions about the five-points of Calvinism. I would recommend visiting this site:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/calvinism.html

. . . and having a look at some of the articles featured there. They should give you a better idea of the true character of Calvinism. It's hard for many people these days because men like Norman Geisler are trying to portray a false view of Calvinism, whch is causing people to affirm doctrines that they really have nothing in common with. I would encourage you to really read up on the issue. If you can honestly say that you affirm double predestination and praise God's wisdom and grace as a result, then you are truly a Calvinist.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Rick Otto]

HalleLUJA!
I get a rush readin' you bro!
I am SO ignorant & unable to articulate!
What a blessing I count you!!!
Thank God for YOU, Jon!
I am more than TWICE your age,
& you are schoolin' ME!
:cool:

[Elderone]

HalleLUJA!
I get a rush readin' you bro!
I am SO ignorant & unable to articulate!
What a blessing I count you!!!
Thank God for YOU, Jon!
I am more than TWICE your age,
& you are schoolin' ME!
:cool:


..... and I second that. :thumbsup: It is very comforting to know that the Holy Spirit is bringing along a large group of young people and giving them such a GREAT grasp of Scripture.

[Jon_]

As the hymn proclaims, God's grace is indeed amazing. And it is his grace alone which is worthy of glory, for what are we but worms and unprofitable servants? Apart from his grace we would know nothing, and apart from his Son we are indeed nothing, but wicked, rebellious creatures. Praise God for salvation by his Son, Jesus Christ, and his blessed understand by illumination of his Holy Spirit. He alone is worthy of glory and worthy to be praised.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[5solas]

As the hymn proclaims, God's grace is indeed amazing. And it is his grace alone which is worthy of glory, for what are we but worms and unprofitable servants? Apart from his grace we would know nothing, and apart from his Son we are indeed nothing, but wicked, rebellious creatures. Praise God for salvation by his Son, Jesus Christ, and his blessed understand by illumination of his Holy Spirit. He alone is worthy of glory and worthy to be praised.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

AMEN:amen:

[orthedoxy]

When you guys say we don't have "Real free will". How can you claim to love God since the only way one loves is through free will?
This would make us like a robot since we are predetermined on what we are going to do?
Please explain, remember a will is not free unless you can do the opposite.

[Jon_]

When you guys say we don't have "Real free will". How can you claim to love God since the only way one loves is through free will?
Prove it.

This would make us like a robot since we are predetermined on what we are going to do?
Again, prove it.

Please explain, remember a will is not free unless you can do the opposite.
And, once more, prove it.

You are making all kinds of wild, unsubstantiated assumptions concerning love and will. There is simply no basis for assuming that love must be "freely willed" in order to be valid. Moreover, you are assuming that man is somehow "free" apart from God because he is able to do the opposite of what God commands. These are all highly erroneous assumptions and you cannot even begin to prove that they are true.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[orthedoxy]

Prove it.


Again, prove it.

Can you create a robot that can love you? If not please explain why not.

And, once more, prove it.

If God created us to build and to destroy, how is that any different then us creating a robot to build and destroying things?

You are making all kinds of wild, unsubstantiated assumptions concerning love and will. There is simply no basis for assuming that love must be "freely willed" in order to be valid. Moreover, you are assuming that man is somehow "free" apart from God because he is able to do the opposite of what God commands. These are all highly erroneous assumptions and you cannot even begin to prove that they are true.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Can you force a woman to marry you? Do you tell a woman you will marry me?
Or do you ask her will you marry me and if she loves you she will say yes?
Forced love is rape, how can you make one to love you without them choosing to love you?
It's erroneous to believe God created Hitler to torture people. If you say Hitler didn't have choice not to torture then you can't blame Hitler but God.
Please make sense of TULIP for me. This sound like it makes God not loving at all and is evil.

[Jon_]

Can you create a robot that can love you? If not please explain why not.
Robots are unvolitional souless beings that are programmed to respond to criteria and are completely without consciousness or responsibility for their actions. None of these things apply to human beings.

If God created us to build and to destroy, how is that any different then us creating a robot to build and destroying things?
More assumptions: this time that God created us to build and destroy.

Can you force a woman to marry you?
Happens all the time. And have you never heard of arranged marriages?

Do you tell a woman you will marry me?
Do I? No. Do some people? Yep. Of course, you have an ambiguous example here. How do you define marriage? (Because it's probably unbiblical.)

Or do you ask her will you marry me and if she loves you she will say yes?
Just because she loves me doesn't mean she'll marry me. She may love herself and her career more.

Forced love is rape,
No, forced sexual intercourse is rape. Quit trying to redefine terms so you can argue from outrage. And you can't force love. It's volitional.

how can you make one to love you without them choosing to love you?
Humans can't. But God can. How? Because he is omnipotent.

It's erroneous to believe God created Hitler to torture people.
It is erroneous to say that anything happens apart from the will of God.

If you say Hitler didn't have choice not to torture then you can't blame Hitler but God.
When did I say Hitler didn't have a choice? Moreover, how is it implied that Hitler is somehow not responsible for what he did?

Please make sense of TULIP for me.
You must first have sense to find things sensible.

This sound like it makes God not loving at all and is evil.
That's because you don't understand it.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Elderone]

orthedoxy

The subject of free-will is not an easy one. At this (http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/freewill.html)site are many articles by various authors explaning it. Give some of them a read and ask God for insight.

[orthedoxy]

Robots are unvolitional souless beings that are programmed to respond to criteria and are completely without consciousness or responsibility for their actions. None of these things apply to human beings.

Your view makes it apply to humans


More assumptions: this time that God created us to build and destroy.

Do you believe all acts are ordained by God? Could a person not commit an action that he was preordain to do?
Please explain I’m just trying to understand your view.



Humans can't. But God can. How? Because he is omnipotent.

I would disagree with you God can’t lie he also can’t force love.


It is erroneous to say that anything happens apart from the will of God.

Did God want Hitler to torture people?
When did I say Hitler didn't have a choice? Moreover, how is it implied that Hitler is somehow not responsible for what he did?


Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?

[Jon_]

Your view makes it apply to humans
You now to presume to speak for me?

Do you believe all acts are ordained by God?
Yes.

Could a person not commit an action that he was preordain to do?
No.

Please explain I’m just trying to understand your view.
Please. You already know where I stand.

