What’s wrong with Charismatic churches?

[MagusAlbertus]

I’ve known some people that went from being coke-addicts to people living a life for Christ in churches that gave them religious fervor to help them past there problems.

I know some charismatics look at the outside rather than the in, but that’s not always the case. So my question isn’t about hypocrisy or materialism that sometimes surrounds charismatic churches, but rather what fundamentally disagrees with God’s word when it comes to a charismatic church?

Responses in a loving heart and supported by scripture, please.

[jlujan69]

From my own readings and discussions with non-Charismatics and non-Pentecostals, one of the basic areas of disagreements is on the use of "certain" spiritual gifts. We Pentecostals believe that all the spiritual gifts are in operation, but there are churches which cite 1 Cor. 13:8-11 to support their position of cessation of those three gifts mentioned--tongues, prophecy, and knowledge. Therefore, their conclusion is that any claimed manifestation of these gifts is, at best, emotionally based, at worst, demonic. There's also the issue of eternal security of the believer. Many believe in unconditional eternal security (once saved, always saved), but we to believe that man can forfeit salvation by becoming reprobate. The doctrine of divine healing is also hotly contested sometimes. Some say that God heals through modern medicine and only rarely via divine healing, while we say that Jehovah Rapha still miraculously heals people rather frequently. Both sides use Scripture to bolster their respective positions. Besides the ones you mentioned in your post, these are the only other ones that I can think of that cause such a stir.

[MikeMcK]

There's nothing unbiblical about the charismatic movement, in and of itself, but there seems to be a sub-culture within the charismatic movement that is more concerned with flashy experiences rather than doctrinal integrity and a superficial presentation of the Gospel. As someone who's both a fundamentalist and a charismatic, that really concerns me.

I believe that it's this crowd that's responsible for the rise of the WoF movement.

[e=mv^2]

Well said Mike.

[twistedsketch]

There's nothing unbiblical about the charismatic movement, in and of itself, but there seems to be a sub-culture within the charismatic movement that is more concerned with flashy experiences rather than doctrinal integrity and a superficial presentation of the Gospel. As someone who's both a fundamentalist and a charismatic, that really concerns me.

I believe that it's this crowd that's responsible for the rise of the WoF movement.
Those kinds of charismatic churches are what I don't like about charismatic Christianity. I've spent some time with charismatics who on the whole were pretty solid, but when you get REALLY charismatic like Benny Hinn, that is the problem. I also have a problem with the doctrine of those who can't speak in tounges aren't really saved. 1 Corintians 12 is very clear that 1) not all Christians have the same gifts, such as tounges and 2) no matter how a Christian is gifted/not gifted, that does not make him/her better or worse than a differently gifted or "more" gifted believer. I have not found a charismatic church yet that really takes this to heart. So I guess you can call me a non-charismatic non-cessationalist.

[jlujan69]

Those kinds of charismatic churches are what I don't like about charismatic Christianity. I've spent some time with charismatics who on the whole were pretty solid, but when you get REALLY charismatic like Benny Hinn, that is the problem. I also have a problem with the doctrine of those who can't speak in tounges aren't really saved. 1 Corintians 12 is very clear that 1) not all Christians have the same gifts, such as tounges and 2) no matter how a Christian is gifted/not gifted, that does not make him/her better or worse than a differently gifted or "more" gifted believer. I have not found a charismatic church yet that really takes this to heart. So I guess you can call me a non-charismatic non-cessationalist.

The church which espouses this doctrine is not even Christian itself since they also deny the Trinity, believe in salvation by works, and many of them claim that only through their group can you be saved.

[Victorian Rose]

There's nothing unbiblical about the charismatic movement, in and of itself, but there seems to be a sub-culture within the charismatic movement that is more concerned with flashy experiences rather than doctrinal integrity and a superficial presentation of the Gospel. As someone who's both a fundamentalist and a charismatic, that really concerns me.

I believe that it's this crowd that's responsible for the rise of the WoF movement.

Being a fundamentalist and charismatic and WOF I have to disagree with you here. Most of us WOF are not concerned with flashy experiences and superficial presentations. What you see on TV doesn't usually accurately reflect WOF.

