Freemasonry and fundamentalism [Archive]

cwebber

1st August 2005, 11:44 PM

Since it's always going to be debated about the beliefs of the freemasons, I think the basis of the question should lie on the fact

First if you are going to say we should relie on the Facts, You should at first Present them.

Is Freemasonry a Secert Fraternal Order.

Lets look at the Facts. To be Secret you would concel you existance.

a. You can find the number and address to Masonic Lodges in Phone Books
b. There are big signs stating that the building is a Masonic Lodge
c. The Some of the Grand Lodge meeting are made Public.
d. You have guys driving around in little cars or go karts stating who they are and what Lodge they belong to.
e. You have public anouncements in newspapers for example: Pancake breakfasts or fish frys at Masonic Lodges to benifit someone ot a Hospitality House.
f. Freemaosnry publicly helped Habitat for Humanity to build Houses.

g. Freemasons publicly while on TV helped build a House in Joiner, TN for a person who lost there home due to a Tornado.

So here we have 5 instances were Freemasonry makes public its meetings and activities. So Secret socity no I don't think so.

which is forbidden by God.

We is it forbidden to help others, What was We should brag about the things we do but let God have the Glory.

Let your light shine and your actions be open for all to see the fruits of your spirit.

I believe this should cover it which Freemasonry does publicly and openly not in Secret:

Shrine Burn Centers (Free Medical care for Kids)

Scottish Rite Equipment Fund (Free Wheelchairs,cruches and other equipment Free)

York Rite Eye Foundation (Helps Kids and others to See)

Blue Lodge Scholarship (Provides money to a High Schooler going to College)

Hospitality Houses (Provides Free Room and board for anyone living 30 to 50 miles away from the Hospital who has a loved one there)

Here's some more
COMMUNITY SERVICE PROGRAMS

HABITAT FOR HUMANITY Partnership (http://www.gmwp.org/habitat.html)

Grand Master's Work Project (http://www.gmwp.org/)

Organ Donor Awareness Program (http://www.gmwp.org/vision2013/oda)

Veteran's Hospital Visitation Program (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/msa.htm)

Domestic Violence Shelter Serivce (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013dvss.htm)

Ronald McDonald House Assistance (http://www.gmwp.org/vision2013/rmd.html)

Hospital Hospitality House Assistance (http://www.gmwp.org/vision2013/hhh.html)

Sponsoring Blood Drives

Giving Christmas Baskets to needy

YOUTH PROGRAMS

Sponsorhip of Local Youth Athletic Teams

Sponsoring Rainbow Assemblies and DeMolay Chapters

Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, 4H Club (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/20134h.htm) activities Lodge Christmas Parties

Santa's Helpers (http://www.gmwp.org/vision2013/santashelpers.html)

SCHOOL PROGRAMS

Academic Scholarships

Sponsoring Awards for Speaking and Essay Contests

Providing Books for Local School Libraries School Literacy Program (http://www.korrnet.org/f&am/2013slp.htm)

ELDERLY ASSISTANCE

Assist with Meals on Wheels Programs

Install Smoke Detectors in Homes of Elderly Assisting elderly in Income Tax Preparation

You shall known by the Fruit you bare. Tell me is this good fruit or bad.

cwebber

1st August 2005, 11:51 PM

Freemasonry FAQs

Note Question 39

1. What is Freemasonry?
A fraternity of men dedicated to the upbuilding of moral character of its
members and the preservation of personal freedom.

2. Is Masonry a religion?
No. Every applicant must express a belief in God, but no particular
religion is required.

3. When did it start?
Informally, many centuries ago; formally in 1717 in London, England.

4. Who formed the Freemasons?
One theory is that the organization was developed by the stone masons.
Another is that the Knights Templar formed the fraternity.

5. Who were the Knights Templar?
A group formed by the Pope to protect pilgrims going to the holy land. The
Templars developed into a military group and young men took great pride in
becoming a Knight. Many people in Europe gave huge sums of money in order
that their son might be accepted as a Knight. The group became wealthy and
King Philip of France desired this wealth in order to carry on his war. In
cooperation with the Pope he accused the Templars of heresy and on October
13, 1307 many Templars were arrested, tortured for confessions of heresy,
and many died. The King confiscated their property as he had done with the
Jews in 1306.

6. Did the Knights Templar prior to 1717 take oaths of secrecy?
Yes. Their life depended upon their being faithful to their fellow Templars.

7. Do the Masons of today take these oaths?
Symbolically, yes. They are in remembrance of physical tortures imposed on
Masons during the Middle Ages.

8. How do Masons teach morality?
Rituals were developed centuries ago imploring men to be faithful and
charitable. These are taught by allegory and symbols.

9. How are these teachings enforced?
Masons who go astray are counseled by their brothers. Those who can not be
helped are expelled from the Fraternity.

10. How are Masons charitable?
In the United States Masons contribute over two million dollars a day to
charitable purposes. These funds go to the indigent for medical care, shoes,
sick room equipment, scholarships, and a wide range of other help for the
needy. Many hospitals are supported.

11. Are there Masons in other countries?
Yes. World wide, about 6 million.

12. How many Masons are there in the United States?
About 2.5 million.

13. How many Masons are there in Tennessee?
About 65,000.

14. Can a woman join the Masons?
No. But Masonry has many appendant bodies. Some are for men, some for
women some for both, some for boys, some for girls.

15. Are Shriners Masons?
Yes, but not all Masons are Shriners.

16. Are Knight Templars Masons?
Yes, but not all Masons are Knight Templars.

17. Who is the head of the Masons in the United States?
No one. Each state is independent, as a Grand Lodge. The highest officer
is the Grand Master.

18. Is there an official spokesman?
No, not for the entire fraternity. The Grand Master speaks for his Grand
Lodge.

19. Is there a head of Masons in each state?
Yes. He is called the Grand Master.

20. Is he elected for life?
No. A new one is elected each year.

21. When did Masonry come to Tennessee?
Several Lodges were formed under the jurisdiction of North Carolina. The
Grand Lodge of Tennessee was formed on December 27, 1813 in Knoxville.

22. Are the offices still in Knoxville?
No. The Grand Lodge moved to Nashville in 1817; now located at 100 7th
Avenue, North.

23. How many individual Lodges are in Tennessee?
364

24. How much does it cost to joins the Masons?
The average fee is $90.

25 How much are the annual dues?
The average is $30.

26. How old are individual Masons?
In Tennessee, at least 21 years old.

27. Is memory work required?
Yes. This relates to the procedure carried out when the man becomes a Mason.

28. Is attendance required?
No, but it is encouraged.

29. How long does it take for one to become a Mason?
Typically, about six months.

30. Can a Mason's wife attend Lodge?
No, but many functions are for both.

31. What notable people have been Masons?
Fourteen of the United States Presidents and many prominent people in
business and the professions.

32. What notable Tennesseans have been Masons?
Andrew Jackson, James Polk, Andrew Johnson, Roy Acuff, 28 Governors, and
many members of Congress.

33. Why are so many Masons in public office?
The ritual helps a person to gain self confidence and ease when speaking in
public. Masons are forbidden from discussing politics at Lodge meetings.

34. Is Masonry a patriotic organization?
Yes. Masons are taught to obey the laws of the country in which they
reside. In the United States, the Masons have many patriotic activities.
All meetings include the Pledge of Allegiance to the flag.

35. Do Masons become so involved that they neglect their families?
Masons are taught that they should never neglect their families or their
church. Masonry comes after these obligations are fulfilled.

36. Do Masons have a particular kind of dress?
When in Lodge meetings they wear a white apron over regular street clothes.

37. What does this signify?
Purity. The Mason is admonished to so live his life that no stain of
dishonor will show upon his apron.

38. Do Masons perform the last Rites upon the remains of a departed Brother?
When requested by the family to do so, Masons will recite the time-honored
ritual.

39. Do Masons believe that by doing good works they can gain admittance to
heaven?
No. The admittance into heaven falls in the realm of the spiritual, not the
fraternal.

40. Are black people permitted to be Masons?
Yes. There are many Prince Hall Lodges in the United States which are made
up of only black people. A few Lodges are integrated.

41. Are Holy Bibles displayed in the Lodge Hall?
Yes. In the United States this is usually the Holy Bible, but in other
countries it is the book of the predominant religion. When a person becomes
a Mason, the book of his faith is used in the ritual.

42. Has Masonry been attacked by religious groups?
Yes. Masonry has been attacked by radio and television preachers who stir
up unrest in order to sell their books and tapes. Other persons,
non-Masons who are uninformed, have also carried on hate campaigns.

43. Have these attacks been answered?
In past years Masons have ignored such talk. Recently, however, they have
responded. Also two non-Masons have recently taken the lead in answering
he critics; John J. Robinson, and Dr. Gary Leazer.

44. Are Masons permitted to solicit potential members?
No.

45. How do people learn about the fraternity?
Through the good works of the Masons.

46. How does a person gain entrance?
By asking a Mason for a petition to join.

47. Is admittance assured?
No. Only after an investigation as to the character of the person is he
voted upon.

48. If he is not accepted will the fee be returned?
Yes.

49. If accepted, what comes next?
He is asked to come for the first degree.

50. How does he learn his memory work?
A teacher is assigned to assist him.

51. What is the Scottish Rite?
A series of 29 Degrees, teaching by drama, the moral and religious
philosophies of Masonry.

52. What is the York Rite?
A system of degrees including Blue Lodge, Royal Arch, Cryptic Rite and
Knights Templar.

53. Is the Shrine part of Masonry?
Yes. When a person has become either a Scottish Rite Mason or a Knight
Templar he is eligible to become a Shriner.

e=mv^2

3rd August 2005, 10:28 AM

Faq for my pet dog:

1: Is your Dog a Dog?
No! My dog is acutally the King of England

2: Does your Dog bark?
Like I said, My dog is not a dog that he should bark. He decrees things and drinks tea.

3: Can your dog do tricks?
My dog can fly and hover like a hummingbird.

4: Who does your dog think you are?
My dog thinks that I am a giraffe that shoots pez out of my neck.

You see. A FAQ can lie.

39. Do Masons believe that by doing good works they can gain admittance to
heaven?
No. The admittance into heaven falls in the realm of the spiritual, not the
fraternal.

What does the 28th degree say?
Actually, in the 28th degree, it says, "the true Mason [is one] who raises himself by degrees till he reaches heaven."
What does it say?
"the true Mason [is one] who raises himself by degrees till he reaches heaven."
Who raises the mason?
the true Mason [is one] who raises himself
Till when?
till he reaches heaven.