I would disagree with you God can’t lie he also can’t force love.
God does not lie because this is contradictory to his nature. He cannot lie because everything he says is truth. Because he is the sole source for moral value judgments, everything he does is righteous. Even if it happens to be different from how we think he should act. What we think and how we feel are inconsequential to God's abilities. He can do and does whatever he pleases. The reason he does not lie is because it does not please him to do so.

Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe. Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Yes.

Did God create Hitler to torture people?
Yes.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[5solas]

An interesting article (for all of it click here: source (http://www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/th/TH.h.Tchividjian.Edwards%20and%20Free%20Will.html))




....... A glancing at the title might lead some to think that Edwards and Luther differed. This is not so, essentially. The title illustrates Edwards’ thesis that we are free to choose that which we most desire. The truth, though, according to Edwards, is that because by nature we are dead in our trespasses and sins, we desire only sin. Our natural inclination is not toward righteousness, but toward sin. All mankind, according to Edwards, are “by nature in a state of total ruin, both with respect to the moral evil of which they are the subjects, and the afflictive evil to which they are exposed, the one as the consequence and punishment of the other”.

According to Edwards, proof of original sin is easily demonstrated. Aside from the supernatural biblical proof found in Romans 1, 3, 5 and Ephesians 2, there is plenty of natural proof as well: All people sin! All of human history testifies to this. And we have more proof today, following two World Wars and one Cold War, than Edwards had in his day. Because we are free to choose that which we most desire, and because what we most desire is to destroy ourselves, it is our freedom that turns out to be our greatest enemy........

[Imblessed]

Orthodoxy,

Haven't we been through this before with you? (forgive me if it was someone else)

You keep bringing up extreme situations to prove your theory that our view of God is that He is mean and cruel. You go on and on throwing out theories and situations that just cannot be used to justify your offense at the thought that God is in Total Control. Not just a little in control, but Totally and Truly.

I'm sorry that it offends you to think that God may have created people that are going to Hell. But honestly, even if your view of "free will" is right, He's STILL creating people to go to Hell. It doesn't change anything, no matter how you try to twist it.

We do not have the "free will" to accept God, unless He gives it to us. It's proven over and over in the bible. Pelegius was condemned as a heretic for saying we had a choice to be good, and the ability. (3 times I think. ) Arminianism is just a newer version of Pelegianism. Both deny Total Depravity. Both views have been condemmed.

that is not to say we are robots, or puppets. Honestly now, do you really think any of us here in this discussion feel like robots or puppets? Come on, we make choices every day, we live, love, cry, regret, rejoice, dispair, question, recieve, understand, screw up, pray, etc etc every day. We just also understand that God is in control, and we know we have been given a precious gift, and we do our best to walk the walk He wants for us, knowing that everyday, we do something wrong. But we also know that God is growing us, maturing us, sanctifying us, everyday and in every way. And that there is a reason that God allows things to happen; although we may not know or understand that reason in our lifetime, God causes good through every bad act.

I may have gotten off on to a tangent about the soveriegnity of God, but I feel it applies to the whole "free-will" issue. Our will is "free" right up until it bumps into God's Will. No amount of fighting, scenerio building, or justification will change that.

[Jon_]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Imblessed again.
:cry:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Rick Otto]

You said,
"Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?"

I notice you answer some questions w/a question, so maybe you can afford me the same liberty and 'get' the answer thereby:

Did God want His only begotten Son to suffer & die?
Did God create Roman Emperors & soldiers to carry out His prophecies in Genesis?

Are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you remember about God putting a lying spirit in the mouths of prophets in the book of Kings?
1Ki 22:22 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ki+22:22&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ki+22:23&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Does this make God evil, or mean?
I think not.
I believe you might be judging God by your own, human standards.
You might value every human soul equaly, but God obviously does not.
You might value human will & hold it sacred, beyond the jurisdiction of its very creator.
Imagine yourself fashioning a doll out of clay. Now imagine the clay flippin' you off & sayin' I got plans, I'm outta here!
Unless you (the creator) predestined that doll to do that, it is just gonna sit there and be clay.
His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

[Imblessed]

His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

amen to that otto!!!!

[BBAS 64]

You said,
"Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?"

I notice you answer some questions w/a question, so maybe you can afford me the same liberty and 'get' the answer thereby:

Did God want His only begotten Son to suffer & die?
Did God create Roman Emperors & soldiers to carry out His prophecies in Genesis?

Are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you remember about God putting a lying spirit in the mouths of prophets in the book of Kings?
1Ki 22:22 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ki+22:22&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ki+22:23&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Does this make God evil, or mean?
I think not.
I believe you might be judging God by your own, human standards.
You might value every human soul equaly, but God obviously does not.
You might value human will & hold it sacred, beyond the jurisdiction of its very creator.
Imagine yourself fashioning a doll out of clay. Now imagine the clay flippin' you off & sayin' I got plans, I'm outta here!
Unless you (the creator) predestined that doll to do that, it is just gonna sit there and be clay.
His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

Good Day, Rick Otto

You mean he did not ask him to kindly dismount... you must belive in a non- loving, mean sprited, child eater god.. I could never serve a god like that :P ^_^ :P

Peace to u,

Bill

[5solas]

:cry:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

this is off topic:

brother, I did it for you in your name :)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1926539-question-about-tulip.html

back to topic

(and of course I would not have done it if I did not agree.....) ;)

[Jon_]

this is off topic:

brother, I did it for you in your name :)
http://www.christianforums.com/t1926539-question-about-tulip.html

back to topic

(and of course I would not have done it if I did not agree.....) ;)
For that you get rep and a :hug: !

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Imblessed]

5Solas and Jon,

both of you are too kind! Thanks!

[Jon_]

5Solas and Jon,

both of you are too kind! Thanks!
:hug: for you too, Windi!!

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[orthedoxy]

Jon
Would you consider Hitler to be evil for what he did? If so why would you since he was only doing Gods will?
Also how is that different then a robot being programmed to do certain thing?
How can one blame Hitler for being evil?

[orthedoxy]

You said,
"Please answer these questions so I can understand what you believe.
Did God want Hitler to torture people?
Did God create Hitler to torture people?"

I notice you answer some questions w/a question, so maybe you can afford me the same liberty and 'get' the answer thereby:

Did God want His only begotten Son to suffer & die?
Did God create Roman Emperors & soldiers to carry out His prophecies in Genesis?

