The Rapture Exposed

[AngelusSax]

Hey all. I was just wondering if anyone here has read Barbara R. Rossing's book The Rapture Exposed: The Message of Hope in the Book of Revelation.

I just started reading it last night, and so far I like what I see. The idea of the book is to expose the heresy of the teaching that there will be some Glorious Rapture of the Church before the Tribulation and all that stuff.

Even more to my liking is that she, so far (I'm only 30 pages into it right now), has not held back in naming names of people who are teaching sepcific points.

Anyway, has anyone here read the book already? Are there any other books out there dealing with this subject (not Christianity as a whole, but the whole end-times thing) that you like and would recommend? I really would like to have a lot of information to pull from when I am around my Rapture-minded friends and the discussion comes up.

[filosofer]

CPH published Things to Come for Planet Earth by Aaron Luther Plueger. May not find it on the CPH web site, but it was still listed on Amazon.com. It is the best overview from a Lutheran perspective that is understandable at the lay level. I had the privilege to talking to him about 12-13 years ago, right after he had released the 2nd edition. If you can find a copy, by all means, buy it.

Others that are helpful are:

Amillennialism by William Cox (Presb & Reformed Publishing)

Biblical Studies in Final Things William Cox

Prophecy and the Church by O. Allis

--------------
a few thoughts of my own:

The main categories end times discussion are:

1. pre-millennialism (Jesus returns secretly for the Church prior to the tribulation/earthly, physical millennium)

2. pre-millennial dispensationalism (extreme form of pre-millennialism, claiming that we are now in the dispensation of the Church/grace, which will give way when Christ comes secretly before the tribulation and next dispensation)

3. post-millennialism (Christians "improve" society so much that Christ comes to lead them phsycially in the millennium)

4. amillennialism (literally "no millennium" but in actuality no acceptance of a physical 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth.)

Pre-millennialism was one of two views (along with amillennialism) that has existed since the second century. Pre-millennial dispensationalism, on the other hand, is the view that developed in the 1800’s and now has caught the Christian community by storm (sorry for the pun). The most important influences have been the Scofield Bible and the Ryrie Study Bible. Both of these are dispensational in outlook.

The view that was popular 100 years ago among the mainline churches was called post-millennialism. This view stated that the Christian influence would gradually become so overwhelming that this would lead into the millennium. Post-millennialism was consistent with the political, spiritual, economic times of 100 years ago - solgans such as: the unshinkable ship, control and eliminate all diseases in our life time, the war to end all wars, etc. BTW, the war to end all wars (WWI) brought reality to post-millennialism - the world will keep getting worse, not better.

Contrary to popular discussion, amillennialists do believe in the millennium and the rapture. The questions are: what do they mean? and when do they take place?

Some claim: “They are named 'millennial' in their outlook because they expect a literal fulfillment of the 'Messiah's thousand year reign on earth' as described in Revelation chapter 20.” Not quite. What they expect is a “selective, literalistic fulfillment” of the reign. Do amillennialists believe in the millennium in Rev. 20? Yep. The question is what kind of millennial reign is it? 1 Cor. 15:26 helps greatly. It shows that Christ’s reign began when He ascended into heaven. Now what about Rev. 20? So, for the dispensationalists, we have to ask: Is it literally a thousand years? They would answer “yes.” What about the chain that holds Satan? Most scholars who hold this position would say, “no,” the chain is figurative. Thus, they are selective in their literalism, which can, and does, lead to all kinds of problems.

Others claim: “We lutherans tend to 'spiritualize' both the judgments and the promises, saying they are only references to historical happenings...”

Lutherans have held to the fulfillment of the Scriptures as Scripture intends. To say that we “spiritualize” is to accept the argument of the dispensationalists in their assessment of the Lutheran position. That is one of the problems that this entire issue faces. Terms that have good, solid, historical foundation have been changed to support a false teaching such as dispensationalism.