Lets have a look at some other masonic texts.

"We, as Masons, believe that there is only one Supreme Being. You may refer to that Supreme Being as you please. You may ask the blessings of Jehovah, Allah, Yod, Mohammad, or any other Supreme Being that you believe in. We make no distinctions in what you believe that Supreme Being's name is. This is your preference and the preference of all Masons everywhere."

William Larson, 33° Kenton Lodge #145, Oregon USA

When addressing the Deity in prayer it should never be done in a way that excludes Brothers of other faiths and of necessity should be inclusive and universal, not sectarian or denominational.

Masonic Manual of Minnesota, p109, 1998

Masons believe that there is one God and that people employ many different ways to seek and to express what they know of God. Masons primarily uses (sic) the appellation, "Grand Architect of the Universe," and other non-sectarian titles, to address Deity. In this way, persons of different faiths may join together in prayer, concentrating on God rather than on differences among themselves. Masonry believes in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and God is personal, private, and sacred.

Masonic Manual of Minnesota, p16, 1998

You and your FAQ can say anything you like. It does not mean that anyone here is going to believe you.

More masonic text:
Masons from time immemorial
have been called “Sons of Light.” It is a peculiar
co-incidence that the Egyptian words “Phre-Massen”
mean “Children (especially Sons) of the Sun,” that is
“Sons of Light,” a term applied to those who had been
received into the Ancient Egyptian Mysteries. The
word “Phre” meant the Sun, and Mas was a child.
Masons, as Sons of Light, to this day write all
Masonic dates by adding 4,000 years to the year of the
common era. The present year Anno Domini 1941 is
expressed in Masonic circles as “Anno Lucis 5941,” that
is, “In the year of Light 5941.”

All antiquity solved the enigma of the existence of
evil by supposing the existence of a Principle of
Evil, of demons, fallen angels, an Ahriman, a Typhon,
a Siva, a Loki, or a Satan, that, first falling themselves,
and plunged into misery and darkness, tempted
man to his fall and brought sin into the world. All
6 “Morals and Dogma."
7 “Morals and Dogma."
The Spirit of Masonry XV
believed in a future life, to be attained by purification
and trials; in a state or successive states of reward
and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by
whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the
Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The
belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin
and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him
Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians,
Sosiosch: the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians,
Horus: Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the
Christians, Jesus; Masons, Hiram. It is interesting
that the “small hill west of Mount Moriah” has been
identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary. Krishna,
the Hindoo Redeemer, was cradled and educated
among shepherds. A tyrant, at the time of his birth,
ordered all the male children to be slain. He performed
miracles, say his legends, even raising the
dead. He washed the feet of the Brahmins. It was
on a cruciform tree that Krishna was said to have expired,
pierced with arrows. He descended into Hell,
rose again, ascended to Heaven, charged his disciples
to teach his doctrines, and gave them the gift of
miracles.8

Who are you going to convince here? I opened the thread with a totally neutral post. You see the responses.

Why is being a mason more important than listening to the church, other christians, and the bible? Why is being a mason more important to you?

cwebber

3rd August 2005, 12:33 PM

What does the 28th degree say?

Actually, in the 28th degree, it says, "the true Mason [is one] who raises himself by degrees till he reaches heaven."

You see this is exactly what I am talking about you are speaking about something you don't have a clue about.

Would you care to share the rest of the 28th Degree so people can see in in context?

You and your FAQ can say anything you like. It does not mean that anyone here is going to believe you.

Why not you are just provening them right. All Masons believe their is a Supreme Being. They as it states in your quote see the Supreme Being in different ways, meaning we call do not agree on who the Supreme Being is, the Muslim, Jew and Christian all agree that the God of Abraham, Jehovah is the Only God. There are those who are Masons who do not believe Jehovah is God. But they still believe there is a Supreme Being.

Who are you going to convince here? I opened the thread with a totally neutral post. You see the responses.

When are you going to present the Truth? Albert Pike does not speak for masonry, His research jas been proven to be wrong, and yet you still with delight post it.

goto www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com/) and look at the information on Albert Pike

Why is being a mason more important than listening to the church, other christians, and the bible?
It's not that is why I chech Freemasonry against Scripture it is the Guide by which all things are to be proven good or bad. Not personal opnion as many Church leaders have provided not based on Scripture I might add.

Why is being a mason more important to you?

It's not, Freemaosnry tells you that the Church and your duty you owe to God is more important than Freemasonry.

The Most important thing to me is seeing my Childern come to know Christ which both has now, And see others come to know Christ as their Savior.

As the York Rite of Freemasonry tells us
"Go forth into the World and spread the Good News of Jesus Christ and to defend Christianity"

e=mv^2

3rd August 2005, 02:50 PM

e=mv^2

3rd August 2005, 03:01 PM

From the website you listed:
Many of the 'religious intolerants' who object to Freemasonry on religious grounds seem to share common traits:

Have had a "born-again" experience which brought them to their current belief in Deity;
Believe in the literal interpretation and the absolute inerrancy of the Bible; Do not have formal training in theology or classic literature;
Are not congregants of 'traditional' religious streams;
Have had 'disputes' with local religious leaders causing them to 'leave in a huff' to be with others whom they perceive as more ideologically 'pure'.

What forum is it that you think you are in? Every one of us in here can probably check off the top 2 because they are requirements to debate here.

What does not having formal training in theology/classic literature have to do with anything? Nothing - it only serves to attempt to discredit the person - ad hominem fallacy.

What is a traditional religious stream? Mormons? Catholics?

And the last one - if a preacher was spreading liberal doctrine - you can bet that these people here would leave in a heartbeat.

more ad-hominem:
In addition, the vast majority have no post-high school education and have worked at marginal and/or non-executive jobs. They seem to have limited their reading to religious texts in agreement with their world view, immediately rejecting the ideas of those with whom they disagree.
Attacking the man - not the topic here. This in effect is saying that if you are against masonry then you are a backwoods inbred hillbilly bigot.

more:
These things in and of themselves are not uniquely problematic. There are, of course, many men and women of good-will (and with a high impression of Freemasonry) who share some of those traits. However, in addition, there are these more unsettling commonalities. They

Do not belong to a 'mainstream' religious group;
Are unwilling to publicly identify their church affiliation;
Became aware of 'the evils of Freemasonry' through some type of "ministry" which is also against a number of other groups as well (even though their objections might appear to be solely against Freemasonry);
Rely on what others have said/written rather than objectively looking at facts;
Seem to be afraid to accept that what they've understood might be wrong in the arguments against Freemasonry;
Are close followers of a charismatic leader - or totally refuse to accept the religious leadership of another person arguing that each person is a "preacher" in accordance (in their mind) with the Bible;
Have limited (if any) training in areas such as the Bible, church history, philosophy, or logic (but may consider what they've read in anti-Masonic books or tracts or heard from a self-labeled "preacher" as sufficient 'proof');
Are intolerant of other's religious beliefs and ideals, wishing to remain safe and secure in the knowledge that they have the 'ultimate answers';
Have a "spiritual advisor" and demand others identify the person whom that they have for this purpose in order to somehow 'vet' the religious beliefs held; and
Often loudly and vigorously differ with others over religious theories and interpretations.
Another common - although not universal - trait amongst this small group is a hatred of those of the Jewish faith and of people of color.

Apparently we are also anti semites and racists.

More!
Many of the arguments against Freemasonry arise from the perceived (and argued to be God-inspired) need by this 'religious intolerant' to "witness" at all times and in all places. Finding Freemasons allows one such opportunity - and particularly in the electronic world where anonymity and a potentially wide audience exists. They see it as a wonderful way to serve their religion.

Nice website cwebber. That was chock full-o-facts.

jlujan69

3rd August 2005, 05:16 PM

A friend of mine (who's a Georgia Mason) once asked me for my opinion on whether or not Christianity and Masonry were compatible. We examined one website critical of Masonry. He told me that those claims were lies. I told him that, assuming for the moment that he was correct, he needed to consider what his priorities as a Christian were versus his priorities as a Mason. Were they in conflict? I also told him he needs to realize that his accountability is to God first and then man. If Masonry tells him to do something that's in violation of God's Word (or illegal), then it's his duty to disobey that order. In summary, his duty is to God first, self and family second, church and community third, and whatever afterwards.

Since I really don't know what to believe about Masonry (having taken a cursory glance at both sides), I couldn't in good conscience tell him that it's an evil organization.

cwebber

3rd August 2005, 05:51 PM

What forum is it that you think you are in? Every one of us in here can probably check off the top 2 because they are requirements to debate here.
Again fulfilling your role to the fullest by posting out of context. The person if you would read the rest of the article is talking about People who state you must believe their way or your not right. For example I know some Baptist who believe you have to be Baptized or you will goto Hell, Or another example you an't saved unless you have spoken in tonges .These are the people the writer is talking about the ones that say you have to believe my way or you are going to hell. I hope everyone can not check of the becuase you would be a Christian intolerant of anyone who is Baptist, Methodist, Church of Christ and So on. Just because a person does not believe the exact same as you do does not mean they are going to Hell. If a person has accepted Christ tey are going to Heaven wether they are Baptist or Methodust or whatever Christ is the way to Heaven not religion.

What does not having formal training in theology/classic literature have to do with anything? Nothing - it only serves to attempt to discredit the person - ad hominem fallacy.
For example Freemasonry uses the term Worshipful Master which is from the Old English meaning Respectable Person. John Wycliff used the same term He said to Worship your Father and Mother, Translate that into Modern English you get Respect your Father and Mother. People will not bother to study the true meaning they will run with the modern meaning.

Another Example would be God told Adam and Eve to Replenish the Earth, If you take that as a Modern meaning you would assume there were people alreay here with Adam and Eve which was not the case. If you study just a little you find that during the Middle Ages Replenish ment simpley to Fill. That is what the writter is talking about not study before mouthing off about something you no nothing about.

What is a traditional religious stream? Mormons? Catholics?

Baptist, Methidest mostly Prodestant Churches. But just like any other you have a small group here and there who will deside only the people who belong to there church and believe exactly as they do will go to Heaven. These are the people the writter is talking about who state they can tell who is going to heaven or not.

And the last one - if a preacher was spreading liberal doctrine - you can bet that these people here would leave in a heartbeat.

