This is the best way I have put my "Women Pastors" views ever!

[Music4Hym777]

July 20, 2004 at 12:34 AM:

My views on women in the church are simply, that they can do everything
but be the HEAD pastor. Women can teach (especially the children and women) and do everything else, but I think that in the head administrative stuff, there should be a man. There have been many women teach and share revelations and prophecy with the church. It says that if ANYONE has something laid on their heart by God to share with the church then they should. Submission is the main issue, I am a strong believer in submission and how can a Head of a
Church be in any submission to anyone but Christ, and a women is supposed
to submit to her husband. Anyways, I am very liberal on this issue compared
to how I grew up.

[SPALATIN]

July 20, 2004 at 12:34 AM:

My views on women in the church are simply, that they can do everything
but be the HEAD pastor. Women can teach (especially the children and women) and do everything else, but I think that in the head administrative stuff, there should be a man. There have been many women teach and share revelations and prophecy with the church. It says that if ANYONE has something laid on their heart by God to share with the church then they should. Submission is the main issue, I am a strong believer in submission and how can a Head of a
Church be in any submission to anyone but Christ, and a women is supposed
to submit to her husband. Anyways, I am very liberal on this issue compared
to how I grew up.

You have spoken very well here Monica. I don't disagree with anything you have written.

[Jim47]

When you read through the OT you find that submission was one of the key problems with our fore fathers, and still is today. I agree with you Monica and I think the only reason that God made that rule is to see who would submit to it. This has been a challange for both men and women to accept, but it all boils down to submission as you said. :thumbsup:

[ByzantineDixie]

Scott and Jim....you may want to ask Monica what she means by HEAD pastor. I believe Monica is not saying women shouldn't be pastors, she is saying women shouldn't be HEAD pastors.

Of course, Monica, I think the Office of the Holy Ministry is reserved for men. The Office of Birthin' Babies is reserved for women and ne'er the twain shall meet. :)

[Music4Hym777]

Scott and Jim....you may want to ask Monica what she means by HEAD pastor. I believe Monica is not saying women shouldn't be pastors, she is saying women shouldn't be HEAD pastors.

Of course, Monica, I think the Office of the Holy Ministry is reserved for men. The Office of Birthin' Babies is reserved for women and ne'er the twain shall meet. :)

What I mean by HEAD PASTOR is any pastor that is going to be doing the majority of the teaching or being the BIG authority. When I wrote that, I was Lutheran, but still very MCA. In the MCA church we have pastors for just about everything. There was a pastor incharge of the youth (7grade-college), the counseling(psychological), the kids (birth-6th grade), administration pastor (making sure that we stayed within correct theological doctrine and helped with the church statements and stuff), Assistant Pastor to the Head Pastor (preach if the HEAD pastor was not there), Care Pastor (for the hospital visits), Outreach pastor (for not only foreign exchange, but refugee relief, and new neighbors).

I think that a woman can be in charge of some of these ministries that were considered pastoral ministries at my old church. That was written a year ago when I could barely fathom a church only having 1 pastor (the one I was at before had 11 real pastors and 2 intern pastors). So if you look at the things that these non-HEAD pastors were doing, they are things that in the Lutheran church most of the time Deacons and Deaconesses do. But the pastor role in the Lutheran church, should be left up to a man.

Any other questions?

[MORTANIUS]

In my view based on my studies of the early Church. Women are capable of teaching.

The Priesthood is not exclusive to men. Humanity includes men and women. Teachers are called on by God from the priesthood of humanity.

If a woman wishes to be a Reverend/Pastor/Priest(ess) on the grounds of femminism, then I disagree.

If she is called by God to serve the Church, then I cannot argue against what God wishes.

Its a special calling to be a Teacher.

It still remains a delicate issue for many, but gender is certainly not something that should be argued in Church on secular ideals such as femminism. Faith in a persons heart is the only thing that matters.

[SPALATIN]

Scott and Jim....you may want to ask Monica what she means by HEAD pastor. I believe Monica is not saying women shouldn't be pastors, she is saying women shouldn't be HEAD pastors.

Of course, Monica, I think the Office of the Holy Ministry is reserved for men. The Office of Birthin' Babies is reserved for women and ne'er the twain shall meet. :)

I did kind of read that so I guess in retrospect I would disagree that there shouldn't be any female Pastor at all, but everything else she said was good.

[talitha]

I'm with Mortanius on this.

One thing I wish to insert -- I certainly hope that the pastor of your church is submitted to someone?? I am a great believer in accountability for ALL.

blessings
tal

[KagomeShuko]

I'm with Mortanius on this.

One thing I wish to insert -- I certainly hope that the pastor of your church is submitted to someone?? I am a great believer in accountability for ALL.

blessings
tal

Talitha is one of my favorite girl's names! I had a friend named Talitha when I was in high school :) We were on the Quiz Bowl team togehter.

I agree with you and Mortanius as well. Basing being a pastor on feminism is wrong. . .however, if a woman has a calling. . .and I've heard some great call stories from WOMEN pastors.

Me? I still believe in the male being the spiritual head of the household (at least for me, anyway). I'm not about to limit God. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ByzantineDixie]

I am not going to pretend that I can convince anyone of re-evaluating their position with regarding to females serving in the Office of the Holy Ministry. We have traveled that road before and both sides think they have a good handle on the will of God in this.

I will say this much...test the spirits (reference 1 John 4:1-6). We know God's will would never have us go against the scriptures. This is what helps keep personal revelation in check (in the sense that we are not yanked here and there by false spirits) and helps us know whether or not God is asking us to do whatever it is we think He is asking.

[C.F.W. Walther]

1. Read the Bibile spiritualy (Holy Spirits guidance), it is allways right.

2. If you think it's faulty then refer back to rule one.










:confused:

[Jim47]

1. Read the Bibile spiritualy (Holy Spirits guidance), it is allways right.

2. If you think it's faulty then refer back to rule one.










:confused:

Thats a good rule, and one I always follow.

A few years back, maybe more than just a few, I had trouble understanding, or should I say believing a particular scripture as I just didn't understand how it could be possible. That was when I realized that God wrote the Bible in that way to test us and see if we would trust Him and what He said rather than our own intelliect and understanding.

