Frustration

[C.F.W. Walther]

I'd like to mention that, me personally, I haven't had 4 years of college (only an AB) and 3 years at the Sem and have neither been trained as a DCE or a Christian educator. I took 2 years of Latin in high school but 99% of it escapes me except for "puella est pulchra", or something like that. I feel that not only myself but many parishioners feel distance from the "educators", "ministers" and Synod because of my perceived idea that they think "they" have the only "inside dope" and us laity wouldn't understand. I don't feel that they can wholly communicate with us on our level. This is augmented by having a pastor standing in the pulpit with his cassock and smock on and that air of "distance". I think that this has been status quo for years because not matter what church I go to I hear " I don't know ask the pastor". Is this healthy? Where am I going with this.........not really sure but I feel frustration with "them" being them and "us" being us. I've read extensively Luthers works, BoC, Augsburg, Walther and many other Lutheran Confessional works but just can't seem to appreciate the gulf between us. I feel as if I might have had an edge on some laity with these studies but still sense the gulf. Condescension-----I don't know. Is it just my perception or do others feel it as well? I remember a saying that says "KISS", Keep it simple stupid

[Jim47]

I'd like to mention that, me personally, I haven't had 4 years of college (only an AB) and 3 years at the Sem and have neither been trained as a DCE or a Christian educator. I took 2 years of Latin in high school but 99% of it escapes me except for "puella est pulchra", or something like that. I feel that not only myself but many parishioners feel distance from the "educators", "ministers" and Synod because of my perceived idea that they think "they" have the only "inside dope" and us laity wouldn't understand. I don't feel that they can wholly communicate with us on our level. This is augmented by having a pastor standing in the pulpit with his cassock and smock on and that air of "distance". I think that this has been status quo for years because not matter what church I go to I hear " I don't know ask the pastor". Is this healthy? Where am I going with this.........not really sure but I feel frustration with "them" being them and "us" being us. I've read extensively Luthers works, BoC, Augsburg, Walther and many other Lutheran Confessional works but just can't seem to appreciate the gulf between us. I feel as if I might have had an edge on some laity with these studies but still sense the gulf. Condescension-----I don't know. Is it just my perception or do others feel it as well? I remember a saying that says "KISS", Keep it simple stupid


You have more education than I do and because of a problem I have you have also given more into personal Lutheran studies than I have, but, I don't feel the distance thing that you speak of.

Do others in your church feel the same way, or do I understand that you have this feeling with all Pastors?

I will readily admit that my Pastors have all been mcuho grande smarter than me, for which I am thankful. I would hate to think anyone with my inteleigence could be a Pastor. This gives me a real sence of comfort and trust in them as my Spiritual Leader.

Is it possible that you have inner disappointments that you wanted to be a Pastor but are not?

I think your willingness to discuss this here is wonderful :thumbsup: By the way, I checked out your profile and saw your picture. Not a lot of difference between us except I still have most of my hair even though it's not brown anymore.

referance "KISS" Yeah, thats an old salesman's motto, well familiar with it as that is my "profession" (not that I am professional about it, I live on a wing and a prayer) :wave:


If you have a question for me and I don't find this again, please PM me, as my memory is 2 inches shorter than my nose. :(

[Music4Hym777]

I can see your frustration. Why dont people ever discuss this among other "non-Pastors". It seems that it is something that people want to avoid it. Maybe they are not well versed in the subject matter, or they dont feel comfortable discussing things if other people have differing thoughts.

That is why I believe it is good to surround yourself with people you can discuss synod stuff with, church doctrine, stcripture, etc. I know I do. Some are pastors, some are not.

[C.F.W. Walther]

That is why I believe it is good to surround yourself with people you can discuss synod stuff with, church doctrine, stcripture, etc. I know I do. Some are pastors, some are not.

That's why I join forums like this and read on other ones like LQ and I have tried to surround myself with people that can increase my knowledge. My pastor and I are good griends and share info. I have allways been someone that is willing to learn new things every day.

I was management for a few years and recognize the procedure for maintaning authority. I recognize the need to establish it in business but I don't see how it equates in the church were we are to be servants. Servants serve one another and don't lord it over another person. Teaching is done in love and not because of authority. Everyhting is supposed to done to edify the church. I Don't remember the passge but it's something like; Everyone that is greater will be lesser and everone the is lesser will be greater. The sermon on the mount is a prime example of "the least of these".