Well if the Preacher was preaching that you can own a Slave as long as the person was not a Christian, That you need to kill homosexuals, That you can Kill anyone practicing Witch Craft and to not work with unbelievers. Yea I hope they would leave and I hope you would to because that is what the writter is talking about. Nowwhere did Jesus say to kill any one H said to Love your Neighbor, now where did Jesus say you could not work with unbelievers look at the people He worked with none of them thought He was God until after His resurrection.

cwebber

3rd August 2005, 06:02 PM

Attacking the man - not the topic here. This in effect is saying that if you are against masonry then you are a backwoods inbred hillbilly bigot.

Man you sure can read into stuff. It says they will not accept anyone who does not believe exactly as they do as a Christian or in their Church.

And that they will not try to educate themselves, But I am not sure were you got the inbred part from. Like I said you read alot into Something that is not there.

Apparently we are also anti semites and racists.

Brother if you accept it as fact that know one else can except Christ unless they believe , act and walk and talk like you than you are and I feel for you. Becaise Salvation is for everyone unlike the people this writter is descirbing they state that a Christian who is a Mason will burn in Hell. The Bible however states that if you accept Christ you will go to Heaven. You tell me who is right these people or Scripture.

Nice website cwebber. That was chock full-o-facts.

Yep it is nice if only you would read it in Context.

If you are one of those people who feel that only you and your Church and the specific way you believe are the only ones that can accept Christ than I suggest you need to read the Bible again. Romans whould be a good place to start. Chapter 10:9-10 is also a good reference on what the requirement to be a Christian are no mention of having to speak in tongue or having to belong to a certain church.

Just believing in your Heart that Jesus is Lord and that He died on the Cross for Your Sins and that He rose from the Grave and confess with your mouth that He is Lord you will be saved bottom Line.

cwebber

3rd August 2005, 06:04 PM

Since I really don't know what to believe about Masonry (having taken a cursory glance at both sides), I couldn't in good conscience tell him that it's an evil organization.

Freemasonry states that your first duty you owe to God, than your family than yourself, Church, and than if nothing else more important you do your duty in Freemaosnry, which is to help those in need.

e=mv^2

4th August 2005, 09:23 AM

Just believing in your Heart that Jesus is Lord and that He died on the Cross for Your Sins and that He rose from the Grave and confess with your mouth that He is Lord you will be saved bottom Line.

We do agree on some things cwebber (probably a lot of things really). We just have not had the opportunity to post together on anything but this one sore topic.

Can you be a mason and get into heaven - Sure.
There are alot of things that you can do that are iffy and still get into heaven. Does that mean we should do them?

1Th 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

There has been church after church after church that has come out against masonry. It has the appearance of evil. Can you question that it has the appearance of evil? The secrets - the bloody oaths - the symbols - the creeds - the mystery - the crazy writers that think lucifer is God. It has the appearance of evil. We are commanded to abstain from the appearance of evil.

I am by no means perfect. I have a hard time walking across the street without stubbing my toe on something. I do try my best to do what I see the bible commanding me tho. I can see where the bible tells me that freemasonry is not ok for me.

cwebber

4th August 2005, 10:16 AM

There has been church after church after church that has come out against masonry. It has the appearance of evil. Can you question that it has the appearance of evil?

There has been Christian after Christian that has come out in support of Masonry. You need to read a Book called Freemasonry and Fundimentlism and the Southern Baptist Convention. You will see that it is a Polictally motivaty movemeny against Freemasonry not one inspired by God.

You see when the SBC done its first report it would not accept anything that promoted Freemasonry because H Holly did not what anything that would go against his view of Freemasonry. The person who wrote the book was Dr. Gary Leazer who done the study on Freemasonry he explains what went on and there is a lot of information in the book.

The secrets - the bloody oaths - the symbols - the creeds - the mystery - the crazy writers that think lucifer is God. It has the appearance of evil. We are commanded to abstain from the appearance of evil.

You would have to hold the same view of the prodestant Movement and our Christian Fathers because that is were it comes from. The had Oaths and secrets and secret signs Fish Symbol for one. They were not evil Freemasonry seems to have been orginally setup to support the prodestant movement in MHO.

Lucifer is god is a Hoax created by a pornagrapher called the Taxil Hoax.

I am by no means perfect. I have a hard time walking across the street without stubbing my toe on something. I do try my best to do what I see the bible commanding me tho. I can see where the bible tells me that freemasonry is not ok for me.

For you my brother it may nit be do to a misunderstanding of it. You seem to take many things it says the wrong way. For example after every EA degree we tell the EA's before and reenforce it afterward that Freemasonry can not get you into Heaven, We go as so far to say that the only way is thru the Christ dying and resurrection even thou we are really not suppose to but seeing how my Lodge is made up of all professing Christians than it is not a problem.

The standard answer would be while in open Lodge that Salvetion is somethinfg you have to find out side the Lodge

e=mv^2

4th August 2005, 11:01 AM

Does it have the appearance of evil? Not to you - to someone on the street - does it appear to be evil?

cwebber

4th August 2005, 02:14 PM

Does it have the appearance of evil? Not to you - to someone on the street - does it appear to be evil?

I guess it depends on how educated they are on the isssue. I mean if you go to my local community no it does not appear evil because we openly help people give shoes to kids who don't have any. We have parades help little childern in Burn centers free of charge.

I know a few people who talk like it is a Secret organization but than that's because they never bothered to ask anyone about. It like Paul said the Ear loves to be tickled and that is how many of the bad things abbout Freemaosnry get started. Gossip that thing Paul warned us about.

by the way most of the lesson of Freemasonry are found in the New Testiment.

cwebber

4th August 2005, 09:48 PM

Freemasonry gets its lessons from 1 Cor. Ch:13, 2 Peter, Revelation, Matthew, John and so on. I mean every lesson draws from Christ even thou it is no longer a Christian only Frat these Lessons from Christ are show to others that is the beauty of Freemasonry and one of its secrets that He does point you in the right Direction.

lismore

17th August 2005, 11:06 AM

lismore

17th August 2005, 11:09 AM

Who are you going to convince? Who? Are you really trying to convince a bunch of fundamentalists that freemasonry is ok? Is that what you are actually trying to do?

Let's try this:

Does anyone here (other than the mason) think it is ok to swear an oath on the penalty of death to protect the secrets of a fraternal organization?

Does anyone here think it is ok to stand next to a muslim or hindu in prayer to "the diety"?

Hi there:wave:

I see your points.

Someone off the street would be welcome to come into my church, sit through the meeting, ask questions and find out exactly what was going on and what we believed.

Could I walk off the street and into a lodge and find similar information?

Maybe not

Lismore

cwebber

17th August 2005, 05:29 PM

Are you a freemason friend?

Yes I speak from first hand accounts of the actions I have seen and the lesson taught in Freemasonry.

I see your points.

Someone off the street would be welcome to come into my church, sit through the meeting, ask questions and find out exactly what was going on and what we believed.

Could I walk off the street and into a lodge and find similar information?

Maybe not

Lismore

You could come in off the Street and ask questions no problem with that, you can come to open meetings and ask question like our district meetings that are open to everyone, our Widows and Orphans Picnic is open to everyone you can ask questions there.

But just like with my Company you can not come in off the Street into a Business Meeting because just as Companies have Trade Secrets so do we. Ours were used at one time to keep people alive, now they are symbolic of that period in our history.

An Example: My brother works for a Robotic company if you go out in the open in the Middle East wearing a symbol of this Company you could be killed and in fact three have died already. During they middle ages Freemasons were tourtured for being Freemasons so they had secret signs so that they could know whose a mason or not in safety

Andrea77

17th August 2005, 05:29 PM

Could you please tell me were you came up with this. I am a Freemason. I belong to the York Rite of Freemasonry were we have to profess a Faith in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior before we can join the Higher Degrees.

Also we are told to go forth and Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and defend Christianity.

Tell how is this Denying Christ?????

Someone needs to do some research and remember that God holds us accountable for the False Witnessing we put on others.

www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com/)

This is a perfect book for you. I bought it and its a real eye opener for christians.

http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/0193.asp

cwebber

17th August 2005, 06:26 PM

This is a perfect book for you. I bought it and its a real eye opener for christians.

To be a Mason, you must first take an oath that is in reality a denial of Jesus Christ.
The father of modern Masonry said, "Lucifer is God!"
First off these have already been proven to be false. Second it supprizes me how many Christians are willing to believe a Pornographer over there own Christian Brother who happens to be a Mason. This Leo Taxil Hoax was started by a pornagraphfer.

http://www.masonicinfo.com/taxil.htm

For over 100 years writers of anti-Masonic books and web sites have repeated all or parts of that "quotation" without checking into its authenticity (or, knowing it to be false, repeat it regardless in their zeal to defame Freemasonry). To this day, it shadows the name of Pike who, according to Masonic author Jim Tresner and others, was a sincere and devoted Trinitarian Christian until his death.

There is also infomation about the Authur of the Book you stated on this website as well.

Andrea77

17th August 2005, 06:44 PM

Wa Wa What! a Pornographer :sick:

Are you sure it is true?

My husband was a high up Mason and he agrees with what the book says about Masonry. :)

cwebber

17th August 2005, 07:26 PM

Are you sure it is true?
Yes
Leo Taxil's confession
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/taxil_confessed.html

My husband was a high up Mason and he agrees with what the book says about Masonry.

Than your Husband should know about the York rite of Freemasonry were in the Higher Degrees we are told to go forth and Spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Defend Christianity.

Another question for you was you Husband a member of Regular Freemasonry or a group considered Clandestain by Regular Freemasonry.

Also I will add the following and you tell what God does it describe.

God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity

Made the Universe and everything in it in Six Days

Is called Jehovah

Was the God that dwelled in King Solomon's Temple

Who streches forth the Heavens as a Canopy and the Earth is His Foot Stool

God's Promise represented by a Star.

GAOTU is defined as Genesis 1:1

Which God I ask do these describe?

CoreyZallow

17th August 2005, 07:28 PM

1. Masons don't worship the devil.

2. Freemasonry has a history of anticatholicism.

3. Freemasonry is similar enough to protestantism that Catholics are not allowed to join.

The end.

cwebber, where did you get your avatar? you may as welll know that on the left is the symbol for the heretical Church Of Christ,Scientist who teach that everything but God is an illusion and they also deny the trinity, and Mary Baker Eddy practically called Jesus a liar (she said "You cannot trust nor believe Him when He said "I and my Father are One"). On the right is the symbol for Torah.

e=mv^2

17th August 2005, 07:29 PM

Still think that there is no appearance of evil?

Andrea77

17th August 2005, 07:33 PM

Another question for you was you Husband a member of Regular Freemasonry or a group considered Clandestain by Regular Freemasonry.