Needless to say, I know who is smarter and who is still learning. :)

[Music4Hym777]

Did anyone even read my second part in reply to Rose? The HEAD Pastor is the pastor that we think of in the Lutheran chuch. But I do believe that women can be lay people. When I wrote that, the only lay people that we had were the Sunday school teachers and youth leaders (not director). EVERYONE else had to be ordained, if you were the head of something, you were an ordained pastor.

In the Lutheran church, there is not an Ordained pastor incharge of nursury duty, there is not an ordained pastor incharge of the women's ministry, there is not an ordained pastor incharge of say the pre-school. Yes, there is an ordained pastor incharge of these people that are in these roles, but normally these roles are not filled by pastors (I mean seriously, 7 years of college atleast to make the nursury schedule, come on, you call on a lay person to do that!), but at the church I was going to all these roles were filled by seminary grads! I think that lay people (men and women) can be incharge of that, with an ordained pastor (male) over them. If a female seminary grad wants to do the other things, then more power to her. For me, that is why I am going to seminary, not to do the incharge things, but to do the behind the scenes stuff.

Does it make sense now what I mean when I say the HEAD pastor? The one that is incharge of what are usually lay person positions. I do believe that a male should be that HEAD pastor.

[Protoevangel]

I'm always a Head, no matter what I do! :P

Seriously though, I have no problems with what you are saying here.

[ctobola]

LR,

You've periodically mentioned the "Office of the Holy Ministry." Does this represent someone called to be ontologically different than a lay person? Does this represent a hierarchy in the Church? Is thisministry more "holy" than other ministries?

-Cloy


I am not going to pretend that I can convince anyone of re-evaluating their position with regarding to females serving in the Office of the Holy Ministry. We have traveled that road before and both sides think they have a good handle on the will of God in this.

I will say this much...test the spirits (reference 1 John 4:1-6). We know God's will would never have us go against the scriptures. This is what helps keep personal revelation in check (in the sense that we are not yanked here and there by false spirits) and helps us know whether or not God is asking us to do whatever it is we think He is asking.

[ByzantineDixie]

LR,

You've periodically mentioned the "Office of the Holy Ministry." Does this represent someone called to be ontologically different than a lay person? Does this represent a hierarchy in the Church? Is thisministry more "holy" than other ministries?


The Office of the Holy Ministry is that specific office established to serve God's people in the church by teaching, preaching and administering the sacraments as specified in the Augsburg Confessions.

XIV. Order in the Church
It is taught among us that nobody should publicly teach or preach or administer the sacraments in the church without a regular call.

The term "Office of the Holy Ministry" is used by the LCMS in the ordination rite...in the event that such a term is not used by the ELCA.

Different than a lay person? Yes, by virtue of the call.

Hierarchy? What do you mean by hierarchy? That the pastor has authority? Yes, indeed! But the pastor is also servant to all...so not the kind of hierarchy one might find in a worldly sense

More "holy"? Not necessarily by virtue of the office but there are scriptural instructions which call for high standards to hold the office. Nonetheless, the nature of the office does not make one more "holy". The Orthodox have a saying that "the floor of hell is paved with the skulls of bad bishops".

[LilLamb219]

Well written, LuthersRose!

It's about vocation. The Office of Holy Ministry is a vocation that God calls to men, not women. It's not about who is better or who can do the job better...it's who God calls and he calls men to fill that spot.

[AngelusSax]

It's about vocation. The Office of Holy Ministry is a vocation that God calls to men, not women. It's not about who is better or who can do the job better...it's who God calls and he calls men to fill that spot.

I've seen too many women who could only be doing what they were Called to do, and that was ministry. My open eyes won't let me believe that God only calls men, when we all know that in the last days sons AND daughters shall prophesy, and prophecy isn't about predicting the future, but proclaiming the truth of Christ.

[SPALATIN]

I've seen too many women who could only be doing what they were Called to do, and that was ministry. My open eyes won't let me believe that God only calls men, when we all know that in the last days sons AND daughters shall prophesy, and prophecy isn't about predicting the future, but proclaiming the truth of Christ.

I have absolutely no further comment on this. You know where I stand on the subject.

[LilLamb219]

I've never said that women don't do things within the church, but the office of Holy ministry is not a vocation they have been given by God. Women do wonderful things for God and their gifts are not overlooked.

One thing I haven't seen brought up in these threads concerning this is the representation of Christ to the Bride as being male to female. The Church is referred to as the bride of Christ and is a "female" role. Christ is never given the "female" role, so the pastor who stands in the stead of Christ should not be female but male so as not to confuse the congregations.

[MORTANIUS]

This issue should not be based on personal views. What is the reality of the Priesthood? That is the real concern. It is not even a new issue, but an age old one from the time of the Apostle Paul.

When we as Christians learn to learn to remember and understand the purpose of the Priesthood, then we can understand if man or woman should be participants in this special and important role of Church life.

Although not a simple problem, I'm sure people will have a simple answer if they try to understand the role of a Teacher.

The role of a man and the role of a woman are often defined through marriage in the Holy Bible, and not necessarily the new Priesthood.

As I stated that femminism should not be an argument for women entering the Priesthood, it also stands that men should not argue against it on the arguments extracted by the Holy Bible that strictly apply to women and men in marriage. Such arguments are based on an entirely different subject matter.

The last thing I will say is. The messenger or message, which is important?

[C.F.W. Walther]

Women should be quiet in church and have their heads covered. That has nothing to do with marriage. Your statement asserts that there are only statements in the Bible about marriage and not about women,s conduct in church but here are some verses that back how women should conduct themselves in worship and church. These are references to women not wives

1 Corinthians 14:34 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=35&version=9&context=verse)
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11



1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. Propriety in Worship

2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2011&version=31#fen-NIV-28587a)] just as I passed them on to you.


3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[b (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2011&version=31#fen-NIV-28592b)] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.



1 Timothy 2

8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.






:confused:

[ctobola]

The Office of the Holy Ministry is that specific office established to serve God's people in the church by teaching, preaching and administering the sacraments as specified in the Augsburg Confessions.

XIV. Order in the Church
It is taught among us that nobody should publicly teach or preach or administer the sacraments in the church without a regular call.

The term "Office of the Holy Ministry" is used by the LCMS in the ordination rite...in the event that such a term is not used by the ELCA.

Different than a lay person? Yes, by virtue of the call.


LR,

So a person in the "Office the Holy Ministry" fills a priestly role, administering (or withholding) God's grace -- in the forms of the Word and Sacraments -- which would otherwise be unavailable to the lay people. Am I reading that correctly?