[filosofer]

Having been around a while myself... ;) I share some of that frustration.

I have often heard pastors who assume that making doctrinally correct declarations passes for sermons. Not preaching consistently in the past year, I have the opportunity to hear quite a few pastors preach. Recently I heard a pastor who presented a sermon that was superb in terms of doctrinal content. While I was trying to follow the sermon theme/outline/pattern (which was NOT there), I observed many in the pews. He was not connecting in any way with the people. Was he personable? Yep. Was he enthusiastic about preaching and his goal? Yep. But he never brought the Law to the people, and he never brought the Gospel to them. Did he mention law? Yep. Did he mention Gospel? Yep, but not so much as a whisper of either was close to the people - I have worshiped and studied with these people for several years, so I know them. He could have used The House of Seven Gables, and been as effective.

Had I been grading the sermon (and I have graded a few), it would have received a failing grade. Sometimes I wonder how some parishioners put up with the junk that is passed off as sermons, even by confessionally sound pastors.

But then this is a call for me to examine my sermons. If I can't engage someone in that wonderful, creative Word, if I can't speak to the heart of people to cause them to die under the piercing sword of the Law, if I can't raise them from the dead wih the Gospel, then I have failed. But I can never substitute doctrinal faithfulness for appropriate sermon preparation and delivery. Should a sermon be doctrinally correct? Absolutely! And pastors ought to strive every day to bring that doctrinal integrity into sermon preparation. Yes, God can use even a bad sermon, but that is not license to preach badly.

Someone once said that "Hell for pastors is to listen to their own sermons". I think more of us should listen to our sermons, then get on our knees and ask for forgiveness.

[Jenna]

I, personally, have never felt the way that you do. However, I understand that my situation is far different from that of some. My pastor has always made a point to explain everything completely, even if it means going into great length about greek, latin, etc. He has always made a point to tell us that we ARE smart enough to understand, and that he would not insult our intelligence by keeping information from us. From what I have heard though, there are many pastors who do not share this same desire to help their congregations understand the scriptures, confessions, and creeds fully.

I have never felt distanced from a pastor for wearing vestments, or anything of the like. Actually, the robes of his office help me more to see him as my teacher, and a ram among the flock. Clothing has never intimidated me, but I've had plenty of funky attitudes rock me back on my heels. For some reason, a scowling man is just as intimidating in a suit as he is in vestments. Hmm....

Oh, and you have had more schooling than me, Radido! :)

[Protoevangel]

""I've barely got a year of college under my belt.

-- THIS PARAGRAPH CENSORED BY THE PC POLICE --

For a short while, I was visiting a start-up PCA church because I heard great things about the pastor. Those great things were understated. The Holy Spirit truly spoke through this man! He pounded you with the Law, until you were a bloody pulp, helpless and nearly in tears. Then just like he knew exactly what you were thinking, when you could take no more, he hit you with the exquisite beauty and freedom of the Gospel. Thinking back on his sermons makes me feel like I was listening to Luther himself (whom he quoted more often than anyone else.) Since then, he has decided not to continue pursuing the PCA church, and is now attending an LCMS church himself.

Like I alluded to above, I am no intellectual giant but I am comfortable with the basics. When I talk to my pastor and he tries to floor me with some pseudo-Scriptural garbage, I am able to hold my own, maybe not on his level, but I can still tell when he is feeding baloney.

My question is, do you trust your pastor? If you do... if you can, I envy you. Don't let the little things like robes and collars and education trip you up.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Is it possible that you have inner disappointments that you wanted to be a Pastor but are not?
:confused: :confused:


Interesting insight Jim. Gave me pause for thought. I think there is a closet "somebody" in every person. In certain incidents I've thought that I could do better than some ministers just because of their bland presentation and not connectiong to the congregation. As filosopfer said. Was he personable? Yep. Was he enthusiastic about preaching and his goal? Yep. But he never brought the Law to the people, and he never brought the Gospel to them. Did he mention law? Yep. Did he mention Gospel? Yep, but not so much as a whisper of either was close to the people But then on the other hand is "connecting" with the people an emotion or a reality. Am I there for the "feel good" experience or ministering to my spirit? Sometimes a sermon might not seem to affect people but in the long run. if the scripture quotes are used only the inevitable will happen. "My word will not return to me void". Sadly to say I have done a lot of yawning and nodding at sermons that, to me, had spirtual content but marginal presentation. A pastor, years ago, had a plaque permanently attached to the pulpit. It said "Let then see Jesus". Wise words.