He was a Mason in Scotland I think it encludes The Scottish right. He tells me horrible storeys about it.

cwebber

17th August 2005, 07:40 PM

cwebber, where did you get your avatar? you may as welll know that on the left is the symbol for the heretical Church Of Christ,Scientist who teach that everything but God is an illusion and they also deny the trinity, and Mary Baker Eddy practically called Jesus a liar (she said "You cannot trust nor believe Him when He said "I and my Father are One"). On the right is the symbol for Torah.

I created the Avatar myself as my Mark sense I am a Mark Master Mason. The Cross and Crown you are refering to represents the Cross that my Savior Jesus Christ died on for my Sins. The Crown represents the Crown that He is indeed King of Kings Lord of Lords and that someday I will those my Crown at His feet. That is what it stands for my Savior Jesus Christ the King. On the Right is the Symbol for Jah the abbreviated name of Jehovah used by King David because God's names is so important.

Does it stll appear Evil?

cwebber

17th August 2005, 07:41 PM

He was a Mason in Scotland I think it encludes The Scottish right. He tells me horrible storeys about it.

No maam it does not include the Scottish Rite it is a appendage of Freemasonry's Blue Lodge which is the First three to four Degrees (In UK)

CoreyZallow

17th August 2005, 11:41 PM

I created the Avatar myself as my Mark sense I am a Mark Master Mason. The Cross and Crown you are refering to represents the Cross that my Savior Jesus Christ died on for my Sins. The Crown represents the Crown that He is indeed King of Kings Lord of Lords and that someday I will those my Crown at His feet. That is what it stands for my Savior Jesus Christ the King. On the Right is the Symbol for Jah the abbreviated name of Jehovah used by King David because God's names is so important.

Does it stll appear Evil?

No, I never said it is evil. It looks very nice. I just wanted to see if you are aware of those symbols just out of pure curiousity and I wanted to see if that was your original intent for the meaning of it.
Seriously, it looks very beautiful. You did a great job. :thumbsup:

AndreasE

26th August 2005, 07:52 AM

Hank Hanegraaf's ministry, the Christian Research Institute, has a couple of articles on the incompatibility of Freemasonry and orthodox Christianity. he especially questions the SBC's decision of support. Search equip.org for "freemasonry" and you will find the articles. (Sorry, can't post the link as I don't have enough posts yet.)

Here's a quote in regards to the SBC:

"In its six-page Report, the Baptist Home Mission Board listed numerous reasons why it is wrong for a Christian to be a member of the Masonic Lodge. For example, it cited several illustrations from the first three degrees of Masonry (the Blue Lodge degrees) concerning the taking of bloody oaths by the Masonic initiate. It warned, "Even though these oaths, obligations and rituals may or may not be taken seriously by the initiate, it is inappropriate for a Christian to 'sincerely promise and swear,' with the hand on the Holy Bible, any such promises or oaths, or to participate in any such pagan rituals" (emphases added).3 The Report also stated, "Many tenets and teachings of Freemasonry are not compatible with Christianity and Southern Baptist doctrine...," and again cited examples such as the teachings of salvation by personal character/good works and the doctrine of universalism.4

In fact, both the Study and the Report offered solid reasons why Masonry and Christianity are incompatible and why Christians shouldn't participate in the Lodge. But then, illogically, they gave the contradictory advice that membership in a Masonic Order should be a matter of personal conscience. In what follows I demonstrate the problems with this conclusion."

I have personally been interested in becoming a freemason, because of the charity and brotherhood, yet after further reading into it, I could not, mostly because of the universalism.

I forgot which radio program it was, but I heard that freemasonry actually did start out as a Christian organization, yet some fundamental change happened in, if I recall correctly, the late 19th century, causing the true Christians to leave in droves. I wish I had more information on it on hand.

cwebber

27th August 2005, 10:38 AM

Hank Hanegraaf's ministry, the Christian Research Institute, has a couple of articles on the incompatibility of Freemasonry and orthodox Christianity. he especially questions the SBC's decision of support. Search equip.org for "freemasonry" and you will find the articles. (Sorry, can't post the link as I don't have enough posts yet.)

Yes CRI has some information on Freemasonry. But again the Information is from the study of John Weldon and John Ankerburg which has been proven to be a Deliberate Fraud. I have spoke with CRI represenitves they have told me they have not really studied Freemasonry. So I asked them to do an indenpendant Study of Freemasonry and I have not heard a responce from them. These was before their move to Charolette, NC.

Again I Love CRI and that is why I asked them to research Freemasonry for themselves so that they to do not fall into the False claims that John Ankerburg and John Weldon have laid down. Becuase it henders the Witness of CRI as a truthful and trust worthy orginization when they promote unknowingly the Deliberate Lies of others.

I have personally been interested in becoming a freemason, because of the charity and brotherhood, yet after further reading into it, I could not, mostly because of the universalism.

If you are interested than I suggest you read Fundimentlism and Freemasonry the Southern Baptist Covention by Dr. Gary Leazer he was one of the Researchers for the Home Mision Board who latter became a Mason after studying it.

BigNorsk

27th August 2005, 01:49 PM

The basic incompatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity is that Freemasonry is a Unitarian or Universalist organization. You must believe in God, but just about any God is fine. That many lodges do indeed use the Bible is only a reflection of where there are located and what many in that lodge would use. If they were in an Arab country they would use the Quran just as they would use the Bible in this country.

So Freemasonry conflicts with the basic tenant of Christianity that there is no way to God except through Jesus Christ. They would, as an organization hold that there are many ways, all equally valid.

It's a pretty good thing to study a bit these days because you hear all the time how so many of the founding fathers of the US were Christians and how the US was founded on Christian values, but actually many of the founding fathers were Unitarians or Universalists or even Deists, and so they really would have agree with Freemasonry that it doesn't much matter which religion or supreme being you believe in. It is interesting because much of the talk about our country being founded on Christian principles is coming from the mouths of people who belong to the Freemasons or other, similar organizations. And I notice a lot of Fundamentalists eating it all up and supporting Unitarians as Christians.

Marv

MagusAlbertus

27th August 2005, 02:07 PM

Still think that there is no appearance of evil?

See.. this is my sticking point

I’m sure you’ve got a good evangelical heart Cewebber, but in that you should realize that belonging to a frat is something that has all the appearance of impropriety of eating food sacrificed to and idol did in Paul’s time. I know you want to be a good witness but if your membership caused someone to stumble in Christ would you leave the organization?

Now, I know you’ve had a lot of arguments against you, this isn’t one of them, I’m honestly trying to have a discussion, so don’t take my points are argumentative, simply friendly chat. You say that the higher levels of masons are evangelical Christian… but you say nothing of the lower levels but to dismiss them…

You have to take an organization, and support there in, as a whole. You can say scientologists are doing good work by helping people with there psychological problems, but that they pay 100k to speak to there space-alien leader totally destroys the “good works” factor of the church.

Similarly you can have the top 50% be required to be evangelical, but if the base is part of an organization that’s gaining the blessings of Christ without coming to Christ then your probably helping lead people astray / become complacent with there non-Christian faith.

cwebber

27th August 2005, 04:02 PM

Bignorsk

basic incompatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity is that Freemasonry is a Unitarian or Universalist organization. You must believe in God, but just about any God is fine. That many lodges do indeed use the Bible is only a reflection of where there are located and what many in that lodge would use. If they were in an Arab country they would use the Quran just as they would use the Bible in this country.

Freemasonry is not universal that is a common misunderstanding. There are certian religious groups that are not permitted to join Freemasonry. In some states anyone who's religion promote poligamy are not allowed to join Freemasonry. I would point out in most Muslim States Freemasonry is illegal to join and you could be killed for being a Mason. I have asked many Muslims on the internet about this and there reason for it being this way was because Muslims see Freemasonry as being too Christian. There are Lodges in Muslim nations but they are only in the Moderate Muslim nations and from what I here the Bible is still on the Altar with the Koran next to it. In Israel the Bible, Torah and Koran are on the Altar. Freemasonry only declares the Bible as the Rule and Guide of Freemasonry not the Koran.

So Freemasonry conflicts with the basic tenant of Christianity that there is no way to God except through Jesus Christ. They would, as an organization hold that there are many ways, all equally valid.

Actually Freemasonry does not say there is anyway to God that you have to seek Him for your self that it can not get you there. But it does tell you the the Bible will show you the way. So your statement is False.

It's a pretty good thing to study a bit these days because you hear all the time how so many of the founding fathers of the US were Christians and how the US was founded on Christian values, but actually many of the founding fathers were Unitarians or Universalists or even Deists, and so they really would have agree with Freemasonry that it doesn't much matter which religion or supreme being you believe in. It is interesting because much of the talk about our country being founded on Christian principles is coming from the mouths of people who belong to the Freemasons or other, similar organizations. And I notice a lot of Fundamentalists eating it all up and supporting Unitarians as Christians.

I believe you need to Study more, start with Dr. D. James Kennedy and the info He has on our Founding Fathers, Also I would study more on Freemasonry as well as you need a better understanding of it. www.masonicinfo.com (http://www.masonicinfo.com)

cwebber

27th August 2005, 04:30 PM

I’m sure you’ve got a good evangelical heart Cewebber, but in that you should realize that belonging to a frat is something that has all the appearance of impropriety of eating food sacrificed to and idol did in Paul’s time. I know you want to be a good witness but if your membership caused someone to stumble in Christ would you leave the organization?
I have heard this argument before and my Boss who is a non-Mason put it this way. Me driving my Car back and forth to work would cause someone to stumble in Christ because I am not being a good steward of the Earth and that I should Car pool or get a Hybrid car.

Another example is I like to listen to Christian Rock. Alot of people around here do not like it one bit. Christian Rock on the other hand reaches the younger Generation. So should I for go reaching the younger Generation for Christ because it makes a Christian Stumble. I think not the real problem is education people need to be educated on these issues. I am not trying to reach Christian for Christ I am going after those who do not know Him with Christian Rock even thou some of my Christian Brothers think because it is to much like the World's Music and it may cause them to stumble but the Lost Souls are more important to me that whether or not the OPNION of my Christian Brother thinks Christian Rock is Wrong. In much the same way thru Freemaosnry I am able to reach people thru my actions to Christ. Even thou my Christian Brother think that working with someone who is not a Christian is wrong in their OPNION but it is not aginst God's Word.