[MagusAlbertus]

salvation by grace through faith, not works or ritual. It's something we've had to tell cults for many years now, i do hope it's not a lesson that WOF has chosen to remove from there teachings.



http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/w-f.htm
Robert Tilton is normative. On a Trinity Broadcasting Network program in 1990 he said:

"Being poor is a sin, when God promises prosperity. New house? New car? That's chicken feed. That's nothing compared to what God wants to do for you" Materalism as a relegion

disgusting.

[e=mv^2]

Victorian Rose
Maybe you could give us some info on WoF from your perspective? Is there an official website?

[MikeMcK]

Being a fundamentalist and charismatic and WOF I have to disagree with you here. Most of us WOF are not concerned with flashy experiences and superficial presentations. What you see on TV doesn't usually accurately reflect WOF.

Go and check out the WoF forums here sometime.

If you're concerned in the least about doctrinal integrity, what passes for the mainstream there will make you sick to your stomach.

[Victorian Rose]

Go and check out the WoF forums here sometime.

If you're concerned in the least about doctrinal integrity, what passes for the mainstream there will make you sick to your stomach.

I mod those forums. Sometimes things are taken to an extreme. I am very blessed to have found a wonderful church and pastor that is very much down to earth and fundamental in his approach.

e=mv^2, What I think you are wanting is a doctrine statement that holds true for every church that calls themselves WOF. There isn't one. The leaders have never gotten together to draft a statement.

I can give you some of our beliefs. We believe that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today. We believe in God's healing power and healing doesn't always mean right this instant. We believe that God wants to bless His children and bless doesn't always equal a monetary gain. We believe in having a close personal relationship with the Lord. To do that we have to spend time in prayer, worship and studying the bible.

MagnusAlbertus, I agree with your statement. Saying that being poor is a sin is disgusting. Again, I will say that what you see on TV doesn't accurately reflect WOF. Also I can not say for sure that what that site quoted is accurate. I do not watch TBN or follow closely the Crouches or Tilton or Hinn. The only time I hear about them is when people use them as examples of WOF. What I have heard of them isn't what I am taught or believe.

[MikeMcK]

I mod those forums. Sometimes things are taken to an extreme.

So, how many people have to believe something before the extreme becomes mainstream?

This isn't a rare occurance, this is common there.

I can give you some of our beliefs.

Believe me, I know what WoF teaches.

I had all of the books, all of the tapes and newsletters, went to all of the "healing schools", etc

As a new Christian, I got caught up in the WoF movement for about three years before God delivered me out of it.

[e=mv^2]

Would you say that the doctrine taught by WoF would be classified as fundamentalist? Is there some doctrine which seperates from scripture?

From what I have seen, the most visible WoF leaders are caught up in some very dangerous thinking. When you have a teacher that is caught up in dangerous thinking you also have dangerous teaching.
The leaders have never gotten together to draft a statement. Maybe they are too busy teaching stuff like Kenneth Copeland:

He allowed the devil to drag Him into the depths of hell as if He were the most wicked sinner who ever lived ... Every demon in hell came down on Him to annihilate Him ... [They] tortured Him beyond anything that anybody has ever conceived ... In a thunder of spiritual force, the voice of God spoke to the death-whipped, broken, punished spirit of Jesus ... the pit of destruction, and charged the spirit of Jesus with resurrection power! Suddenly His twisted, death-wracked spirit began to fill out and come back to life ... He was literally being reborn before the devil's very eyes. He began to flex His spiritual muscles ... Jesus Christ dragged Satan up and down the halls of hell ... Jesus ... was raised up a born-again man ... The day I realized that a born-again man had defeated Satan, hell, and death, I got so excited ... !
Where did he get this?

How about this?:
Copeland claims that God is a being who stands about 6'2"-6'3", weighing somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds, and has a hand span of 9" across ([i]Christianity in Crisis, p. 121). Copeland also declares "Adam was the copy, looked just like (God). If you stood Adam beside God, they looked just exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side-by-side, they would look and sound exactly alike

This guy is crazy!