I had developed the curriculum and taught at two year Bible College at an independent “Charismatic” church. The first course the students are exposed to is one called the “New Testament Church.” It traces the Biblical approach to such issues as kingdom, reign, Israel, Church, God’s purpose, and God's will. It’s amazing what a little solid Biblical teaching will do to point out the errors of dispensationalism. But we cannot fall into the trap of letting them determine the language and the meaning of terms in these discussions. If we do surrender these terms then we move away from solid Biblical scholarship (I don’t mean intellectualism) that can help us avoid the errors.

I have more thoughts if you are interested. But I don't want to divert the thread.

[ctobola]

filosofer,

Thanks for a thoughtful overview of the Lutheran perspective on eschatology.

In my view, the "it's all about us" attitude seems to prevade much of the discussion in this area -- particuarly in the popular media (Left Behind...? don't get me started!) -- and I think that view is naieve.

The focus seems to be that Revalations was a secret code intended only for us in 2005 (or whenever someone had an opportunity to write a book). It had no meaning for anyone else and they could have just as well taken it out of their Bibles.

I think that misses the central message of Revelations (which I think is: God is in control at all times) and is remarkably egotistical and ahistoric.

Thanks again for your post.

-Cloy


CPH published Things to Come for Planet Earth by Aaron Luther Plueger. May not find it on the CPH web site, but it was still listed on Amazon.com....

[filosofer]

When we interpret a passage of the Bible we take it as literal, unless the context forces us to take it as figurative, and in that case the literal interpretation is the figurative one. Most people get confused by trying to make Revelation say something it does not. Thus, those who most loudly proclaim that they believe in a “literal” millennium, do not believe that the chain that holds Satan is literal - even though it is in the same context. This “hyper-literalism” (but selective literalism) leads to many of the false teachings regarding the end times.

Really the foundation for understanding the framework of the end times comes from the following passages: Matthew 24–25; Mark 13; Luke 21; Acts 2 (especially v. 17-21); Acts 15:13-21; Romans 9-11; 2 Corinthians 10-12; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-11; 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10; 2:1-12; 1 Peter 4:7-19; 2 Peter 2-3; and Jude. With that framework then we discover the “color” of the end times in Revelation. Isn’t it interesting that when John wrote Revelation he intended it as a book to reveal, encourage, and support Christians as they faced the trials and tribulations of first century faith. And yet so many today want to claim that Revelation meant nothing to the first readers, because it is all yet to come. Even more, as you read the passages above, you notice three themes: suffering, faithfulness, comfort/hope. Yet, the “Left Behind” series provides little of that. I’ve talked to many people who have read some or all of the books, and their common experience was that it induced fear - and these are Christians!

Thus, Revelation is a message of hope, comfort, encouragement, and worship even in the midst of suffering and despite that suffering and what our physical eyes tell us. As you read through Revelation notice how much of it has been incorporated into the worship life of the church. (Might also fit with Paul and Silas and their reactions to being beaten and imprisoned in Philippi, Acts 16:25 ff.)

Aside from the false teachings about the end times in the “Left Behind” series, the authors also present two other major errors. One is that every child under the age of twelve is “raptured” out in the so-called secret coming of Christ for the Church. Where in the Bible is the age limit placed on either condemnation or salvation? There isn’t any passage to support this view. Likewise, where does the New Testament teach two future comings of Jesus? It doesn’t. Read through the Gospels - not once is there a reference to two comings. Likewise in the letters. The authors refer to the “appearing” (singular).

Now does that mean Lutherans don’t believe in the rapture? Of course not! It is based on Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians 4:13–18. But Biblically the rapture occurs at the end when Christ comes in victory. Note how the author of Hebrews puts this:

Hebrews 9:26-28
“Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.”

Jesus came once (v. 26) and he appears a second time (v. 28). This Hebrews text is also significant because it mentions no possibility of a “second chance” (v. 27) - waiting for Christ’s secret coming then believing. In actuality, the end time comes for an individual either at the person’s death or at Christ’s appearing, neither of which we know or expect. Thus, the encouragement to “prepare, be ready, wait...” in the Gospels as well as the letters.

