Can you fall from being saved?

[WhyAjani]

Let's take this situation for an example...

Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.

He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.

So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?

"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."

What will happen?

[Entertaining_Angels]

My view on this tends to be a bit different from some on this forum. I personally believed that once you are truly saved, that is it, you are saved. I have a family member who was 'saved' in a word of faith church. She spoke in tongues, got herself slain in the ol' Spirit when she could, so on and so forth. She is now living with her boyfriend, doesn't go to church anymore and 'religion' is no longer a part of her life. This perplexes some in my family. I just don't feel she ever became saved in the first place. I think she had a pseudo-salvation and never really understood true salvation and a true relationship with God. Sure, she lived a 'good' life by her definition, went to church, had all these signs and gifts from 'god' and she would have adamently told you then she was saved. That was her 'salvation' and not from God.

Having been hijacked into false beliefs and teachings, I think this is very common. If you are truly walking with God, you won't desert Him and He certainly will not desert you.

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

God bless.

[WhyAjani]

Word that's what I was thinking and you just really clearified it all.. thanks alot sister.

[Jim Woodell]

Let's take this situation for an example...

Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.

He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.

So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?

"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."

What will happen?

I submit to you the following scriptures to consider:
1. Luke 15 "Lost Sheep" "Lost Coin" "Lost Boy" "Older Brother" Considering the "lost sheep" Jesus said, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep." Then there is a lot of "rejoicing." Why??

2. James 5:19 This verse addresses "brothers." We are told if he "wanders from the truth, and is brought back, a soul has been saved from death.

3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 Here are some who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through Jesus Christ, but are again entangled therein." Because they are overcome "they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

Scripture does teach that a person can be saved and so sin as to lose their soul. God says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test." (2 Cor. 13:5)

[HolyFire X]

I can't give a personal opinion from my experiences. The Bible does say that "I will never leave you nor forsake you." but I don't know if you can leave Him.

I'll leave this answer in the hands of someone else.

[Jim Woodell]

I can't give a personal opinion from my experiences. The Bible does say that "I will never leave you nor forsake you." but I don't know if you can leave Him.

I'll leave this answer in the hands of someone else.

The lost sheep of Luke 15:1ff "wandered off." God does not forsake us, but we can forsake him.

[holo]

For me, it boils down to being a child of God, born again as we call it.
If there's a way to remove oneself from salvation, I guess it must be through actually know who Jesus is, and willingly reject his offer of salvation.

There was a time in my life when I rejected my father, but I was still his flesh and blood. I couldn't somehow fail or sin so badly as to become somebody else's son.
It's a good thing salvation doesn't depend on my works or intellect (or on me in general).

[Asaph]

For me, it boils down to being a child of God, born again as we call it.
If there's a way to remove oneself from salvation, I guess it must be through actually know who Jesus is, and willingly reject his offer of salvation.

There was a time in my life when I rejected my father, but I was still his flesh and blood. I couldn't somehow fail or sin so badly as to become somebody else's son.
It's a good thing salvation doesn't depend on my works or intellect (or on me in general).

If a person has saved themselves, then and only then, they are entirely free to unsave themselves.

Which is one and the same thing isn't it?

Asaph

[Stinker]

I submit to you the following scriptures to consider:
1. Luke 15 "Lost Sheep" "Lost Coin" "Lost Boy" "Older Brother" Considering the "lost sheep" Jesus said, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep." Then there is a lot of "rejoicing." Why??

2. James 5:19 This verse addresses "brothers." We are told if he "wanders from the truth, and is brought back, a soul has been saved from death.

3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 Here are some who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through Jesus Christ, but are again entangled therein." Because they are overcome "they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

Scripture does teach that a person can be saved and so sin as to lose their soul. God says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test." (2 Cor. 13:5)

Upon first glance James 5:19-20 would appear to be saying that a Christian that happens to 'stray' from the truth will result in the death of his/her soul. Further study reveals that James is using a verse from the Old Testament as emphasis. James is referring to a non-Christian being 'turned' to the truth will result in the saving of their soul from death. This is to encourage Christians not to stray and if they should, that it is important for them to be brought back.