-Cloy

[SPALATIN]

LR,

So a person in the "Office the Holy Ministry" fills a priestly role, administering (or withholding) God's grace -- in the forms of the Word and Sacraments -- which would otherwise be unavailable to the lay people. Am I reading that correctly?

-Cloy

How very perceptive of you. :clap:

[ByzantineDixie]

LR,

So a person in the "Office the Holy Ministry" fills a priestly role, administering (or withholding) God's grace -- in the forms of the Word and Sacraments -- which would otherwise be unavailable to the lay people. Am I reading that correctly?

-Cloy

Yes, a priestly role, I like that. :P

Actually, I don't want to jump to conclusions...but are you asking me if ALL the means of grace are held by the Office?

[ctobola]

Yes, a priestly role, I like that. :P

Actually, I don't want to jump to conclusions...but are you asking me if ALL the means of grace are held by the Office?

I guess ultimately I'm asking if you're talking about the Old Covenant or the New Covenant....

From what I'm hearing, this sounds like the Old Covenant -- a "holy" priest is required to gain access to God; the "rank and file" are not worthy to approach the holy place or enter the "holy of holies"; a mediator stands between humanity and God; the priest is set apart from the people of God.

Compare that to the New Covenant. There is only one who stands between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), and that is Jesus. He opened the curtain to the Holy of Holies once and for all, and now we can enter and stand before God with confidence. (Heb. 10:19) All Christians stand on the same level before God (Galatains 3:28); and we extend God's call to one of us (not a set apart outsider) to function on our behalf in breaking the bread and ensuring that the Gospel is proclaimed faithfully.

Dunno. I like the New Covenant version better.

In Christ, -Cloy

[ByzantineDixie]

Compare that to the New Covenant. There is only one who stands between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), and that is Jesus. He opened the curtain to the Holy of Holies once and for all, and now we can enter and stand before God with confidence. (Heb. 10:19) All Christians stand on the same level before God (Galatains 3:28); and we extend God's call to one of us (not a set apart outsider) to function on our behalf in breaking the bread and ensuring that the Gospel is proclaimed faithfully.


Well, I guess I am confused. I don't understand this talk about "levels". Why would one think that before God there are "levels"? We are all part of the Body...all have roles to play. 1 Cor 12 clearly describes this. Why would you think that the clergy are on some different level? The foot is not the hand, the ear is not the eye...yet we are all one Body. But the clergy has a role to play different from the laity...as the foot performs a different function from the hand, and the ear doesn't see but hears, and the eye doesn't hear but sees.

There is nothing about the Office of the Holy Ministry that is contrary to this or to the Scriptures you reference.

[BigNorsk]

ctobola,

If I hear you correctly, you are concerned that ministers should not be "gatekeepers" to God's Grace. I agree with you. A minister is to preach the Word of God and administer the sacraments, he isn't to withold them from the congregation. A minister's role is to feed the sheep, not starve them.

Some people interpret the office of the keys as to have to power to arbitrarily forgive or retain sins, but that should never be. If a person repents, his forgiveness is to be declared, if he doesn't repent, the sin is retained, but it isn't the minister's place to say something like, you say you repent but I am not so sure, I am going to retain your sins for now.

In an emergency, any believer can do anything the minister can, preach the Word, baptise, and so on. Wherever the church is, that is believers, someone can be ordained if necessary. Let's say a few believers are stranded away from other people. They need to worship God and it would be proper for them to ordain one as a minister in order to lead worship and administer the sacraments.

I think it is good to be sensitive in this area, there are always those who try to establish ministers as somehow being over the church instead of the proper way of the church being over ministers.

Say for instance a minister said that he was going to omit our chief worship, the preaching of the gospel, from the worship service. Well, there'd be a few meetings to try to work things out, but if he persisted, I know he would be gone in my congregation. I'm not so sure he'd even be able to impose that for one service, I think the elders would step in, but maybe, if the minister didn't announce his intentions beforehand, one service would lack preaching.

Anyway, I understand and agree with your concern.

Marv

[ByzantineDixie]

I honestly can't imagine what kind of ministers some of you have been exposed to such that you are so wary. I am sorry for that. However, a true shepherd...a man faithful in his task of bringing Christ's message to His people, administering the sacraments honorably and faithfully...a man the sheep can trust to lead them safely home. Ah...this is a great treasure and a gift from God.

The thought of a congregation itching to one up such a faithful servant, mercilessly on the look out for just one wrong step, leaves me cold.

[Jim47]

ctobola,

If I hear you correctly, you are concerned that ministers should not be "gatekeepers" to God's Grace. I agree with you. A minister is to preach the Word of God and administer the sacraments, he isn't to withold them from the congregation. A minister's role is to feed the sheep, not starve them.

Some people interpret the office of the keys as to have to power to arbitrarily forgive or retain sins, but that should never be. If a person repents, his forgiveness is to be declared, if he doesn't repent, the sin is retained, but it isn't the minister's place to say something like, you say you repent but I am not so sure, I am going to retain your sins for now.

Marv


Lets look closely at what Jesus said:

Mt 16:17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20 Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

This leaves no doubt that we as Jesus deciples we are to admisnister this.

[filosofer]

You might want to check the NAS for the rendering of the future perfect passive: "Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven." The point is that when the person (any Christian, not just a pastor) announces/declares that forgiveness, it is something that God had already done in heaven prior to the declaration. Thus, the public proclamation of that by the pastor is not his authority, is not his perogative, it is something God has alread done and decided.

Key thought: Pastors are to be servants, not lording it over the people.

[BigNorsk]

Well said filosofer.

And Rose, give it a rest, noone is sitting looking for a pastor to make one little error.

Marv

[Protoevangel]

You might want to check the NAS for the rendering of the future perfect passive: "Whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven, whatever you loose on earth will have been loosed in heaven." The point is that when the person (any Christian, not just a pastor) announces/declares that forgiveness, it is something that God had already done in heaven prior to the declaration. Thus, the public proclamation of that by the pastor is not his authority, is not his perogative, it is something God has alread done and decided.

Key thought: Pastors are to be servants, not lording it over the people.

Good stuff!

Hey filosofer, would you be willing to briefly summarize your general position on what is being discussed (women in the office / the office itself)? Like a good sheppard, you often use a gentle hand to help guide the conversation, but here, I would really like to hear your thoughts in a somewhat more tangible sense, since it is an issue I struggle with whenever it is brought up. Thank you!