The second doctrinal problem relates to the re-institution of the sacrifices - that doesn’t quite square with what the New Testament tells us about the sufficiency and finality of Christ’s substitutionary death. Read the Hebrews passage again to note that point (v. 27).

[KagomeShuko]

I've never really read anything concerning this whole rapture.. .except when I did some studies. One of them was by Review and Herald. . .the Seventh-Day Adventist publishing group! Um, nevermind THAT stuff. There were some okay things, but some crazy things as well.

The other was the "Rejoice" series for High Schoolers once published by Augsburg Fortress - and I did like that. We still go back and use those old publications from AF. Good stuff from then, really!

Sadly, no books, though.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[IowaLutheran]

I read the book a few months ago. It is a quite thorough destruction of rapture theology. The best part is the epilogue, where the author takes the verses most commonly cited in favor of the rapture and debunks the rapture point by point.

I seem to recall that the author sometimes sometimes makes comments exposing (pardon the pun) her left-wing point of view, which is unfortunate because this isn't really a left wing vs right wing issue - the most die hard right wing LCMS and WELS Lutherans would agree with the theme of the book.

[AngelusSax]

Yes, I've run into the left-wing view a couple times in the book, but that doesn't bother me really. To be honest, sometimes right-wing views can be fairly scary (such as the Ann Coulter comment where she said God tells us to rape the earth...)

[Willy]

This is a wonderful book. I highly recommend it.

[AngelusSax]

OK, I finished the book a couple nights ago. I must say, it was a wonderful read. I'll probably read it again, and I think I'm gonna try leading a small discussion group on it for a few weeks (to really delve into each part of the book).

I'm glad I got it. The book makes a compelling case against Rapture at all (noting that when Christians are "caught up into the air" or however it's exactly worded, the Greek word for "met" is the same used in other instances where the meeting takes place in this way: The host goes out to the visitor and accompanies the visitor to the hosts' place)

I obviously liked the book well enough to quote it in my signature... and I really love the notation of the perversity of the Left Behind Theology:

For God so loved the world that he sent it to World War III. Heheheh

[Colabomb]

filosofer,

Thanks for a thoughtful overview of the Lutheran perspective on eschatology.

In my view, the "it's all about us" attitude seems to prevade much of the discussion in this area -- particuarly in the popular media (Left Behind...? don't get me started!) -- and I think that view is naieve.

The focus seems to be that Revalations was a secret code intended only for us in 2005 (or whenever someone had an opportunity to write a book). It had no meaning for anyone else and they could have just as well taken it out of their Bibles.

I think that misses the central message of Revelations (which I think is: God is in control at all times) and is remarkably egotistical and ahistoric.

Thanks again for your post.

-Cloy
While I don't agree with the Theory behind Left Behind, I must admit the theory is at least 100 years old. While still relatively new, it isn't as new as people make it sound.

IN Christ the Living King!
John ><>

[Colabomb]

While I don't agree with the Theory behind Left Behind, I must admit the theory is at least 100 years old. While still relatively new, it isn't as new as people make it sound.

IN Christ the Living King!
John ><>
Oh and by the way, those books are still excellent fiction.

[filosofer]

In my 50+ years of reading, the "Left Behind" series would not even make it into the top 500 in fiction genre or even based on quality of writing.

But that is MOBNSHO ;)

[KagomeShuko]

In my 50+ years of reading, the "Left Behind" series would not even make it into the top 500 in fiction genre or even based on quality of writing.

But that is MOBNSHO ;)


MOBNSHO? I'm guessing the end HO is "humble opinion"?

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[Jim47]

In my 50+ years of reading, the "Left Behind" series would not even make it into the top 500 in fiction genre or even based on quality of writing.

