Lutherans and Salvation

[5aret]

Hello, I am a Roman Catholic, and I'm wondering about what Lutheran doctrine about Salvation. I'm not sure on your position, so maybe someone Lutheran or other can help. What is the Lutheran position on Salvation, and can only Lutherans be saved? :help:

Brother in Christ,
5aret :hug:

[LilLamb219]

Lutherans believe that God does it all in salvation. God came to earth as man and lived the perfect life of obedience, died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins and was resurrected. God gives faith to believe in what was accomplished so that we may have eternal life. Man can reject this though and by man's own doing be damned.

Lutherans do not believe that only Lutherans are saved.

[5aret]

Ok, so who else can be saved according to Lutheran Doctrine?

And also, do Lutherans believe that once you are saved, you are always saved, or someone can lose his or her salvation?

Thank you for answering,

Peace in Christ,
5aret- :amen:

[Protoevangel]

All who have faith in Christ are Justified in God's sight.

One can indeed reject the faith they were given, and therefore "loose" their Justification.

[5aret]

What are your views on works?

[Protoevangel]

Works are good. But they are not spoken of in the same breath as Justification or Salvation. The true Gospel declares that good works are the embellishment of faith, but that faith itself is the gift and work of God in our hearts. Works are taught, but in their proper order; works do not save us, Christ saves us. Works are indeed good, but when the discussion is about Justification, works have no place whatsoever in the conversation.

Martin Luther said it best in his commentary on Saint Paul's Epistle to the Galatians when he said, "It is not an easy matter to teach faith without works, and still to require works. Unless the ministers of Christ are wise in handling the mysteries of God and rightly divide the word, faith and good works may easily be confused. Both the doctrine of faith and the doctrine of good works must be diligently taught, and yet in such a way that both the doctrines stay within their God-given sphere. If we only teach works, as our opponents do, we shall lose the faith. If we only teach faith people will come to think that good works are superfluous."

[5aret]

So, what if someone is a Lutheran Christian and does no good works and just evil works, but still believes in Christ as his savior can still be Saved?
So, theoretically, Adolf Hitler could be saved if he was a Lutheran and believed in Christ as his Savior? As guess he would have to repent from his sins though.:bow:

[SPALATIN]

So, what if someone is a Lutheran Christian and does no good works and just evil works, but still believes in Christ as his savior can still be Saved?
So, theoretically, Adolf Hitler could be saved if he was a Lutheran and believed in Christ as his Savior? As guess he would have to repent from his sins though.:bow:

Hold Everything there!

WHat does scripture say about the tree bearing fruit? We are saying that Works has no merit in salvation. It is not us, but him, however,in santification we would see whether or not Herr Hitler had the faith or not. If his faith is not producing good, but bad we would have to assume it is not the Holy Spirit in him, but rather an evil spirit.

Luther said that as Christians we can't help but do good works as it is what faith in us does. But it is him who enables us to do these good works and very little of our own effort.

Does that help clarify for you?

[5aret]

yes, that clears it up. So if someone is not doing good works but bad, than he does not have true faith because obviously the holy spirit is not in him, but he is evil? Ok, I get it. So if you were a true believer and had true faith in Jesus Christ and had the Holy Spirit in you, you would do good works and flee from evil?

Also, what about the time in the Bible when a man came up to Jesus and asked how to attain salvation, and Jesus said "Follow the commandments." and then he said the 2 great commandments were "Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your spirit." ANd then he said the 2nd great commandment was "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." How do Lutherans explain what Jesus was saying?

[SPALATIN]

yes, that clears it up. So if someone is not doing good works but bad, than he does not have true faith because obviously the holy spirit is not in him, but he is evil? Ok, I get it. So if you were a true believer and had true faith in Jesus Christ and had the Holy Spirit in you, you would do good works and flee from evil?

Also, what about the time in the Bible when a man came up to Jesus and asked how to attain salvation, and Jesus said "Follow the commandments." and then he said the 2 great commandments were "Love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your spirit." ANd then he said the 2nd great commandment was "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." How do Lutherans explain what Jesus was saying?

Let me ask you how do Roman Catholics explain it?

You give me your explanation and I will be happy to give you mine. :)

[5aret]

Ok, Catholics beieve that there are 2 things necessary for Salvation:

1. First and most important of all, you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and repent from your sins

2. In result of this, we must be the best Christian we can be. IE: By doing good works, pleasing God, obeying the Gospel, abstain from sin, etc..

Now, Catholics believe that if you reject Christ and expect to be saved through good works, you will not attain Salvation. You must do good works and be a good Christian not for the reason of attaining Salvation, but we do good works because we want to serve and obey God, and God commanded us to do good works. We believe that if you do no good works and be evil, you will be blured from the truth of Christ and the Holy Spirit will leave your soul. Therefore, you may think you believe in Christ, but deep down you do not. That can only happen by doing evil works and disobeying God.