2Pet.2 is clearly describing unconverted teachers.....'A dog returns to it's own vomit' and 'A sow after being washed, returns to wallowing in the mire.' (2Pet.2:22)

[WesWoodell]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
(NIV)


1 Corinthians 10:12
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)


1 Timothy 3:6
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
(NIV)


Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
(NIV)

[Jim Woodell]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
(NIV)


1 Corinthians 10:12
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)


1 Timothy 3:6
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
(NIV)


Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
(NIV)



Good! :wave:

[abednego]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
(NIV)


1 Corinthians 10:12
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)


1 Timothy 3:6
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
(NIV)


Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
(NIV)




Very Good Sir I agree with you. I would have used the KJV to prove that point but other than that you are right! The bible says that anyman taking hold of the Gospel plow and looking back is unfit for the kingdom of God!

[Stinker]

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
(NIV)


1 Corinthians 10:12
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
(NIV)


1 Timothy 3:6
6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil.
(NIV)


Hebrews 4:11
11 Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience.
(NIV)



When one quotes (Heb.6:4-6) as a 'proof-text' that a saved person can be lost, they always fail to see that it back-fires on them because it says that; 'if they fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.'
I have yet to hear of anyone who supports the doctrine of Insecurity (as I once did) maintain that after one came to know the Lord, then backslide, that they could never again repent and come back to the Lord.

I do not think that (1Cor.10:12) is mocking us by falsely saying; "Let him that thinks he is in a saved state right now take heed lest he suddenly die and wind up in hell."

On (1Tim.3:6) it is saying that a new convert should not be given so much authority because he could become prideful and be tempted to persuade church members to follow him instead of the Lord.....same stumbling block that Lucifer tripped over when he persuaded 1/3 of the angels to follow him.

On (Heb.4:11) it is not describing a believing people. It describes the ancient Israelites as an unbelieving people. The reason that they consistently disobeyed (the Hebrew letter tells us) is because of unbelief.

[Jim Woodell]

[QUOTE=Stinker]When one quotes (Heb.6:4-6) as a 'proof-text' that a saved person can be lost, they always fail to see that it back-fires on them because it says that; 'if they fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.

This is not a "back-fire" it is serious business. God is clear in this passage, don't flirt with sin!! A person can reach a place in their lifes where they cannot be brought back to repentance, even though they were at one time in a saved relationship with Jesus.


I have yet to hear of anyone who supports the doctrine of Insecurity (as I once did) maintain that after one came to know the Lord, then backslide, that they could never again repent and come back to the Lord.

God will be the judge of those that are lost. Calling this a "doctrine of Insecurity" is to prejudice the reality of what God is saying. Check out Demas and his departure from God. A person who is saved can so turn their back upon God that they will be eternally lost, and can reach a state in this present life where their heart is so hard that they cannot be brought to repentance. I am at least one person who has taught "they could never again repent and come back to the Lord." Again, turning your back on God is serious business!

Some will say that a person who becomes a Christian and then "backslides" was never a Christian to start with. I also know some who think "once saved, always saved" that are very carnal.


I do not think that (1Cor.10:12) is mocking us by falsely saying; "Let him that thinks he is in a saved state right now take heed lest he suddenly die and wind up in hell."

It seems to me that you are dismissing this passage as if it is trivial. All of us had best take the Word of God serious.

On (1Tim.3:6) it is saying that a new convert should not be given so much authority because he could become prideful and be tempted to persuade church members to follow him instead of the Lord.....same stumbling block that Lucifer tripped over when he persuaded 1/3 of the angels to follow him.

What will happen to those that follow man instead of Christ. Isn't that what, at least part of, the seven woes of Matt. 25 was about. Where will Lucifer end up, in heaven or hell. Your example here proves the point you were trying to disprove. Notice that it is a "new convert" (a Christian) who can fall into this trap you illustrate.


On (Heb.4:11) it is not describing a believing people. It describes the ancient Israelites as an unbelieving people. The reason that they consistently disobeyed (the Hebrew letter tells us) is because of unbelief.


BUT his point is that we (Christians) can have "an evil heart of unbelief and so depart from God." He does use the Israelites to demonstrate this for us.

[aggie03]

It may also be hopeful to note that in Hebrews when it talks about someone who has fallen away it is referring to someone who has turned their back completely on God and the sacrifice that the Christ made on the cross. I do not believe this is referring necessarily to someone who is having "attendance problems" or some other issue that would typically be described as "backsliding". Hewbrews 6, as noted already, deals with a very serious, very sad condition.