But that is MOBNSHO ;)


I think I figured out that "MOB"=my own biased? but what in the world does "NS" stand for :wave:

[filosofer]

My Own Biased Not So Humble Opinion

[Jim47]

121
My Own Biased Not So Humble Opinion


I'm going to have to write that one down on the back of my hand so' I can remember it. :thumbsup:

[Melethiel]

Oh and by the way, those books are still excellent fiction.
I can think of many more books that are better fiction than Left Behind. (We'll start with half the books in the public library...) :P

[KagomeShuko]

I can think of many more books that are better fiction than Left Behind. (We'll start with half the books in the public library...) :P

ONLY half???

I picked one of those up just to look at it one time when I was at Books-A-Million and besides the bad theology, it was just bad writing, too!

I was quite sad that at that time they were in the "religious" section along with the Bibles! That's not the case any longer, though.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[cenimo]

Just for grins, how would you guys feel after the Rapture?

[Jim47]

Just for grins, how would you guys feel after the Rapture?


Not sure I'm understanding the question? The believers go to Heaven, and we are promised all the good things there with no suffering. The un-believers will go to the furnace, they won't be feeling anything but pain and kicking themselves in the but for a zillion years.


I'm thinking that I will finally have a pretty neat body in place of this old worn out shell. Is that what you are refering to, or did I miss somephin? :D

[SPALATIN]

In my 50+ years of reading, the "Left Behind" series would not even make it into the top 500 in fiction genre or even based on quality of writing.

But that is MOBNSHO ;)


I am with you on this. I recently took all my Left Behind books off my own bookshelves to sell them to a "Half-priced" bookstore. They along with some Romance novels my wife was getting rid of would only have netted me $8.

They get a lot of these back and sell them again right away so the re-sell value is not even worth it. I would get more out of them if I used them to start a fire..

It is a shame that Tim LaHaye and Jerry Jenkins are making so much $$ on books that are not even scriptural.

[cenimo]

Jim47

No, I mean let's say that the rapture does happen. (And I'm not talking Left Behind books here, I've only read one). A disappearnce of millions of "Bible thumpers", and at the same time hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other Christians find themselves not taken up.
At that point, wouldn't the focus and priorities of what's left of churches change immensely? I think it's a safe bet that currently there are rapture believers in liturgical chuchres and preterists and a-mills in rapture believing churches. But if such a thing did occur, and I foubnd myself still here, and the pastor was still here, you can bet I'm going to be all over him in regards to "the whole rapture thing" that he shrugged off as nonsense and the no-longer-here "fundies" that everybody was ridiculing.
God can do anything, including taking his Chucrch (the people) out when HE sees it appropriate.

[filosofer]

But see, that is the problem. We are sustained by grace, whether we died today, or "get raptured" or the end occurs (obviously we believe that the "rapture", the return of Christ, and the end occur simultaneously). Thus, our focus is not on running and hiding, or going to a high hill or setting dates for the end. Yes, we wait with eager anticipation Christ's return. But we live by faith, at all times as we wait.

[LilLamb219]

But God won't contradict Himself. He said there will be a second coming, not a third one after a "rapture" as that term is believed by a lot of evangelicals. And what would the point of that so-called "rapture" be anyway? What would the left behind have to DO to get saved? How does that point to Jesus???

[filosofer]

They could always re-institute the sacrifices. ;)

[saami]

Jim47

No, I mean let's say that the rapture does happen. (And I'm not talking Left Behind books here, I've only read one). A disappearnce of millions of "Bible thumpers", and at the same time hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other Christians find themselves not taken up.
At that point, wouldn't the focus and priorities of what's left of churches change immensely? I think it's a safe bet that currently there are rapture believers in liturgical chuchres and preterists and a-mills in rapture believing churches. But if such a thing did occur, and I foubnd myself still here, and the pastor was still here, you can bet I'm going to be all over him in regards to "the whole rapture thing" that he shrugged off as nonsense and the no-longer-here "fundies" that everybody was ridiculing.
God can do anything, including taking his Chucrch (the people) out when HE sees it appropriate.

Wouldn't that senario suggest that it is not belief in Jesus Christ, but in some kind of rapture that is the criteria for salvation? Than the Lord he accepted me!