[C.F.W. Walther]

My question is, do you trust your pastor? If you do... if you can, I envy you. Don't let the little things like robes and collars and education trip you up.

Dan I do trust him explicitly. He is a confessional/conservative pastor BUT he isn't fullfiliing his responsibilities as stated in his call. Our concern with him is manyfold. He isn't participating much with rest home visits, followups on perspective parishoners, evangelism (His qoute is all we have to do is pray for new members), equiping the saints (evangelism programs, teaching seminars), Our congregation is shrinking, our attendance is abysmal and our finances or fluctuating between red and balck every quarter. He is SOOOO against Willow Creek and PLI and the money from that, that he goes in extreme in the other direction.........

oops excuse me. I'm late for VBS--more later

[SPALATIN]

I have had a college education, though it came later for me than most. I took almost 10 years off before going back to college and the catalyst of it all was the death of my father when I was 27. I took a long look at my life as one is apt to do when experiencing the loss of someone so close, and I saw that without a college education I could not expect to ever make a certain income or be able to support myself let alone a family.


Now skip ahead 16 years after my father died and I have a job I can tolerate, I have a wife of 10 years, 2 adorable little girls and a house that takes both mine and my wifes income to support.

So in the frustration with Pastors dept of this thread. My frustration has been that many of them have strayed from what they were trained in seminary to pleasing a certain few in the congregation.

The best thing I ever did though was purchase for myself a copy of the BoC (Kolb-Wengert) a couple of years ago. This tool in and of itself has made me realize what I so desperately want to see in church, but have only witnessed in a couple of places. My knowledge of the Confessions though has been a thorn in a few liberal Pastor's sides because they know that I am not just going to throw my hands in the air and give up. I am going to further study and determine for myself what truth is in scripture and confession.

I highly encourage people to check out the new Concordia that they are talking about on LQ lately. It is about $20 and has the Confessions, apology, Catechisms et.al.

This will do wonders for your bible studies as well. You will be able to see how the confessions are a total exposition of what the scriptures teach.

Fight the Good fight with all your might
Christ is your strength and Christ your might
Lay hold on life and it will be
your joy and crown eternally

[ctay]

I feel a little fustrated sometimes. I started going to a small church. The sermons are good, communion every sunday. I want to do more in the church but its limited. The women's group isn't going right now, seems like they do a lot for the kids though but there's no choir, which would be nice even if they had a handbell choir, I'd join it. This church has been going for about 6 yrs now but I just found out about it this year.
I may feel fustrated but God must of led me there for a purpose. I need to pray for guidance to help me out.

[filosofer]

But then on the other hand is "connecting" with the people an emotion or a reality. Am I there for the "feel good" experience or ministering to my spirit? Sometimes a sermon might not seem to affect people but in the long run. if the scripture quotes are used only the inevitable will happen. "My word will not return to me void". Sadly to say I have done a lot of yawning and nodding at sermons that, to me, had spirtual content but marginal presentation. A pastor, years ago, had a plaque permanently attached to the pulpit. It said "Let then see Jesus". Wise words.


The "connecting" that I intended in my post was to minister to the spirit/heart of the person. The quote "Let them see Jesus" reflects the reality that Jesus met people where they were, spoke into their situation the appropriate Law and the appropriate Gospel. The sermons/evangelism events in Acts reflect that same personal interest in people, while maintaining doctrinal integrity.

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I was born, raised and educated 'lutheran' 17 plus years.
then a little at a time for 30 plus years i learned that 'lutherans' carry over a lot that is not in Scripture from the person or from the office that is acknowledged by lutheran synods and some/most members as identified by Scripture as anitchrist : they mostly don't/haven't learned to discern what is true from Scripture (even 'sola scriptura' adherents at church and on this forum don't return to God's Word, but to what they think or were taught about God's Word)
. . . Perhaps the most important detail is that synods and/or denoms have not safeguarded God's Word, but only portions of it fit around man's traditions. For people born into a church, God takes that into account, according to God's Word, before/while judging them or delivering them if they are willing to be obedient in faith.
for reference, the jewish forums/threads are the easiest place to learn the difference between what God's Word says and what the vast majority of churches say and practice today.
remember the enemy of Messiah Yeshua was already in control of the organised governments and world church by 300 or 400 a.d. -- even the church at that time was and had been persecuting, imprisoning and killing the followers /disciples of Jesus. This is simply the history as you can find out over the next 10 minutes or ten years as God allows
and just as Scripture verifies without argument.
Scripture says that God has set His witness in every land/country so that no one has a plausible excuse for not knowing;
yet Scripture also plainly says that very few even care to know [the Truth].... (this is observably and testably true in the u.s.a. and in most churches whereever you live or go). . . .
Scripture offers that no one who obediently trusts God will ever be disappointed,
and likewise that whoever trusts man (flesh) is under a curse. . .
Choose today whom you will serve; as for me and my house, we shall serve Adonai Elohim by the Grace poured out lavishly and generously in Yeshua according to Yhwh's Plan.
To as many as are willing, He says 'Come' (to Himself).