Now, I know you’ve had a lot of arguments against you, this isn’t one of them, I’m honestly trying to have a discussion, so don’t take my points are argumentative, simply friendly chat. You say that the higher levels of masons are evangelical Christian… but you say nothing of the lower levels but to dismiss them…

The Lower Levels are there to get you to Think they are Christian but the basic of Christianity on how to Threat people with compassion and Brotherly Love and does not go into the realm of Salavtion other than to tell you the bible is were you need to look and that you can not get into Heaven if you have sinned.

The Three Degrees of Freemasonry teach you the following thru Morality Plays.

1st Degree you learn about Charity and Brotherly Love that you should always be willing to help anyone you find in the World. And that God can not have Sin in Heaven with Him and the Only way someone while be able to enter Heaven is if they do not have Sin in their Life. Freemaosnry does not tell you how to be with out Sin. It tells you that only thru Divine Providence is it possible.

You learn that God has a Plan, But it does not tell you what it is.

The 2nd Degree you find that you shouls always Threat people with Love and Kindness because you never know when you are entertaining Angels. And you learn the God is in Threefold Aspect of the Trinity.

The 3rd you learn that all men will Die and will stand before the Great White Thru big and small rich and poor all will be equal before God all you deeds will not be hidden before Him all are laid out.

Note: This Degree was not in Freemaosnry until 1725 and was placed there by a Christian Minister

You have to take an organization, and support there in, as a whole. You can say scientologists are doing good work by helping people with there psychological problems, but that they pay 100k to speak to there space-alien leader totally destroys the “good works” factor of the church.

Well Freemasonry is a Frat not a Church what about it has made it look bad? It has done many wonderful things for kids. Sure there are people within it that have issues but that is found in the Chruch as well. But we do not condem the Church as Evil because of a few bad Apples.

Similarly you can have the top 50% be required to be evangelical, but if the base is part of an organization that’s gaining the blessings of Christ without coming to Christ then your probably helping lead people astray / become complacent with there non-Christian faith.

Well 90% of Freemasons are Christians, many are active in there Churches. The teachings of Freemasonry are based on the Lessons Christ gave on how to threat others. Basicly it is a Fraternity builty on the Golden Rule. This is why Freemaosnry is now open to people of many differing beliefs because the lessons of Brotherly Love and Charity should not be to a certain Group but shared with all worthy men. The Lesson of the First Three Degrees Freemasonry can and have Lead people to Christ. Because the Lesson cause them to think about who they are and to always seek the Truth and us the Bible as there Rule and Guide.

BigNorsk

28th August 2005, 02:37 PM

I notice that throughout this thread, the various "proponents" of freemasonry don't even agree with each other as to what it is teaching. Any objection to what one says it teaches is followed by someone else who says it doesn't teach that at all. The only consistent thing is that the claim is always that it is compatible with Christianity.

Take this:
The Three Degrees of Freemasonry teach you the following thru Morality Plays.

1st Degree you learn about Charity and Brotherly Love that you should always be willing to help anyone you find in the World. And that God can not have Sin in Heaven with Him and the Only way someone while be able to enter Heaven is if they do not have Sin in their Life. Freemaosnry does not tell you how to be with out Sin. It tells you that only thru Divine Providence is it possible.

Christianity doesn't teach that we get to heaven because we are perfect, it teaches that we get to heaven because Christ is perfect. If members are doing their good works to deserve salvation as something they earn, it is worthless and contrary to the gospel.

Marv

cwebber

28th August 2005, 10:48 PM

Christianity doesn't teach that we get to heaven because we are perfect, it teaches that we get to heaven because Christ is perfect. If members are doing their good works to deserve salvation as something they earn, it is worthless and contrary to the gospel.

Tell me Marv can you get into Heaven if you have Sin in your Life?

The Bible says that we lost our fellowship with God because Adam sinned. We are sinfull creatures. The only way for us to regain that Fellowship with God is to be made whole again or Perfect. Christ is the only way we can be made perfect thru His Bled shed on the Cross.

So I ask youy again can we as sinners goto Heaven? And what does Christ Blood do to us?

It makes us Perfect and Sinless before God. And were in the Gosprel does it tell use we can get into Heaven without being perfect? You will have to prove that in order to prove that being Perfect to get into Hewaven is contray to Scripture. So please provide Scripture.

BigNorsk

28th August 2005, 11:48 PM

If our salvation depended on us being perfect God and the angels would be all alone in heaven.

Rom 3:10-28 NET
(10) just as it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one,
(11) there is no one who understands, there is no one who seeks God.
(12) All have turned away, together they have become worthless; there is no one who shows kindness, not even one."
(13) "Their throats are open graves, they deceive with their tongues, the poison of asps is under their lips."
(14) "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
(15) "Their feet are swift to shed blood,
(16) ruin and misery are in their paths,
(17) and the way of peace they have not known."
(18) "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
(19) Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world may be held accountable to God.
(20) For no one is declared righteous before him by the works of the law, for through the law comes the knowledge of sin.
(21) But now apart from the law the righteousness of God (which is attested by the law and the prophets) has been disclosed
(22) namely, the righteousness of God through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction,
(23) for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
(24) But they are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
(25) God publicly displayed him at his death as the mercy seat accessible through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness, because God in his forbearance had passed over the sins previously committed.
(26) This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness.
(27) Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded! By what principle? Of works? No, but by the principle of faith!
(28) For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.

If you rely on your righteousness, then there is only one category, unrighteous. If salvation requires us to be sin free, there would be none saved. But we are declared righteous by God's grace through Jesus' faithfulness. Jesus is righteous and his righteousness is imputed to us. Now if I sin, does Jesus become unrighteous? No, it has nothing to do with his righteousness.

It is not that we are sinless, it is that we are declared sinless. If you are sinless, then your salvation is owed you

I give many involved in Freemasonry credit, they are zealous for what they believe and they do indeed live it, others before you have been that way too.
Rom 10:1-9 NET
(1) Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God on behalf of my fellow Israelites is for their salvation.
(2) For I can testify that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not in line with the truth.
(3) For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God's righteousness.
(4) For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.
(5) For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the law: "The one who does these things will live by them."
(6) But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down)
(7) or "Who will descend into the abyss?" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
(8) But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we preach),
(9) because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

You will note the list of required works is very short, nonexistent really. This is why Christianity gives people the true Sabbath, a rest that can never be obtained by works.
Heb 4:1-16 NET
(1) Therefore we must be wary that, while the promise of entering his rest remains open, none of you may seem to have come short of it.
(2) For we had good news proclaimed to us just as they did. But the message they heard did them no good, since they did not join in with those who heard it in faith.
(3) For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, "As I swore in my anger, 'They will never enter my rest!' " And yet God's works were accomplished from the foundation of the world.
(4) For he has spoken somewhere about the seventh day in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all his works,"
(5) but to repeat the text cited earlier: "They will never enter my rest!"
(6) Therefore it remains for some to enter it, yet those to whom it was previously proclaimed did not enter because of disobedience.
(7) So God again ordains a certain day, "Today," speaking through David after so long a time, as in the words quoted before, "O, that today you would listen as he speaks! Do not harden your hearts."
(8) For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken afterward about another day.
(9) Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God.
(10) For the one who enters God's rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works.
(11) Thus we must make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.
(12) For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any double-edged sword, piercing even to the point of dividing soul from spirit, and joints from marrow; it is able to judge the desires and thoughts of the heart.
(13) And no creature is hidden from God, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.
(14) Therefore since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast to our confession.
(15) For we do not have a high priest incapable of sympathizing with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in every way just as we are, yet without sin.
(16) Therefore let us confidently approach the throne of grace to receive mercy and find grace whenever we need help.

Isn't it time to rest from works and enter God's Sabbath rest? A rest you will never obtain trying to work to obtain it. Today is the day the Lord has made. Works will follow, but not works done in order to earn salvation. Indeed your very works will be rest for they will flow from love and they will be no work at all.

Marv

cwebber

29th August 2005, 10:12 AM

If you rely on your righteousness, then there is only one category, unrighteous. If salvation requires us to be sin free, there would be none saved. But we are declared righteous by God's grace through Jesus' faithfulness. Jesus is righteous and his righteousness is imputed to us. Now if I sin, does Jesus become unrighteous? No, it has nothing to do with his righteousness.

No one said anything about Salvation requiring us to be sin free. Admittence into Heaven requires us to be Sin Free. Salavtion is us being made Sin Free thru the Blood Shed on Calvary the only way for us to be Sin Free.

You have presented nothing in oposition to what Freemaosnry states that you must be without Sin to goto Heaven. It does not tell you how ever how to remove the Sin in your Life other than the Answer Lies in the Bible.

It is not that we are sinless, it is that we are declared sinless. If you are sinless, then your salvation is owed you

Yes we are declared Sinless our Sins are washed away and we are whole before we can enter into Heaven we must be washed of our Sins.

Marv what Freemasonry states still remains true. It is not incompataible with Christianity.

Albion

29th August 2005, 10:25 AM

Bignorsk

Freemasonry is not universal that is a common misunderstanding. There are certian religious groups that are not permitted to join Freemasonry.

Who are they, and why are they not allowed?

In some states anyone who's religion promote poligamy are not allowed to join Freemasonry.

That would seem to leave out only a few communes living outside the law.

I have asked many Muslims on the internet about this and there reason for it being this way was because Muslims see Freemasonry as being too Christian. There are Lodges in Muslim nations but they are only in the Moderate Muslim nations and from what I here the Bible is still on the Altar with the Koran next to it. In Israel the Bible, Torah and Koran are on the Altar. Freemasonry only declares the Bible as the Rule and Guide of Freemasonry not the Koran.

But I have to agree with him, books written by Masons defending Masonry say that the book on the altar would be that of whatever religion the local members favor. Certainly not that the Bible is "the rule and Guide," and not that other books are not to be considered.

I believe you need to Study more, start with Dr. D. James Kennedy and the info He has on our Founding Fathers,

Are you saying that Dr. Kennedy endoreses or approves of Freemasonry? I don't think that is so.

cwebber

29th August 2005, 07:32 PM

But I have to agree with him, books written by Masons defending Masonry say that the book on the altar would be that of whatever religion the local members favor. Certainly not that the Bible is "the rule and Guide," and not that other books are not to be considered.

Well he lies the issue. In order to be regonized as a Regular Masonic Body the Ritual has to be close to the same. If you remove parts of it you amy no longer be regonized as a Regu;ar Masonic Lodge and be declared Clandestain.

The bible is part of the Ritual if you leave out the Bible you would be leaving out a big chunck of the Ritual as its lesson are draw from the Old and New Testiment and not the Koran. That is why only Liberal Muslim Nations have Masonic Lodges.