We should do good works just to please God and obey him, Not to get to heaven. We believe Jesus died for our sins, but if we let Jesus pay our price, we must now become one with Christ also. We do this by obeying and pleasing God by going to mass, praying often, doing good works for your neighbor, etc.

As far as the sacraments go, We do the sacraments to greatly streangthen our relationship with Christ and God, and it is just another way of pleasing God. While the Sacraments are Very importent to us, you may not lose your salvation over it. Especially if you are a sincere believer in Christ, you may be saved.

Now if you are confused over why Paul has said sometimes that you need just faith and no works, and other times he says we need works with faith. This is how we explain it:

There are 2 types of Good Works:

1. Works in the system of Law

2. Works in the system of Grace


Works in the system of law pretty much is doing good works with you expecting God to repay you for it. IE: heaven, blessings, etc..
If you do good works this way, you will not attain salvation, because all have fallen from the glory of God.

Works in the system of Grace is doing Good Works and obeying God without expecting anything in return and just obeying and pleasing him in faith and love. If you do good works and obey God in this way in addition to repenting for you're sins and accepting The Lord Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior, you can be saved. :holy:

So what is your view?

[SPALATIN]

Ok, Catholics beieve that there are 2 things necessary for Salvation:

1. First and most important of all, you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior and repent from your sins

2. In result of this, we must be the best Christian we can be. IE: By doing good works, pleasing God, obeying the Gospel, abstain from sin, etc..

Now, Catholics believe that if you reject Christ and expect to be saved through good works, you will not attain Salvation. You must do good works and be a good Christian not for the reason of attaining Salvation, but we do good works because we want to serve and obey God, and God commanded us to do good works. We believe that if you do no good works and be evil, you will be blured from the truth of Christ and the Holy Spirit will leave your soul. Therefore, you may think you believe in Christ, but deep down you do not. That can only happen by doing evil works and disobeying God.

We should do good works just to please God and obey him, Not to get to heaven. We believe Jesus died for our sins, but if we let Jesus pay our price, we must now become one with Christ also. We do this by obeying and pleasing God by going to mass, praying often, doing good works for your neighbor, etc.

As far as the sacraments go, We do the sacraments to greatly streangthen our relationship with Christ and God, and it is just another way of pleasing God. While the Sacraments are Very importent to us, you may not lose your salvation over it. Especially if you are a sincere believer in Christ, you may be saved.

Now if you are confused over why Paul has said sometimes that you need just faith and no works, and other times he says we need works with faith. This is how we explain it:

There are 2 types of Good Works:

1. Works in the system of Law

2. Works in the system of Grace


Works in the system of law pretty much is doing good works with you expecting God to repay you for it. IE: heaven, blessings, etc..
If you do good works this way, you will not attain salvation, because all have fallen from the glory of God.

Works in the system of Grace is doing Good Works and obeying God without expecting anything in return and just obeying and pleasing him in faith and love. If you do good works and obey God in this way in addition to repenting for you're sins and accepting The Lord Jesus Christ as your personal lord and savior, you can be saved. :holy:

So what is your view?

Your question was about the Rich young man who asked what he must do to attain salvation. If you look at the 10 commandments they can be pretty much split into 2 groups. The first group of commandments are how we are to revere God. So by loving him with your heart, mind, soul and strength you will put him above all other Gods, not take his name in vain, remember his sabbath day and keep it holy.

The second commandment is Love your neighbor as yourself. If you look at commandments 4-10 they are directed at our relationships with our family and friends and neighbors. If we Love our neighbors in this way we are not likely to Steal from them, Murder them, bear false witness against them, covet their wife or covet anything else that belongs to them. We also will honor our mother and father.

Jesus had summarized the main law into these 2 commandments. Can we then without the aid of the Holy Spirit live these laws? no we can not. We will instead run away from God and choose our own way. We are only attracted to Christ through first hearing his word and in hearing his word we are introduced to the Holy Spirit in that he begins his work to convict us that we can not live up to these laws and fall short of God's glory. Once we come to that realization we can then express that we are sinners.

The Gospel gives us the wonderful news that God loves us and that he has provided a way for us to be free of the sins that have convicted us in the past and present and gives future assurance that repentance will bring further forgiveness.

Only the Holy Spirit can write God's laws on our heart. We also would not say that we "accept" Christ as the word "accept" denotes an action on our part.

[MORTANIUS]

One thing worth mentioning about Salvation is as follows.

Baptism, Communion, Repentence before God, honouring the New Covenant that is set before us by Lord Jesus etc. = Faith. All these things are required for example.

However, even though someone does all these things doesn't excuse them from going against God and lapsing in their faith. Salvation isn't given by God for those who refuse it.