[Flipper]

Oh and by the way, those books are still excellent fiction.

Maybe at a 5th grade level.

[Protoevangel]

Maybe at a 5th grade level.
Don't knock under-grade fiction, Flipper! The "Series of Unfortunate Events", while written at a grade-school level, are great fun to read! They are probably more theologically pertinent than Left Behind too! ;)

[Flipper]

Don't knock under-grade fiction, Flipper! The "Series of Unfortunate Events", while written at a grade-school level, are great fun to read! They are probably more theologically pertinent than Left Behind too! ;)

Funny you mention those. I've been wanting to read them!!

[Jim47]

Jim47

No, I mean let's say that the rapture does happen. (And I'm not talking Left Behind books here, I've only read one). A disappearnce of millions of "Bible thumpers", and at the same time hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other Christians find themselves not taken up.
At that point, wouldn't the focus and priorities of what's left of churches change immensely? I think it's a safe bet that currently there are rapture believers in liturgical chuchres and preterists and a-mills in rapture believing churches. But if such a thing did occur, and I foubnd myself still here, and the pastor was still here, you can bet I'm going to be all over him in regards to "the whole rapture thing" that he shrugged off as nonsense and the no-longer-here "fundies" that everybody was ridiculing.
God can do anything, including taking his Chucrch (the people) out when HE sees it appropriate.

Sorry, but I somehow missed this question, although Filo addressed it well, I will add my 1/2 cent. :idea:

By what I am about to say, I mean no disrespect, but you pose this question in a manner that indicates you doubt what the Bible teaches, or at least your understanding of it.

The only answer I can offer is that God has already told us what would happen and He is not going to go back on His Word, of that we can be certain.

Perhaps your doubts or questions stem from watching to much of this stuff on TV or in the movies or from reading it? Anyone would start to doubt what is real after continual immersion of these fallacies. Satan uses these things as tools to cause us doubts just as he does many other things.

If I missed the point of your question, my apologies. :)

[Battie]

I was discussing the rapture concept with one of my professors last semester. I was saying that I never understood how the idea fit with Scripture. Besides the shaky interpretation it requires, it contradicts the warning of Christ that the Church must expect suffering. As Christians, we are supposed to be prepared for persecution. Why, then, would God pull us out suddenly, right during most important time for the church so that we could avoid a few years of suffering?

My professor made an excellent point: She wondered how much of a Western concept the Rapture might be. Millions of Christians around the world suffer torture and death daily in the name of Christ. They are going through their own tribulations even now. Why aren't they raptured now? Is it only because we cannot imagine such suffering that we think we are entitled to a way out of it?

[cenimo]

Jim47

No, not TV, not the movies, not the Left Behind books. Scripture. Thessalonians. Revelation. The church vanishes early in Revelation and then is not mentioned again until near the end of Revelation. Imagine that.

Some people refer to the rapture as The Blessed Hope. Why would Christians want to take that - hope- away from other Christians?

Just me, but I find it incredible that some people would witness the events that are going on in the world today and claim that "things have always been this way and there's nothing to worry about."

Then you have churches that are absolutely paranoid about any generation being the last generation because if you convince people of that the church won't be propgating itself.

You're right about Satan using deception to spread confusion but perhaps you might rethink where all that confusion is.

There will be scoffers in the last days indeed.

[SPALATIN]

Jim47

No, not TV, not the movies, not the Left Behind books. Scripture. Thessalonians. Revelation. The church vanishes early in Revelation and then is not mentioned again until near the end of Revelation. Imagine that.

Cenimo,

I have a problem with believing that just because the book of Revelation does not mention the church after Chapter 3 that it is not still involved in the rest of what is going on. Revelation is not a road map. Revelation was written as a comfort to show that Christians would be around in the end times, but that there is a happy ending.

Some people refer to the rapture as The Blessed Hope. Why would Christians want to take that - hope- away from other Christians?

Just me, but I find it incredible that some people would witness the events that are going on in the world today and claim that "things have always been this way and there's nothing to worry about."

