Am I Obligated to Observe Torah? [Archive]

visionary

30th July 2005, 09:26 AM

Yes! When one says yes to Yeshua. He / She Gentile, was Grafted into what already existed. And they grew from there. It would be like being an Egyptian and hanging around the Hebrew homes on the night G-d took the entire first-born, so they could be “SAVED”. Then when the Hebrew’s went to receive the Torah, They [Gentiles] say. No thanks were saved we don’t need that other stuff. That’s Just for you Hebrew’s. We got saved and that’s all we need. Yes... excellent explanation... and if the gentile does that, they perish, for you cannot be saved if you do not walk in the path of the new life which is found in Torah.

Bon

30th July 2005, 09:59 AM

I agree....but try telling that to a "Christian".

"I am obligated to keep the Law of Yahweh"

They would be shocked and horrified that we are so blatantly legalistic.

How can it be explained to such people that they may see exactly what is meant by it....

Torah observance is expected from YHWH......but FAITH is all that is required through God's grace.

It's like a three-fold commitment.
BELIEVE
FAITH
OBEDIENCE

A Christian would agree in
"OBEDIENCE to God".....
but would balk at
"OBEDIENCE to the LAW of God".

Go figure?

I don't know how "they" explain away the multitude of scriptures that are pro the Commandments in the NT scriptures.

I have NEVER received a satisfactory answer for this.

I've been 'venting' a bit today..... :sorry:

It comes and goes in waves for me....that frustrated feeling with other people's beliefs. :)

Shalom from Bon

AlikhnKwizad

30th July 2005, 10:38 AM

I don't believe Gentiles are required to keep all aspects of the Law... I think they are accountable to keep the Noahide laws... Now, followers of Messiah? Hum... I think they are to learn from Torah... continue in spiritual growth through an increased understanding of Torah... And that's where it gets fuzzy for me.

I know what G-d has called ME to do.

I could go into the "fuzzy" part... but i need to leave.

Charles YTK

30th July 2005, 10:38 AM

If you are living the good Christian life as you should be, then you are probably keeping about 80% of the Torah already . Many of the things that Torah cal for can not happen unless you are living in the lands of Israel and there is a Temple and functioning priesthood.

You as a Gentile are saved by the Jewish Messiah and brought into Israel (the people of faith) and made to be partakers of her coveants. You share in her history and have the rights and responsibilities of all Israel. We are to live righteously and without sin. Sin is breaking Gods commandments.

Charles

insaneinthebrain

30th July 2005, 11:10 AM

I voted Yes.
Since we as Gentiled are grafted in (not replacing though!) we should follow the Torah to the best of our abilities. Now, I also believe that one's observance is between he and G-d. It is a matter of the heart and should not be forced upon you by one person's interpretation. Keep seeking after G-d and allow Him to lead you.
I agree 100%.

(You know, there was a point a few years ago when P4I and I seemed to have quite a few theological differences, but that seems to have changed. I suspect one of us finally got their head on straight...most likely me. :D)

Mikhail

30th July 2005, 11:22 AM

I don't believe Gentiles are required to keep all aspects of the Law... I think they are accountable to keep the Noahide laws... .

Noach knew the difference between clean and unclean animals but that is conveniently left out of the so called rabbinical view very convenient of them to do that as it makes their teaching oh so much more palatable to the Vatican and Evangelical dismissal of keeeping kosher laws.

Mikhail ben Gino

Wags

30th July 2005, 01:09 PM

Yes - There is only one set of divine instructions on how to live a life pleasing to Adonai. And everyone that calls on the name of Yeshua is to follow his commandments. ("If you love me keep my commandments.") If we say we know him and do not follow his commands then we are liars.

Matthew 7:21-29 21 "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants. 22 On that Day, many will say to me, `Lord, Lord! Didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we expel demons in your name? Didn't we perform many miracles in your name?' 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, `I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!' How do we know what the Father in Heaven wants? By studying (and applying) his divine instructions .