A sinner can become a righteous man or woman, just as easily as a rigtheous man or woman can become a sinner.

Salvation has been granted to humanity if humanity so wishes to accept this beautifula and merciful gift from God Almighty.

[SPALATIN]

One thing worth mentioning about Salvation is as follows.

Baptism, Communion, Repentence before God, honouring the New Covenant that is set before us by Lord Jesus etc. = Faith. All these things are required for example.

However, even though someone does all these things doesn't excuse them from going against God and lapsing in their faith. Salvation isn't given by God for those who refuse it.

A sinner can become a righteous man or woman, just as easily as a rigtheous man or woman can become a sinner.

Salvation has been granted to humanity if humanity so wishes to accept this beautifula and merciful gift from God Almighty.

Mortanius,

It may be just a matter of the correct word used here. We don't "accept" but we do receive this beautiful and merciful gift from God Almighty through his son. The word receive is a passive word whereas the word "accept" is an active verb which denotes synergy rather than monergy.

[5aret]

Yes, You could not follow the 10 commandments without the Holy Spirit's Aid. And if the Holy Spirit is in you, you probably believe in Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. I get that. :amen:

[SPALATIN]

Actually 5,

Christians don't follow the 10 commandments as given to the Jews by Moses. We are Gentiles and Paul said that we were living the law in our hearts. So we didn't need to be captive to the law the Judaizers were trying to force on us.

[5aret]

Than why did Jesus tell us to follow the commandments? The 2 great commandments were based off of the 10 origional.


Also, which 5 commandments?

[Qoheleth]

Christians don't follow the 10 commandments as given to the Jews by Moses. We are Gentiles and Paul said that we were living the law in our hearts. So we didn't need to be captive to the law the Judaizers were trying to force on us.

Your not implying that we no longer obey the Commands of our Lord, are you?

Q

[5aret]

Thats what I was wondering.

[LilLamb219]

We are not required to follow the 10 commandments as all of the Law has been fulfilled for us. BUT, we do want to follow them as the Law is good and is beneficial to our neighbor and ourselves (not for gain). The Law helps maintain order here on earth.

[5aret]

So, you could worship a different God, Murder someone, etc.. and get away with it? Well, in the Catholic faith, we obey the 10 commandements. This is because this is what Jesus tells us to do when the man asked "how do you obtain salvation?" and Jesus said "follow the commandments." He then went on to explain the 2 greatest commandments, based off of the 10 commandements. Now if they were abolished, why would Jesus say that? :preach:

:amen: 5aret

[Qoheleth]

5aret

The short answer is, yes, Lutherans are required and do uphold and obey the Lord's commands, Its just the timid way of Lutherans to avoid any talk of the law or works being part of salvation. The fact is, one cannot separate Faith and works or being obedient to Christ and His commands.

Q

[Victrixa]

Good works are a fruit of true faith. :) A true Christian (one by faith and not by name only) will, because of the Holy Spirit's working in him/her, do good works as a result of his/her faith.

Jesus' commands (including the order to obey the 10 commandments) will be a natural thing for a true Christians to follow as God's nature through the working of the Holy Spirit will be transforming the Christian. :)

[Victrixa]

Jesus and the rich young man: the rich young man had to repent for putting his riches above God. But he decided against repenting for his idolatry and putting God first and went on to continue in his lifestyle. He did obey God's commandments, but that was only religiously, not because his heart had been transformed by the Holy Spirit through faith. God must be first in our lives and any type of good work, including obeying God's commands, must be a fruit of our faith. Doing good works like that ain't gonna save ya. :)

[5aret]

ok, I get it.

[C.F.W. Walther]

We sin daily and we are forgiven daily. We'd be a paranoid wreck if we tried to uphold all the old and new testament laws. As stated before we forget God's grace and mercy to us under the new covenent. We keep his commandments because we love Him as He first loved us. If we don't keep the commandments daily He is faithfull and just to forgive. The Hold Spirit convicts us when we are in God's grace so we are constantly reminded of His laws and presents. But one caveat, He forgives our sins, but as Magdelene, we should go and sin no more. This is Paul's admonition about ultra sinning so his grace abounds. Luther even says "let your sins be strong". Most Lutherans are not caught up in the daily struggle of keeping commandments because GOd gives us peace. He says "I give your peace not of this world" which is the security in knowing that with his grace we are free. Sometimes it's hard to believe that God is that loving. We are allways looking for the reason why He is doing it like if He does us a favor we need to return it. That kind of reasoning would totally eradicate GRACE.




:)

[5aret]

Ok, so you are saved through faith, and then works just flow out?

[Qoheleth]

Jesus and the rich young man: the rich young man had to repent for putting his riches above God.