Then you have churches that are absolutely paranoid about any generation being the last generation because if you convince people of that the church won't be propgating itself.

You're right about Satan using deception to spread confusion but perhaps you might rethink where all that confusion is.

There will be scoffers in the last days indeed.

The rest of your post I had no problem reading.

[Protoevangel]

Jim47

No, not TV, not the movies, not the Left Behind books. Scripture. Thessalonians. Revelation. The church vanishes early in Revelation and then is not mentioned again until near the end of Revelation. Imagine that.

Some people refer to the rapture as The Blessed Hope. Why would Christians want to take that - hope- away from other Christians?
The Blessed Hope is not that a few will be raptured away before the time of Tribulation, but that regardless of the trial and tribulation that we endure, Christ is with us and for us. We will spend eternity with Him.

"I skipped to the end of the book, and guess what... We win!!!"
- Unknown
Just me, but I find it incredible that some people would witness the events that are going on in the world today and claim that "things have always been this way and there's nothing to worry about."
What exactly do we have to "worry" about? If He is for us, then who can be against us? They hated my Lord and God before they hated me. He has already overcome the world.

Then you have churches that are absolutely paranoid about any generation being the last generation because if you convince people of that the church won't be propgating itself.
I have my doubts that those you describe here are truly "the church", anyway. Their focus is not on Christ, but in "preparing" themselves (i.e. works, self-justification).

You're right about Satan using deception to spread confusion but perhaps you might rethink where all that confusion is.

There will be scoffers in the last days indeed.
You are as subtle as a serpent, cenimo. ;)


On the Last Day all believers, alive and "asleep", will be "raptured" into the Lord's glorious presence to live together forever. This is the Blessed Hope that all who trust in Christ alone have.

[Jim47]

Jim47

No, not TV, not the movies, not the Left Behind books. Scripture. Thessalonians. Revelation. The church vanishes early in Revelation and then is not mentioned again until near the end of Revelation. Imagine that.

Some people refer to the rapture as The Blessed Hope. Why would Christians want to take that - hope- away from other Christians?

Just me, but I find it incredible that some people would witness the events that are going on in the world today and claim that "things have always been this way and there's nothing to worry about."

Then you have churches that are absolutely paranoid about any generation being the last generation because if you convince people of that the church won't be propgating itself.

You're right about Satan using deception to spread confusion but perhaps you might rethink where all that confusion is.

There will be scoffers in the last days indeed.

Hi cenimo

I'm getting the feeling that you are worried about what will happen when Jesus returns, am I correct?

If we trust in God and in His Word and in Jesus as Our Savior, we do not have anything to worry about. I'm just going to take a wild guess that the book of Revalation is the least read book amongst Lutherans, Why? Because we don't fear Jesus return, we welcome it and look forward to it, for then we know that we will be with Him.

as for "
Some people refer to the rapture as The Blessed Hope. Why would Christians want to take that - hope- away from other Christians? "

Lutherans in no way take away the hope of the rapture, we just believe it will occur at Jesus second coming when He comes to take us with Him. We are certain of this because we trust what God has told us in His Word ( <I know this repeating myself, but I wanted to make sure you understood)

Now! How can we help you to have this certainity? :groupray:

[knee-v]

Another good book which is a critique of the Left Behind theology is "End Times Fiction", by Gary DeMar. An excellent read.

[knee-v]

Jim47

The church vanishes early in Revelation and then is not mentioned again until near the end of Revelation. Imagine that.



Umm . . . not so much.

Christ is addressing individual churches in the first several chapters. Specific local congregations. NOT the church as a whole. After that, the focus is on a much broader level. It is not the seven individual local congregations from the first few chapters. It is God's dealings with the WHOLE church. All the believers. And that is how they are addressed. As the believers, or "saints", which is what the church is made of. So to say that the Church "vanishes" is just flat wrong. The WORD Church vanishes, but what the church is does not vanish. The body of Christ is still on earth for the rest of the book. And nowhere in Revelation does it mention the Church "vanishing", or "being caught up", or anything of that nature. That is pure speculation, based on nothing in the text. The church is present for the entire book. If not, what are all those saints doing on earth?