Are you saying that Dr. Kennedy endoreses or approves of Freemasonry? I don't think that is so.

No. I am saying Dr. Kennedy believes the Founding Fathers were Christian.

Who are they, and why are they not allowed?

I believe you answered part of your own Question.

Albion

30th August 2005, 08:03 AM

I believe you answered part of your own Question.

Then I take it that there aren't actually any bone fide denominations/churches that the Masons refuse. Thanks. It sounded from your comments ("religious groups" not permitted to join) as though there were some. But perhaps you were meaning that there are religions which themselves do not allow their members to join the Masons, even if the Masons would permit it (Roman Catholic, Orthodox Eastern, Church of England, Lutherans, etc. And the Muslims were mentioned.).

cwebber

30th August 2005, 10:15 AM

Then I take it that there aren't actually any bone fide denominations/churches that the Masons refuse. Thanks. It sounded from your comments ("religious groups" not permitted to join) as though there were some. But perhaps you were meaning that there are religions which themselves do not allow their members to join the Masons, even if the Masons would permit it (Roman Catholic, Orthodox Eastern, Church of England, Lutherans, etc. And the Muslims were mentioned.).

No. No one perticular denomination is denied being allowed to join Freemasonry. In some juristictions of Freemaosnry if your Church promotes piligmy than you can not be made a Mason. It is not a denomanational thing but a individual church issue. Majority of Mason are Christian it is estimated to be about 90% of all Masons in the United States are Christians. In othr Countries such as Sweden All masons must profess to be believers in Christ before they can join. Majority of Masons in Sweden are Luthern I believe some were in the 93% percent range. In England I believe the Ration is about the same as America. Catholics can be Masons but if the chose to be a MAson they can not partake in Communion because of the false information the Catholic Church has about Freemaosnry.

Many Baptist in United Staes are Masons. Only those who are extremly Fundimental have issue with Freemaosnry a Majority of the Time. Fundimentist caused a rift to form in the Christian community when they pushed for the investigation of Freemaosnry by the SBC. They would not accept the True account given by one of the Researches who went to the Freemasons and their Grand Lodges for information on Freemasonry. If you wish to study something you need to at least ask the Source instead of studying from far off.

A good book on this is Fundimentlism and Freemaosnry the Southern BAptist Convention by Dr. Gary Leazer one of the Researhers for the Home Mission Board on Freemaosnry.

Albion

30th August 2005, 10:42 AM

Very Good. Thanks. Just for information sake, it is still the case that Roman Catholics, Anglicans in the Church of England, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and many Lutherans (Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, and others) are not permitted to join the Masons by their churches.

In the case of the Roman Church you mentioned, it is not that they are permitted to by their Church to join the Masons, but suffer some consequences. They are NOT permitted to join (although some do), and those results are the penalty for doing so in defiance of the Church. By Church teaching, you can't cease to be a Catholic no matter what you do; there can only be penalties for disobedience.

This doesn't mean one way or the other who is right, the Masons or the Churches. I suppose a good case has already been made both ways depending upon whose book one reads.

cwebber

30th August 2005, 02:14 PM

Very Good. Thanks. Just for information sake, it is still the case that Roman Catholics, Anglicans in the Church of England, Eastern Orthodox Christians, and many Lutherans (Missouri Synod, Wisconsin Synod, and others) are not permitted to join the Masons by their churches.

Catholics are not forbidden to join Freemaosnry but are told that they can not partake in communion if they do join.

Here is a Methudist chruch http://www.lowcountrynow.com/stories/052404/LOCchurch.shtml

True some Churches do not allow their members to join Freemaosnry at least not with out a Price.

This doesn't mean one way or the other who is right, the Masons or the Churches. I suppose a good case has already been made both ways depending upon whose book one reads.

I preferre to use the Bible to judge Freemasonry not pamplet or books written based on Man's opnion. So far Freemasonry and the Bible are in agreement.

novcncy

30th August 2005, 03:40 PM

CWebber, when you accuse Ankerburg of being a deliberate liar, you lose any credibility you may have had, and effectively transfer that label squarely onto your own shoulders. From that point on, you have been wasting time...

Albion

30th August 2005, 04:57 PM

Catholics are not forbidden to join Freemaosnry but are told that they can not partake in communion if they do join.

Catholics are indeed told not to join. Not being allowed to partake of the sacraments, which you seem to consider a slap on the wrist, means that the person has excommunicated himself by his actions. That's what the word means.

It is, for all intents and purposes, something that will keep him from being saved. All this is certainly not something done in the case of an action that is merely frowned upon. It is considered a grave moral wrong and therefore forbidden.

I preferre to use the Bible to judge Freemasonry not pamplet or books written based on Man's opnion. So far Freemasonry and the Bible are in agreement.

I also prefer to use the Bible to judge. That's why I believe the two (Christianity and Freemasonry) to be fundamentally incompatible. However, no one is saying that you can't decide for youself.

cwebber

30th August 2005, 06:56 PM

novcncy vbmenu_register("postmenu_18098540", true);

CWebber, when you accuse Ankerburg of being a deliberate liar, you lose any credibility you may have had, and effectively transfer that label squarely onto your own shoulders. From that point on, you have been wasting time...

That's only if you can not prove your claim. We have the Documented instants were we know that He delibrately lied or mislead those reading His material.

http://www.srmason-sj.org/web/SRpublications/deHoyos-chapter3.htm

If I have purposely mislead anyone please show me were I have done so.

cwebber

30th August 2005, 07:12 PM

Catholics are indeed told not to join. Not being allowed to partake of the sacraments, which you seem to consider a slap on the wrist, means that the person has excommunicated himself by his actions. That's what the word means.

Denial of Communion is not excommunication according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

It is, for all intents and purposes, something that will keep him from being saved. All this is certainly not something done in the case of an action that is merely frowned upon. It is considered a grave moral wrong and therefore forbidden.

Finally, real excommunication must not be confounded with a measure formerly quite frequent, and sometimes even known as excommunication, but which was rather a refusal of episcopal communion.

Excommunication is the removal of the Person from all Chruch activities.

I also prefer to use the Bible to judge. That's why I believe the two (Christianity and Freemasonry) to be fundamentally incompatible. However, no one is saying that you can't decide for youself.

What tenets of Freemaosnry do you believe to be incompatiable with Christianity?

Albion

30th August 2005, 08:24 PM

Denial of Communion is not excommunication according to the Catholic Encyclopedia.

It's not a formal declaration of excommunication, but it is tantamount to it, considering the person to have done it to himself. In either case, being without the sacraments MEANS "ex-communicated"...literally.

amiel

30th August 2005, 09:56 PM

I can't help but think.... Once people are involved in something, they cannot view it objectively and logically.

I truly believe Freemasonry is INCOMPATIBLE with Christianity, for many of the reasons outlined in this thread. We cannot serve two masters.

cwebber

30th August 2005, 10:14 PM

I can't help but think.... Once people are involved in something, they cannot view it objectively and logically.

Thats why you use Scripture as your Rule not your own opnion. Man is flawed but Scripture is infaulable. We are thankful for people questioning Freemaosnry because we shoild always question what we are involved in to see if it is True or not.

I truly believe Freemasonry is INCOMPATIBLE with Christianity, for many of the reasons outlined in this thread. We cannot serve two masters.

Nor do I think we can serve two Master Jesus is the Only God. There are no others. I can serve Jesus Thru the Fraternity of Freemasonry by helping the Childern and those in need.

Would you please point out specificly what it is about Freemaosnry that makes you think it is incompatable.

Albion

31st August 2005, 08:58 AM

Nor do I think we can serve two Master Jesus is the Only God. There are no others. I can serve Jesus Thru the Fraternity of Freemasonry by helping the Childern and those in need.

Would you please point out specificly what it is about Freemaosnry that makes you think it is incompatable.

This is an interesting subject if everyone is able to talk about it calmly without accusations that the other guy doesn't understand scripture, etc.

I have highlighted the above section of what you wrote because I think it focuses rather well on the crux of the issue for many people. While Masonry says that it calls people to high ideals--which I am not doubting--there is certainly room for disagreeing on what the essence of Christianity is. IF it is to be charitable, and in that way serve Jesus (as you suggest), then Freemasonry, any United Way, etc. or the charitable efforts of any non-Christian church no doubt meet the test. But for those of us who are more traditional Christians and feel that God has required fidelity to him first off, Freemasonry does seem in all its various ceremonies to compromise that by taking the "different paths to God" approach.

That comment may not be exactly right, but Freemasonry, even as you have said, does not take sides as to which God is the real God, and instructs its people along that line of thought which it apparently considers spiritual but tolerant. We don't actually find that God is "tolerant" of falsity when it comes to much he taught us, not even if we are charitable.

cwebber

31st August 2005, 10:16 AM

I have highlighted the above section of what you wrote because I think it focuses rather well on the crux of the issue for many people. While Masonry says that it calls people to high ideals--which I am not doubting--there is certainly room for disagreeing on what the essence of Christianity is. IF it is to be charitable, and in that way serve Jesus (as you suggest), then Freemasonry, any United Way, etc. or the charitable efforts of any non-Christian church no doubt meet the test. But for those of us who are more traditional Christians and feel that God has required fidelity to him first off, Freemasonry does seem in all its various ceremonies to compromise that by taking the "different paths to God" approach.

In my opnion Tradition can kill a Christians Witness. So many times I have seen Christians shun a women because when she was visiting a Church she wore a pair of pants. This if you study Scripture is not the path that Jesus taught Jesus accepted people as they were he did not require them to wear dresses or any certian dress before He would teach them. If a hooker comes in off the street we should welcome her with open arms into the House of God and let her here the words of God and the Love of Jesus how else is she going to receive it if we do not let them enter.

The same goes with a Homosexual we should not stop them from coming to Church, we show Christ to them and hope that they accept Him as their Savior.

You see Christians can work with non-believers in charity efforts. We can work alongside people who are non-believers to build a house for someone. We are in the World we are just not of the World. If we stop helping someone because we are working woth those who do not believe as we do than what kind of witness is that about Christ Love.

Jesus work right along side those who did not believe He was the Messiah, He still should them love and compassion even thou they did not believe in Him. When He feed the 5000 He did not require them to believe in Him. He just simplely Loved them.

Freemasonry does not promote different Paths to God conccept. Freemasonry states that God is Jehovah, but Freemaosnry does not require you to believe in Jehovah to join. Because to a point it is not Freemasonry's business as to the way you worship. As I stated before if there is something about your church that goes against what Freemaosnry considers to be moral than you may be denied addmission into Freemaosnry.