Good point, Faith is lived throughout in a constant state of penitence. Without a repentant life, we have no faith.

God must be first in our lives and any type of good work, including obeying God's commands, must be a fruit of our faith. Doing good works like that ain't gonna save ya.

I defer to the quote below of Martin Luther;

"Faith is a living, bold trust in God's grace, so certain of
God's favor that it would risk death a thousand times trusting in it.
Such confidence and knowledge of God's grace makes you happy,
joyful and bold in your relationship to God and all creatures. The
Holy Spirit makes this happen through faith. Because of it, you
freely, willingly and joyfully do good to everyone, serve
everyone, suffer all kinds of things, love and praise the God who
has shown you such grace. Thus, it is just as impossible to
separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from
fire!"
("An Introduction to St. Paul's Letter to the Romans," Martin Luther)



Most Lutherans are not caught up in the daily struggle of keeping commandments because GOd gives us peace. He says "I give your peace not of this world" which is the security in knowing that with his grace we are free.

This sounds like cheap grace according to the scriptures and the witness of the church throughout the ages. We must take up our cross, i.e. obey the commandments of our Lord and even suffer martyrdom if we are so blessed

Faith must be lived, then understood. Faith is not about intellectual assent, it must be put into action by grace to be alive and most especially by prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

Q

[MORTANIUS]

Ok, so you are saved through faith, and then works just flow out?

Works onto themselves are just works.

If done for the glorification of God Almighty, then such works serve the Lord, and not ourselves.

Basically yes, through faith, works occur and are a benefit to our fellow Christians and especially to God, but never ourselves.

We cannot glorify ourselves in works. God glorifies those who glorify Him.

[LilLamb219]

So, you could worship a different God, Murder someone, etc.. and get away with it?

Who said that?

Without faith in the triune God one is not saved and does not "get away" with anything.

[LilLamb219]

Also, when you ask if something is "required", I should have asked, Required for WHAT?

[5aret]

What I meant was that according to someone here, they said that the 10 commandements were ablolished by Jesus. Thats what I meant.

[Protoevangel]

What I meant was that according to someone here, they said that the 10 commandements were ablolished by Jesus. Thats what I meant.
I did not see anyone say that the Ten Commandments were abolished. Did I miss something? :scratch:

[Jim47]

Well, in the Catholic faith, we obey the 10 commandements. This is because this is what Jesus tells us to do when the man asked "how do you obtain salvation?" and Jesus said "follow the commandments." He then went on to explain the 2 greatest commandments, based off of the 10 commandements. Now if they were abolished, why would Jesus say that? :preach:

:amen: 5aret


Do you actually believe that you keep the commandments and commit "no sin"?????????? According to the bible this is impossible.



Rom 7:7 What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[2]

Rom 7:8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead.

Rom 7:9 Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Rom 7:10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

Rom 7:11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

Rom 7:12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

Rom 7:13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Rom 7:15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do.

Rom 7:16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good.

Rom 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Rom 7:18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[3] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Rom 7:19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do-this I keep on doing.

Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Rom 7:21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

Rom 7:22 For in my inner being I delight in God's law;

Rom 7:23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.

Rom 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God-through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

[SPALATIN]

What I meant was that according to someone here, they said that the 10 commandements were ablolished by Jesus. Thats what I meant.

I certainly was not the one to say that, but I did say that we as Gentiles were not given the 10 commandments as were the Jews in the Old Testament. Paul stated that the Gentiles did not have the law as the Jews did, but they followed the precepts of a law similar to it so did not have to be subject to the law. The law was fulfilled by Christ, not abolished.

[BigNorsk]

Than why did Jesus tell us to follow the commandments? The 2 great commandments were based off of the 10 origional.


That statement is backwards, the Ten Commandments are based off the 2.

Matthew 22:36-40 NET
(36) "Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?"
(37) Jesus said to him, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.'
(38) This is the first and greatest commandment.
(39) The second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
(40) All the law and the prophets depend on these two commandments."

The word translated as depend would mean literally to hang from. And it worthwhile to note that not only the law but also the prophets hang from the love of God and of man.

Marv

[5aret]

Ok, fine. Abolished, fufilled, "nailed on the cross", same thing to me. Even if we don't have to obey them, they are a guideline on which what God expected of the Jews. I think God at least expects the same thing from us if we are true disciples of Christ.

[Protoevangel]

Ok, fine. Abolished, fufilled, "nailed on the cross", same thing to me. Even if we don't have to obey them, they are a guideline on which what God expected of the Jews. I think God at least expects the same thing from us if we are true disciples of Christ.
Then your argument is with Jesus Himself:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."
Matthew 5:16

You see, we are required to follow the Law. But not for our Justification. Indeed, works do follow after faith, but those works do not cause or even contribute to our Salvation. Doing the works of the Law to merit anything from God is to rebel against God, and try to place Him in your debt, i.e., to reject Christ and make Him of no benefit to you. True faith does the works of the Law from gratitude, not for merit.