[Mr.Peanut]

i believe in once saved always saved.
:preach:

[RP1000]

The lost sheep of Luke 15:1ff "wandered off." God does not forsake us, but we can forsake him.

hhmmm Thats good

remember Jesus said many times .... "He who endures to the end will be saved"

[Jim Woodell]

i believe in once saved always saved.
:preach:

What "I believe" does not necessairly make it so. Why did God tell us to "study?" (2 Tim. 2:15) He also mentions "rightly dividing the word of truth." Jesus said, "If you continue in my word you are my disciples in deed and you will know the truth and the truth will make you free." (John 8:31-32).

The Bible does not teach "once saved always saved," so what is your source for believing this??

[Stinker]

QUOTE=Stinker]When one quotes (Heb.6:4-6) as a 'proof-text' that a saved person can be lost, they always fail to see that it back-fires on them because it says that; 'if they fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not a "back-fire" it is serious business. God is clear in this passage, don't flirt with sin!! A person can reach a place in their lifes where they cannot be brought back to repentance, even though they were at one time in a saved relationship with Jesus. [Jim Woodell post #14]


"A person can 'reach a place' in their life where they cannot be brought 'back' to repentance."

Now the 'place' that the people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 had 'reached' is not described, nor the subject. What is described, and the focus of the subject, is their abandonment of what they had experienced when they were practicing Christians......

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

[Imana]

My view on this tends to be a bit different from some on this forum. I personally believed that once you are truly saved, that is it, you are saved. I have a family member who was 'saved' in a word of faith church. She spoke in tongues, got herself slain in the ol' Spirit when she could, so on and so forth. She is now living with her boyfriend, doesn't go to church anymore and 'religion' is no longer a part of her life. This perplexes some in my family. I just don't feel she ever became saved in the first place. I think she had a pseudo-salvation and never really understood true salvation and a true relationship with God. Sure, she lived a 'good' life by her definition, went to church, had all these signs and gifts from 'god' and she would have adamently told you then she was saved. That was her 'salvation' and not from God.

Having been hijacked into false beliefs and teachings, I think this is very common. If you are truly walking with God, you won't desert Him and He certainly will not desert you.

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

God bless.

Tell it! :amen:

[aggie03]

Can you find any examples in the New Testament where someone "appears" to be saved, but then really wasn't? That's not the way that Bible talks about the subject. The Bible says there are people who were saved and then decided to walk away from the Lord.

[WesWoodell]

Can you find any examples in the New Testament where someone "appears" to be saved, but then really wasn't? That's not the way that Bible talks about the subject. The Bible says there are people who were saved and then decided to walk away from the Lord.


The story of Simon the Sorcerer comes to mind. It appears that he was saved (along with the rest of the crowd around him), but then he strayed.

[holo]

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.If you really think that, be careful to decide that the girl in question has fallen from salvation (don't know how though) or indeed that she was never saved in the first place.

I don't think you can use her living with her boyfriend etc anymore than her church-going, to decide whether or not she's saved.

[WesWoodell]

I don't think any of us can decide if anyone is saved or not. That's not up to us, and that knowledge isn't granted to us.

[aggie03]

The story of Simon the Sorcerer comes to mind. It appears that he was saved (along with the rest of the crowd around him), but then he strayed.

Acts 8:12-13 ASV

But when they believed Philip preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (13) And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

I've pasted the text from the beginning of the example you mentioned. Simon was saved. If he became "unsaved" some time later it was because he fell from grace, not because he was never saved.

[aggie03]

I don't think any of us can decide if anyone is saved or not. That's not up to us, and that knowledge isn't granted to us.

Can you know that you are saved? If you can know that you are saved, then there is some basis on which judgment can be made as to whether or not someone else is.

I will agree that there are internal things that cannot really be judged from human perspectives, but God also said that if the inside of the man is right, then the outside of the man will do the things that God asks. If one does not do the things that God asks, what is the conclusion that can be drawn?

Can I pass eternal judgment on someone's soul? Absolutely not. Can I have a good idea of where someone will end up spending eternity? Yes. Does this mean that my limited judgment is always correct? No.

Neither does this mean that I should stop making judgments. It is explicitly clear in the Scriptures that God wants me to help other people get to heaven. One of the ways that I can help do that is by helping other people live lives that are pleasing to God -- this means pointing out things that need to change sometimes.

I suppose the bottom line is that Jesus said we will all be judged by the word of God, so if our lives don't conform to it (or we see others whose lives don't) then there are some changes that need to take place.

[Imana]

I don't think any of us can decide if anyone is saved or not. That's not up to us, and that knowledge isn't granted to us.

Wes.......you're right.

Its not in our place to determine whether someone is saved or not. Besides, if we just relied on what our eyes see on the outside, then I guess we all would be considered as not saved either. ;) You feel what I'm sayin?

