From the Revelation of John: APOCALYPSE

[MORTANIUS]

*Please read Revelation of John 7:4-8

Notice how among the twelve tribes the Tribe of Dan is not mentioned.

Originally the Tribe of Dan was part of the Tribes of Israel, but in Revelations, it is completely omitted!

This is no accident or oversight. I was discussing this issue with my friends (one of which was Orthodox and the other who is Roman Catholic).

I learned some interesting perspectives. It is not absolutely believed, but is considered that from amongst the Tribe of Dan, the Anti-Christ emerges.

At first I wondered how this would be known, and why would an entire Tribe or its descendants be cast out completely from the fullness of the meaning of the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelations.

On one hand, it is omitted to indicate that one group is no longer accepted, while on the other hand it could mean that from such a group, the fullness of those 144,000 saved, the exclusion of the mention of the Tribe of Dan serves to warn or show us something. What that exactly is still remains open.

I discussed more about this issue with my friends but I cannot divulge that information here, at least for now.

Anyone else find this particular passage interesting or intrigueing?

[guitarplayer_101]

*Please read Revelation of John 7:4-8

Notice how among the twelve tribes the Tribe of Dan is not mentioned.

Originally the Tribe of Dan was part of the Tribes of Israel, but in Revelations, it is completely omitted!

This is no accident or oversight. I was discussing this issue with my friends (one of which was Orthodox and the other who is Roman Catholic).

I learned some interesting perspectives. It is not absolutely believed, but is considered that from amongst the Tribe of Dan, the Anti-Christ emerges.

At first I wondered how this would be known, and why would an entire Tribe or its descendants be cast out completely from the fullness of the meaning of the 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelations.

On one hand, it is omitted to indicate that one group is no longer accepted, while on the other hand it could mean that from such a group, the fullness of those 144,000 saved, the exclusion of the mention of the Tribe of Dan serves to warn or show us something. What that exactly is still remains open.

I discussed more about this issue with my friends but I cannot divulge that information here, at least for now.

Anyone else find this particular passage interesting or intrigueing?

Interesting it is!:thumbsup:

[filosofer]

Just for clarity's sake. The Biblical book is titled Revelation, no S at the end.

And the listing of tribes in Revelation matches no list exactly in the OT.

[Protoevangel]

I discussed more about this issue with my friends but I cannot divulge that information here, at least for now.
If you did, you'd have to kill us? ;)

Shhhhh, it's a matter of national security! :D


.


:P

[MORTANIUS]

Just for clarity's sake. The Biblical book is titled Revelation, no S at the end.

And the listing of tribes in Revelation matches no list exactly in the OT.


:confused: Thats the point, that it doesn't match with what is known in the OT. Why would such a discrepency occur? Obviously it is not an oversight/accident.

There is a reason for this difference.

DANHEAD, actually the reason I don't want to share the rest of the convo is because I'd probably get a "warning" from the admins/mods who will no doubt find what I might say offensive or out of the context of this forum and its rules. This is unfortunate.

Then again, if I tell you, then you would have to be silenced :P

[Protoevangel]

DANHEAD, actually the reason I don't want to share the rest of the convo is because I'd probably get a "warning" from the admins/mods who will no doubt find what I might say offensive or out of the context of this forum and its rules. This is unfortunate.
Yes, Big Brother IS watching. Or in this case, Big Sister. You don't even want them to get the thought-police after you. ;)

Then again, if I tell you, then you would have to be silenced :P
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/customavatars/avatar25479_3.gif
Yeeeeew jest tryyy it buddy!!! :D :D

[MORTANIUS]

LOL Hmmmm? I don't know what to fear more? The big eyes on that rodent in you're pic or the gattling gun it is carrying :D

[filosofer]

One likely suggestion why Dan is missing relates to two OT issues and then some additional pseudepigraph insights:

1. The tribe of Dan erected graven images (Gen. 49:17, but especially Judges 18:1-31).

2. Later King Jeroboam set up a golden calf in two places for the people to worship: Dan and Bethel (1 Kings 12:25-30)

3. Pseudepigrapha: Dan was associated with apostasy and idolatry. In Testament of Dan 5:6, it says that the prince of Dan was Satan. (Part of the second century BC writing called Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs, see J. Charlesworth, Pseudepigrapha, 1:775-828)

Note that it is the early church father, Irenaeus, who wrote that the Antichrist will come from Dan (Against Heresies, 5:30:2). Later Hyppolytus wrote: "For just as from the tribe of Judah the Christ is born, so also from the tribe of Dan the Antichrist will be born" (De Antichristo, 14). A ninth century writer, Arethas, also wrote that the Antichrist will come from Dan.


And the other that is not listed is Ephraim, son of Joseph and brother of Mannaseh (who is listed) also is connected with apostasy and idolatry (Judges 17:1-13).

So it appears that the two removed (Dan and Ephraim) are so because of apostasy and idolatry, while the two that are added (Joseph and Levi) emphasize the faithfulness to God, and especially the ones who focus on the Messiah, since Judah is listed first.

[MORTANIUS]

filosofer, those are very good points. However, such points can serve to explain some of the early patristic thoughts about the Tribe of Dan as being excluded not only for the past, but for the present and future.

In being excluded, one argument which my Roman Catholic friend mentioned (using similar passages as you have posted) that such sin serves as a legacy and inheritence to an Anti-Christ.

This has really intrigued me lately. Perhaps there have been some Lutheran writers or scholars who have rendered an opinion on this matter? If you know of any, I would appreciate any book name or articles.

[MORTANIUS]

I just thought I'd up-date anyone who was interested in this topic.

With the same friends I spoke of, we did some further reading. First from the Holy Scriptures. We found many passages from the Old Testament regarding the Tribe of Dan.

The most interesting passage was that the future of the Tribes of Israel have been prophesied by JACOB (the father of each of the Twelve Tribes).

GENESIS 49:16-17

"Dan will be a ruler for his people. They will be like the other tribes of Israel. Dan will be a snake at the side of the road. A poisonous snake beside the path. That strikes at the horse's heel, so that the rider is thrown off backward."

When we opened our books to see what early Christian writers had thought about the Tribe of Dan we discovered that the idea that the Anti-Christ may arise from the Tribe of Dan is nothing new!

Ambrose of Milan, Jerome, Augustine etc. are just a few who have noted this issue and concern.

It seems that the Old Testament Book of Genesis makes a very disturbing prophecy if we compare it to the Book of Revelation.

Again, I ask, do any of you know of any Lutheran authors who may have commented or shared this or more information about this matter? I would be very interested in acquiring any such book. No one here in Toronto knows of any.