[ByzantineDixie]

The Orthodox have, as part of the morning prayers, a prayer which speaks well to this and sounds remarkably Lutheran:

My most merciful and all-merciful God, Lord Jesus Christ, through Thy great love Thou didst come down and take flesh to save all. And again, O Saviour, save me by Thy grace, I pray Thee, for if Thou shouldst save me for my works, this would not be grace or a gift, but rather a duty. Indeed, in Thy infinite compassion and unspeakable mercy, Thou O my Christ hast said: Whoever believes in Me shall live and never see death. If faith in Thee saves the desperate, save me, for Thou art my God and Creator. Impute my faith instead of deeds, O my God, for Thou wilt find no deeds which could justify me, but may my faith suffice for all my deeds. May it answer for and acquit me, and may it make me a partaker of Thy eternal glory.

[Qoheleth]

but those works do not cause or even contribute to our Salvation

How about those works contribute to but do not merit our salvation??

Q

[5aret]

So, If you did not do any works, you would still go to heaven?

[ByzantineDixie]

So, If you did not do any works, you would still go to heaven?

Not impossible (thinking of the thief on the cross here) but I would suspect highly unlikely.

I just visited another forum and found this...thought it might be of interest here.

In his Convention Essays, C.F.W. Walther says this:
Now then, Gerhard continues: “After we have been reborn through the Holy Spirit, we are led in such a way as to also become active, that is, the will of man operates not through the powers given by nature, but rather through the power given by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and then is an active, cooperative instrument.”

This also is true: Whoever has not arrived at this, namely to work with the Holy Spirit, is not a Christian. Whoever bases his Christianity on occasionally attending Church and there letting God’s Word impress him, awaken him, frighten or comfort him, and then gets up and leaves, remaining essentially unchanged – he is not a Christian. A Christian is one who through God’s Word and Spirit has been so transformed that he himself now works together with God in all spiritual good; for only then will God cooperate. It must not be forgotten that no one can ever work together with God through his own natural power, but only through the Spirit and the power he has received in his conversion. (59, 60)

[SPALATIN]

Ok, fine. Abolished, fufilled, "nailed on the cross", same thing to me. Even if we don't have to obey them, they are a guideline on which what God expected of the Jews. I think God at least expects the same thing from us if we are true disciples of Christ.

They were actually more of a guideline. It was for the chosen people the way to obtain salvation. If you kept the law perfectly you were saved, but since that is an impossibility because of sin it became a reflection how sinful we really are. The law shows us our imperfection.

The law was not abolished by Christ, but fulfilled. He is the only one who was as a human able to keep it all. By fulfilling the law he proved that it could be done with the help of God. Jesus was God and had the ability of God to keep it.

It is not a matter of strict obedience on our part, but the Empowerment of the very God in our lives to help us keep those commandments. The commandments themselves don't deliver us, but our faith in him as our Lord and Savior to do this.

[filosofer]

They were actually more of a guideline. It was for the chosen people the way to obtain salvation. If you kept the law perfectly you were saved, but since that is an impossibility because of sin it became a reflection how sinful we really are. The law shows us our imperfection.

If you are referring to the 10 commandments in Exodus 20, notice that they are preceded by the Gospel (20:1-2):

And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

And the form of the Hebrew verb is taken as indicative, not imperative. In other words, they are descriptive of what the people of God are like ("God's people will have no other gods... God's people will not take the name of the LORD in vain... God's people will remember the Sabbath..."). Only as they failed to demonstrate how God's people live, did the commandments then become the accusing and condemning word of God.

And just to be clear the people in the OT were saved the same way we are saved: by faith - that is the whole point of what Paul wrote in Romans 4 and Galatians 3, and the writer of Hebrews in chapter 11.


The law was not abolished by Christ, but fulfilled. He is the only one who was as a human able to keep it all. By fulfilling the law he proved that it could be done with the help of God. Jesus was God and had the ability of God to keep it.


There is more involved than the ability to keep the Law. We can't even do that, we do not have the ability: Romans 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot.


It is not a matter of strict obedience on our part, but the Empowerment of the very God in our lives to help us keep those commandments. The commandments themselves don't deliver us, but our faith in him as our Lord and Savior to do this.


And the ultimate difference with the RCC involves this tension. According to RCC teaching it is the grace that empowers the person to do the good works, which then allows God to count the person worthy. Whereas we say that God declares us worthy because of Christ's good works (active obedience) and his payment for our sins (passive obedience), which constitutes Christ's righteousness, and which is credited to our account, which faith receives. Our good works reflect our faith and proceed from it. In the RCC teaching faith and good works contribute to receiving salvation.