[filosofer]

I was born, raised and educated 'lutheran' 17 plus years.
then a little at a time for 30 plus years i learned that 'lutherans' carry over a lot that is not in Scripture from the person or from the office that is acknowledged by lutheran synods and some/most members as identified by Scripture as anitchrist : they mostly don't/haven't learned to discern what is true from Scripture (even 'sola scriptura' adherents at church and on this forum don't return to God's Word, but to what they think or were taught about God's Word)

Generalizations seldom reflect reality. So, if you quote Scripture it is absolute but if I, as a Lutheran, quote Scripture it is to be discarded? hmmmmm....



. . . Perhaps the most important detail is that synods and/or denoms have not safeguarded God's Word, but only portions of it fit around man's traditions. For people born into a church, God takes that into account, according to God's Word, before/while judging them or delivering them if they are willing to be obedient in faith.
for reference, the jewish forums/threads are the easiest place to learn the difference between what God's Word says and what the vast majority of churches say and practice today.

So, now it is the "Jewish denomination" that has the truth of God's Word. And how is it that their statements are any better or more accurate?


remember the enemy of Messiah Yeshua was already in control of the organised governments and world church by 300 or 400 a.d. -- even the church at that time was and had been persecuting, imprisoning and killing the followers /disciples of Jesus. This is simply the history as you can find out over the next 10 minutes or ten years as God allows
and just as Scripture verifies without argument.


Okay, so now it is no longer the Scriptures but "history" that is the authority? But not just history, but now you claim that Scripture verifies your interpretation of history? I think you have this backward.

In Christ's love,
filo

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Generalizations seldom reflect reality. So, if you quote Scripture it is absolute but if I, as a Lutheran, quote Scripture it is to be discarded? hmmmmm....

that's a generalization (and isn't what i said) , so.....


So, now it is the "Jewish denomination" that has the truth of God's Word. And how is it that their statements are any better or more accurate?


to whom did Yhwh entrust the Scriptures - the Jews or goyim ?

Okay, so now it is no longer the Scriptures but "history" that is the authority? But not just history, but now you claim that Scripture verifies your interpretation of history? I think you have this backward.

In Christ's love,
filo



... whose interpretation of history ? what interpretation ? that's a cover or a coverup of what happened, isn't it, instead of simply telling what happened.
In Scripture it is Written what would happen, and did happen, and will happen. A little child will see it, but it is forbidden to the scholars, according to Jesus' own words in the Gospel.

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Perhaps because I'm the son and grandson of ministers, I've NEVER felt any "gap" at all.....

The ministers I know are humble people, EAGER to discuss openly and equally - as long as we, too, come with humility and a keen sense of community, as brothers in Christ - seeking His will and truth rather than to prove ourselves right.

During my years of homeschooling, my mother was my religion teacher until I was about 12. She (being raised Lutheran) choose to use CPH day school materials for my religion instruction and I no doubt got a Lutheran "twist" on things. When Dad assumed the role of teacher, he choose to continue with CPH stuff. We did the Confirmation course, a couple of other things, and then began a 3 year study of F. Pieper's 3 vol. work, Christian Dogmatics. My father is not a Lutheran pastor but does have a doctorate and has read Luther extensively. My grandfather, now a retired pastor, helped out at times since my Dad was not always sure what Pieper was expressing. My grandfather gave me two shorter books to help: A Summery of Christian Dogmatics by Koehler and Christian Dogmatics by Mueller (not very creative names for books, huh?). They usually said the same things, but occasionally a bit easier. We did a bit of work in the Book of Concord, too (I now have two editions of that). My grandfather and I often had GREAT discussions, never a BIT of "gap" between us but then it wasn't just a pastor/layman discussion, he's my beloved grandfather. My current pastor and I have had a few chats - and now that I'm out of school, I hope to have more. He says he loves our chats and just a couple of weeks ago renewed his invite to buy me breakfast anytime I want to discuss stuff.