[saami]

July 20, 2004 at 12:34 AM:

My views on women in the church are simply, that they can do everything
but be the HEAD pastor. Women can teach (especially the children and women) and do everything else, but I think that in the head administrative stuff, there should be a man. There have been many women teach and share revelations and prophecy with the church. It says that if ANYONE has something laid on their heart by God to share with the church then they should. Submission is the main issue, I am a strong believer in submission and how can a Head of a
Church be in any submission to anyone but Christ, and a women is supposed
to submit to her husband. Anyways, I am very liberal on this issue compared
to how I grew up.

I think that your concern for being under authority is good - I am a senior pastor, and I am under the authority of my bishop in church things and my husband in home things but he submits to me as well, according to Ephesians 5:21 ;) .

Each individual needs to be under someone's guidance - perhaps a strngth of the idea of the Catholic Magesterium.

:crossrc:

[ByzantineDixie]

And Rose, give it a rest, noone is sitting looking for a pastor to make one little error.


Ah, yes, guilty here of hyperbole. Sorry if I caused offense.

[filosofer]

Good stuff!

Hey filosofer, would you be willing to briefly summarize your general position on what is being discussed (women in the office / the office itself)? Like a good sheppard, you often use a gentle hand to help guide the conversation, but here, I would really like to hear your thoughts in a somewhat more tangible sense, since it is an issue I struggle with whenever it is brought up. Thank you!

Thank you for the kind words.

Given the restrictive nature of what is or is not permitted, I will not post my position on this, except to say that I had been LCMS for more than a half century, and now I am TAALC, and neither supports women pastors. But before someone attacks that position, there is much more to be said, but not here. :)

[ctobola]

[Sorry to be slow in responding... been on the road.]

LR,

I'd argue that there is indeed something contrary to Scripture if the pastor takes on the role of outside intermediary between God and humanity. This is contrary to the Priesthood of All Believers, not to mention most of the book of Hebrews, the Gospel story of the curtain to the Holy of Holies being torn during the crucification, and numerous other Bible verses -- we no longer need a ceremonially pure outsider to mediate between us and God. We can now stand before the throne of God with confidence.

Pastors are called on behalf of the congregation (and God) to ensure the proper order in the ministry of the Word and Sacraments. The pastor serves as "one of us" who breaks the bread (on our behalf) and ensures the proper proclaimation of the Gospel -- to make him/her a "shamen" or "holy man" who has special powers or access to God utterly violates the Lutheran faith and the clear message of the New Testament.

In Christ, -Cloy

There is nothing about the Office of the Holy Ministry that is contrary to this or to the Scriptures you reference.

[ctobola]

Marv,

I think you're hearing me correctly. The view I object to is implied in what I wrote....


So a person in the "Office the Holy Ministry" fills a priestly role, administering... the Word and Sacraments -- which would otherwise be unavailable to the lay people.

The lay people (as a congregation of faithful people) are the source of formal call -- they extend an invitation to a believer to make sure that the Sacraments and Word are properly administered within their community. In essence, the Lutheran view is that the pastor is "one of us" who serves in particular role. This is fundamentally different from the idea that a (Roman Catholic or Episcopalian) priest comes to a congregation with special outside spiritual powers that are not available within the congregation of faith.

I also tend to think that the term Holy Office of Ministry reinforces the "Merlin the Magician" view of pastors; and draws us away from the idea that we are all called to be ministers.

It also violates the clear Scriptural message that we can stand before God with confidence -- without a priest to intercede on our behalf.

Excelsior!

-Cloy


ctobola,

If I hear you correctly, you are concerned that ministers should not be "gatekeepers" to God's Grace. I agree with you. A minister is to preach the Word of God and administer the sacraments, he isn't to withold them from the congregation. A minister's role is to feed the sheep, not starve them.

Some people interpret the office of the keys as to have to power to arbitrarily forgive or retain sins, but that should never be. If a person repents, his forgiveness is to be declared, if he doesn't repent, the sin is retained, but it isn't the minister's place to say something like, you say you repent but I am not so sure, I am going to retain your sins for now.

In an emergency, any believer can do anything the minister can, preach the Word, baptise, and so on. Wherever the church is, that is believers, someone can be ordained if necessary. Let's say a few believers are stranded away from other people. They need to worship God and it would be proper for them to ordain one as a minister in order to lead worship and administer the sacraments.

I think it is good to be sensitive in this area, there are always those who try to establish ministers as somehow being over the church instead of the proper way of the church being over ministers.

Say for instance a minister said that he was going to omit our chief worship, the preaching of the gospel, from the worship service. Well, there'd be a few meetings to try to work things out, but if he persisted, I know he would be gone in my congregation. I'm not so sure he'd even be able to impose that for one service, I think the elders would step in, but maybe, if the minister didn't announce his intentions beforehand, one service would lack preaching.

Anyway, I understand and agree with your concern.

Marv

[saami]

Women should be quiet in church and have their heads covered. That has nothing to do with marriage. Your statement asserts that there are only statements in the Bible about marriage and not about women,s conduct in church but here are some verses that back how women should conduct themselves in worship and church. These are references to women not wives

1 Corinthians 14:34 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=34&version=9&context=verse)
Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

1 Corinthians 14:35 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=35&version=9&context=verse)
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 11



1Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ. Propriety in Worship

2I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the teachings,[a (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2011&version=31#fen-NIV-28587a)] just as I passed them on to you.


3Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head—it is just as though her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off; and if it is a disgrace for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. 7A man ought not to cover his head,[b (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=1%20corinthians%2011&version=31#fen-NIV-28592b)] since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; 9neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason, and because of the angels, the woman ought to have a sign of authority on her head.



1 Timothy 2

8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;

10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.






:confused:

Don't just take the word of Shakespearean Englishmen. Is Paul contradicting himself when in i Cor. 11 he says when women prophesy in public to do so modestly (did you know that according to ancient medical ideas a woman's hair was part of her reproductive system?), but then forbids them to talk at all in 1 Cor 14? Is silence in 1 Tim really soundlessness, or rather the silence of a type that is proscribed for early rabbinical students - very noisy but focused. The word used is the same word. Did you know the tense of the Greek commands in 1 Tim? First there is a temporary tense to the having no authority, meaning that at some point in the future there will be a time of authority. When, after the "silent/focused" studying is done. This is thesame qualification placed upon rabbinical students. Do you think Paul condemned or approved of these women in authority, preaching ministries: Prisca a teacher and corrector of Apollos ( Acts 18), Phoebe the deacon, Junia the apostle/bishop in Romans 16. This and more discussion is in
Beyond the Curse: Women Called to Ministry (Paperback)
by Aida B. Spencer (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books&field-author-exact=Aida%20B.%20Spencer/103-6462717-6037413) from Fuller Theological Seminary, Pasadena, CA [not a liberal school].