[cenimo]

Jim47

Both sides of the rapture issue can present arguments to justify their view, which is only their view. No one has any proof one way or the other. The preterists tell us all prophecy has benn fulfilled, but interestingly, they have to adjust the date (90-96 AD) that most sources say Revelation was written. Otherwise they are telling us that Revelation is prophecy telling us what happened twenty to twenty-six years beforehand. Same as me posting a "prediction" of who is going to win the 1984 World Series.

My point in this thread is that for those Christians in non-rapture believeing churches to have been misled if there is a rapture would be a very sad thing.
Many will answer that by saying, "Well, I'm a Christian so if this rapture thing happens I'll be going then." Maybe, maybe not, we don't know (some preachers insist only those looking for it will be taken up.)
the thing those Christians don't see when they say that is they are in essence implying belief in a rapture when they say that.

And in your post you cenveniently deny any thousand year reign. Yeah, I know, symbology - but how odd that symbology isn't a constant and only applies when people want it to.

You believe in the parting of the sea?

Of course.

Virgin birth?

Of course

Resurrection?

Of course.

Rapture?

Oh c'mon.


Dan Head
Telling anyone that doesn't agree with your theology is "as subtle as a serpent" is just a wee bit strong.

knee-v
And nowhere in Revelation does it mention the Church "vanishing", or "being caught up", or anything of that nature. That is pure speculation, based on nothing in the text.

It's all pure speculation, a-mill, post-mill, pre-mill, preterism, etc...But an awful lot of folks think their way is the way and that's all there is to it.

Everyone:
The thread is The Rapture Exposed. My question is to all of you how would you react of the rapture did happen and for whatever reason you didn't go? You think all these churches with "there ain't no rapture" doctrine would have any credibility at that point?

God can do anything, which includes taking His church out if he sees fit.

Like I said, just my $.02.

[Protoevangel]

Rapture?

Oh c'mon.
Another mischaracterization.

Dan Head
Telling anyone that doesn't agree with your theology is "as subtel as a serpent" is just a wee bit strong.
More craftiness, cenimo?

It was not your theology, but your own subtle attack that my comment was addrressed to. But then again, I think you already knew that...

You're right about Satan using deception to spread confusion but perhaps you (who?) might rethink where all that confusion is.

There will be scoffers in the last days indeed.

[knee-v]

Like any other lie, if enough people say it enough times, more people begin to believe it's true. Thus it spreads further and further. It becomes so engrained into people's minds that it becomes part of their reality and way of seeing things. But the fact of the matter is that scripture does not teach such a thing. The only way to believe in a pre-trib rapture is to already believe it, and then read scripture with that frame of mind. Otherwise, that doctrine does not exist in scripture.

[knee-v]

God can do anything, which includes taking His church out if he sees fit.



Ok.

God can invert a dime without breaking it and then set it on fire and put it inside a bath tub full of water and the fire not go out, then pull the plug on the tub and have jello shoot out of the drain and stick to the wall in the shape of the American flag.

God can turn a tree upside down and cause fairies to dance on the roots, while the fairies use the force to make elephants swim in circles around the up-side-down tree.

God can do ANYTHING He wants. But when it comes to the way things will pan out, it's not a matter of what God CAN do. It's what He WILL do. God can do either of the two things I mentioned. But those are not prophetic realities from scripture. And neither is the pre-trib rapture.

[Protoevangel]

And in your post you cenveniently deny any thousand year reign. Yeah, I know, symbology - but how odd that symbology isn't a constant and only applies when people want it to.
The book of Revelation is apocalyptic literature. Apocalyptic literature uses numbers, creatures, etc. to provide messages to believers who are able to understand the meaning behind the cryptic stories and symbols. Most of the rest of the Bible, is NOT apocalyptic literature. There is historical literature, poetry, and parables, etc. There is nothing in the book of Genesis, for instance, that suggests that we take what is written as anything other than literal history of how God created the world. Historically, Lutherans have read the Bible literally - according to the literary form. That is what we do with the book of Revelation. We read it according to it's literary form. I can point you to a number of good resources to learn about apocalyptic literature, if you would like.