Frederick K.C. Price says:
Now this is a shocker! But God has to be given permission to work in this earth realm on behalf of man. … Yes! You are in control! So if man has control, who no longer has it? God. ... When God gave Adam dominion, that meant God no longer had dominion. So, God cannot do anything on this earth unless we let Him or give Him permission through prayer

Are these common teachings for WoF?:
1) Christ was re-created on the cross from divine to demonic. To put it in Faith vernacular, Jesus took on the very nature of Satan himself.
2) Your redemption was not secured on the cross, but in hell. In fact, many Faith teachers claim that Christ's torture by all the demons of hell was a "ransom" God paid to Satan so that He could get back into a universe from which He had been banished.
3) Jesus was reborn (or born again) in the very pit of hell.
4) Christ was reincarnated through His rebirth in hell and that those who (like Christ) are born again can become "incarnated" as well.

Binny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland both claim to have had personal visits from God himself. Is it really that hard to spot a false prophet? They both claim that Jesus took on Satan's nature? Name it and claim it?
Kenneth Copeland denies the trinity?

It is REALLY easy to find MOUNDS of really really BAD evidence against WoF but all the good we can find is one person saying: " I am very blessed to have found a wonderful church and pastor that is very much down to earth and fundamental in his approach. "

Guess what? YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO GET LUCKY TO FIND SUCH A PREACHER. That should be the norm not the exception.

Binny Hinn:
I feel the anointing talking here.
If anyone says this you need to really have a look at what they say next. If it is anything like the following - run.
People are going to be canceling funeral services and bringing their dead in their caskets, placing them -- my God! I feel the anointing here -- placing them before a television set, waiting for God's power to come through and touch them. And it's going to happen time and time -- so much it's going to spread. You're going to hear it from Kenya to Mexico to Europe to South America, where people will be raised from the -- so much so that the Word will spread that if some dead person be put in front of this TV screen, they will be raised from the dead and they will be by the thousands. You wait. Now the Lord just told me -- and I don't know whether this is true or not -- as I'm saying this, the Lord said He gave you that word many, many years ago.

[twistedsketch]

The Lord told him - and he doesn't even know if it's true or not. That's a good one.

[MikeMcK]

People are going to be canceling funeral services and bringing their dead in their caskets, placing them -- my God! I feel the anointing here -- placing them before a television set, waiting for God's power to come through and touch them. And it's going to happen time and time -- so much it's going to spread. You're going to hear it from Kenya to Mexico to Europe to South America, where people will be raised from the -- so much so that the Word will spread that if some dead person be put in front of this TV screen, they will be raised from the dead and they will be by the thousands. You wait. Now the Lord just told me -- and I don't know whether this is true or not -- as I'm saying this, the Lord said He gave you that word many, many years ago.

I was in the WoF movement for about three years and one of the churches I went to, briefly, during that time was World Harvest Christian Center, under a guy named Pastor Bob Palmer.

One night, he said from the pulpit that people weren't going to believe the Gospel until they saw us healing people and raising the dead. He went on to tell about how he, personally, had prayed for someone's leg to be healed and the leg miraculously grew six inches. Then, naturally, he asked for money.

Anyway, after the show, I fought my way through his entourage and asked him, "if Jesus said that the angel told the Rich Man, 'your brothers have the law of Moses and the prophets [scripture] and they don't believe. What makes you think that they would believe a man returned from the dead?'" and "Didn't Jesus call those who followed after signs and wonders 'wicked and adulterous'?"

Needless to say, I was asked not to come back.

That was one of the things that God used to show me the truth about the WoF movement.

[MikeMcK]

The Lord told him - and he doesn't even know if it's true or not. That's a good one.

I don't really know what to say to that.

I think Elvis Costello said it best: "I used to be disgusted. Now, I'm just amused."

[Victorian Rose]

Would you say that the doctrine taught by WoF would be classified as fundamentalist? Is there some doctrine which seperates from scripture?

From what I have seen, the most visible WoF leaders are caught up in some very dangerous thinking. When you have a teacher that is caught up in dangerous thinking you also have dangerous teaching.
Maybe they are too busy teaching stuff like Kenneth Copeland:


Where did he get this?

How about this?:


This guy is crazy!

Frederick K.C. Price says:


Are these common teachings for WoF?:


Binny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland both claim to have had personal visits from God himself. Is it really that hard to spot a false prophet? They both claim that Jesus took on Satan's nature? Name it and claim it?
Kenneth Copeland denies the trinity?

It is REALLY easy to find MOUNDS of really really BAD evidence against WoF but all the good we can find is one person saying:

Guess what? YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE TO GET LUCKY TO FIND SUCH A PREACHER. That should be the norm not the exception.