That comment may not be exactly right, but Freemasonry, even as you have said, does not take sides as to which God is the real God, and instructs its people along that line of thought which it apparently considers spiritual but tolerant. We don't actually find that God is "tolerant" of falsity when it comes to much he taught us, not even if we are charitable.

Freemasonry states that Jehovah is God. But it does not force you to worship one way or another because Salvation is a matter for the Chruch not a Fraternity. Freemason tells every Mason in its Ritual that you will stand before God in Judgement just as the Bible states we will all be judged. All of your life will be before God and nothing is hidden from Him.

Albion

31st August 2005, 10:21 AM

Freemasonry does not promote different Paths to God conccept.

But that is what you are in the process of explaining. Jehovah is not God, per se, to a traditional Christian. God is one in Trinity.

This is the source of much of the Christian reluctance about Masonry.

cwebber

31st August 2005, 12:50 PM

But that is what you are in the process of explaining. Jehovah is not God, per se, to a traditional Christian. God is one in Trinity.

Jehovah is God to Traditional and Fundimental Christians. This is based on Scripture gievn to us from Moses. Jehovaih is God, Jehovah is One. You can argue the same point Traditional Christians will tell you under no other name can someone be saved than Jesus Tradition will mess you up and have you believing that Someone has to speak the English name of Jesus in order to be saved. When Jesus is Yasuhia (Spelling may be off). You see what is ment by the passage is that Salvation is only Thru Jesus Christ the way you pronounce His name is not important. The only real reason this would bother a Christian is if they are uneducated.

This is the source of much of the Christian reluctance about Masonry.
If Freemasnory declares the God of the Bible (Jehovah) as God almighty and in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity than I do not understand how why a Christian would get so hung up on something that the Bible Agrees with unless they are uneducated on Scripture. Education is th Key we find out many wonderful things about our Savior and God thru it.

Albion

31st August 2005, 01:30 PM

Jehovah is God to Traditional and Fundimental Christians. This is based on Scripture gievn to us from Moses. Jehovaih is God, Jehovah is One. You can argue the same point Traditional Christians will tell you under no other name can someone be saved than Jesus Tradition will mess you up and have you believing that Someone has to speak the English name of Jesus in order to be saved. When Jesus is Yasuhia (Spelling may be off). You see what is ment by the passage is that Salvation is only Thru Jesus Christ the way you pronounce His name is not important. The only real reason this would bother a Christian is if they are uneducated.

That's a trifle hard to follow but if you think Jehovah = Jesus, I am even more sure of the point I was making.

I do have the general feeling that this is what Freemasonry teaches its people, that is, that God is God whatever you call him and every believer in God believes in the same one, whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, whatever. Most Christians cannot agree to this idea.

novcncy

31st August 2005, 01:36 PM

That's a trifle hard to follow but if you think Jehovah = Jesus, I am even more sure of the point I was making.

I do have the general feeling that this is what Freemasonry teaches its people, that is, that God is God whatever you call him and every believer in God believes in the same one, whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, whatever. Most Christians cannot agree to this idea.

Hindus agree with it. Hmmmmmm.....

Albion

31st August 2005, 02:04 PM

Hindus agree with it. Hmmmmmm.....

That fact doesn't do much for the suggestion that Christians should have no reason to be wary of Masonry, doesn it? Whatever Hindus do vis-a-vis Freemasonry is their business.

cwebber

31st August 2005, 02:19 PM

That's a trifle hard to follow but if you think Jehovah = Jesus, I am even more sure of the point I was making.

Please explain this?

I do have the general feeling that this is what Freemasonry teaches its people, that is, that God is God whatever you call him and every believer in God believes in the same one, whether Muslim, Christian, Jewish, whatever. Most Christians cannot agree to this idea.

Actually according the Scripture Jews believed in God and Christians believed in the same God. Seeing how the God of both JEw and Christian was the God of Abraham, Jehovah they believe in the same God. Now with that being said the Muslims believe the God of Abraham is Jehovah so all three see the God of Abraham, Jehovah as God. We as Christs see God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity the Father , Son and Holy Ghost. Does this mean God does not hear the Prayers of those who do not accept His Son. We have proof in Scripture that God hears the Prayers of those who call on Him and have not yet accepted His Son.

Albion

31st August 2005, 02:39 PM

Please explain this?

Actually according the Scripture Jews believed in God and Christians believed in the same God. Seeing how the God of both JEw and Christian was the God of Abraham, Jehovah they believe in the same God. Now with that being said the Muslims believe the God of Abraham is Jehovah so all three see the God of Abraham, Jehovah as God. We as Christs see God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity the Father , Son and Holy Ghost. Does this mean God does not hear the Prayers of those who do not accept His Son. We have proof in Scripture that God hears the Prayers of those who call on Him and have not yet accepted His Son.

Well, my point was never to dissuade you from Freemasonry or to denounce Masonry. It was to supply you with a better understanding of how Christians, fundamentalist Christians and many others who are not fundamentalists, feel that Freemasonry and Christianity are not compatible.

Jesus is God incarnate. That is the point I intended you to see by mentioning the Trinitarian faith that is so basic to Christianity. Jews and Muslims do not see God in Jesus in the way that we do, so to belong to an organization that teaches there is no difference (when we believe it essential to know and believe that difference) is a good reason to avoid Freemasonry, we feel. What you have written in response only confirms that perception, even if you seem not to have appreciated the point I was trying to get across.

e=mv^2

31st August 2005, 02:43 PM

If you have not the Son, you have not the Father.

cwebber

31st August 2005, 07:30 PM

Jesus is God incarnate. That is the point I intended you to see by mentioning the Trinitarian faith that is so basic to Christianity. Jews and Muslims do not see God in Jesus in the way that we do, so to belong to an organization that teaches there is no difference (when we believe it essential to know and believe that difference) is a good reason to avoid Freemasonry, we feel. What you have written in response only confirms that perception, even if you seem not to have appreciated the point I was trying to get across.

The Organization of Freemaosnry does not teach there is no difference. Freemaosnry teaches God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity. Many people do not know this because they only want to complain and not ackually study Freemasonry.

I understand the pont you are trying to get across is basiclly how can a Christian join in a Group with people who do not believe the same as we believe. You see he is the real issue of the Matter. The Traditional and Fundimental Christians if you wish to put them in a group more often the not base their views on Freemasonry on thier OPNION and not Scripture.

Nowhere in Scripture does it tell use we can not work with others who are unbelievers. Paul worked with many unbelievers that is how he witnessed to them He got down on their Level and worked along side them to achieve a common Goal of getting the work done. Along the way He became their Friend and was better able to witness to them because they trusted Him.

Some Fundimentist will not let there Childern join Boy Scouts and they will belittle a relative for trying to recover from Alcohol Abuse when they go thru AA. Neither of these groups require you to believe in Jesus Christ but both require you to believe in a Supreme Being.

You need to get past the Surface of something and really study it in order to really understand it. At fisrt glance you see Freemaosnry as a secret group of men of all religions talking behind closed doors and your imagination goes with that.

When you look a little closer you see a non-Secret Group of men of different Religions working together to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, house the homeless and Care for the Sick. Thou we may not agree in our beliefs we do agree that we should help others and that is what we meet on to help those in need to Love our Neighbor.

All I can say is read Scripture read how God heard the prayers of the Roman before He accepted Christ how God seen His good deeds. Thou the Muslim and the Jew do not accept Christ as God as we do their Prayers are still heard when they honestly seek God. The difference is they do not have a Personal Relationship with Him like we as Christians do.

Yo see it is like God lives in a Gated community there is but one Gate and Christ stands at it. All around people can pray and call on God and he hears them. But only those who accept the Son are allowed to Enter and be with Him.

Albion

1st September 2005, 10:25 AM

The Organization of Freemaosnry does not teach there is no difference. Freemaosnry teaches God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity. Many people do not know this because they only want to complain and not ackually study Freemasonry.

We have your own explanation, given in defense of Freemasonry's view, which said that all believers in Jehovah are believing in the same thing. Therefore, I don't accept the change now. But I would also point out that I have studied Freemasonry's teachings from the Grand Lodge itself and it is as I said. At any rate, you can understand, I hope, that this is why many Christians feel that to be part of the Masonic system would require them to compromise their fidelity to God as Christianity has long held him to be.

I understand the pont you are trying to get across is basiclly how can a Christian join in a Group with people who do not believe the same as we believe.

Not at all. That was never my point. We all belong to such organizations as the Optimists, Country Clubs, Democratic or Republican Parties and many more which include people of different religions. That is not the point. But with Masonry you have an admittedly spiritual/religion-based organization which propounds its own views about God, etc. in a way that those others do not. To "go along" with that is a kind of witnessing that is understandably wrong to many Christians.

The Traditional and Fundimental Christians if you wish to put them in a group more often the not base their views on Freemasonry on thier OPNION and not Scripture.

Let's say that they base it upon their understanding of both scripture and what Freemasonry is about.

Nowhere in Scripture does it tell use we can not work with others who are unbelievers. Paul worked with many unbelievers that is how he witnessed to them He got down on their Level and worked along side them to achieve a common Goal of getting the work done. Along the way He became their Friend and was better able to witness to them because they trusted Him.

Then that is your personal opinion. As I said before, no one is saying you have no right to be a member, only that there are reasons for many Christians not to do the same.

Some Fundimentist will not let there Childern join Boy Scouts and they will belittle a relative for trying to recover from Alcohol Abuse when they go thru AA. Neither of these groups require you to believe in Jesus Christ but both require you to believe in a Supreme Being.

True. Shall we switch to a discussion of those groups instead of the Masons?

You need to get past the Surface of something and really study it in order to really understand it. At fisrt glance you see Freemaosnry as a secret group of men of all religions talking behind closed doors and your imagination goes with that.

Perhaps it is your imagination that causes you to stereotype those who are cool to Freemasonry. What I have read and heard from Christians opposed almost never stresses what you've just said.

When you look a little closer you see a non-Secret Group of men of different Religions working together to feed the hungry, cloth the naked, house the homeless and Care for the Sick. Thou we may not agree in our beliefs we do agree that we should help others and that is what we meet on to help those in need to Love our Neighbor.

There is no reason to think that those who won't join Masonry are opposed to doing all those good things. Nor is there any reason to think that to accomplish all this worthwhile charity, it can only be done through Masonry. The people you have in mind simply do the same charitable work through different organizations.