[WesWoodell]

Yes I do.

And as Christians, we should know in our hearts that we are saved.

1 John 5:13
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
(NIV)

I also agree with you, Aggie. We know what the Bible says, and we should warn others when they are stepping away from the teachings of God. But we should never pass judgement on them as to where they'll spend eternity.

For all we know Judas will join us in heaven ...

[WesWoodell]

By the way - I believe there are two different words for "judge" in the Bible. One refers to judging behavior or judging right from wrong, and another refers to judging as God will judge us on Judgement Day (whether we will go to heaven or hell).

We are commanded to judge in the first way, and we are commanded not to judge the second way.

[Theophorus]

My view on this tends to be a bit different from some on this forum. I personally believed that once you are truly saved, that is it, you are saved. I have a family member who was 'saved' in a word of faith church. She spoke in tongues, got herself slain in the ol' Spirit when she could, so on and so forth. She is now living with her boyfriend, doesn't go to church anymore and 'religion' is no longer a part of her life. This perplexes some in my family. I just don't feel she ever became saved in the first place. I think she had a pseudo-salvation and never really understood true salvation and a true relationship with God. Sure, she lived a 'good' life by her definition, went to church, had all these signs and gifts from 'god' and she would have adamently told you then she was saved. That was her 'salvation' and not from God.

Having been hijacked into false beliefs and teachings, I think this is very common. If you are truly walking with God, you won't desert Him and He certainly will not desert you.

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

God bless.

Let's think about this a second. Many people will fall in love with someone, maybe even get married. They often share something in common with that person. It is an intense experience, often many times more intense than a persons "relationship" with God, yet many times selfishness endures within the heart, and they fall apart.

If we are honest with ourselves, we know that we can choose to espouse ourselves to whom we please. The promise of Christ is that we can become that "chicken" even though our nature is contrary to it. That by grace we become what we are not.

[Jim Woodell]

QUOTE=Stinker]When one quotes (Heb.6:4-6) as a 'proof-text' that a saved person can be lost, they always fail to see that it back-fires on them because it says that; 'if they fall away, it is impossible for them to be brought back to repentance.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is not a "back-fire" it is serious business. God is clear in this passage, don't flirt with sin!! A person can reach a place in their lifes where they cannot be brought back to repentance, even though they were at one time in a saved relationship with Jesus. [Jim Woodell post #14]


"A person can 'reach a place' in their life where they cannot be brought 'back' to repentance."

Now the 'place' that the people described in Hebrews 6:4-6 had 'reached' is not described, nor the subject. What is described, and the focus of the subject, is their abandonment of what they had experienced when they were practicing Christians......

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.


:amen:

[soldout]

If you really think that, be careful to decide that the girl in question has fallen from salvation (don't know how though) or indeed that she was never saved in the first place.

I don't think you can use her living with her boyfriend etc anymore than her church-going, to decide whether or not she's saved.

If I remember my bible study correctly, isn't it God Himself who decides who is saved and who is not?

Didn't Jesus Himself have a "thing" for loving whores into the Kingdom?

If I remember right, it kind of ticked off the "good" people then too. :scratch:

[Stinker]

The story of Simon the Sorcerer comes to mind. It appears that he was saved (along with the rest of the crowd around him), but then he strayed.


Acts 8:12-13 ASV

But when they believed Philip preaching good tidings concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (13) And Simon also himself believed: and being baptized, he continued with Philip; and beholding signs and great miracles wrought, he was amazed.

I've pasted the text from the beginning of the example you mentioned. Simon was saved. If he became "unsaved" some time later it was because he fell from grace, not because he was never saved.

There are 2 parts necessary for New Testament faith or belief.
These are of the intellect and of the will. We have examples of people having just one of either of these, and of course the people fail the Lord. Simon the sorcerer, by the words of his mouth, reveals that he was never a true believer. Here are some other people that lacked one of the components of New Testament belief as well;

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (Jn.12:42-43)

[WesWoodell]

There's a big difference between faith and belief in my book. I believe faith is belief with legs. Action accompanies faith.

[InnerPhyre]

If salt loses its taste, it is cast out and trampled. If a branch ceases to bear fruit, it is pruned.

[WesWoodell]

Simon the sorcerer, by the words of his mouth, reveals that he was never a true believer. Here are some other people that lacked one of the components of New Testament belief as well;

Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God. (Jn.12:42-43)


I don't know - it says that they believed. It seems that these men lacked faith rather than belief. Once again, it is my understanding that faith and belief are two different things.