So, my experience has never involved any "us vs. them" at all. Quite the opposite. One of the things I so admire about Lutherans is their sense of humility and community, how the Theology of the Cross seems to impact everything. It's one of the reasons I became Lutheran.



Thank you for permitting me to share my thoughts.



Pax


- Josiah



.

[seajoy]

Perhaps because I'm the son and grandson of ministers, I've NEVER felt any "gap" at all.....

The ministers I know are humble people, EAGER to discuss openly and equally - as long as we, too, come with humility and a keen sense of community, as brothers in Christ - seeking His will and truth rather than to prove ourselves right.

During my years of homeschooling, my mother was my religion teacher until I was about 12. She (being raised Lutheran) choose to use CPH day school materials for my religion instruction and I no doubt got a Lutheran "twist" on things. When Dad assumed the role of teacher, he choose to continue with CPH stuff. We did the Confirmation course, a couple of other things, and then began a 3 year study of F. Pieper's 3 vol. work, Christian Dogmatics. My father is not a Lutheran pastor but does have a doctorate and has read Luther extensively. My grandfather, now a retired pastor, helped out at times since my Dad was not always sure what Pieper was expressing. My grandfather gave me two shorter books to help: A Summery of Christian Dogmatics by Koehler and Christian Dogmatics by Mueller (not very creative names for books, huh?). They usually said the same things, but occasionally a bit easier. We did a bit of work in the Book of Concord, too (I now have two editions of that). My grandfather and I often had GREAT discussions, never a BIT of "gap" between us but then it wasn't just a pastor/layman discussion, he's my beloved grandfather. My current pastor and I have had a few chats - and now that I'm out of school, I hope to have more. He says he loves our chats and just a couple of weeks ago renewed his invite to buy me breakfast anytime I want to discuss stuff.


So, my experience has never involved any "us vs. them" at all. Quite the opposite. One of the things I so admire about Lutherans is their sense of humility and community, how the Theology of the Cross seems to impact everything. It's one of the reasons I became Lutheran.



Thank you for permitting me to share my thoughts.



Pax


- Josiah



.
Excellent post! :)

[C.F.W. Walther]

Perhaps because I'm the son and grandson of ministers, I've NEVER felt any "gap" at all.....

The ministers I know are humble people, EAGER to discuss openly and equally - as long as we, too, come with humility and a keen sense of community, as brothers in Christ - seeking His will and truth rather than to prove ourselves right.

During my years of homeschooling, my mother was my religion teacher until I was about 12. She (being raised Lutheran) choose to use CPH day school materials for my religion instruction and I no doubt got a Lutheran "twist" on things. When Dad assumed the role of teacher, he choose to continue with CPH stuff. We did the Confirmation course, a couple of other things, and then began a 3 year study of F. Pieper's 3 vol. work, Christian Dogmatics. My father is not a Lutheran pastor but does have a doctorate and has read Luther extensively. My grandfather, now a retired pastor, helped out at times since my Dad was not always sure what Pieper was expressing. My grandfather gave me two shorter books to help: A Summery of Christian Dogmatics by Koehler and Christian Dogmatics by Mueller (not very creative names for books, huh?). They usually said the same things, but occasionally a bit easier. We did a bit of work in the Book of Concord, too (I now have two editions of that). My grandfather and I often had GREAT discussions, never a BIT of "gap" between us but then it wasn't just a pastor/layman discussion, he's my beloved grandfather. My current pastor and I have had a few chats - and now that I'm out of school, I hope to have more. He says he loves our chats and just a couple of weeks ago renewed his invite to buy me breakfast anytime I want to discuss stuff.


So, my experience has never involved any "us vs. them" at all. Quite the opposite. One of the things I so admire about Lutherans is their sense of humility and community, how the Theology of the Cross seems to impact everything. It's one of the reasons I became Lutheran.



Thank you for permitting me to share my thoughts.



Pax


- Josiah



.This gap you're talking about is probably not the "gap" that is happening in LCMS. I also know some very conscientious pastors. The point is not them but the synod and their running rough shod over the laity and consolidating power to themselves.
ram.
Synod is even into "controlling" the ministers. I know one that is a very confessional pastor and becasue he has made waves in the past they have taken away his retirement and health program.