[5aret]

Ok, I think I get it all...

[Protoevangel]

How about those works contribute to but do not merit our salvation??

Q
If somehow you do not mean that in a cause-effect way, then maybe. But generally I can't buy "contribute to" either, it indicates a causality relationship.

"We believe, teach, and confess that, although the contrition that precedes, and the good works that follow, do not belong to the article of justification before God, yet one is not to imagine a faith of such a kind as can exist and abide with, and alongside of, a wicked intention to sin and to act against the conscience. But after man has been justified by faith, then a true living faith worketh by love, Gal. 5, 6, so that thus good works always follow justifying faith, and are surely found with it, if it be true and living; for it never is alone, but always has with it love and hope."
Epitome of the Formula of Concord
III. The Righteousness of Faith Before God:11

"Therefore we reject and condemn all the following errors:"
"That believers are justified before God and saved jointly by the imputed righteousness of Christ and by the new obedience begun in them, or in part by the imputation of Christ's righteousness, but in part also by the new obedience begun in them."
Epitome of the Formula of Concord
III. The Righteousness of Faith Before God:12,21

"We believe, teach, and confess also that good works should be entirely excluded, just as well in the question concerning salvation as in the article of justification before God, as the apostle testifies with clear words, when he writes as follows: Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin, Rom. 4, 6ff And again: By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast, Eph. 2, 8. 9."
Epitome of the Formula of Concord
IV. Good Works:7

[5aret]

So there is a connection between works and faith?

[SPALATIN]

So there is a connection between works and faith?

Yes! but it is faith and Love that begets works and not vice versa.

[5aret]

In the Catholic Faith, we believe that works without faith is dead and faith without works is also dead.

[SPALATIN]

In the Catholic Faith, we believe that works without faith is dead and faith without works is also dead.

But can works alone beget faith? I don't think so.

[5aret]

If someone does works and has no faith, they do not have salvation.

[Protoevangel]

I suppose the difference is how we see the relationship between faith, justification and works. For the Lutheran, everything is an outpouring of the gift from God called faith.

:sick: Faith + Works = Justification
This is the false model of Salvation that the Lutheran would reject.

:clap: Faith = Justification + Works
This is closer to the way the Lutheran understand the relationship: we are given faith by God, which causes our Justification, and will also lead to the doing of works in gratitude. If there are no works, then that which is prior to works is missing; the faith is dead.

[5aret]

Well, if someone did not do any works in either Catholic or Lutheran churchs, you would have no salvation either way, right?

[Protoevangel]

Well, if someone did not do any works in either Catholic or Lutheran churchs, you would have no salvation either way, right?
While I am no one to be judging another's Salvation (similar to Romans 14:4), things do not look to good.

Now, the question comes up, 5aret, what kinds of works do you require to see someone perform before you will consider him or her "saved"?

[5aret]

While I am no one to be judging another's Salvation (similar to Romans 14:4), things do not look to good.

Now, the question comes up, 5aret, what kinds of works do you require to see someone perform before you will consider him or her "saved"?

As Catholics, we believe that works must happen in a state of Grace. This means that you must first believe in Christ as your personal lord and savior, and than do good works not to nessasarily get to heaven, but just do good works to serve and love God. Good works are anything from obeying God, to praying ,to taking the Eucharist. In order to be saved you would have to accept Jesus as you lord and savior, repent from your sins, and try to have Jesus take a hold of your life, and try to serve and obey God. (by doing good works.)

[BigNorsk]

In order to be saved you would have to accept Jesus as you lord and savior, repent from your sins, and try to have Jesus take a hold of your life, and try to serve and obey God. (by doing good works.)

The difference would be that what you need to do to be saved is literally nothing. It is God's grace not something we do. Everything else you speak of flows from the result of one being saved, but has nothing to do with whether one is saved. Salvation is not a process.

One cannot produce one' salvation, one cannot even cooperate with one's salvation.

The only thing that man can do is reject salvation.

There is nothing we can do to gain salvation, it is of the pure grace of God. It is Christ's merit, not our own that produces salvation.

When we hear the gospel, the Holy Spirit kindles faith in us. This faith lay's hold of the pure grace of God in Christ, and this, and this alone saves or justifies a person.

This saving grace produces good works, but the works do not in any way produce or contribute to one's salvation. To speak of good works and salvation at the same time tends just to confuse the issue. It starts out with good works comes from God's grace that produces our salvation, then it flows to such works will always be present, then to you better look to your works to see if you are saved, to you better be doing good works to prove your salvation. You end up right back under a law that you do good works in order to earn your salvation, which is all wrong.

The only good works required for salvation are Christ's.

Marv

[5aret]

Yes, I agree with you fully. But if someone is not doing good works and only bad works, is that a sign of his or her belief slipping away?

