How do I respond?

[A-Bomb]

I was recently talking to a guy about evolution I didint want to post this in the evolution/creation forum because I am a growing Christian, and its easy for doubts to arise in me by reading there, so with this being "christian only" can you guys help?
here is what he said:

First, we do know the mechanism responsible for evolution.Read July 29 US News and world report.

Scientists found that by flipping a few genes, you can change a dragon fly into a regular fly.

Which leads me to my next point.

Macroevolution has been proven. Through DNA analysis we can trace evolution back 100s of generations and see how numerous small changes over time create new speices genus' and even families. Fossil records have shown step by step how dinosaurs developed wings and feathers and became birds and how wolf like animals in pakistan made the move to the ocean to become whales.

Bone structures tell a lot as well, and from them we easily see evolution at work.

Yes, evolution is a theory, but a theory that has been proven as fact.

Macroevolution and microevolution alike.




is this true?

[GraftMeIn]

A-Bomb,
The evolution creationism forum is a very tough forum for debating issues. I wouldn't advise anyone new to the faith, or trying to learn about God to participate in that forum, mostly because it is bound to cause you confusion.

As far as evolution goes, you have to be able to buy into the fact that life was a mere accident, that two non-life chemicals or something like that got together and accidently formed a life. A self replicating at that, then this accidental self replicating life somehow, replicated other forms of life due to mistakes, or more accidents.

Anyway I have yet to see anyone make anything evolve by merely changing it's enviroment little by little.

personaly I can't accept that life was an accident, and just happened by chance. I'll try and get back to you tomorrow with more on this subject, but for now I'm pretty tired and think it's time for me to retire from my computer, read my bible a bit and say a few prayers :)

Keep in mind there's also much proof found through archiology about the things the Bible says. Like Sodom and gomorah, they found an area by the dead sea, what they found there only serves to back up what the bible says about it, and how destruction took place, they also found balls of sulfur, something very rare. according to the bible they fell from the sky.

[A-Bomb]

hmmmmmmmmmmm, can anyone address what the guy said though

[Blessed-one]

well, as i understand it (forget the macro and micro thing) there're gaps in the fossil record and the surprising lack of "transition" fossil found don't add up either. If there were evolution and that it took many many of years to evolve, then there must be heaps of transition fossil, but nope!

genes are similar, yeah, but the genes of many things are similar, not just human and ape! human and other things for example (can't tell, coz i don't remember). I agree with one of the principles of evolution though, the survival of the fittest, but that principle never explains of how a .... monkey, can evolve into a human (well, they said that we and the apes have a common ancestor, and that common ancestor evolved into different animals of the similar... structure).

Scientists like throwing around the word "evolve" but can they prove evolution in a lab? in the histories?

I hope you can take GraftMeIn's advice. We can't possibly know everything on earth, it takes many many years and heaps of experience to become a professional, but even professionals argue among themselves on the same field.

[GraftMeIn]

A-Bomb remember that science basis it's so called facts on mathematical equations etc.... these facts are always changing. Blessed-One is right about scientists that they argue among themselves.

Here's a little info on hybridizing plants, and how it works, and why it should show us that plants were created, and didn't evolve.

Hybrids
We can cross pollinate plants, and get a new variety of a plant. a bloom that's a different color etc.... In order for cross pollination to work the plants have to be similar, pretty much in the same family of plants. Such as grasses cross pollinated with other grasses.

So we take two plants that are similar, cross pollinate them, collect the seed, plant the seed and a new variety of that plant is grown. the plant stays in the same family but is a new variety.

Now if we take the seed from the plant we just grew from cross pollination (the hybrid plant), and plant it, we will not get the same plant, instead the seed reverts back the parent, or even the grandparent plants.

Cross pollination can take place in the wild, but even then the seed from the hybrid or cross pollinated plant produces, isn't going to produce the same plant it came from, instead it will revert back to the original plants it came from.

So if a plant doesn't carry on those characteristics cross pollination brings about, by producing like seed, then the process of so called evolution is broken.