Are you familiar with Isaiah 45:7?
7: I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Do you remember about God putting a lying spirit in the mouths of prophets in the book of Kings?
1Ki 22:22 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ki+22:22&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Ki 22:23 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1ki+22:23&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Does this make God evil, or mean?
I think not.
I believe you might be judging God by your own, human standards.
You might value every human soul equaly, but God obviously does not.
You might value human will & hold it sacred, beyond the jurisdiction of its very creator.
Imagine yourself fashioning a doll out of clay. Now imagine the clay flippin' you off & sayin' I got plans, I'm outta here!
Unless you (the creator) predestined that doll to do that, it is just gonna sit there and be clay.
His thoughts & ways are above ours. Well enough to trust His intentions.
Consider His instructions to Joshua at Jericho. Rahab made it out, but how much preachin' & teachin' did he offer the 'free wills' of the rest?
He chose Isreal, He didn't offer Isreal the option of being chosen or not.
There is far more evidence of mankind's will being subject God, than there is of it being free of God's determined destiny. Jesus didn't knock on the door of Paul's heart & plead to be received. He knocked him off his horse & blinded him!

Yo Ricky

I'm only trying to understand The Reformed view. Is there anything wrong with that?
Why don't you ask these questions in the OBOB? They will give you good respond.
The way I see it is that you believe God is a liar and a murderer. You even quote verses to prove it.
I want to answer your questions but I don’t want to turn this into a debate.

[Beoga]

Jon
Would you consider Hitler to be evil for what he did? If so why would you since he was only doing Gods will?
Also how is that different then a robot being programmed to do certain thing?
How can one blame Hitler for being evil?

I think this verse sums up the Reformed view on this topic very well:

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

I don't know if you have ever heard of the idea of compatibilism, but if you haven't, I am sure someone more knowledgable than I who understands the idea could explain it to you.

Brian

[Rick Otto]

I understand you're investigating the Reform view thanks, but
I'm not sure why you'd think I see anything wrong with that.:doh:
Sounds like maybe I've offended you in some way. Sorry about that.:sigh:
I wasn't realy looking for answers to my questions, they were rhetorical.
Mr. O, my point was not make a God a liar & a murderer, but to show how He can use evil for good, and how ridiculous it is for us to question His motives gauging His actions with a human value system.

If I were contentious & provocative, I might say you make God out to be a clairvoyant but helpless bungler, with an out of control creation, leaving individual salvation in the hands of lumps of clay.:eek:

I will assume your best intentions and check out the forum you mention.:bow:

[Jon_]

Would you consider Hitler to be evil for what he did?
Yes.

If so why would you since he was only doing Gods will?
Because he was still morally responsible.

Also how is that different then a robot being programmed to do certain thing?
Because God holds humans accountable.

How can one blame Hitler for being evil?
Because he was.

Look, you haven't even the basis for an argument here. Instead of continuing under this "guise" of "trying to understand Reformed Theology," why don't you bugger off? You can't accept the Lord's truth because he has purposed to you to folly. I am only too thankful he has not blinded my eyes in the same way that he obviously has yours.

Or better yet, start a thread in the Philosophy forum and make your case there. I would be more than happy to show you how wrong you are, Lord willing. If you refuse my challenge, then kindly leave and quit bothering us with your inane questions and false presumptions.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Rick Otto]

Why did he accuse ME of making God out to be a liar?
Why didn't he call God a liar & murderer, himself?
All I did was show him Isaiah 45:7 & 1Kings22:22-3.
I didn't WRITE them.
Maybe he has his glasses on backwards.:D

I'll watch the Philo Forum, Jon.
I'm sure he's loadin' his clips as we speak^_^ .

[Rick Otto]

I think a common problem is that people can't imagine God creating evil.
Look... He obviously thinks Hitler was evil, but he must not think God created him, or that his human will can defy God's purpose. As if all the Roman soldiers at the crucifixition suddenly stopped, looked at each other, & said,"WHAT were we thinking?!" and walked away, leavin' Jesus no way to fulfill His Father's prophecy.

Hitler did God's will for him to be an evil Hitler. How would that make Hitler "not evil"?

Cognitive Dissonance. Right in front of him, but becomes invisible between the eyes & the brain. Go figure.

[5solas]

Why did he accuse ME of making God out to be a liar?
Why didn't he call God a liar & murderer, himself?
All I did was show him Isaiah 45:7 & 1Kings22:22-3.
I didn't WRITE them.
Maybe he has his glasses on backwards.

you are right :thumbsup: - it just reminds me of

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

:wave:

[Beoga]

Committing any act of Evil is a CHOICE made by the individual according to that persons own free will, God never forces any person to do anything, that is the most ridiculous concept ever conceived.

I believe it is a very disgusting slanderous evil act to blame God for the wickedness in Evil MENS hearts, and it is even more so for those who profess to be Christians, who profess they love Jesus to do so.

I do not now, and I will never accept the lie of election, you become the elect WHEN you choose, according to your own free will, to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, AND God determined that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere could, if so choose, become on of the elect.

IF Calvins theory of election was in fact a sound Biblical truth thgen there would certainly be a list of names of those whgo are the elect somewhere in the word of God, IF there is not, then there is certainly a list of specific Scriptural guidelines given in the word of God which would specifically show how anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere CAN be saved.

The Scripture verses you used to back up these claims were very convincing :thumbsup:!


The Bible clearly and definitely states that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL be saved, Whosoever means whosoever, it does NOT mean some-soever, ALL means ALL, not a few.

You will not find a Reformed Christian who disagrees with this!

[Jon_]

Committing any act of Evil is a CHOICE made by the individual according to that persons own free will, God never forces any person to do anything, that is the most ridiculous concept ever conceived.

I believe it is a very disgusting slanderous evil act to blame God for the wickedness in Evil MENS hearts, and it is even more so for those who profess to be Christians, who profess they love Jesus to do so.

I do not now, and I will never accept the lie of election, you become the elect WHEN you choose, according to your own free will, to accept Jesus Christ as your savior, AND God determined that anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere could, if so choose, become on of the elect.

IF Calvins theory of election was in fact a sound Biblical truth thgen there would certainly be a list of names of those whgo are the elect somewhere in the word of God, IF there is not, then there is certainly a list of specific Scriptural guidelines given in the word of God which would specifically show how anyone, and everyone, anywhere and everywhere CAN be saved.

The Bible clearly and definitely states that whosoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL be saved, Whosoever means whosoever, it does NOT mean some-soever, ALL means ALL, not a few.
You haven't even the beginnings of a clue about that which we're discussing.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Rick Otto]

"IF Calvins theory of election was in fact a sound Biblical truth thgen there would certainly be a list of names of those whgo are the elect somewhere in the word of God,..."