[filosofer]

Don't just take the word of Shakespearean Englishmen. Is Paul contradicting himself when in i Cor. 11 he says when women prophesy in public to do so modestly (did you know that according to ancient medical ideas a woman's hair was part of her reproductive system?), but then forbids them to talk at all in 1 Cor 14?


No, not contradicting himself. However, when he speaks of silence in chapter 14, the authoritative judging of the prophets (and prophecies) takes place. In other words, women could prophesy (chapter 11), but could not sit in authoritative judgment of prophecies.


Is silence in 1 Tim really soundlessness, or rather the silence of a type that is proscribed for early rabbinical students - very noisy but focused. The word used is the same word. Did you know the tense of the Greek commands in 1 Tim? First there is a temporary tense to the having no authority, meaning that at some point in the future there will be a time of authority. When, after the "silent/focused" studying is done. This is thesame qualification placed upon rabbinical students. Do you think Paul condemned or approved of these women in authority, preaching ministries: Prisca a teacher and corrector of Apollos ( Acts 18), Phoebe the deacon, Junia the apostle/bishop in Romans 16.

There is no "temporary tense" in the Greek. Paul commands them (present tense EPITREPW - "I allow" with the negative "I do not allow") and follows that with the three present tense infinitives (which do not relate to time): "to teach", "to exercise authority", "to be silent" (hSOUXIA).

Interestingly the basis for Paul's exhortation, though, is not contemporary 21st century society, which many want to do, nor even 1st century society. So the argument that this is first century Jewish, rabbinic tradition only and will change does not hold. Paul goes back, prior to the fall into sin (Genesis 2), and establishes the principle, prior to culture, and even prior to sin.

BTW, the word hSOUXIA is a fascinating word. When I did post-graduate studies at the sem, a classmate of mine examined every occurrence of the word group from 600 BC to AD 600, secular, religious, etc. It often carries the sense that when everything is in order, there is no need to speak, hence "silence". But there is never a need to usurp authority, even if someone breaks the "silence of harmony", even if others are sinning.

[C.F.W. Walther]

ARHG!!!!------cyberspace ate my message so here's another one. Short version.

Junius has been a constant discussion on whether it was translated frrom the Greek correctly and most articles I've read refer to the masculine form. Junius being a male. Check it out on the web......it's there. That relegates all other references you quoted to womens true place.

[RayJGentry]

I'm bringing back this thread because I have a questions that regards this and a few more recent threads that have been shut down (not due to topic, but behavior). I'm hoping I can just get a few answers :D

From many scriptures posted here, women are commanded to be in silence in church. It has also been posted that women should not ask questions in church, but ask them at home to their husbands. Is this rule generally upheld in your churches? If you have an adult Bible study, are women not allowed to talk or ask questions?

The reason I ask is because when it comes to issues of women's roles in the Church, all prohibitions would have to be equally enforced. I've been to many LCMS churches who in every other way seem to be in line with everything I've read on here for a "good LCMS church," but they consistently never enforce the literal "no talking and no asking questions" subject.

[C.F.W. Walther]

I am not going to pretend that I can convince anyone of re-evaluating their position with regarding to females serving in the Office of the Holy Ministry. We have traveled that road before and both sides think they have a good handle on the will of God in this.

I will say this much...test the spirits (reference 1 John 4:1-6). We know God's will would never have us go against the scriptures. This is what helps keep personal revelation in check (in the sense that we are not yanked here and there by false spirits) and helps us know whether or not God is asking us to do whatever it is we think He is asking.

Amen to that. I've seen famalies torn apart beause someone said that "God told them to go do this" and it was their own selfish pride that told them. The devil can be insidious.




:scratch:

[C.F.W. Walther]

I'm bringing back this thread because I have a questions that regards this and a few more recent threads that have been shut down (not due to topic, but behavior). I'm hoping I can just get a few answers :D

From many scriptures posted here, women are commanded to be in silence in church. It has also been posted that women should not ask questions in church, but ask them at home to their husbands. Is this rule generally upheld in your churches? If you have an adult Bible study, are women not allowed to talk or ask questions?

The reason I ask is because when it comes to issues of women's roles in the Church, all prohibitions would have to be equally enforced. I've been to many LCMS churches who in every other way seem to be in line with everything I've read on here for a "good LCMS church," but they consistently never enforce the literal "no talking and no asking questions" subject.

The answer to your questions are probably "no" because a good majority of the time we don't practice what we preach and us "men" are too wimpy to try and stand by bilical teachings. If you don't start out with those biblical principles then the wives and many other people will think you are a hypocrite for wanting to observe those principles since you never did before. Probably would start a lot of fights and hard feelings.

It's too late for most men anyway because they gave up their spiritual rights long ago and the women have tried to step in to bridge the gap. I really don't blame the women for trying to take on the spiritual role even though it isn't bilical. If you look at any church you will see where women do most of the work, physically and spiritually. Sure guys do nuts 'n bolts things but women have most of the teaching jobs and all of the support jobs.

The only hard solution would be for the men to repent and to study the Bile in ernest and try and recoup their spiritual base. For the ministers to equip the saints and train the men in their spiritual position and train them to be good stewards of their God given role and not sluff it off on the women. I blame many ministers on not "equipping the saints" because that is just their way of consolidating their own power.




:scratch:

[LilLamb219]

Look to the history of the text. What were women doing? They had been disrupting the service by asking questions so they are instructed to wait until they get home to ask their husbands.

It's not that women can't "speak" at all, but speak with authority, for it is not given to them to do so. Women are to not speak to men in terms of teaching/preaching. Bible study is not a worship service so questions are indeed allowed. In Bible study when a woman answers a question, she is not the one teaching men, for a man such as a pastor or vicar should really be the one "leading" the study.