[Qoheleth]

Faith = Justification + Works

This is closer to the way the Lutheran understand the relationship: we are given faith by God, which causes our Justification, and will also lead to the doing of works in gratitude. If there are no works, then that which is prior to works is missing; the faith is dead.

Never have been crazy about equations. I'd rather say that faith embraces God's justification of us - his vindication of His promises to us by Christ's death and resurrection - and the person who has this faith does all manner of good works. Further, since the very nature of the salvation offered to us is participation in the age to come already in this age (where love is, where forgiveness reigns, where kindness rules, where prayer is constant and thanksgiving and repentence is unending), to speak of faith "saving" but not actually bringing us to participate in that future life (no matter how weakly) is to speak utter nonsense.

Q

[5aret]

So someone could be saved without works but only faith?

[SPALATIN]

So someone could be saved without works but only faith?



8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


Scripture says it clearly.

[5aret]

So hitler could go to heaven if he was a Christian and believed in Christ as his personal lord and savior?

[Protoevangel]

Never have been crazy about equations.
Agreed. No equation can capture the unmitigated magnificence of the Grace of God. I was trying an oversimplification to attempt to help 5aret understand what had already been explained to him in numerous other forms.

I'd rather say that faith embraces God's justification of us - his vindication of His promises to us by Christ's death and resurrection - and the person who has this faith does all manner of good works. Further, since the very nature of the salvation offered to us is participation in the age to come already in this age (where love is, where forgiveness reigns, where kindness rules, where prayer is constant and thanksgiving and repentence is unending), to speak of faith "saving" but not actually bringing us to participate in that future life (no matter how weakly) is to speak utter nonsense.
:confused: Has this actually been said? If it has, i must have read right past it. My only assertion has been that it is not the participation in the future life that causes (even in a small way) Justification.

[filosofer]

As Catholics, we believe that works must happen in a state of Grace. This means that you must first believe in Christ as your personal lord and savior, and than do good works not to nessasarily get to heaven, but just do good works to serve and love God. Good works are anything from obeying God, to praying ,to taking the Eucharist. In order to be saved you would have to accept Jesus as you lord and savior, repent from your sins, and try to have Jesus take a hold of your life, and try to serve and obey God. (by doing good works.)


You might want to study RCC teaching a little more on these points, because your statement above does not agree with official RCC teaching.

Also, how is a person justified according to RCC teaching?

[5aret]

Works and Faith

[5aret]

I. Justification



<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect2chpt3art8.htm#734\")>734</a></p>")">1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us "the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ" and through Baptism:34 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#34)



But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves as dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.35 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#35)


1988 Through the power of the Holy Spirit we take part in Christ's Passion by dying to sin, and in his Resurrection by being born to a new life; we are members of his Body which is the Church, branches grafted onto the vine which is himself:36 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#36)




[God] gave himself to us through his Spirit. By the participation of the Spirit, we become communicants in the divine nature. . . . For this reason, those in whom the Spirit dwells are divinized.37


1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus' proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."38 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#38) Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. "Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man."39 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#39)

1990 Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ. Righteousness (or "justice") here means the rectitude of divine love. With justification, faith, hope, and charity are poured into our hearts, and obedience to the divine will is granted us.

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men. Justification is conferred in Baptism, the sacrament of faith. It conforms us to the righteousness of God, who makes us inwardly just by the power of his mercy. Its purpose is the glory of God and of Christ, and the gift of eternal life:40 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#40)



But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from law, although the law and the prophets bear witness to it, the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, they are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as an expiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins; it was to prove at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies him who has faith in Jesus.41 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#41)


<1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God's grace and man's freedom. On man's part it is expressed by the assent of faith to the Word of God, which invites him to conversion, and in the cooperation of charity with the prompting of the Holy Spirit who precedes and preserves his assent:




When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.42


1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God's love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit. It is the opinion of St. Augustine that "the justification of the wicked is a greater work than the creation of heaven and earth," because "heaven and earth will pass away but the salvation and justification of the elect . . . will not pass away."43 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#43) He holds also that the justification of sinners surpasses the creation of the angels in justice, in that it bears witness to a greater mercy.

1995 The Holy Spirit is the master of the interior life. By giving birth to the "inner man,"44 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#44) justification entails the sanctification of his whole being:



Just as you once yielded your members to impurity and to greater and greater iniquity, so now yield your members to righteousness for sanctification. . . . But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life.45


II. Grace




1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.46 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#46)

1997 Grace is a participation in the life of God. It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church.

1998 This vocation to eternal life is supernatural. It depends entirely on God's gratuitous initiative, for he alone can reveal and give himself. It surpasses the power of human intellect and will, as that of every other creature.47 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#47)

1999 The grace of Christ is the gratuitous gift that God makes to us of his own life, infused by the Holy Spirit into our soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it. It is the sanctifying or deifying grace received in Baptism. It is in us the source of the work of sanctification:48 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#48)



Therefore if any one is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold, the new has come. All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself.49 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#49)


2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God's call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God's interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.