>There is a list, Mike. In fact there are so many names on it, it filled a whole book. It's called "The Lamb's Book of life".
For your enjoyment:
Php 4:3 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=php+4:3&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Re 3:5 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+3:5&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 13:8 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+13:8&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Re 20:12 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+20:12&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Re 20:15 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+20:15&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Re 21:27 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=re+21:27&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) -And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[Beoga]

Hey I know I'm stupid......


I never said that. Did you come in here to have a God honoring discussion or did you come in here to spew your hate? You have a lot of misconceptions about what Calvinism teaches but that doesn't make you stupid. What would make you stupid is if you chose to remain and your misconceptions and not try and understand what we proclaim, especially when we try and explain it (which I would be willing to do).

[BBAS 64]

[QUOTE[ edited post .[/QUOTE]

Good Day, PenacostalEvan

I am not sure if there is a vaild question in this post, there surly is some wild unfounded assertions,

"God never forces ".. Assumes that a man can even start to withhold the hand of God.

Explain then,

Gen 20:6 Then God said to him in the dream, "Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her.

Define elect

Mat 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


eklektos

Thayer Definition:

1) picked out, chosen

1a) chosen by God

1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ

And a greek source please.

I am sure you are aware there is no single greek word for "whosoever" but is a verbal construction, so your point is flawed.

Whosoever shall call..
all the ones "doing" calling

Peace to u,

Bill

[rnmomof7]

closed for mod review

[rnmomof7]

I have cleaned the thread up a bit.

Please continue with your discussion .
BUT there is no debating doctrine here.

You may discuss and question if you like. But you may not use the hospitality of this forum to insult its members

Thanks

[Jon_]

I only wish to say this, and then never post here again.

I apologize to everyone for the things I said, and the way I offended you all, and I sincerely mean all of you.

I must in all honesty say that I still do not agree with your doctrine and I never will.

My Great Grandfather was a Baptist Pastor, My Grandfather was a Baptist Deacon (Chairman of the Presbytery board for the District association of Baptist churches for his Oklahoma District for over 30 years) And my Dad was a Baptist Pastor, so I was raised up a Hardshell Baptist.

BUT then I began to study the entire word of God for myself, and I found that the things I was taught growing up were NOT Biblically sound.

BUT this does NOT make me, or you, any less Born Again Christians, and should NOT cause us to be enemies, I am the one who has been wrong in this respect, I made you to be my enemies, and I am very sorry for allowing the devil to cause me to feel that way about you all.

I do not for even one second believe, or think that Baptists are bad people, or that you are NOT saved, I do not believe that only certain can be saved, and all the rest have no hope of ever having an equal opportunity of receiving the same assurance of salvation that anyone can have.

I came to a point in my own life where I had no where else to turn except to God, I actually came to a point, in May 1990, where I planned to kill my wife, daughter, son, and myself!

I have been there (SIN) I have done that (Very Bad sin, and I truly bought the T-Shirt (Very, Very, VERY Bad sin) I have truly done all of it, the ONE, and only sin I know for sure that I have never committed, is Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost, all other sins, I have committed, and all of these sins I know God has forgiven.

Sometimes Though I have a very very hard time forgiving myself, satan constantly brings up the things of my past, and I feel such a great overwhelming sorrow and greif in my heart for these things, that I begin to hate myself all over again.

I know there are certain people here who have very bad feelings about me, and I don't blame them in the least, those feelings are well warranted seeing as I have done some awful things in the recent past to them, BUT I do apologize to you, and you know very well who you are, I do not ask your forgivenesss, I know you can't forgive me, and I understand why you feel that way, I wish you would though because it will be to your own benefit, not mine.

Anyway, I didn't post this to offend anyone, just to apologize.

If you don't mind please pray for me, it's really hard for me... :(
You are forgiven, brother. And I will definitely pray for you. :prayer:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[oworm]

I know there are certain people here who have very bad feelings about me,

I think i can safely speak for everyone here and state that there is probably no one here who is harbouring bad feeling toward you


I know you can't forgive me, and I understand why you feel that way, I wish you would though because it will be to your own benefit, not mine.

On the contrary! We can and will forgive you and it will be to your benefit because God forgives you too! If you are a Christian then we consider you a brother in the Lord and a partaker in all the blessings heaven has to offer without distinction and in spite of theological position.:)

[5solas]

I know for a fact that there is at least ONE person.....

As I said there is ONE person who cannot forgive me.

and this person is certainly not me - though I was the person who reported this thread to the admin - but this was not because I wanted to offend you.

I am glad that we can talk now in a civilized manner :wave:

[5solas]

I long for that day when the body of Christ will come into perfect unity when we will all agree with GODS word, and stop fighting over MENS denominational opinions, and I include my own denominations opinions in that as well, NONE of us are above reproach, NONE of us are absolutely correct.

The Body of Christ is NOT whole, it has been mutilated by denominational differences, there is NO unity in the entire Body of Christ, churches may think they have unity, BUT that is a lie, until the entire body of Christ comes together as one, in absolute unwavering agreement, there IS no TRUE Spiritual unity in any church.

That is a very sad fact....:(

I can perfectly understand you but I do not agree. I think that all true Christians ARE united in ONE Body - the body of Christ, His church. Everyone grafted in is part of it.

The spiritual body is perfectly united by/in Christ.

[Jon_]

I am very well aware that it is NOT you. AND I also know you had no intent to offend me.

I will NOT be discussing anything in this thread however because I cannot agree.

I long for that day when the body of Christ will come into perfect unity when we will all agree with GODS word, and stop fighting over MENS denominational opinions, and I include my own denominations opinions in that as well, NONE of us are above reproach, NONE of us are absolutely correct.

The Body of Christ is NOT whole, it has been mutilated by denominational differences, there is NO unity in the entire Body of Christ, churches may think they have unity, BUT that is a lie, until the entire body of Christ comes together as one, in absolute unwavering agreement, there IS no TRUE Spiritual unity in any church.

That is a very sad fact....:(
As soon as the whole body of Christ accepts the truth of Reformed doctrine, we will have the unity in truth that we desire. :)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[BBAS 64]

I know for a fact that there is at least ONE person.




As I said there is ONE person who cannot forgive me.

Good Day, PE

I forgive ya. :hug:

Bill

[BBAS 64]

As soon as the whole body of Christ accepts the truth of Reformed doctrine, we will have the unity in truth that we desire. :)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Good Day, Jon

Did CH say some thing to the effect "we will all be Calvinist in Glory" or was that CCWOODY? :scratch:

Peace to u,

Bill

[Jon_]

I must honestly state that I am in very firm, unwavering Disagreement with that statement.