[RayJGentry]

see, i've gotten that answer before, but i don't quite buy it. i could go with it if it said women should not inturrupt the service. but it says women should wait til they are home to ask their husbands. this rules out other situations where a woman could ask it "at the church." i guess some help is needed for me. what word is church translated from? does it equate to service or the building?

[LutherNut]

I'm bringing back this thread because I have a questions that regards this and a few more recent threads that have been shut down (not due to topic, but behavior). I'm hoping I can just get a few answers :D

From many scriptures posted here, women are commanded to be in silence in church. It has also been posted that women should not ask questions in church, but ask them at home to their husbands. Is this rule generally upheld in your churches? If you have an adult Bible study, are women not allowed to talk or ask questions?

The reason I ask is because when it comes to issues of women's roles in the Church, all prohibitions would have to be equally enforced. I've been to many LCMS churches who in every other way seem to be in line with everything I've read on here for a "good LCMS church," but they consistently never enforce the literal "no talking and no asking questions" subject.

All of Scripture must be taken in the context of Scripture as a whole. Paul's teaching about the acts of women in the Church is in the context of authority. There is nothing in that context that says that women cannot ask question during a Bible study. There is nothing in that context that says that women cannot sing hymns or pray aloud or recite the litugical responses during the Divine Service. These are not issues of authority.

What Paul teaches us, not only in 1 Corinthians but in 1 Timothy and Titus is that women do not have authority over men in the Church. God ordained certain responsibilities and gave them to certain people. The responsibility of husband and father is given to only men. The responsibility of wife and mother is given to only women. The role of the pastor in the Church is that of husband and father, therefore, pastors are to be only men. Women are not and cannot be husbands or fathers, therefore they are not called by God to be pastors.

Paul's teaching of "silence" in the Church is the application of authority. He tells us very clearly in 1 Timothy that women do not "teach or have authority over men" in the Church. Since the role of pastor is that of husband and father (and of course, teacher), a role in the household of authority over the wife (husbands, love your wives as Christ loves the Church), women are not called to be pastors. Such a position would usurp the God given responsibility given to men.

[RayJGentry]

1 Corinthians 14:35 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=35&version=9&context=verse)
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

how does that have anything to do with authority? i understand that in the context of orderly worship, but it specifically uses the definite article, THE church.. this seems to, in fact, prohibit them from asking questions even in Bible study...it says any questions they have should be asked at home to their husbands. yes, i have read the whole context of the chapter also. that chapter is about orderly woship/congregation with each other in a church. it simply is stating that women should not be speaking or asking questions, and this would seem to include Bible study. so far Radidio seems to be the only one willing to answer the question. i just can't make the stretch to interpret the verse the way you do, luther nut

[SPALATIN]

I'm bringing back this thread because I have a questions that regards this and a few more recent threads that have been shut down (not due to topic, but behavior). I'm hoping I can just get a few answers :D

From many scriptures posted here, women are commanded to be in silence in church. It has also been posted that women should not ask questions in church, but ask them at home to their husbands. Is this rule generally upheld in your churches? If you have an adult Bible study, are women not allowed to talk or ask questions?

The reason I ask is because when it comes to issues of women's roles in the Church, all prohibitions would have to be equally enforced. I've been to many LCMS churches who in every other way seem to be in line with everything I've read on here for a "good LCMS church," but they consistently never enforce the literal "no talking and no asking questions" subject.

To be quite honest with you Ray, I think the LCMS has allowed women to ask questions mainly because most of the time there is a pastor who can answer the question at hand. It doesn't always ring consistent with Paul's command (which he received from Christ).

I am sure that I will have this over the next few years in my sem studies and will try to chime in when I can.

Scott

[DaRev]

1 Corinthians 14:35 (http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=14&verse=35&version=9&context=verse)
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

how does that have anything to do with authority? i understand that in the context of orderly worship, but it specifically uses the definite article, THE church.. this seems to, in fact, prohibit them from asking questions even in Bible study...it says any questions they have should be asked at home to their husbands. yes, i have read the whole context of the chapter also. that chapter is about orderly woship/congregation with each other in a church. it simply is stating that women should not be speaking or asking questions, and this would seem to include Bible study. so far Radidio seems to be the only one willing to answer the question. i just can't make the stretch to interpret the verse the way you do, luther nut

You are correct in that the immediate context of 1 Corinthians where this teaching is found has to do with order in worship. It is in worship that Paul is saying that the women should not speak. You need to consider the audience to whom Paul is writing and the situation he is addressing. The women in the Corinthian Church were disrupting the woirship with their questions. Paul's teaching that he is applying to this situation is based upon the authority issue. This teaching does not prohibit women from asking questions in Bible study, since Bible study is not a worship service. It also does not prohibit women from singing hymns or responding to the order of the service since these things are not what is being addressed in Paul's teaching to the Corinthian Church.

LutherNut's explanation is close, but incomplete.

[MORTANIUS]

We have truly modernized equality without the name of the Lord. Women Rights movements have pressed many minds into believing that the Church must conform to modern society without considering that such conformity is not in the Spirit of the Lord.

Many of you say that the Holy Bible is TIMELESS or COMPLETE, and yet so many of you have manipulated the Holy Bible through the views of modernizers who are without the Spirit of the Lord!

What the Apostle Paul states is not in the 'spirit' of his times! If you believe this is the case then you must be rebuked for saying that the Holy Bible, our GOOD BOOK! is 'timeless' or 'complete' and so forth!

This is very upsetting that Lutherans would go so far as to ordain women pastors within their fold with excuses that the Holy Bible and its contents applied to an era that didn't share the same values as we do today - while forgetting that todays 'values' have been obtained without the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ. Femminism has little regard for Christ!

If the Holy Bible is all we say it is, then how dare anyone (Lutheran or other denom) claim that the Apostle Paul, or early Christianity hold different standards than we ought to today! Of course we have different standards today, but thats only because we have allowed the spirit of this world to reign over us instead of Jesus Christ!

Honestly, may God have mercy on our Souls!

[Flipper]

Just one question:

Does equal pay for equal work go against the Bible? If so, how?

[Protoevangel]

Just one question:

Does equal pay for equal work go against the Bible? If so, how?
I think you and Mort are talking about two different Kingdoms...