Henaynei

30th July 2005, 02:57 PM

Main Entry: ob·li·ga·tion
Pronunciation: "ä-bl&-'gA-sh&n
Function: noun
1 : the action of obligating (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=obligating) oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)
2 a : something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=obligates) one to a course of action b : a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond) c : a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money; also : an amount owed under such an obligation <unable to meet its obligations, the company went into bankruptcy>
3 a : a condition or feeling of being obligated (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=obligated) b : a debt of gratitude
4 : something one is bound to do : DUTY (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=duty), RESPONSIBILITY (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=responsibility)

I have highlighted that which I feel applys to the issue.... and voted yes

jgonz

30th July 2005, 04:33 PM

I voted no because I hate the word "obligated". Obligated means something you HAVE to do, whether you want to or not. I have always felt that I GET TO follow Torah, because I love Him and He's leading me to, not because I HAVE to. KWIM?

The dictionary meaning that Henaynei posted is a fuller understanding of the word "obligated", but most people don't quite consider all of the meanings when they're using the word (at least in my experience, which, admittedly is limited. ;))

A_Pioneer

30th July 2005, 11:51 PM

Salvation doesn't depend on the keeping the commandments, but if you want to enter the city by the gates, this requires commandment keeping.
Mt 7:21 ¶ "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Mt 22:12 "So he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.

Rev.22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So if salvation is your goal, keep the faith, if you wish to be great in the kingdom, keep and teach the commandments
Mt 5:19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Bananna

31st July 2005, 12:46 AM

How do we know God and love God?
By living Torah
How do we honor Yehoshuah?
We follow his example.
How can those who do not know Torah and do not follow torah say they know God?
Words are cheap. Actions speak.

MyLittleWonders

31st July 2005, 03:01 AM

I voted yes ... pretty much for all the same reasons already stated. :)

yod

31st July 2005, 12:10 PM

I voted no. (surprised?)

Not because I think the Torah is void but because the answer to your question depends on whose interpretation you submit to.

Torah observance is a result of faith but is not our destination.

The current idea of Torah observance is mostly a rabbinic excercise that misses the point of faith, imo. The Law is fullfilled not in negative rules but in positive actions of faith. If our focus is keeping the various nuances of the Law then we are focusing inward instead of reaching outward; and end up majoring in the minors.

For instance, here is an example of people who were Torah observant yet completely missed the point.

Luke 11:42 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&verse=42&version=9&context=verse)
But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I've seen congregations that understand that torah observance is fulfilled in loving your neighbor. But I've seen more "torah observant" congregations who end up arguing over stupid things like gelatin in candy where suddenly they are seeking their own righteousness according to the law. This is where things go awry.

But perhaps the worst aspect of what some call "torah observance" is that you could be submitting in authority to men who actually hate Yeshua.

So I will simply state to a gentile/christian that a good understanding of the whole Bible and living a life of faith and love will lead to "true" torah observance naturally.

Don't assume that you've been told the truth about what the Torah is. Get in there...read...let the Holy Spirit teach you to apply what you learn.

There is nothing particularly wrong with a rabbinic form of worship. In fact, that is what I prefer because it acknowledges the ancient history (and glorious future) of God and His people.

The modern church is unbalanced because we sorely lack in understanding of the Torah. We have no root in the ancient ways of God because we only go back 2,000 years. The modern church has no sense of being saved collectively as a nation because we ignore the appointed times which God has given as rehearsals of future events. The modern church is a long way from where it began and needs eyesalve.

It all starts with knowing the foundation of the New Testament, the Torah.

Torah observance is a natural result of faith as long as it isn't held up as the final goal.

visionary

31st July 2005, 12:24 PM

Well said Yod... well said.

Mikhail

31st July 2005, 12:42 PM

Hi Yod,
I concur with your statements very well stated and observed.
Although I stated yes to the simple question at hand based on my understanding that the Torah was not inclusive of Rabbinical Oral Torah.
Mind you the Oral Torah of Church Theologians is just as bad as Rabbinical Oral Torah may we all be set free from both adding (Rabbinicalism) to the Written Torah and the Taking away (License to disobey it) from it.
Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

yod

31st July 2005, 01:25 PM

Mind you the Oral Torah of Church Theologians is just as bad as Rabbinical Oral Torah may we all be set free from both adding (Rabbinicalism) to the Written Torah and the Taking away (License to disobey it) from it.

Amen, amen, and amen!

Interpretation for christians;

Like the classic concept of the Pharisees, the church has also added a lot of rules, regulations, rituals, and sacraments which can not be found in the Bible. This has replaced the spirit of God's instruction, His Torah, in too many cases.