Binny Hinn:

If anyone says this you need to really have a look at what they say next. If it is anything like the following - run.

WOW! I have never even heard of these quotes or doctrines you found. Since I do not follow these men I can not say what is true and what is not as far as what they teach or say.

I did not get lucky to find such a church. I was blessed and God put me where he wanted me.

It is really easy to find mounds of evidence against any denomination. It happens across the board.

[e=mv^2]

It is really easy to find mounds of evidence against any denomination. It happens across the board.
It is also very easy to find their formal doctrine statements.

WOW! I have never even heard of these quotes or doctrines you found. Since I do not follow these men I can not say what is true and what is not as far as what they teach or say.
I am glad that your preacher is not espousing the tripe listed above. The question is: If the most visible people in the denomination are false prophets - do you continue to associate with them? If so- Can you help them make a change for the better?

Is it reasonable that if someone tells you they are catholic that you assume they belive that the Pope is their leader?
Is it reasonable tht if someone tells you they are baptist that you assume they believe in immersion baptism?
Is it reasonable that if someone tells you that they are Muslim that you assume they pray toward mecca?

What then is it reasonable to assume when someone says they are WoF?
When people blindly associate themselves with a denomination not knowing what their official doctrine is and then try to tell me based on hearing one preacher (who might just spring something on you next week) that the official doctrine is "not part of thier church" I get skeptical.

[Victorian Rose]

It is also very easy to find their formal doctrine statements.


I am glad that your preacher is not espousing the tripe listed above. The question is: If the most visible people in the denomination are false prophets - do you continue to associate with them? If so- Can you help them make a change for the better?

Is it reasonable that if someone tells you they are catholic that you assume they belive that the Pope is their leader?
Is it reasonable tht if someone tells you they are baptist that you assume they believe in immersion baptism?
Is it reasonable that if someone tells you that they are Muslim that you assume they pray toward mecca?

What then is it reasonable to assume when someone says they are WoF?
When people blindly associate themselves with a denomination not knowing what their official doctrine is and then try to tell me based on hearing one preacher (who might just spring something on you next week) that the official doctrine is "not part of thier church" I get skeptical.

I don't find it reasonable to assume anything of anyone until they say it. That is why I ask questions and listen. One thing that CF has taught me is not to look at people with preset ideas on what they believe according to thier denomination or icon. There are many people with different beliefs within the same denomination on this board.

I do not associate with false prophets. The only thing I can do to help change them for the better is pray for them. God is the one that will have to open their eyes and soften their hearts. Talking badly about someone does not do anyone any good including the person doing the talking.

[Svt4Him]

WOW! I have never even heard of these quotes or doctrines you found. Since I do not follow these men I can not say what is true and what is not as far as what they teach or say.

I did not get lucky to find such a church. I was blessed and God put me where he wanted me.

It is really easy to find mounds of evidence against any denomination. It happens across the board.

Don't worry, I saw a site on how people have misused quotes and actually twisted them so much, that they no longer resemble what was said in the first place.

I will try and find the link, it was amazing.

It is also very easy to find their formal doctrine statements.


I am glad that your preacher is not espousing the tripe listed above. The question is: If the most visible people in the denomination are false prophets - do you continue to associate with them? If so- Can you help them make a change for the better?

The most visible person in my denomination is my pastor. Unless you say quotes from the internet about someone who I've never heard say those things makes it correct. But wait a sec, doesn't the Bible say it's foolish to listen to one side of a story? What about not even hearing one side, but hearing one person tell about hearing one side?

Is it reasonable that if someone tells you they are catholic that you assume they belive that the Pope is their leader?
Is it reasonable tht if someone tells you they are baptist that you assume they believe in immersion baptism?
Is it reasonable that if someone tells you that they are Muslim that you assume they pray toward mecca?

What then is it reasonable to assume when someone says they are WoF?
When people blindly associate themselves with a denomination not knowing what their official doctrine is and then try to tell me based on hearing one preacher (who might just spring something on you next week) that the official doctrine is "not part of thier church" I get skeptical.

No it's not reasonable and totally unrelated. Feel free to get skeptical, but the problem is you've moved from skeptical into being blindly critical.