[A-Bomb]

can someone address the specific things the guy said to me though

[Sharky]

Sorry dude :). IF we did, you'd be more confused. It's a good idea to keep away from the subject until you're a stronger christian so you can understand more clearly later on otherwise its gonna hinder you badly.

[Ms.Babylon]

One thing to remember a-Bomb is you don't have to be a Creationist to be a Christian. There are many non-Creationist Christians out there. Please don't be afraid to study the subject and form your own opinions.
Remember, knowledge is power.
Good luck.

[GraftMeIn]

A-Bomb,
surely if they had a complete fossil record that proved evolution it would be all over the news, and no one would be questioning it.

I think they would need to verify what they mean by bone structure before I could comment on it.

The dinosaur with wings thing they found is actually mentioned in the bible as an unclean animal. the name of it got lost in translation but If I remember correct the hebrew name stood for both bird, and reptile. of course since I don't know or have a bible written in hebrew I can't say for sure this is true, but that's what I read somewhere. I'll see if I can find that article again.

[Iron Maiden]

God said he CREATED the man, if you believe the bible, you believe God created man, and God created him in his own image, so Man was created as is, I believe and not a group of cells.!

Can't comprehend it, but it isn't meant to be, just know that God created man in his image.

[ZiSunka]

Yes, evolution is a theory, but a theory that has been proven as fact.

By definition, it is impossible to prove a theory. Evolution, as defined as a shift in the gene pool of a particular population, has a lot of evidence to support it. But evolution, as defined as one species becoming another, or of new species generating out of older species, is NOT a proven fact. There is actually NO good evidence for this idea.

[A-Bomb]

but would it not be common sense to say that a huge gene pool shift would result in a new species?

[Blessed-one]

maybe, but HOW did it happen?

[GraftMeIn]

A-Bomb,
Something else to think about here is that even with the micro evolution, such as hyridization of plants. It takes intervention, even plants that are cross pollinated are done so by hand, and if you want that new variety of plant to grow again you must place the plants in a steril enviroment and keep pollinating plants by hand, or take cuttings from that plant. It's not going to continue on by accident. the new variety will never continue to grow on it's own and reproduce accordingly without us interfering with the natural proccess.

Look at the birds, How do you think they know to only breed with their own kind? A robin only breeds with another robin, a goldfinch with another goldfinch. How do they know when to migrate during the winter? It's God that guides them.

Some might say the birds learn from their parents when they should migrate and where they should migrate to. but when you realy think about it, that first pair would never have survived if going by that theory. They had to be guided some how, by their creator.

[ZiSunka]

Originally posted by A-Bomb
but would it not be common sense to say that a huge gene pool shift would result in a new species?

No.  Since no such thing has ever been known to happen, there is no way to apply "common sense" to it.  The recorded shifts in gene pools have never resulted in a new species, subspecies, race, phase or any other subdivision of species.  There have been some that resulted in new phenotypes, but never in a new species.

In viruses and bacteria , there have been major alterations in gene pools, because they have so few genes that any mutation is a big change in the genetic content, but even with viruses, mutations do not result in new species of viruses.  They result in new forms of the same species, but not a new species.

If a major shift in the gene pool does not create new species in something so simply as a population of bacteria, how could it have that effect in more genetically complex species.  Mutations happen one gene at a time.  How many major mutations would have to have survival advantages and how many offspring would have to be reproduced by the individual with that new gene to make a new species, reproductively separate and genetically distinct from all other members of the parent species.  The odds are more than astronomical that such a thing could ever happen.

And, if that is  not enough, when genes mutate, it always involves a LOSS of genetic information, not an addition of genetic information.  Mutant genes are LESS complex than natural genes.  So the idea of mutation being responsible for the creation of MORE COMPLEX individuals is laughable.

[Blessed-one]

Originally posted by lambslove
And, if that is  not enough, when genes mutate, it always involves a LOSS of genetic information, not an addition of genetic information.  Mutant genes are LESS complex than natural genes.  So the idea of mutation being responsible for the creation of MORE COMPLEX individuals is laughable.

absolutely! and most of the time, mutation comes with diseases and abnormalities.