Before you think that observing Sabbath is going "back under the law" ask yourself why you observe one day out of seven. It is legalism in your case? Do you not acknowledge that the Sabbath is still in effect by this? We only disagree on which day is the appointed one.

Before you think that Passover is pointless....were you redeemed by the blood of The Lamb or by the Easter Bunny? The Feasts are given as a way of continually teaching our faith to the next generation. Why not teach what the Lord has told us instead of cultural celebrations (even if they originally had the best of intentions)?

Every person who has looked into the Torah (before OR after coming to faith) was made richer by it.

Tishri1

31st July 2005, 02:17 PM

Amen, amen, and amen!

Interpretation for christians;

Like the classic concept of the Pharisees, the church has also added a lot of rules, regulations, rituals, and sacraments which can not be found in the Bible. This has replaced the spirit of God's instruction, His Torah, in too many cases.

Before you think that observing Sabbath is going "back under the law" ask yourself why you observe one day out of seven. It is legalism in your case? Do you not acknowledge that the Sabbath is still in effect by this? We only disagree on which day is the appointed one.

Before you think that Passover is pointless....were you redeemed by the blood of The Lamb or by the Easter Bunny? The Feasts are given as a way of continually teaching our faith to the next generation. Why not teach what the Lord has told us instead of cultural celebrations (even if they originally had the best of intentions)?

Every person who has looked into the Torah (before OR after coming to faith) was made richer by it.:clap: amen:clap: amen:clap: amen

JSynon

31st July 2005, 02:17 PM

A_Pioneer

31st July 2005, 02:56 PM

Tishri1

31st July 2005, 03:21 PM

Obligated is a contravercial word, yet I hope no one reading this gets the idea that we mean obligated in order to recieve salvation (we have all seen this happen too many times) obligated in the sence that it is our desire out of love and if so who feels obligatory anyway....It's a want to not a have to...:clap:

Charles YTK

31st July 2005, 08:11 PM

Thanks everybody for your responses. :wave:

I can see and understand that Torah observance is a natural result of faith in Yeshua. Like CharlesYTK said, Christians that are living as they should are probably keeping around 80% of the Torah already. I can understand how faith leads to most of the Torah, but how does faith in Yeshua lead one to, say, the kosher dietary laws?

JSynon,

What Yeshua taught was not just what he said but how he lived. He and the aposltes were Kosher. Most Christains agree that homosexuality is an abomination to God. Well the God who said Homosexuality is an abomination, also said in the said chapters that to eat anything that is unclean is an abomination as well. He uses the same term abomination.

Our life in Messiah as sons of God is a call to holiness, righteousness. God said for us to be holy as he is holy and specifically said in conection with that what is clean and food and what is unclean and is not food. How we present oursselves is a reflection on our God. I posted another thread called Sanctification, How?

I think this will link it. It explains it well I think.Let me know if it helps.

http://www.christianforums.com/t1913882-sanctification-how.html

plum

31st July 2005, 09:12 PM

I voted YES.
and even agree with yod

Torah observance is a result of faith but is not our destination.

I've seen congregations that understand that torah observance is fulfilled in loving your neighbor. But I've seen more "torah observant" congregations who end up arguing over stupid things like gelatin in candy where suddenly they are seeking their own righteousness according to the law. This is where things go awry.

In this way I think those who only believe in following the 2 "greatest commandments" may actually fulfill them in a truer way than those who fight and squabble over the minute gestures of Torah observancy.

Something is wrong when I am taught to pay more attention to the actions of my body than to the actions of my heart.

JSynon

31st July 2005, 09:14 PM

Thanks Charles. That helps very much.

I've noticed that most of the people that voted 'no' have not commented.

Charles YTK

31st July 2005, 10:18 PM

Thanks Charles. That helps very much.

I've noticed that most of the people that voted 'no' have not commented.

Now a additional remark on Kosher. There is biblical Kosher and there is Rabbinical Kosher and then there is Orthodox Kosher. Torah gives us what we need, but over time many things were added to it. They can be followed according to your own convictions but God told us what is needed.

An example, "Do not seeth a kid in it mothers milk." The prohibition is against cruelty in slaughter and food preparation. That which was meant to be life for the aimal (it's mothers milk) should not become its death boiled in it.