[RayJGentry]

My problem with the interpretation that this only applies during worship, is that amidst all these rules, Paul makes the extra effort to make the point that women are to be silent IN THE CHURCH. he does not limit it to worship. I truly believe the only way to read this and hold to it exactly would be to have women to not utter a word while they are in the church. In the other verses he makes distinct points as to the purpose of the rules for orderly worship. however, when he speaks of women in this verse, he specifically says it is simply a shame for women to speak in church. This broadens the scope of the rules he's been laying down to in THE Church. not in church, or worship as we often say. Besides, this isn't an issue of authority. A woman asking a questions about something she doesn't understand takes no authority over any man. This verse, read literally, states how a woman is to behave in a church.

[Flipper]

I think you and Mort are talking about two different Kingdoms...

I don't know if that is so. Since many feel that feminism seems to be the cause of all these women wanting to be pastors, and feminism seems to not be Biblical - then is equal pay for equal work - a feminist concept - not biblical?

I know what you are saying, Dan, and I agree - I just want to know if people think all aspects of feminism are not Biblical, or are just a few aspects. Just my own warped curiosity.

I learned in a Biblical history class at Concordia in St. Louis (the University, not the seminary - it's a branch of CUW) that historically, the women in Cornith were being a bunch of gossips, and Paul was just putting them in their place - it had nothing to do with whether women should talk in church or not. Apparently, the Temple in Cornith was run by the women, because the Town Goddess was Aphrodite, so the women were accustomed to running things, as it were.

Of course this class was taught by a Deaconness who was in the middle of her discertation to get a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies at Concordia Seminary - so maybe it was a feminist rant. Who knows.

[Protoevangel]

My problem with the interpretation that this only applies during worship, is that amidst all these rules, Paul makes the extra effort to make the point that women are to be silent IN THE CHURCH. he does not limit it to worship. I truly believe the only way to read this and hold to it exactly would be to have women to not utter a word while they are in the church. In the other verses he makes distinct points as to the purpose of the rules for orderly worship. however, when he speaks of women in this verse, he specifically says it is simply a shame for women to speak in church. This broadens the scope of the rules he's been laying down to in THE Church. not in church, or worship as we often say. Besides, this isn't an issue of authority. A woman asking a questions about something she doesn't understand takes no authority over any man. This verse, read literally, states how a woman is to behave in a church.
Ray, what does Church mean to you? Is it a building? Can women never speak in the "church" building? The word Paul uses is ekklesia, which, in the Christian sense can mean either the entire Body of believers scattered throughout the world (does that mean that no Christian woman can speak anywhere?), to the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven (can women not speak in the afterlife?), to an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting.

So, while you cling to the one word, to prove your point, you ignore it's context, and the analogy of faith. Your opinion contradicts the analogia fidei, and is therefore, by it's very nature, false. For Scripture to interpret Scripture, you must understand that women are allowed to pray and prophesy in the context of worship (1 Corinthians 11:5). A woman is not to usurp authority over or teach over a man (1 Timothy 2:11-12). These commands would make no sense with your translation of 1 Corinthians 14:35, but using the analogy of faith, and instead understanding 1 Corinthians 14:35 in light of clearer passages, it all comes together into a perfect harmony.

I'm not a huge fan of The Message translation, but Mr. Peterson does a good job of translating this passage into modern English for us:
"Wives must not disrupt worship, talking when they should be listening, asking questions that could more appropriately be asked of their husbands at home. God's Book of the law guides our manners and customs here. Wives have no license to use the time of worship for unwarranted speaking."
- 1 Corinthians 14:34-35

[Protoevangel]

I don't know if that is so. Since many feel that feminism seems to be the cause of all these women wanting to be pastors, and feminism seems to not be Biblical - then is equal pay for equal work - a feminist concept - not biblical?

I know what you are saying, Dan, and I agree - I just want to know if people think all aspects of feminism are not Biblical, or are just a few aspects. Just my own warped curiosity.
Gotcha! :thumbsup:

I learned in a Biblical history class at Concordia in St. Louis (the University, not the seminary - it's a branch of CUW) that historically, the women in Cornith were being a bunch of gossips, and Paul was just putting them in their place - it had nothing to do with whether women should talk in church or not. Apparently, the Temple in Cornith was run by the women, because the Town Goddess was Aphrodite, so the women were accustomed to running things, as it were.

Of course this class was taught by a Deaconness who was in the middle of her discertation to get a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies at Concordia Seminary - so maybe it was a feminist rant. Who knows.
I don't know about a "feminist rant", but it was certianly historical-critical. The answer is right there in the text, according to the analogia fidei.

[RayJGentry]

Thank you for answering that. I'd asked earlier if the translation would provide any insight in to the translation. I didn't know how the translation should best be handled, so (I think) I asked.

I guess I still have problems figuring out where to draw the line between, we know this was because of a social situation and where it's actually God's word. I understand it when Paul says "God says" or "it is God's commandment" etc, but there are a lot of ambiguous things that can easily be shown as a social situation, that are still considered, by some churches, to be rules we ought to follow.

My interpretation of Church, to answer the above question, in the verse above would be the building/area of worship when those are gathered for the purpose of worship or instruction (which might include Bible study, i'm still not sure).I do understand that this would not include singing and such. I also understand that Paul is addressing a churches specific problems, but technically that's what all the epistles do. Granted there are some places that Paul specifically states "God's word" and "my opinion". But to me, to be able to say "well, this doesn't count because Paul was talking to these people about this situation creates the problem of a timeless inerrant literal Word of God. Hopefully it's understood in the forum that I'm not here to try to just rufle feathers or create problems, but I'm really searching to understand how all this fits together.

[Protoevangel]

Thank you for answering that. I'd asked earlier if the translation would provide any insight in to the translation. I didn't know how the translation should best be handled, so (I think) I asked.
Hey, I just hope I didn't come across too harsh. I sometimes do that without intending to.

I guess I still have problems figuring out where to draw the line between, we know this was because of a social situation and where it's actually God's word. I understand it when Paul says "God says" or "it is God's commandment" etc, but there are a lot of ambiguous things that can easily be shown as a social situation, that are still considered, by some churches, to be rules we ought to follow.
This is what I don't understand... It is ALL God's word. Even if something is written in regard to a specific situation (i.e. "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles—that a man has his father’s wife!" - 1 Corinthians 5:1), it is still a message for the whole Church ("In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." - 1 Corinthians 5:4-5).

My interpretation of Church, to answer the above question, in the verse above would be the building/area of worship when those are gathered for the purpose of worship or instruction (which might include Bible study, i'm still not sure).
OK, just remember, that when Paul speaks of ekklesia, he is speaking to the assembly of believers, not about any building.