[Apologetic]

I have to ask:

How can you opinionize such an important question?

Now - I have much to say about "being slain in the spirit" as well, but I'm going to stick with this subject here and maybe I'll start a new thread on the "slain in the spirit"-thing.

What did the apostles teach on this subject? The Bible has the answer to this, and it's pretty clear.

I cannot find any proof in the Bible that says once we are saved, we can do whatever we like, even stop believing in Christ, and still go to heaven when we die. However, I can find heaps of warnings against falling away from the faith.

First, there is the Bible proof from the Gospels, showing that the "once saved-always saved"-doctrine is a misconception and is biblically wrong:

Proof_from_the_Gospels (http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-Gospels.html)

Then there are the letters:

Proof_from_2ndThess (http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-Rom-2Thes.html)

Proof_1stTim_to_James (http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-1Tim-James.html)

Proof_from_1stPeter_to_Revelation (http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-1Peter-Rev.html)

Corrections_and_misconceptions_in_the_OSAS (http://www.geocities.com/1christlover/OSAS-Corrections.html)

Let it be known that in referring to this article, I do not necessarily agree with the author on all subjects.

[Stinker]

I cannot find any proof in the Bible that says once we are saved, we can do whatever we like, even stop believing in Christ, and still go to heaven when we die. However, I can find heaps of warnings against falling away from the faith. [Apologetic post #37]


Anyone who thinks that a person who has been truly born again can resume the practice of sin, does not accurately understand what being born again means.

When a person has been truly born again (Jn.3:7-9) they are connected to the Supernatural. That Supernatural will never let Satan steal that person's soul away.

The confusion comes when people do not allow for the tares (weeds that resemble wheat) that Jesus said would be in the church. These are the one's that give the truly saved a bad name.

[Apologetic]

Then what do you make of this passage:

2Pet 2: 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (notice that the Bible says they really knew Him) and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Seriously. How do OSAS twist this Scripture passage?

Don't let men's teachings interpret Scripture for you. Let Scripture interpret itself.

[Lynn73]

Charles Stanley has an excellent book out entitled Eternal Security, can you be sure? He used to believe salvation could be lost but has changed his stance on that.

No, I don't believe a person who is truly saved and been sealed by the Spirit can ever be lost. Backslide, yes. Get out of fellowship, yes. Fall into greivous sin, yes. Be lost again, no. There's too much biblical evidence to the contrary. A Christians behavior can be such that someone watching might no know the difference between the Christian and the lost..but God knows those that are truly His.

[Lynn73]

Then what do you make of this passage:

2Pet 2: 20If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (notice that the Bible says they really knew Him) and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22Of them the proverbs are true: "A dog returns to its vomit,"[f]and, "A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Seriously. How do OSAS twist this Scripture passage?

Don't let men's teachings interpret Scripture for you. Let Scripture interpret itself.

Notice the sow is still a sow and the dog is still a dog. They aren't Christ's sheep and never have been. They were in contact with Christ and knew the way of righteousness. But they turned away, they were never saved.

[soldout]

Which species of butterflies turn themselves back into catapillars before they die?


Funny. I can't think of even one.

[Jim Woodell]

Notice the sow is still a sow and the dog is still a dog. They aren't Christ's sheep and never have been. They were in contact with Christ and knew the way of righteousness. But they turned away, they were never saved.

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and , 'a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Peter is not talking about "dogs" and "hogs" in this text. He is talking about people that "escaped" "corruption" by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." The people (Christians) are "entangled" in the world again. IF they are "overcome" they are worse off than not to have known the gospel of Christ. They are lost and need to be saved (James 5:19-20;Gal. 6:1-2) The dog and the sow are used to illustrate the nature of those folks.

Check out the parable of the sower: Luke 8:11-15. The seed that did not bear fruit sprung up, it just didn't last. "They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

To say that people who fall away were never saved is a "cop out."

[Godzchild]

Why are there scriptures that contradict each other?

On one hand you have the scriptures that so "No man can pluck them out of my father's hand" and "Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling...." etc etc (there are a lot) then you have scripture like the above that totally contradict the other scriptures. Some of these scriptures were spoken by Jesus himself and yet there are scriptures that contradict what he says.