But from this the Rabbii's said you can not eat meat with dairy. No cheese burgers, no meat on your Pizza, no cheese on your meat spaggetti, ect.

Then later they said you can not eat meat within a certain number of hours of having eaten dairy.

Later it was decided you can not cook meat in the same vessels in which dairy was cooked.

And then it was,, you need to have separate dishes one for meat and one for dairy.

And then,,, you must have two separate kitchens, one for meat and one for dairy.

Well it all gets pretty complicated and I know that the ancients did not have two sets of everything including two kitchens. The point was to avoid cruelty in your eating. Eating is to be an holy act. Animals are to be given respect and soothed to be calm and not afraid when slaughtered. We are not to tear the limbs off a live animal and eat it. We are not to eat a living animal, we are not to consume blood.

I personally maintain a biblical Kosher diet as shown in Torah.

hope this also helps,

Charles

JSynon

31st July 2005, 11:07 PM

Thanks again Charles. My understanding and faith in the Lord grows daily, and the Messianic movement, including this board, has opened my eyes a lot.

Love you all. :hug:

Bon

31st July 2005, 11:32 PM

Bon

31st July 2005, 11:48 PM

Now a additional remark on Kosher. There is biblical Kosher and there is Rabbinical Kosher and then there is Orthodox Kosher. Torah gives us what we need, but over time many things were added to it. They can be followed according to your own convictions but God told us what is needed.

An example, "Do not seeth a kid in it mothers milk." The prohibition is against cruelty in slaughter and food preparation. That which was meant to be life for the aimal (it's mothers milk) should not become its death boiled in it.

But from this the Rabbii's said you can not eat meat with dairy. No cheese burgers, no meat on your Pizza, no cheese on your meat spaggetti, ect.

Then later they said you can not eat meat within a certain number of hours of having eaten dairy.

Later it was decided you can not cook meat in the same vessels in which dairy was cooked.

And then it was,, you need to have separate dishes one for meat and one for dairy.

And then,,, you must have two separate kitchens, one for meat and one for dairy.

Well it all gets pretty complicated and I know that the ancients did not have two sets of everything including two kitchens. The point was to avoid cruelty in your eating. Eating is to be an holy act. Animals are to be given respect and soothed to be calm and not afraid when slaughtered. We are not to tear the limbs off a live animal and eat it. We are not to eat a living animal, we are not to consume blood.

I personally maintain a biblical Kosher diet as shown in Torah.

hope this also helps,

Charles

Thanks Charles....
I am of the same thought on Clean and Unclean as you are.

I follow 'biblical only' kosher, I eat meat and dairy together, and I do not separate utensils or vessels for cooking in my kitchen.

Which actually brings me to another interesting question.
I may start a new thread instead of hijacking this one, for it though.

Shalom from Bon

CovenantRay

1st August 2005, 12:06 AM

In your opinion, am I, as a Gentile believer in Messiah, obligated to keep the portions of Torah that apply to me? Why or why not?

Am I expected to? Or should I just do it because it is a good thing? Or do I not have to worry about it at all?

Shalom JSynon:

"Obligated" is a tough word. Please read the following scripture reference in 1 John, Chapter 5 (HNV):

(1Jo 5:1) Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him.
(1Jo 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his mitzvot.
(1Jo 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his mitzvot. His mitzvot are not grievous.

The word that is translated "mitzvot" is (from Strongs):

G1785
ἐντολή
entolē
en-tol-ay'

From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

=+=+=+=+=+=+

I guess the question is: As a Gentile [or Jew] who believes in Y'shua do we LOVE G-D? If we do, we will keep His mitzvot [commandments]. I believe the scripture above, coupled with others mentioned previously -- and more -- make it plain.

I shudder as I ask this, but what other conclusion can be reached from 1 John 5:1-3?

Todah [thank you] and Shalom,

CovenantRay :prayer:

plum

1st August 2005, 12:39 AM

Shalom JSynon:

"Obligated" is a tough word. Please read the following scripture reference in 1 John, Chapter 5 (HNV):

(1Jo 5:1) Whoever believes that Yeshua is the Messiah is born of God. Whoever loves the father also loves the child who is born of him.
(1Jo 5:2) By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his mitzvot.
(1Jo 5:3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his mitzvot. His mitzvot are not grievous.