I Pray very fervently that that NEVER happens.

As Christians, we MUST come into a place of true unity in regards to our beliefs in, acceptance of, and application of ALL of Gods word to our lives, NOT parts of, parts of, Gods word.

IF we are to follow after a pattern of reformation then let us ALL truly be reformed BACK to a Complete, unwavering absolute submssion of our lives to God, NOT a partial one.... :)
I agree. Which is why I would like to see the humanistic doctrine of free will forever demolished. :thumbsup:

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

Good Day, Jon

Did CH say some thing to the effect "we will all be Calvinist in Glory" or was that CCWOODY? :scratch:

Peace to u,

Bill
C. H. Spurgeon? I believe he said something to the effect of "Calvinism is simply another name for the Gospel," or something like that. I am not sure if Woody said something to the same effect. I wouldn't be surprised. :)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

It is NOT HUMANISTIC, it is an absolutely sound BIBLICAL truth, BUT I have been instructed by The Holy Ghost ONLY to PRAY for those who choose, according to their own FREE WILL, to reject this BIBLICAL truth, and say nothing else.

God bless you......:thumbsup:
The Holy Ghost told you not to correct those who teach non-Scriptural doctrine?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[oworm]

@Pentecostalevangelist

Ok heres the test. For the next 24hr period love the Lord your God with ALL your heart,ALL your soul and ALL your mind.

If you have free will then you should be able to do that in all its fullness. You do know that in doing that you will need to be completely free of sin and commit not one sin in this 24hr period.
If you really have free will to choose then you should be able to choose to commit no sin in this period and fulfil the command.
Your time starts from when you see this post. Good luck!

[5solas]

If you really have free will to choose then you should be able to choose to commit no sin in this period and fulfil the command.
Your time starts from when you see this post. Good luck!

a very good idea - yeah



Christian Forums MessageYou must spread some Reputation around before giving it to oworm again.

:(

[BBAS 64]

He instructed me NOT to speak to those who will NOT heed.

I have seen MANY cases where in this same discussion, VALID Biblical evidence to prove your theory wrong has been presented, and in EVERY instance, the same thing always happened.

Those individuals in the Calvinsitic camp ALWAYS denied that any Biblical evidence of any kind was ever presented, when that evidence was right there in the thread for all to clearly see!

And in may cases (NOT ALL) some (CALVINISTS) resorted to posting extremely vile replies to their counterparts, posting very insulting remarks.

The bottom line is, One who truly has a teachable Spirit WILL be willing to acknowledge ANY Biblical evidence that in anyway refutes their doctrine.

I have never once seen even ONE Calvinist who was ever willing to do this.

I have read your evidence, and in SOME areas I do agree with you, BUT there are MANY valid Biblical evidences which altogether prove many parts of your doctrine to be false, especially the doctrine of exclusive select election.

Good day, PE

You do not understand the sound Gospel


The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon




And what is the heresy of Arminianism but the addition of something to the work of the Redeemer? Every heresy, if brought to the touchstone, will discover itself here. I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what nowadays is called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having once believed in Jesus. Such a gospel I abhor.

PE if you have a question please ask we will usescripture to answer it.

Re, Election

Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

eklektos

Thayer Definition:

1) picked out, chosen

1a) chosen by God

1a1) to obtain salvation through Christ

1a1a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God

1a2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable

1a3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence

ALT:


Mat 24:31 "And He will send out His angels with [the] 'sound of a loud trumpet-blast,' and 'they will gather together' His chosen ones [or, elect] from the four winds, from [the] farthest limits of [the] heavens to [the other] farthest limits of them. [Exod 19:16; Deut 30:4]


That is a Biblical view of election , what is yours post scriptue please, and deal with the verse I posted.

Peace to u,

Bill

[Jon_]

He instructed me NOT to speak to those who will NOT heed.

I have seen MANY cases where in this same discussion, VALID Biblical evidence to prove your theory wrong has been presented, and in EVERY instance, the same thing always happened.

Those individuals in the Calvinsitic camp ALWAYS denied that any Biblical evidence of any kind was ever presented, when that evidence was right there in the thread for all to clearly see!

And in may cases (NOT ALL) some (CALVINISTS) resorted to posting extremely vile replies to their counterparts, posting very insulting remarks.

The bottom line is, One who truly has a teachable Spirit WILL be willing to acknowledge ANY Biblical evidence that in anyway refutes their doctrine.

I have never once seen even ONE Calvinist who was ever willing to do this.

I have read your evidence, and in SOME areas I do agree with you, BUT there are MANY valid Biblical evidences which altogether prove many parts of your doctrine to be false, especially the doctrine of exclusive select election.
IT is positively ANNOYING when you randomly CAPTIALIZE words in the MIDDLE of your sentences. :P

I would really like to see some of this valid evidence you claim to have. I don't believe you have even quoted a single Scripture since you came rampaging into our forum.

Put up or shut up, as they say.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[oworm]

He instructed me NOT to speak to those who will NOT heed.
How did He do this?

I have seen MANY cases where in this same discussion, VALID Biblical evidence to prove your theory wrong has been presented, and in EVERY instance, the same thing always happened.


Those individuals in the Calvinsitic camp ALWAYS denied that any Biblical evidence of any kind was ever presented, when that evidence was right there in the thread for all to clearly see!

For my benefit could you show me the valid biblical evidence that refutes my Reformed beliefs?



The bottom line is, One who truly has a teachable Spirit WILL be willing to acknowledge ANY Biblical evidence that in anyway refutes their doctrine.
Ok,but this is a double edged sword that cuts both ways.

I have never once seen even ONE Calvinist who was ever willing to do this.
the one composing this post is willing:)

I have read your evidence, and in SOME areas I do agree with you,
what exactly do you agree with?
BUT there are MANY valid Biblical evidences which altogether prove many parts of your doctrine to be false,
again i ask that you be pleased to show me?
especially the doctrine of exclusive select election.
How then do you read the following scripture texts?

EPH 1:3-5 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-

EPH 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,................