[e=mv^2]

The most visible person in my denomination is my pastor.
For you or for the public at large? Is your pastor on some sort of council? Who does the public see as the main representative of your faith. What if I wanted to consider your denomination? It seems that no majority of congregations can agree on what it is that they believe. How am I to know that 6 months down the road the preacher is not going to drop a "no trinity" bomb on me?

But wait a sec, doesn't the Bible say it's foolish to listen to one side of a story? What about not even hearing one side, but hearing one person tell about hearing one side?
Therein lies the rub my friend. The side of the story that is available is the one that is antagonistic. I can not get an official doctrinal statement to look at. There is a mountain of badness and only 2 people with shovels at this point. I have not made any judgement on WoF for myself. I am however pointing out the fact that there is an impressive collection of heretical statements that are being directly associated with "WoF Leaders".

No it's not reasonable and totally unrelated.
I disagree. If someone walks up to me and says: "I am a buddhist" then it is reasonable to assume that they are a buddhist.
If someone says "I am mormon" then it is reasonable to assume that they are in fact mormon. It is very easy to find out what it is that mormons believe. It is not unreasonable to assume that the person (who already associate themselves with the teaching) knows the beliefs of the mormons and agrees with them.

Tell you what - ignore what you now know about WoF and go out to the web and try to get some info on them. Tell me what you come up with.

Remember - you know nothing about them so try to be neutral.

[MagusAlbertus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_of_faith

The Word of Faith movement or word-faith theology developed in the latter half of the 20th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century) in mainly Pentecostal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostal) and Charismatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charismatic) churches. Its beginnings trace back to an early twentieth century evangelical pastor, E.W. Kenyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.W._Kenyon) (1867-1948), who preached that God would award financial and other gifts if the faithful would ask. Kenyon coined the phrase,

[irenemcg]

For those of you who refute all current movement of the Holy Spirit can I ask did the Lord pour out His Spirit at Pentecost just for a short time, was it just for the early church?

Mar 16:15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."
Mar 16:19 So then, after the Lord had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven, and sat down at the right hand of God.
Mar 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word through the accompanying signs. Amen.

Joe 2:28 "And it shall come to pass afterward
That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your old men shall dream dreams,
Your young men shall see visions.
Joe 2:29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days.

Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
Act 2:18 And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.


For years I was blinded to thosetruths, but praise the Lord He set me free of what I now fully believe to be the devil's deception.

[Albion]

For those of you who refute all current movement of the Holy Spirit can I ask did the Lord pour out His Spirit at Pentecost just for a short time, was it just for the early church?

There may be those who "refute all current movement of the Holy Spirit" but not everything attributed to the HS is necessarily a movement of his. Isn't that right?

I'd turn the question around and ask why those who believe in the "movement" of the Holy Spirit are unwilling to believe that there is any "move" in "movement?" That is, why would anyone believe that in guiding the church and its people, that the Holy Spirit must do always the same thing, even when the people and circumstances have changed?

[Albion]

I’ve known some people that went from being coke-addicts to people living a life for Christ in churches that gave them religious fervor to help them past there problems.

I know some charismatics look at the outside rather than the in, but that’s not always the case. So my question isn’t about hypocrisy or materialism that sometimes surrounds charismatic churches, but rather what fundamentally disagrees with God’s word when it comes to a charismatic church?

Responses in a loving heart and supported by scripture, please.

It has been said by critics of the modern charismatic movement that the thrust of the movement includes a welcoming of a wide range of theologies and beliefs, so long as the persons are charismatic. In other words, setting oneself apart from other Christians who are not charismatic is common, and including any charismatic in the "in" group regardless of the soundness of his other religious beliefs (or denomination) is also typical. If this shoe fits, it is a characteristic of the movement that is certainly not in the mainstream of Protestant, Bible-believing Christianity which has long held to the importance of sound doctrine.

[erin74]

I read something interesting from an evangelical who spent many years in charismatic churches. His main critique was that many of the things that the charasmatic movement has promoted over the years share a common theme (eg the if you don't speak in tongues you're not a christian, prosperity gospel stuff). They are all seeking blessings now that are really promised for heaven. They are seeking to experience what will be received in heaven. I am not saying this is true of every charasmatic, but a general theme of popular movements within this style of worship.

I thought it was an interesting thought....

There was a lot more to the article, but that was the thrust of it that I can recall.