The word that is translated "mitzvot" is (from Strongs):

G1785
ἐντολή
entolē
en-tol-ay'

From G1781; injunction, that is, an authoritative prescription: - commandment, precept.

=+=+=+=+=+=+

I guess the question is: As a Gentile [or Jew] who believes in Y'shua do we LOVE G-D? If we do, we will keep His mitzvot [commandments]. I believe the scripture above, coupled with others mentioned previously -- and more -- make it plain.

I shudder as I ask this, but what other conclusion can be reached from 1 John 5:1-3?

Todah [thank you] and Shalom,

CovenantRay :prayer:

Simply put, and clearly put.

If I may play devil's advocate here (which should be fun since I don't think this way at all):
This talks of Christ'a law, the new law because we're in the new covenant.
If we "love G-d" and "love others as ourselves" then we fulfill all these laws require, and MORE! So we are obedient if we love.

Bracy

1st August 2005, 03:19 AM

I voted no because I hate the word "obligated". Obligated means something you HAVE to do, whether you want to or not. I have always felt that I GET TO follow Torah, because I love Him and He's leading me to, not because I HAVE to.

If you are married, do you have an obligation to honor your marriage vows to your husband?

We entered into a firm, solemn covenant (a contract) with Elohim -- a MARRIAGE covenant -- in which we vowed to love, honor, cherish and obey Him. The obligation isn't our MOTIVATION for honoring our part of the contract (LOVE is the motivation), but we nevertheless have an obligation to honor our part of the contract.

ShirChadash

1st August 2005, 03:59 AM

If you are married, do you have an obligation to honor your marriage vows to your husband?

We entered into a firm, solemn covenant (a contract) with Elohim -- a MARRIAGE covenant -- in which we vowed to love, honor, cherish and obey Him. The obligation isn't our MOTIVATION for honoring our part of the contract (LOVE is the motivation), but we nevertheless have an obligation to honor our part of the contract.

:clap::clap::clap::amen::thumbsup:

Mikhail

1st August 2005, 09:09 AM

Now a additional remark on Kosher. There is biblical Kosher and there is Rabbinical Kosher and then there is Orthodox Kosher. Torah gives us what we need, but over time many things were added to it. They can be followed according to your own convictions but God told us what is needed.

An example, "Do not seeth a kid in it mothers milk." The prohibition is against cruelty in slaughter and food preparation. That which was meant to be life for the aimal (it's mothers milk) should not become its death boiled in it.

But from this the Rabbii's said you can not eat meat with dairy. No cheese burgers, no meat on your Pizza, no cheese on your meat spaggetti, ect.

Then later they said you can not eat meat within a certain number of hours of having eaten dairy.

Later it was decided you can not cook meat in the same vessels in which dairy was cooked.

And then it was,, you need to have separate dishes one for meat and one for dairy.

And then,,, you must have two separate kitchens, one for meat and one for dairy.

Well it all gets pretty complicated and I know that the ancients did not have two sets of everything including two kitchens. The point was to avoid cruelty in your eating. Eating is to be an holy act. Animals are to be given respect and soothed to be calm and not afraid when slaughtered. We are not to tear the limbs off a live animal and eat it. We are not to eat a living animal, we are not to consume blood.

I personally maintain a biblical Kosher diet as shown in Torah.

hope this also helps,

Charles

Hi Achi,
I would also say that the context of the kid in his mothers milk is in the context of bringing offerings to YHWH.

Neither immediateley before not after this verse is their any discussion or hint of kosher laws.

I find it interesting to note what YHHW chooses to discuss before and after as he has a divine order in the Torah.
Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

Charles YTK

1st August 2005, 11:45 AM

Charles YTK

1st August 2005, 11:49 AM

Bon and Mikhail,

Thanks you both for your input here. On the meat and dairy issue I have alwasy found it amusing that you can not eat chicken with dairy, because chicken is meat. But how ould it possibly be seethed in its mothers milk? :P

And Mikhal is corect that this appears in the middle of sacrificial regulations.

Charles

Henaynei

1st August 2005, 01:33 PM

A_Pioneer

1st August 2005, 02:18 PM

Lets be extremely generous to the Christian view, love God and your fellowman and you have fulfilled the Torah. Paul loved his fellowman so much he said; 1Co 8:13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend. And 1Co 11:1 ¶ Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

If you truly love me beware to not offend my belief! I will eat no cheeseburger. Also I will not belittle my Jewish neighbor by questioning his two pots.