2001 The preparation of man for the reception of grace is already a work of grace. This latter is needed to arouse and sustain our collaboration in justification through faith, and in sanctification through charity. God brings to completion in us what he has begun, "since he who completes his work by cooperating with our will began by working so that we might will it:"50 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#50)



Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.51 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#51)

2002 God's free initiative demands man's free response, for God has created man in his image by conferring on him, along with freedom, the power to know him and love him. The soul only enters freely into the communion of love. God immediately touches and directly moves the heart of man. He has placed in man a longing for truth and goodness that only he can satisfy. The promises of "eternal life" respond, beyond all hope, to this desire:





If at the end of your very good works . . ., you rested on the seventh day, it was to foretell by the voice of your book that at the end of our works, which are indeed "very good" since you have given them to us, we shall also rest in you on the sabbath of eternal life.52 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#52)


<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt2sect1.htm#1108\")>1108</a></p><p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt2sect1chpt1art2.htm#1127\")>1127</a></p><p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect2chpt3art9p2.htm#799\")>799-801</a></p>")">2003 Grace is first and foremost the gift of the Spirit who justifies and sanctifies us. But grace also includes the gifts that the Spirit grants us to associate us with his work, to enable us to collaborate in the salvation of others and in the growth of the Body of Christ, the Church. There are sacramental graces, gifts proper to the different sacraments. There are furthermore special graces, also called charisms after the Greek term used by St. Paul and meaning "favor," "gratuitous gift," "benefit."53 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#53) Whatever their character—sometimes it is extraordinary, such as the gift of miracles or of tongues—charisms are oriented toward sanctifying grace and are intended for the common good of the Church. They are at the service of charity which builds up the Church.54 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#54)


2004 Among the special graces ought to be mentioned the graces of state that accompany the exercise of the responsibilities of the Christian life and of the ministries within the Church:



Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; he who teaches, in his teaching; he who exhorts, in his exhortation; he who contributes, in liberality; he who gives aid, with zeal; he who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness.55 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#55)


2005 Since it belongs to the supernatural order, grace escapes our experience and cannot be known except by faith. We cannot therefore rely on our feelings or our works to conclude that we are justified and saved.56 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#56) However, according to the Lord's words—"Thus you will know them by their fruits"57 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#57)—reflection on God's blessings in our life and in the lives of the saints offers us a guarantee that grace is at work in us and spurs us on to an ever greater faith and an attitude of trustful poverty.




A pleasing illustration of this attitude is found in the reply of St. Joan of Arc to a question posed as a trap by her ecclesiastical judges: "Asked if she knew that she was in God's grace, she replied: ‘If I am not, may it please God to put me in it; if I am, may it please God to keep me there.'"58 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#58)

[5aret]

III. Merit



You are glorified in the assembly of your Holy Ones, for in crowning their merits you are crowning your own gifts.59 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#59)
<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt3sect1chpt1art2.htm#1723\")>1723</a></p><p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt3sect1chpt1art7.htm#1807\")>1807</a></p>")">2006 The term "merit" refers in general to the recompense owed by a community or a society for the action of one of its members, experienced either as beneficial or harmful, deserving reward or punishment. Merit is relative to the virtue of justice, in conformity with the principle of equality which governs it.

<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect1.htm#42\")>42</a></p>")">2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.

<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect2chpt1art1p4.htm#306\")>306</a></p><p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect1chpt3.htm#155\")>155</a></p><p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect2chpt3art9p6.htm#970\")>970</a></p>")">2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit.

<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect2chpt2art4p2.htm#604\")>604</a></p>")">2009 Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us "co-heirs" with Christ and worthy of obtaining "the promised inheritance of eternal life."60 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#60) The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness.61 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#61) "Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due. . . . Our merits are God's gifts."62 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#62)

<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#1998\")>1998</a></p>")">2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.

<A href="javascript:OpenPopupWindow("<p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.htm#492\")>492</a></p><p><a href=# onclick=window.opener.SetPage(\"pt2sect2chpt2.htm#1460\")>1460</a></p>")">2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

After earth's exile, I hope to go and enjoy you in the fatherland, but I do not want to lay up merits for heaven. I want to work for your love alone. . . . In the evening of this life, I shall appear before you with empty hands, for I do not ask you, Lord, to count my works. All our justice is blemished in your eyes. I wish, then, to be clothed in your own justice and to receive from your love the eternal possession of yourself.63 (http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt3sect1chpt3art2.htm#63)