All I can say is read Scripture read how God heard the prayers of the Roman before He accepted Christ how God seen His good deeds. Thou the Muslim and the Jew do not accept Christ as God as we do their Prayers are still heard when they honestly seek God. The difference is they do not have a Personal Relationship with Him like we as Christians do.

Again, no one is saying you can't follow your own conscience. I merely was pointing out why many Christians do not join. It appears that you are unwilling to accept it, but I've tried. Merely saying that our churces (consituting the majority of the world's Christians by far) are wrong in their religious beliefs isn't going to change their (any my) feelings in the matter. And we are as entitled to hold our own religious beliefs as you are yours.

Cheers.

cwebber

1st September 2005, 12:30 PM

We have your own explanation, given in defense of Freemasonry's view, which said that all believers in Jehovah are believing in the same thing. Therefore, I don't accept the change now. But I would also point out that I have studied Freemasonry's teachings from the Grand Lodge itself and it is as I said. At any rate, you can understand, I hope, that this is why many Christians feel that to be part of the Masonic system would require them to compromise their fidelity to God as Christianity has long held him to be.

I am sorry but that is not what I said They are doing the same thing the reckonize Jehovah as God but do not have a Relationship with Him. Which Grand Lodges did you visit and study from?

Not at all. That was never my point. We all belong to such organizations as the Optimists, Country Clubs, Democratic or Republican Parties and many more which include people of different religions. That is not the point. But with Masonry you have an admittedly spiritual/religion-based organization which propounds its own views about God, etc. in a way that those others do not. To "go along" with that is a kind of witnessing that is understandably wrong to many Christians.

I don't think so Boy Scouts and AA along with the US Constition do the same as Freemasorny expect Freemaosnry takes it one step futher and says God is Trinity. And I am not sure how telling others that God is the God of the Bible and He is in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity would be wrong to a Christian. Please explain this to me?

Let's say that they base it upon their understanding of both scripture and what Freemasonry is about.

Theres the problem they really do not know about Freemasonry yet proclaim it to be evil without even trying to study it they just take someone's word for it.

True. Shall we switch to a discussion of those groups instead of the Masons?

No but Freemasonry is no different then they are

There is no reason to think that those who won't join Masonry are opposed to doing all those good things. Nor is there any reason to think that to accomplish all this worthwhile charity, it can only be done through Masonry. The people you have in mind simply do the same charitable work through different organizations.

So than why attack Freemaosnry.

Again, no one is saying you can't follow your own conscience. I merely was pointing out why many Christians do not join. It appears that you are unwilling to accept it, but I've tried. Merely saying that our churces (consituting the majority of the world's Christians by far) are wrong in their religious beliefs isn't going to change their (any my) feelings in the matter. And we are as entitled to hold our own religious beliefs as you are yours.

Yes they are that is the Problem people tell me that because I am aMason I can not be a Christian and I will burn in Hell. The problem is their issues are based on personal opnion not that of Scripture if they would only turn to Scripture and let it be their Guide instead of their feeling than we would not have a problem.

Lynn73

1st September 2005, 01:00 PM

The problem is their issues are based on personal opnion not that of Scripture if they would only turn to Scripture and let it be their Guide instead of their feeling than we would not have a problem.

That's ironic because I'm thinking the same thing of you. You would renounce masaonry if you let the Scripture be your guide instead of your feelings about masonry.
http://www.fish4masons.org/home.html

Albion

1st September 2005, 02:07 PM

I don't think so Boy Scouts and AA along with the US Constition do the same as Freemasorny expect Freemaosnry takes it one step futher and says God is Trinity. And I am not sure how telling others that God is the God of the Bible and He is in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity would be wrong to a Christian. Please explain this to me?

Theres the problem they really do not know about Freemasonry yet proclaim it to be evil without even trying to study it they just take someone's word for it.

Yes they are that is the Problem people tell me that because I am aMason I can not be a Christian and I will burn in Hell. The problem is their issues are based on personal opnion not that of Scripture if they would only turn to Scripture and let it be their Guide instead of their feeling than we would not have a problem.

No but Freemasonry is no different then they are

Yes they are that is the Problem people tell me that because I am aMason I can not be a Christian and I will burn in Hell. The problem is their issues are based on personal opnion not that of Scripture if they would only turn to Scripture and let it be their Guide instead of their feeling than we would not have a problem

So than why attack Freemaosnry.

I have no desire to fight with you, and I didn't attack Freemasonry.

I was not talking about the Boy Scouts since that is not a good comparison, but I did speak of other groups that provide a better comparison. You ignored them in your answer.

In case you were interested in why many Christian churches are opposed to their members joining the Masons, I was willing to explain it to you.

All I seem to get back is a desire to put on me the fights you've had with other people unknown to me. Because I have no desire to fight with you, and you're ready to reply to everything I say with a pre-set retort that doesn't fit, I'd better retire from this discussion. Sorry I couldn't engage you in a real examination of the issues.

cwebber

1st September 2005, 02:10 PM

That's ironic because I'm thinking the same thing of you. You would renounce masaonry if you let the Scripture be your guide instead of your feelings about masonry.
http://www.fish4masons.org/home.html (http://www.fish4masons.org/home.html)

I have let Scripture guide me that is why after studying Freemaosnry for twos I joined it and when someone makes an accusation about Freemaosnry I investigate it. Such as those at the Order of Former Freemason their problem with Freemasonry all starts with John Ankerburg and John Weldon that is were they have all started on that is their foundation for leaving Freemasonry, not Scripture. John Ankerburg and John Weldon's research has been proven to be wrong and some of it they new to be wrong but went with it anyway.

You see the foundation of those at OFF is not based on Scripture, It is based on Misinformation and purposeful misleading of people in other words their foundation is Sand. When I first studied Freemaosnry I started off with Scripture I put what Freemaosnry says against Scripture and so far it has rang True, my Fondation is on the Rock of Jesus Christ and His unfaulable Word the Holy Bible.

If you study Freemaosnry you find that its teachings are based on the Old and New Testiment. The Fellow Craft Degree is all based in 1 Cor. Ch. 13. Freemasonry points to Christ so many ways from God in the Threefold Aspect of the Trinity to the Star as a representation of God's Divine Providence.

All I ask is that you look at Freemaosnry and use Scripture as your Rule and not the the opnions of Man.

cwebber

1st September 2005, 02:17 PM

I didn't attack Freemasonry, was not talking about the Boy Scouts but other groups which you didn't respond to, and tried to explain something about many people's feelings...in case you wanted to learn.

I did not say you were but you bring up a good point people Feelings. We should not be ruled by our feelings but by Scripture.

It appears that I failed in that, and you are intent upon putting everyone who disagrees on this matter into a little box that is the your stereotype of all who disagree with Masonry, and then addressing that sterotype instead of what I said. If for no other reason, I myself wouldn't want to join an organization that spends a lot of time villifying non-members instead of just going about its own business.

I never stereotype you brought up the Christian Fundimantist not me. Not all Fundimentlist are agaisnt Freemasonry. There are many who disagree and agree with Freemasonry that is their choice, that is your choice. But if you ask a question I will answer it.

As far as Villifying I sugest we work together in stoping the Church from doing this before we try to stop a Fraternity from supposedly do the same.

Albion

1st September 2005, 02:30 PM

I did not say you were but you bring up a good point people Feelings. We should not be ruled by our feelings but by Scripture.

I think you know that I meant their convictions when I said "feelings." Certainly I did not intend for you to distort that word into something like being governed by one's emotions. But if you think that no one can possibly not agree with your reading of scripture, not even the churches that count most of the world's Christian population, I am not going to get through.

I never stereotype you brought up the Christian Fundimantist not me.

Fundamentalism is in the subject and title of this thread. I did not "bring it up."

Not all Fundimentlist are agaisnt Freemasonry.

No one said they are.

But if you ask a question I will answer it.

Why don't you respond to what I have told you instead of condemning people who have nothing to do with those I was speaking of?

As far as Villifying I sugest we work together in stoping the Church from doing this before we try to stop a Fraternity from supposedly do the same.

Stop the church? We ought to work together to stop the Church? Huh?

cwebber

1st September 2005, 05:28 PM

I think you know that I meant their convictions when I said "feelings." Certainly I did not intend for you to distort that word into something like being governed by one's emotions.

If it is genuine convections than I want the person to whole hardley seek the Truth. But I thought you me just emotions that was my mistake. The society we live in know is one of lets go with how we feel about it and this leads to a lot of bad decsions. Instead of putting our trust in God they go with how they are feeling at the time.

But if you think that no one can possibly not agree with your reading of scripture, not even the churches that count most of the world's Christian population, I am not going to get through.

I know there are lots of people who do not agree with me on some pints in Scripture but a majority of people do. My views are inline with most mainstream Churches. Were we differ is very small and are secondary issues. My Boss and me disagree on the Rapture as to when it will take place. But we both agree on Jesus being the only way to Salvation and that once you are saved you are always saved.

Fundamentalism is in the subject and title of this thread. I did not "bring it up."

Ok you were stating I was stereotyping and I had never used the word fundimentlist so far as I know in until you said it. I am a Fundimentalist I believe that Christ is the Only way and that there is no otherway. A Majority of those who are against Freemaosnry usually are to literal in there view and do not reckognize the Smbolic Aspects of the Bible ot the Lesson there in.

Example: The Six days of Creation are 24hr days.

A thousand years is like a day to the Lord is a symbolic meaning of time is not relavant to God He s out side time.

The swearing of Oaths was a Lesson that you should not swear so easily with otu care. But if it is a Sin to swaer than our Savior Sinned because He took an Oath on Himself when asked under Oath are you the Messiah.

No one said they are.

Good than we are in agreement!

Why don't you respond to what I have told you instead of condemning people who have nothing to do with those I was speaking of?

I have never condemed anyone and I have responded to what you asked. I have been upfront and Truthful with you thus Far never condeming anyone.

Stop the church? We ought to work together to stop the Church? Huh?

Yes we as Christians should work together to stop our Brothers and Sister from making basless acusasions about people. We should stop telling Homosexuals that God hates them we should stop telling Atheist that God hates them. We should pull together and show the Love of Christ to those who re against us and Threat them with Love and Compassion. When a Homosexual comes to your Chruch great them with open arms and let them enter to Hear about the Love of God. Instead of bashing the Atheist like they do use help them in their time of need instead of saying they are getting what they deserve.

Show Christ instead of your feelings. Instead of based on your feelings decsiding that a person would not what to goto Church because of the way the Dress and Live. INVITE THEM ANYWAY! and when they show up in pieced noses and different color hair. Open your Arms and receive them