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C.F.W. Walther
24th July 2005, 03:38 PM
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but the question keeps comming up whether we at LCMS are still evanelical. Here's an aritcle by Dr Kurt Marquart:

LUTHERAN CHURCH MISSOURI SYNOD MAY CEASE TO BE A TRUE EVANGELICAL CHURCH.
Placing human regulations above God's word


"Unless these tragic lapses into medieval legalism are corrected and reversed, our Synod (The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod ed.) will cease to be an evangelical church," writes Dr. Kurt Marquart, a professor at the LCMS's Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne, Indiana, in the June, 2005 Reporter.
Marquart and other conservatives in the LCMS have been complaining that the LCMS is beginning to follow the liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and other denominations who have long placed human regulations above God's Word. Most LCMS pastors, like pastors of other denominations, have not been informing laymen about what has I been going on theologically within their denominations.
Dr. Wallace Schulz, who was removed by liberals from his position as Lutheran Hour speaker and Second Vice President of the LCMS, has similarly deplored the placing of man's word above God's Word in the LCMS. He wrote in an official report:
"Through the erroneous dependence on man made documents, some leaders of the LCMS have now forced our beloved Synod into the greatest crisis in its history." Schultz's entire report is in Crisis in Christendom - Seminex Ablaze, a 510 page book published by Christian News, $16.95. Schulz says that LCMS President Jerry Kieschnick, who has been defending liberals in the LCMS, is responsible for much of the divisiveness in the LCMS.
Marquart writes in the June Reporter:
A new pattern? The LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations' "guide to district presidents dealing with 'state of confession' protests" (May '05) regrettably shows a new pattern in our Synod that puts human regulations ahead of God's Word. God forbids giving the Holy Supper to an impenitent public errorist Yet someone who obeys this prohibition faithfully is to be treated in the same way as one who, contrary to God's Word, practices "open communion".
Then there is the notion of "ecclesiastical supervisor" invented by the Synod's Commission on Constitutional Matters (COM). A pastor cannot be disciplined for participating in a joint service with official representatives of pagan religions if his "ecclesiastical supervisor" pretends that it is not a joint service! Further, the 2004 syncdical Handbook attributes papal infallibility to the CCM and the CTCR by stating that dispute-resolution panels "must follow" their opinions.
The Reformation understood that only God's Word can bind Christian consciences. Accordingly, the founders of our Synod refused to mix human regulations with God's Word, but made only that Word binding and decisive. The Lord Himself said, "they worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men" (Matt 15:9). Unless these tragic lapses into medieval legalism are corrected and reversed, our Synod will cease to be an evangelical church.

Rev. Kurt E. Marquart
Concordia Theological Seminary FortWayne,Ind.

ctobola
24th July 2005, 04:02 PM
Radido,

This sounds like an important issue for LCMS members, but I don't think most of us from ELCA/ELCIC side probably can (and should) comment on this -- it's really an internal issue.

Maybe the thread should be moved to the LCMS/WELS group?

Just a thought.

In Christ, -Cloy



I'm not trying to beat a dead horse but the question keeps comming up whether we at LCMS are still evanelical. Here's an aritcle by Dr Kurt Marquart:

LUTHERAN CHURCH MISSOURI SYNOD MAY CEASE TO BE A TRUE EVANGELICAL CHURCH.
Placing human regulations above God's word


"Unless these tragic lapses into medieval legalism are corrected and reversed, our Synod (The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod ed.) will cease to be an evangelical church," writes Dr. Kurt Marquart, a professor at the LCMS's Concordia Theological Seminary, Ft. Wayne, Indiana, in the June, 2005 Reporter.
Marquart and other conservatives in the LCMS have been complaining that the LCMS is beginning to follow the liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America and other denominations who have long placed human regulations above God's Word. Most LCMS pastors, like pastors of other denominations, have not been informing laymen about what has I been going on theologically within their denominations.
Dr. Wallace Schulz, who was removed by liberals from his position as Lutheran Hour speaker and Second Vice President of the LCMS, has similarly deplored the placing of man's word above God's Word in the LCMS. He wrote in an official report:
"Through the erroneous dependence on man made documents, some leaders of the LCMS have now forced our beloved Synod into the greatest crisis in its history." Schultz's entire report is in Crisis in Christendom - Seminex Ablaze, a 510 page book published by Christian News, $16.95. Schulz says that LCMS President Jerry Kieschnick, who has been defending liberals in the LCMS, is responsible for much of the divisiveness in the LCMS.
Marquart writes in the June Reporter:
A new pattern? The LCMS Commission on Theology and Church Relations' "guide to district presidents dealing with 'state of confession' protests" (May '05) regrettably shows a new pattern in our Synod that puts human regulations ahead of God's Word. God forbids giving the Holy Supper to an impenitent public errorist Yet someone who obeys this prohibition faithfully is to be treated in the same way as one who, contrary to God's Word, practices "open communion".
Then there is the notion of "ecclesiastical supervisor" invented by the Synod's Commission on Constitutional Matters (COM). A pastor cannot be disciplined for participating in a joint service with official representatives of pagan religions if his "ecclesiastical supervisor" pretends that it is not a joint service! Further, the 2004 syncdical Handbook attributes papal infallibility to the CCM and the CTCR by stating that dispute-resolution panels "must follow" their opinions.
The Reformation understood that only God's Word can bind Christian consciences. Accordingly, the founders of our Synod refused to mix human regulations with God's Word, but made only that Word binding and decisive. The Lord Himself said, "they worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men" (Matt 15:9). Unless these tragic lapses into medieval legalism are corrected and reversed, our Synod will cease to be an evangelical church.