Bracy

1st August 2005, 02:30 PM

A_Pioneer:

In one thread, you said:

Therefore one must add to what is written to come up with these conclussions and adding to the Word of God is specifically harshly punishable.

While in this thread, you said:

If you truly love me beware to not offend my belief! I will eat no cheeseburger. Also I will not belittle my Jewish neighbor by questioning his two pots.

Do you not see the discrepancy between your two statements? In the first statement, you accused Charles of adding to the Torah, while in the second statement, you are defending your own addition to the Torah.

Bracy

1st August 2005, 02:45 PM

By the way, with regard to the eating of meat and dairy products together, take note of what Abraham served HaShem in Genesis 18:1-8:

Genesis 18:1-8: And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw [them], he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant: Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree: And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said. And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead , and make cakes upon the hearth. And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave [it] unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it. [i]And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set [it] before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

If eating meat and dairy products together is forbidden, then how could Abraham have served it to HaShem? And how could HaShem have eaten it?

Devasha

1st August 2005, 03:32 PM

How I came to that conclusion:

Have I been bought with a price? Yes.

So, to whom do I belong and who is my Master? YHVH

So, then whom and what should I obey? Every word coming out of the mouth of YHVH

A couple other thoughts occurred to me while reading this thread--one thought triggered by the figure of 80%. I know no one mentioned that number as a goal or anything, but it did bring to mind Saul in 1 Samuel 15, who obeyed the words of YHVH at least 80%, if not more! And what was YHVH's answer:
1 Samuel 15:22-23

Some simple equations:

Partial obedience=Disobedience

Disobedience=Rebellion and Stubbornness

Rebellion=Witchcraft

Stubbornness=Iniquity and Idolatry

Two significant definitions:

Obedience--Doing the commandments of YHVH

Legalism--Doing the commandments of men

Another thought: The passage above says He delights in the obeying of His voice.

Could there be a connection between Him delighting in our obedience to Him and our delighting in Him? A couple more passages to ponder in that light:

Isaiah 58:13-14
Psalm 37:4

My personal testimony about this: I had been praying Psalm 37:4 for about a year during the lowest point in my life, and I would ask over and over again, "I am trying everything I know to delight in You, why are the desires of my heart not happening?"

I reasoned out that YHVH is not a man that He should lie, so something was obviously wrong with my understanding--either I wasn't delighting in Him, didn't know how, and/or I needed a new heart, and very likely it was both of those things, so I started praying specifically for that--"Please teach me how to delight in You and please give me a new heart."

Eventually I came across the Isaiah passage and was hit like a bolt of lightning by the exact same words from the Psalm: delight thyself in the LORD. And most significantly, accompanied by the phrase THEN shalt thou...

And this THEN referred to keeping the Sabbath--if I call the Sabbath a delight and keep it His way, THEN shall I be delighting in Him. This is where the scales started falling from my eyes, and then after starting my obedience there, He kept His promise and started feeding me with the "heritage of Jacob".

There truly is no greater delight than serving Him. :clap:

plum

1st August 2005, 07:56 PM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Devasha again.

Great and wonderful drash about delight!!

visionary

1st August 2005, 08:02 PM

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Devasha again.Just wanted you to know that it was wonderful testamony and holy illumination on a great truth.

Charles YTK

1st August 2005, 08:13 PM

on the issue of chicken and milk - for the Torah observant it is about "avoiding the appearance of evil" - meat stew is meat stew

please be careful in your discussions - no one is disparaging you who chose to keep "biblically kosher" - please be aware of the weight of words such as "always found it amusing" when you are referring to the observances of others - it is generous and kind to show the same level of respect for the observance of the Rabbinics as you yourself deserve - we can discuss differing POV and the thinking behind our different choices but we need to show equal respect to each other.

Sorry ,

I did not mean to offend anyone. As I said at the beginning of this Kosher issue,it is ok to keep whatever level of Kosher you feel is appropriate for yourself, but Torah only calls for what it calls for. And to seethe a kind in it's mothers milk is not listed in Kosher laws but is in sacrificial regulations.
My apologies to any who were offended.