I do understand that this would not include singing and such. I also understand that Paul is addressing a churches specific problems, but technically that's what all the epistles do. Granted there are some places that Paul specifically states "God's word" and "my opinion". But to me, to be able to say "well, this doesn't count because Paul was talking to these people about this situation creates the problem of a timeless inerrant literal Word of God.
There is no problem of a timeless inerrant literal Word of God, because the Bible is the Word of God, and it is timeless and it is inerrant, and is properly understood only in the literal sense, appropriate to the literature. No opinion of man or angel can change that. Even if Paul is speaking to a specific social situation, the above fact is not in the least affected. Reference my example above.

Hopefully it's understood in the forum that I'm not here to try to just rufle feathers or create problems, but I'm really searching to understand how all this fits together.
It's all good, brother. We're here to help. :thumbsup:

[RayJGentry]

I guess that's just something I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. I DO understand that it's all God's word. But like you're aknowledging, some is for a specific situation. That's what I just have a hard time figuring out, is where, in some instances, we draw the line between God's Word for the people Paul was writing to, and God's Word for His Eternal Church.

So if Ekklesia is God's church, the body of believers, are we then to assume that (the women of Corinth at least) were prohibited from asking questions when believers were gathered? To just save them as ask at home? Because it would then advocate silence for these women in all "churchy" situations? Like I said before, I'm not arguing here for a purpose or agenda. I've just always had a lot of issues with how some denominations discern between "message to the church in X" and "exactly true for all of Christendom"

[C.F.W. Walther]

We have truly modernized equality without the name of the Lord. Women Rights movements have pressed many minds into believing that the Church must conform to modern society without considering that such conformity is not in the Spirit of the Lord.

Many of you say that the Holy Bible is TIMELESS or COMPLETE, and yet so many of you have manipulated the Holy Bible through the views of modernizers who are without the Spirit of the Lord!

What the Apostle Paul states is not in the 'spirit' of his times! If you believe this is the case then you must be rebuked for saying that the Holy Bible, our GOOD BOOK! is 'timeless' or 'complete' and so forth!

This is very upsetting that Lutherans would go so far as to ordain women pastors within their fold with excuses that the Holy Bible and its contents applied to an era that didn't share the same values as we do today - while forgetting that todays 'values' have been obtained without the Spirit of our Lord Jesus Christ. Femminism has little regard for Christ!

If the Holy Bible is all we say it is, then how dare anyone (Lutheran or other denom) claim that the Apostle Paul, or early Christianity hold different standards than we ought to today! Of course we have different standards today, but thats only because we have allowed the spirit of this world to reign over us instead of Jesus Christ!

Honestly, may God have mercy on our Souls!


I thought I was the only one that thought this way. Our perception of reality has changed so much over the centuries and we have allowed non-bilical thinking into our lives because we have followed the world instead of the Bible.

[C.F.W. Walther]

I don't know if that is so. Since many feel that feminism seems to be the cause of all these women wanting to be pastors, and feminism seems to not be Biblical - then is equal pay for equal work - a feminist concept - not biblical?

I know what you are saying, Dan, and I agree - I just want to know if people think all aspects of feminism are not Biblical, or are just a few aspects. Just my own warped curiosity.

I learned in a Biblical history class at Concordia in St. Louis (the University, not the seminary - it's a branch of CUW) that historically, the women in Cornith were being a bunch of gossips, and Paul was just putting them in their place - it had nothing to do with whether women should talk in church or not. Apparently, the Temple in Cornith was run by the women, because the Town Goddess was Aphrodite, so the women were accustomed to running things, as it were.

Of course this class was taught by a Deaconness who was in the middle of her discertation to get a Ph.D. in Biblical Studies at Concordia Seminary - so maybe it was a feminist rant. Who knows.

Fel the Bible stresses that the man be the spiritual head of the household and church and nothing more. He performs his function in the house and the church exclusively. Secular things are left to secular things. Equal pay and other equal rights are for everyone. The OT if full of women who own property, hire and fire workers etc. It just seems that a considerable amount of family matters are governed by bilical precepts so that the husband has the lions share of responsibility in the home. God also stresses that men are to love their wives as He loves the church. THat's one heck of a responsibility.

[LutherNut]

I guess that's just something I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around. I DO understand that it's all God's word. But like you're aknowledging, some is for a specific situation. That's what I just have a hard time figuring out, is where, in some instances, we draw the line between God's Word for the people Paul was writing to, and God's Word for His Eternal Church.

So if Ekklesia is God's church, the body of believers, are we then to assume that (the women of Corinth at least) were prohibited from asking questions when believers were gathered? To just save them as ask at home? Because it would then advocate silence for these women in all "churchy" situations? Like I said before, I'm not arguing here for a purpose or agenda. I've just always had a lot of issues with how some denominations discern between "message to the church in X" and "exactly true for all of Christendom"

You are missing the greater context. Paul is addressing order in worship. So his admonition toward the women in in regards to worship and their disruption of it.

[MORTANIUS]

I thought I was the only one that thought this way. Our perception of reality has changed so much over the centuries and we have allowed non-bilical thinking into our lives because we have followed the world instead of the Bible.

Admittedly I am in many ways drawn to this fallen world in the same fashion we all are, based on our needs for materialism and our wants that grow out of jealousy/envy and so on. These are our struggles against the temptations of this world and with such struggles I don't find any offence except with those who do not base their wants on our Lord instead of the material world.

What is most upsetting is when the clerical representatives upset the meaning of the Holy Bible to meet and suit the conditions of this fallen world. This is beyond corrupting ourselves in terms of our own sins against the Lord, and now become communal sins against GOD! The Church is not supposed to conform to modernization because its purpose is not for the fallen world that we live in - its purpose is to redeem ourselves so that we may live and love our Lord Jesus Christ in the new Heavenly Kingdom on earth!

I am not opposed to women or their access to earning a living. I am against the twisting of scripture and thought that goes against what we as Lutherans claim to adamantly believe - which is that the Holy Bible is our source of wisdom and assurance, having recorded the teachings of our Lord and His various Disciples, and theirs and so on.

Women in the clerical position of the Church mean well, but are there for all the wrong reasons. Also, how they have achieved this was by sacrificing the truth contained within Holy Scripture which they claim they wish to teach!!!! This is most upsetting!