Rev. Kurt E. Marquart
Concordia Theological Seminary FortWayne,Ind.

ByzantineDixie
24th July 2005, 04:09 PM
Actually, the article mentions that the LCMS is going the way of the ELCA so it seems to me that the ELCA may want to comment on that. They may want to say..."hey, come on in, the water's fine" or "no way is the LCMS like us nor are they ever likely to be like us".

Protoevangel
24th July 2005, 05:01 PM
You know, if the ELCA does split over issues in the coming months. I know a number of LCMS churches that have open invitations to ELCA members.

What do y'all think about that?

If the LCMS is already moving towards the more liberal side, will not a relatively large influx of ex-ELCA membership notably influence that move? Even if the ex-ELCA people who come are more conservative than the average person in the ELCA, they are probably more liberal than the average LCMS member.

C.F.W. Walther
24th July 2005, 05:19 PM
Even if the ex-ELCA people who come are more conservative than the average person in the ELCA, they are probably more liberal than the average LCMS member.

What about "Word ALone" within ELCA who claims to be confessional Lutherans? If there is another thread on Word Alone I'd like to read it. Can't seem to find it.








:)

filosofer
24th July 2005, 05:23 PM
Interestingly, Word Alone still permits women pastors. That has been a problem for those in WA who inquire about TAALC membership, since TAALC does not permit women pastors.

ctobola
24th July 2005, 05:31 PM
The Word Alone website is http://www.wordalone.org/

The site for Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ is http://www.lcmc.net/

-Cloy

What about "Word ALone" within ELCA who claims to be confessional Lutherans? If there is another thread on Word Alone I'd like to read it. Can't seem to find it.








:)

ByzantineDixie
24th July 2005, 05:39 PM
You know, if the ELCA does split over issues in the coming months. I know a number of LCMS churches that have open invitations to ELCA members.

What do y'all think about that?

I don't think an influx of ex-ELCA members can do any more damage to the LCMS. The damage has already been done. Today we read about Stephen in bible study...and there was Saul as part of the group responsible for his death. God turned Saul around...miracles do happen. Maybe God will right the LCMS ship...but that's what it will take...a miracle.

If the LCMS is already moving towards the more liberal side, will not a relatively large influx of ex-ELCA membership notably influence that move? Even if the ex-ELCA people who come are more conservative than the average person in the ELCA, they are probably more liberal than the average LCMS member.

LOL!!! Our music director is former ELCA. His role has just expanded to involve more teaching and caregiving. I had to quit taking his Caregiving class because so much being taught was just flat out theologically at odds with confessional Lutheranism. And there have been many other instances where his theological understandings have been contrary to what Lutherans believe. (His eschatological views are not amillennial but are more aligned with the "Left Behind" gang.) OK...so have I anecdotally proven your point? Not in the least!!! With the exception of one other person in our congregation NO ONE even knew he was off base!!! He fit right in. The LCMS is ripe for the influx.

I hear there is yet another group of "break away" LCMS congregations getting together to form their own new synod. To steal a phrase...I guess this will be the "This Time We'll Get it Right" (TTWGIR) Synod. Hey...maybe we should get those guys a subforum. :P

filosofer
24th July 2005, 06:50 PM
LOL!!! Our music director is former ELCA. His role has just expanded to involve more teaching and caregiving. I had to quit taking his Caregiving class because so much being taught was just flat out theologically at odds with confessional Lutheranism. And there have been many other instances where his theological understandings have been contrary to what Lutherans believe. (His eschatological views are not amillennial but are more aligned with the "Left Behind" gang.) OK...so have I anecdotally proven your point? Not in the least!!! With the exception of one other person in our congregation NO ONE even knew he was off base!!! He fit right in. The LCMS is ripe for the influx.

This breaks my heart. I have to ask - (not for your benefit, Rose) Where are the pastors? Why are they not teaching?


I hear there is yet another group of "break away" LCMS congregations getting together to form their own new synod. To steal a phrase...I guess this will be the "This Time We'll Get it Right" (TTWGIR) Synod. Hey...maybe we should get those guys a subforum. :P

Ah, no thanks. I know one of them. He would not be anywhere close to what I understand Confessional Lutheran theology. He demonstrates many of the worst features in the "ultra-right wing extreme". If they want TTWGIR Synod, more power to them. They will certainly need God's extra mercy (as we all do!).

C.F.W. Walther
24th July 2005, 07:08 PM
The Word Alone website is http://www.wordalone.org/

The site for Lutheran Congregations in Mission for Christ is http://www.lcmc.net/

-Cloy

Actually I meant a thread on that subject on our Christian forum here.