Now without offending further I want to suggest something for thought ; if a person chooses to be Rabbinically Kosher then I believe that also intails the purity laws and that means to eat with unwashed hands or to eat with Gentiles is also causing your food to be unclean. These are two specific issues that were addressed in the writings, the unwashed hands was condemned by the Master, and eating with Gentiles making you and your food unclean was cindemned by Paul in the event with Peter withdrawing himself from Gentiles when the brothers from Jerusalem showed up.

Further your meat must be slaughtered in the Rabbinical way by a sanctioned Kosher butcher. There is none within a 1000 miles of here. and the meat washed in salt water thre times if I remember correctly.

We wash our meat in water to remove any left over blood, but I do not think it is possible to get ever single blood cell out of the intertissual spaces. Without capilary pressure there is no transfer.

Charles

Torah

1st August 2005, 09:03 PM

Further your meat must be slaughtered in the Rabbinical way by a sanctioned Kosher butcher. There is none within a 1000 miles of here. and the meat washed in salt water thre times if I remember correctly.

We wash our meat in water to remove any left over blood, but I do not think it is possible to get ever single blood cell out of the intertissual spaces. Without capilary pressure there is no transfer.

I would like to point out something about Kosher Meat, There is more to it then just slaughtering , and Blood. The meat must be unblemished. My son is a meat cuter and has worked for two major supermarkets. It is OK by the USDA for meat cutters to cut bad spots out of meat and pass it on to you to eat. My son says he cuts cancer spots out of meat almost every day.:eek: + rotten meat is just cut out and passed on.:eek: Kosher butchers will not pass this meat on.:amen:
So, now you know.;)

Henaynei

1st August 2005, 10:00 PM

I would like to point out something about Kosher Meat, There is more to it then just slaughtering , and Blood. The meat must be unblemished. My son is a meat cuter and has worked for two major supermarkets. It is OK by the USDA for meat cutters to cut bad spots out of meat and pass it on to you to eat. My son says he cuts cancer spots out of meat almost every day.:eek: + rotten meat is just cut out and passed on.:eek: Kosher butchers will not pass this meat on.:amen:
So, now you know.;) right - and when you buy chicken parts in the store you can almost guarntee that they come from chickens where the *other* parts could not pass USDA inspection - and that whole cut up chicken is just as likely to be a collection of the appropriate parts from a variety of indivdual chickens - remember that a whole chicken can be sold for more than one cut up ;) selling collections of parts is a good marketing move, especially when you have to send the rest of the meat to a pet food factory and get pennies for it...

jgonz

1st August 2005, 10:10 PM

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifI voted no because I hate the word "obligated". Obligated means something you HAVE to do, whether you want to or not. I have always felt that I GET TO follow Torah, because I love Him and He's leading me to, not because I HAVE to.http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif

If you are married, do you have an obligation to honor your marriage vows to your husband?

We entered into a firm, solemn covenant (a contract) with Elohim -- a MARRIAGE covenant -- in which we vowed to love, honor, cherish and obey Him. The obligation isn't our MOTIVATION for honoring our part of the contract (LOVE is the motivation), but we nevertheless have an obligation to honor our part of the contract.
Bracy~ I debated with myself about responding to this or not.

I was Merely pointing out that the Word obligated has a very negative connotation. I was also making the point that as a Gentile believer who is rather new to Torah observance, I find that the getting to follow Torah is more exciting than some legalistic approach that I have to follow Torah. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Please be careful how you post to others. Try to remember that not everyone is at your level and may not look at things the same way you do. You made it look like I don't understand the value or worth of my marriage vows, which you know nothing about.

I do agree with you, however, that the marriage covenant with the L-rd is very special and we have a responsibility to fulfill our end of it.

Mikhail

1st August 2005, 10:35 PM

please be careful in your discussions - no one is disparaging you who chose to keep "biblically kosher" - please be aware of the weight of words such as "always found it amusing" when you are referring to the observances of others - it is generous and kind to show the same level of respect for the observance of the Rabbinics as you yourself deserve - we can discuss differing POV and the thinking behind our different choices but we need to show equal respect to each other.

Based on this view of respect I do not think that Yochanan would have lasted very long here. He called the Pharasees a brood of vipers, hardly respectful of their beleifs.
Yeshua hardly would have qulaified here either ashe would have been far too politically incorrect to last very long here either.