[Protoevangel]

knee-v,

Love your signature!!! :thumbsup:

[knee-v]

Hey, what a coincidence! So do I.

[Colabomb]

Hey, what a coincidence! So do I.
I don't know binary, but I know enough to get the joke!

[cenimo]

DanHead
There is nothing in the book of Genesis, for instance, that suggests that we take what is written as anything other than literal history of how God created the world.

See what I mean. Symbolism when we want it to be. The pre-trib rapture is bogus man, but a talking snake, well, it's literal when I say it's literal!...
or was it a snake? God wouldn't say, "From now on you will crawl on your belly", unless until that moment it wasn't crawling on its belly...but that's another thread.

[Protoevangel]

DanHead


See what I mean. Symbolism when we want it to be. The pre-trib rapture is bogus man, but a talking snake, well, it's literal when I say it's literal!...
or was it a snake? God wouldn't say, "From now on you will crawl on your belly", unless until that moment it wasn't crawling on its belly...but that's another thread.


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No, it's just a basic understanding of the principles of hermeneutics. Historical literature is read as historic literature, even if the miraculous or unexpected happens. In the same manner, apocalyptic literature is understood in it's own context. It is really not that amazingly complicated, nor is it beyond your ability to learn, I am sure. What it is, is comprehensive and consistent.

One book I would suggest is called “Principles of Biblical interpretation: Sacred hermeneutics (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/offer-listing/B0007EICJA/ref=olp_tab_used/102-5853961-6352110?%5Fencoding=UTF8&condition=used)”. You can find it used for under $10.00 on Amazon.com. It is a little deep, being a seminary textbook, but it is better than most others I have read.

If you are interested in reading online, there are a few useful resources, such as:

Biblical Hermeneutics (http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/L/LillegardHermeneutics/LillegardHermeneutics.htm)
What Do We Mean When We Say 'So Says the Word of God'? (http://www.wls.wels.net/library/Essays/Authors/b/BlumeWord/BlumeWord.htm)
Seven Theses on Reformation Hermeneutics (http://old.www.lcms.org/ctcr/docs/pdf/theses.pdf)

Hope this helps.

[knee-v]

Denying a pre-trib rapture is not a matter of picking and choosing when we want to take things literally and figuratively. If something isn't there, it isn't there. It's not a matter of reading a passage that says "there's gonna be a pre-trib rapture", and dismissing it as "symbolic", or "figurative". It's a matter of NOT seeing passages that teach the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture at all. So the arguement that "you accept the virgin birth as literal, so why can't you accept the pre-trib rapture as literal?" doesn't work. That's apples and oranges . . . or apples and . . . neutrinos.

[cenimo]

DanHead

My wife and I are "friends of" a local ELCA church. Interesting you keep mentioning
Hermeneutics because the pastor of this church was explaining how the Lutherans (at least ELCA) were rethinking their view on Hermeneutics because of the topic that can not be mentioned in these threads and a recent conference in that regard.
You won't convince me and I won't convince you. I'll just leave you with the thought that it would be quite interesting if the rapture occurs on a Sunday morning.

:)

[Protoevangel]

DanHead

My wife and I are "friends of" a local ELCA church. Interesting you keep mentioning
Hermeneutics because the pastor of this church was explaining how the Lutherans (at least ELCA) were rethinking their view on Hermeneutics because of the topic that can not be mentioned in these threads and a recent conference in that regard.
Yes, the ELCA is struggling with it's identity right now.


You won't convince me and I won't convince you. I'll just leave you with the thought that it would be quite interesting if the rapture occurs on a Sunday morning.

:)
I have no doubt that the Last Day (including the rapture) may very well be a Sunday.