From the derogatory terms you use of Calvinists you seem to imply that we think of ourselves as some kind of elite and exclusive band who think of ourelves in an elevated position. No true Calvinist thinks of himself in this way atall. A proper understanding of the doctrines of Gods grace shows us that there is absolutely nothing in us that would draw us to God outside of Gods eternal decree in salvation. You yourself have reffered to God as Sovereign. If He is infact sovereign then that means that he is infact Lord over all his creation and works out everything in accordance with His will. If God does not work out EVERYTHING in accordance with his will then He cannot be God.
If all things are not subject to Him then that makes Him a God who reacts to circumstances and human decisions.This implies that God is infact limited and if he is limited then he simply cannot be Sovereign!
Now i know it's a tough pill to swallow but the truth of scripture teaches us that the whole human race is under the wrath of God except those that he calls and causes to be born again by His Spirit: read carefully the following from Pauls letter to the Romans: I have highlighted in bold italics the parts you may wish to ponder:

RO 9:16-21 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?


Texts such as this should make you want to fall to the ground and cry to God in apprectiation that he has had mercy on your soul apart from anything you think you could do to obtain it. There is absolutely nothing in you that desires God except what He put there. Its actually the height of blashemous pride to think that there is anything in us that God respond to outside of his self revelation of Himself!
Any desire we have for God and any decision we make to come to Him was planted in us by his gracious and merciful kindness. That is why Paul said in Romans:3:11 "there is no one who understands,no one who seeks God."

[oworm]

I will pray for you.....:wave:

Thankyou...thats very kind of you.

Could you maybe answer my questions and respond to my comments?

[BBAS 64]

You First!


Thus far all you, or any other calvinist have ever presented are nothing more than the lying interpretations of very inadequate small portions of some very small parts of Gods word.

GOD said, the ONLY sound doctrine is that doctrine which is based on ALL of Gods word
(2nd Timothy 3:16)

Calvins lies are NOT based on an adequate use of ALL of the word of God, never has been!

Have you not ever read 2nd Timothy 3:16?

OR do you as all other calvinists deny it's very existense?

NO wait, of course, to you this scripture does not apply, as does 99% of the word of God!

Now then IF you want me to consider accepting your doctrine as a sound Biblical doctrine then USE all of Gods word to support it, you and every other calvinist, here, and in every other Christian message board I have ever been a member of, have NEVER ONCE done that!

I, and many others like myself, have MANY times, and each and every tiome we have people like you have denied the presentation of any Biblical evidence we gave, so YOU put up or shut up.....

BTW I forgive you.....:wave:






Good day,

I will remind you you are a guest on this fourm, this is a place for reformed believers try to be a "respecting " guest.

GOD said, the ONLY sound doctrine is that doctrine which is based on ALL of Gods word
(2nd Timothy 3:16]

Kind of funny how you have posted no Scripture or interacted with any I have posted... one does start to wonder :scratch:

By the way that is a bad translation of the greek.

2Ti 3:16 pasa grafh qeopneustov kai wfelimov prov didaskalian prov aelegmon tsbelegxon prov epanorqwsin prov paideian thn en dikaiosunh

On second thought REALLY BAD.:eek:

Peace to u,

Bill

[BBAS 64]

I choose to believe all of Gods word, not some of it.......

Good Day, PE

Provide you definition of the term Elect as used in Scripture also provide the greek source..

Peace to u,

Bill

[Beoga]

Now then IF you want me to consider accepting your doctrine as a sound Biblical doctrine then USE all of Gods word to support it, you and every other calvinist, here, and in every other Christian message board I have ever been a member of, have NEVER ONCE done that!
Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
Gen 1:7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
Gen 1:10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so.
Gen 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,
Gen 1:15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made the two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night--and the stars.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
Gen 1:18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens."
Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
Gen 1:23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Am I on the right track because I have all afternoon, I could continue?

[BBAS 64]

Gen 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.
Gen 1:6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters."
Gen 1:7 And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so.
Gen 1:8 And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.
Gen 1:9 And God said, "Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear." And it was so.
Gen 1:10 God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:11 And God said, "Let the earth sprout vegetation, plants yielding seed, and fruit trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind, on the earth." And it was so.
Gen 1:12 The earth brought forth vegetation, plants yielding seed according to their own kinds, and trees bearing fruit in which is their seed, each according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:13 And there was evening and there was morning, the third day.
Gen 1:14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night. And let them be for signs and for seasons, and for days and years,
Gen 1:15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth." And it was so.
Gen 1:16 And God made the two great lights--the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night--and the stars.
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light on the earth,
Gen 1:18 to rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:19 And there was evening and there was morning, the fourth day.
Gen 1:20 And God said, "Let the waters swarm with swarms of living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the expanse of the heavens."
Gen 1:21 So God created the great sea creatures and every living creature that moves, with which the waters swarm, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters in the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth."
Gen 1:23 And there was evening and there was morning, the fifth day.
Gen 1:24 And God said, "Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds--livestock and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds." And it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds and the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that creeps on the ground according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them. And God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Gen 1:29 And God said, "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food.
Gen 1:30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food." And it was so.
Gen 1:31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.

Am I on the right track because I have all afternoon, I could continue?

Good Day, LA

That is because you do not sleep.. ^_^

Contuine when you get to...

Gen 20:6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

PE will dodge the implications..

Peace to u,

Bill

[oworm]

Pentecostalevangelist.
it is very clear that you have chosen to come to our forum in an attitude of derisiveness. may i remind you in all humility that this kind of attitude is not in keeping with the temper of a Christian brother. You are clearly not interested in learning anything about reformed theology and have no intentiomn of carrying on a reasoned argument. it might be better for all that you not post in this forum again. If you insist on coming here and maintaining your current attitude i will have no choice but to report you to the admin which will put you in danger of being warned and possibly disciplined for your uncouth remarks!
As i assume from your alias you are a pentecostal. Can i kindly direct you to your own fellowship forum where you will find brethren who may share your denominational beliefs. i have provided a link below to the forum for your convenience:
http://www.christianforums.com/f122-spirit-filled-pentecostal-charismatic.html

[Beoga]

IF you would sincerely apply ALL of Gods word to your life, you would repent, and reject calvins lies, BUT you know, I know and most especially God knows, that will never happen...... :wave:

Why, cause God has not predestined for it to occur?
I mean, if I have a free will, then sufficient amount of Scriptures should change my mind, but I guess you are right, that will never happen because no one (meaning you) will provide me with those Scriptures to change my mind.

[oworm]

IF you would sincerely apply ALL of Gods word to your life, you would repent, and reject calvins lies, BUT you know, I know and most especially God knows, that will never happen...... :wave:

The implications of this post are reprehensible.