Sometimes we need to stop and think exactly how Yeshua said things not just what he said.
Shalom,
Mikhail ben Gino

Bracy

1st August 2005, 11:58 PM

jgonz:

Please be careful how you post to others. Try to remember that not everyone is at your level and may not look at things the same way you do. You made it look like I don't understand the value or worth of my marriage vows, which you know nothing about.

I deeply sorry if that is how my post came across, it certainly was not my intent.

My intent was to merely point out that we have the same relationship with HaShem as we do with our earthly spouses. It is, quite literally I believe, a marriage relationship. We have the same obligation to "love, honor, cherish, and obey" HaShem that we do with our wives and husbands on earth.

Viewed in this light, our obligation to honor our marriage vows to HaShem carries no more of a negative connotation than our obligation to honor our marriage vows to our wives and husbands -- it is the same kind of relationship. But the obligation is not our motivation for honoring our vows. It isn't because we feel obligated that we honor and cherish our spouses, but because we love our spouses. Love is the motivation for honoring our vows, the obligation isn't our motivation. It is simply the natural result of our love, but the obligation still exists, nevertheless.

Does that help to explain better? Again, I apologize if my post was worded poorly, I honestly meant no offense.

JSynon

2nd August 2005, 01:57 AM

My intent was to merely point out that we have the same relationship with HaShem as we do with our earthly spouses. It is, quite literally I believe, a marriage relationship. We have the same obligation to "love, honor, cherish, and obey" HaShem that we do with our wives and husbands on earth.

Viewed in this light, our obligation to honor our marriage vows to HaShem carries no more of a negative connotation than our obligation to honor our marriage vows to our wives and husbands -- it is the same kind of relationship. But the obligation is not our motivation for honoring our vows. It isn't because we feel obligated that we honor and cherish our spouses, but because we love our spouses. Love is the motivation for honoring our vows, the obligation isn't our motivation. It is simply the natural result of our love, but the obligation still exists, nevertheless
Beautiful.

If I may play devil's advocate here (which should be fun since I don't think this way at all):
This talks of Christ'a law, the new law because we're in the new covenant.
If we "love G-d" and "love others as ourselves" then we fulfill all these laws require, and MORE! So we are obedient if we love.
That is exactly what I was taught for my entire life, until recently.

yod

2nd August 2005, 02:36 AM

When I think of Torah observance.....I think solely of the Word of Yahweh....nothing added....nothing taken away.

Now Yod....can I ask?

How about, if Joshua had said in his original post...:

Does Yahweh EXPECT that I, as a gentile believer, am to keep His commandments?

How would you answer?

Shalom from Bon

When I think of the things I have been forgiven of, it's hard for me to judge what is expected of someone else, ya know?

Do I think the minutia of the Torah is important? Yea...sort of.

We won't be "graded" on how much we've perfected our flesh through vain works of the law, but rather on how we have treated others through the Holy Spirit.

The Law is a good for instruction in righteousness.....but the only power it has is to condemn.

Torah

2nd August 2005, 03:46 AM

right - and when you buy chicken parts in the store you can almost guarntee that they come from chickens where the *other* parts could not pass USDA inspection - and that whole cut up chicken is just as likely to be a collection of the appropriate parts from a variety of indivdual chickens - remember that a whole chicken can be sold for more than one cut up ;) selling collections of parts is a good marketing move, especially when you have to send the rest of the meat to a pet food factory and get pennies for it...

:thumbsup: This is true. Thanks Henaynei. There have been times[befor I was buying Kosher meat] When my son would say "Dad dont buy chicken this week, We got alot of bad chicken this week". :eek:

Tishri1

2nd August 2005, 06:21 PM

Love you all. :hug::groupray: group hug

Tishri1

2nd August 2005, 06:45 PM

Simply put, and clearly put.

If I may play devil's advocate here (which should be fun since I don't think this way at all):
This talks of Christ'a law, the new law because we're in the new covenant.
If we "love G-d" and "love others as ourselves" then we fulfill all these laws require, and MORE! So we are obedient if we love.OK this is fun! I was thinking of my kids and the stuff I put up with because I love them....but even though I know they love me...Oh what a blessing it is when they do what I ask them to...