[oworm]

Goodbye folks, I'll definitely be praying for all of you to be delivered from the bondage of deception you are all so deeply bound up in, BUT then YOU have to want to be free yourself, you have to determined, according to your own free will, that you will be free, and then YOU have to reject the lie you have been deceived by, repent, and be free! :wave:
Goodbye and God bless you

[Beoga]

Good Day, LA

That is because you do not sleep.. ^_^



Good day bbas :wave:

I think you may have a point here.

[Beoga]

Goodbye folks, I'll definitely be praying for all of you to be delivered from the bondage of deception you are all so deeply bound up in, BUT then YOU have to want to be free yourself, you have to determined, according to your own free will, that you will be free, and then YOU have to reject the lie you have been deceived by, repent, and be free! :wave:

How can we do this unless someone shows us by Scripture the error of our ways?

[BBAS 64]

Goodbye folks, I'll definitely be praying for all of you to be delivered from the bondage of deception you are all so deeply bound up in, BUT then YOU have to want to be free yourself, you have to determined, according to your own free will, that you will be free, and then YOU have to reject the lie you have been deceived by, repent, and be free! :wave:


Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

My free will is of no use to my bondage.. nor is it to you, "if" he sets you free then you are free "if" his does not ... well you get the point.


God bless and good bye,

Bill

[PentecostalEvangelist]

Folks, no matter what I say, I will always be a violation of forum rules......

[Imblessed]

Folks, no matter what I say, I will always be a violation of forum rules......

You know, it MIGHT help if you would stop putting words in our mouths, telling us what we are going to do(and not do) and start actually putting forth this "evidence" you have that proves us wrong.

You've been going on and on(and on...) about how you have shown all this scriptural evidence proving "us" utterly wrong and how "we" have disregarded it and how "we" are saying you are not christian, and "we" are being mean and hateful, and how "we" all hate you.........

yet I haven't seen even ONE bit of scripture and the only one being mean and hateful in here is you.

What do you want from us? Do you want to show us why you think we are wrong? Would you like to have a civil conversation about our differences? Do you even want to know why we believe as we do?

Or are you just interested in punishing this group because you've run into some rude Calvinists before? Honey, there are rude people everywhere. I sincerely apologize that you've run into some closeminded calvinists somewhere--but please do no take your anger out on us. We have done nothing but try and be civil, and believe me, you are NOT making that easy!

(Jon, sorry about the random all capped words.......:P )

[PentecostalEvangelist]

You know, it MIGHT help if you would stop putting words in our mouths, telling us what we are going to do(and not do) and start actually putting forth this "evidence" you have that proves us wrong.

You've been going on and on(and on...) about how you have shown all this scriptural evidence proving "us" utterly wrong and how "we" have disregarded it and how "we" are saying you are not christian, and "we" are being mean and hateful, and how "we" all hate you.........

yet I haven't seen even ONE bit of scripture and the only one being mean and hateful in here is you.

What do you want from us? Do you want to show us why you think we are wrong? Would you like to have a civil conversation about our differences? Do you even want to know why we believe as we do?

Or are you just interested in punishing this group because you've run into some rude Calvinists before? Honey, there are rude people everywhere. I sincerely apologize that you've run into some closeminded calvinists somewhere--but please do no take your anger out on us. We have done nothing but try and be civil, and believe me, you are NOT making that easy!

(Jon, sorry about the random all capped words.......:P )


You are absolutely right, I of course have always been wrong about everything, and of course none of you could ever be wrong about anything, I am very sorry for posting.....

[Jon_]

(Jon, sorry about the random all capped words.......:P )
I love ya, anyway, Windi! :)

Besides, it's cute when you do it. ;)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[PentecostalEvangelist]

I love ya, anyway, Windi! :)

Besides, it's cute when you do it. ;)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

:thumbsup:

[Imblessed]

You are absolutely right, I of course have always been wrong about everything, and of course none of you could ever be wrong about anything, I am very sorry for posting.....


:o I'm flabbergasted, honestly!!! I'm sorry, but I cannot talk to you. I do not hate you. I feel sorry for you....:sigh:

I pray that God will heal your pain......

[oworm]

You are absolutely right, I of course have always been wrong about everything, and of course none of you could ever be wrong about anything, I am very sorry for posting.....

My friend. I would suggest you have something akin to a persecution complex.
Even your veiled admission of breaking forum rules shows that. I think you are probably under the illusion that you were somehow "sent" here,(you hinted at that in an earlier post somewhere among the myriad of your rantings) If you feel you are on some kind of crusade for the truth as you see it don,t you think you would have been equipped to deal with the opposing views to your position?
I would suggest that you were in fact "brought" to our forum by divine providence.Have you considered that possibility? Have you considered that the Lord of Glory in his gracious mercy may in fact have displayed before your very eyes the truth of His gospel? Did ypou read "CCWoodys" post? Have you even looked at the passages of scripture cited and read them in their context.
I have reported some of your posts because i see yopu sliding down the slope of being banned from CF. I really wouldn't want that to happen to you

[PentecostalEvangelist]

Truth is Truth, and I am of another breed, some other wind blown, missown seed, not akin to reality, foreign to sanity, apart from reality, known by no one, myself more, and more.

I do not care if I die, if I live, or why, I see no road, no paths to walk, I hear no sounds, no voice that talks, I am not, and I am, and neither is an option which I strive to command.

No connection, no stage, only rejection, only rage, self despising, despising self, who is to say, who will prevail?

Not I, a voice cries from within, NOT I, Not I, Not I.

Who will win?

Not I, Not I, Not I, cries the voice from within, Not I, Not I, Not I.....

[Rick Otto]

an' he don' know it!:)

[PentecostalEvangelist]

he's a poet, an' he don' know it!:)

I am VERY aware that there is a lot that I do not know Otto. :wave:

[CoffeeSwirls]

This is about as intelligent as chatting with the ChrisBot...

http://www.christianforums.com/f111-chat-with-chrisbot.html

[JJB]

Truth is Truth, and I am of another breed, some other wind blown, missown seed, not akin to reality, foreign to sanity, apart from reality, known by no one, myself more, and more.

I do not care if I die, if I live, or why, I see no road, no paths to walk, I hear no sounds, no voice that talks, I am not, and I am, and neither is an option which I strive to command.

No connection, no stage, only rejection, only rage, self despising, despising self, who is to say, who will prevail?

Not I, a voice cries from within, NOT I, Not I, Not I.

Who will win?

Not I, Not I, Not I, cries the voice from within, Not I, Not I, Not I.....

You know, PE, your own poetry looks to me like double-mindedness spoken about in the bible. Christ is the one who holds our victory, our ability to prevail. We need not rely on ourselves or others. We can take His word for it.

Christ also is the one who knows us inside and out. He can search our hearts and know our deepest secrets, despair and depression. He is the only one we need to answer to, our Audience of One.

Lord, I pray you would heal PE's pain. He is valuable and loved. Bless PE today, Lord, with your presence and walk close with PE that he can see your beauty, Lord. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

[Rick Otto]

I think he just needs to lighten up & not take himself so seriously.

[PentecostalEvangelist]

I think he just needs to lighten up & not take himself so seriously.

I need to find soem TRUE Christian brothers and sisters in Christ, who will BE True Brothers and sisters in Christ.

I need to find TRUE freiends who will BE true friends, and NOT stab me in the back.

I need to find sincere CHRISTIAN people who ARE really sincere Christian People.

IN Christian forums I want to be a part of a place where the PEOPLE who claim to be Christians ARE really Christians, NOT people who when in a position of authority in the forums, abuse thier power to edit other peoples posts, replacing the original texts, posted by the original author, with text which violates forum rules, ultimately causing that member to be banned from the forums.

I am by no means perfect, and regardless of how long one has been a Christian, one will mess up from time to time, and no matter who you are the devil will torment you, he does me, ona regular basis, anyone who says he doesn't bother them is a liar.

I am NOT in any hurry to argue with anyone any longer, Rick, you and I have had our fairt share of battles in the past, I've been sarcastic and hateful many times, and you must admit that you have also been sarcastic and hateful many times as well, BUT none of it has ever been any good for either of us, so I am finished with it all.

When I say I want to die, I do, I do not want to be me anymore, I am fed up with me, I hate myself, I hate everything about me, BUT I love who Christ Jesus is in me, and who I ought to be in him, I want to die to myself completley, and live unto Christ Jesus, and be all that he has purposed me to be.

I do NOT want to argure doctrine with anyone anymore, I know what I believe is sound doctrine, and I know why I believe it is sound doctrine, I have a mandate from God to work out my OWN salvation with fear and trembling, it is up to everyone else to do the same for themselves.

I no longer attend church, all I have found there is more and more disagreement over doctrine.

In MY Own Honest Opinion whetehr or not someone is a calvinist, or an armenian, or a Baptist, or whatever, does not matter, what matters is are you CHRISTS?

Have you been born again?

Have you confessed your sins, and acknowledged Jesus as the crucified sacrifice for those sins,a dn confessed him as your risen Lord and Savior?

Have you been washed in the blood of Jesus?

Have you been Baptized by full immersion in water?

Now I am certain some will disagree with what I have said, BUT this is what I beleive, you have to go by what you believe.., and by the things you have been taught, BUT we must have our faith settled in the word of God, and what he teaches us first.

Otto, you have a blessed day in the Lord......:wave:

[PentecostalEvangelist]

You know, PE, your own poetry looks to me like double-mindedness spoken about in the bible. Christ is the one who holds our victory, our ability to prevail. We need not rely on ourselves or others. We can take His word for it.

Christ also is the one who knows us inside and out. He can search our hearts and know our deepest secrets, despair and depression. He is the only one we need to answer to, our Audience of One.

Lord, I pray you would heal PE's pain. He is valuable and loved. Bless PE today, Lord, with your presence and walk close with PE that he can see your beauty, Lord. In Jesus' name I pray, Amen.

My greatest pain is not from within, or from personal issues.

My greatest pain is from the condition of the modern day denominational body of Christ.

My heart is very deeply grieved by the complacency, and uncaring attitude of many modern day Christians, who have absolutely NO concern whatsoever for the lost, or for the huirting in the world, my greatest pain is over the absolute disregard in the body of Christ about sin in the body of Christ.

[oworm]

PE. You really need to find a church. There is no such thing as a desert island christian. Being a christian is being part of a body and part of a local fellowship.
Satan is described in scripture as a lion and lions loves to separate one member of a group and huint it down and devour it. You are in grave danger. There is no such thing as the perfect church or the perfect christian which is precisely why you need to be part of a group

[PentecostalEvangelist]

PE. You really need to find a church. There is no such thing as a desert island christian. Being a christian is being part of a body and part of a local fellowship.
Satan is described in scripture as a lion and lions loves to separate one member of a group and huint it down and devour it. You are in grave danger. There is no such thing as the perfect church or the perfect christian which is precisely why you need to be part of a group

I truly appreciate your concern, when I say I do not attend Church, I mean in the sense of one specific local body.

The Church my wife and I had been members of for the past 3 years recently disbanded when the building we were using for worship services was suddenly sold out from under us with very lttle prior notice of that sale.

Our Pastors were informed of the sale, and were asked to move out of the building with only a 14 day notice.

After much prayer, my wife and I felt that God was calling us into full time ministry and we left our home church to go around to some of our areas different non denominational, Pentecostal, Full Gospel, charismatic churches to introduce oursleves and the ministry God has called us into to the Pastors of those churches.

WE are also seeking God for direction about where we are to be, and under whose Spiritual covering HE wants us under.

So we are attending Church, at different churches, we are just NOT submitted to one specifrci Pastor of one specific local body of believers at this time, but when God shows us where he wants us, then we will make that personal commitment to that local Pastor, and to that local body of believers.

[JJB]

My greatest pain is not from within, or from personal issues.

My greatest pain is from the condition of the modern day denominational body of Christ.

My heart is very deeply grieved by the complacency, and uncaring attitude of many modern day Christians, who have absolutely NO concern whatsoever for the lost, or for the huirting in the world, my greatest pain is over the absolute disregard in the body of Christ about sin in the body of Christ.

Ok. I see, PE. Thanks for the clarification.

It is hard to see sin running rampant in the body of Christ. Many of us "moderns" are very selfish and m-tv minded (is what I call it). We live in a culture of materialism and I sometimes wonder if the younger a person is, the harder it is to see it and its devastating effects.

My heart, mission if you will, is for the lost. I pray for my own family members as well as friends and have been praying for years. The other place where my heart remains is with children. They are so spiritually open, but often we grown-ups get in their way with our busy schedules, agendas and lives.......anyway, enough of my soapboxing.....:preach:

I pray the Lord will lead you and your wife into how you can be used to change the body of Christ for His glory. We all need encouragement at times, don't we? I know I do. Sometimes all we can do is have an affect in our own arena of influence, and that is why God places each of us exactly where He wants us. :)