[Stinker]

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and , 'a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Peter is not talking about "dogs" and "hogs" in this text. He is talking about people that "escaped" "corruption" by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." The people (Christians) are "entangled" in the world again. IF they are "overcome" they are worse off than not to have known the gospel of Christ. They are lost and need to be saved (James 5:19-20;Gal. 6:1-2) The dog and the sow are used to illustrate the nature of those folks.

Check out the parable of the sower: Luke 8:11-15. The seed that did not bear fruit sprung up, it just didn't last. "They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

To say that people who fall away were never saved is a "cop out."

On the word 'escaped' from (2Pet.2:20) it is important to know that this Koine Greek word is only used here in 2Pet.2:18,20 and 2Pet.1:4
It does not have the same meaning as 'escape' in other New Testament passages. As it is used in 2Pet.2 it means that even an infidel can for a while 'escape' from the defilements of the world that he and his ilk have produced, by becoming a church member. Here is what the Koine Greek word means in 2Pet.2..............(apopheugo) word #668 in Strong's Exaustive Concordance and Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the N.T. Thayer's says of this word: to flee from, escape.

Notice that it does not mean (escape to safety). In the Koine Greek New Testament where a different Greek word is used, it does mean escape to safety. (Acts 27:44) word #1295 "And the rest, some on boards, and some on broken pieces of the ship. And so it came to pass, that they all escaped all safe to land."

[Lynn73]

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. Of them the proverbs are true: 'A dog returns to its vomit,' and , 'a sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud."

Peter is not talking about "dogs" and "hogs" in this text. He is talking about people that "escaped" "corruption" by "knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ." The people (Christians) are "entangled" in the world again. IF they are "overcome" they are worse off than not to have known the gospel of Christ. They are lost and need to be saved (James 5:19-20;Gal. 6:1-2) The dog and the sow are used to illustrate the nature of those folks.

Check out the parable of the sower: Luke 8:11-15. The seed that did not bear fruit sprung up, it just didn't last. "They believe for awhile, but in the time of testing they fall away."

To say that people who fall away were never saved is a "cop out."

Difference of opinion. I choose to believe these are not truly saved people. Is God contradicting Himself? The Bible says no one can snatch us out of His hand and that Christ will lose nothing that belongs to Him. There are too many Scriptures that say that you can't lose salvation so unless God is contradicting Himself, one side is misinterpeting the Scripture. And each side probably thinks it's the other side so round and round we go and get nowhere.

If the dog is still a dog and the sow still a sow what is shows is that their nature was never changed. They didn't experience the new birth nor receive the new nature.

[WesWoodell]

I don't think God is contradicting Himself at all - I believe other people are contradicting God.

[ronmathison]

Whoever eats this bread will live forever.

[ronmathison]

This was stated in reference to 2 Peter 2:20-22. "If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command


The above means people who are not Christians, who
know of the way to God, and then reject it. I feel that
this is mirrored in scripture, where we see teachers, who
for greed, willfully teach lies, and willfully send people to hell.

Those people, will never accept Christ. Those people will also
go to a worse place in hell than the average Joe. This is because of how evil
their choice is.

True Christians are indeed saved forever.

[GTchick12]

If you are truly saved, you will not reject Christ. Why would someone who no longer wanted a part of Christ even want to go to heaven?

[Jim Woodell]

Why are there scriptures that contradict each other?

On one hand you have the scriptures that so "No man can pluck them out of my father's hand" and "Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling...." etc etc (there are a lot) then you have scripture like the above that totally contradict the other scriptures. Some of these scriptures were spoken by Jesus himself and yet there are scriptures that contradict what he says.

Note that the Father/Shepherd did not cause the "lost sheep" (Luke 15) to be lost, nor did he invite the "prodigal son" to leave home. It was through their carelessness or choice that they left security and went into lostness.

There is no contradiction here. "No man can pluck them out of my Father's hand...", but every Christian has the choice of staying or leaving (John 6:66-69). You can choose to jump out of the Father's hand. Unfortunately many have (Matt. 7:13-14).

[Godzchild]

Note that the Father/Shepherd did not cause the "lost sheep" (Luke 15) to be lost, nor did he invite the "prodigal son" to leave home. It was through their carelessness or choice that they left security and went into lostness.

There is no contradiction here. "No man can pluck them out of my Father's hand...", but every Christian has the choice of staying or leaving (John 6:66-69). You can choose to jump out of the Father's hand. Unfortunately many have (Matt. 7:13-14).

But see these things are contradictory. It says that NO MAN can pluck them out of my father's hand and I feel that means 'us' as well since we are 'man' right? Also if it says that he will keep us from falling then the prodigal son and the 'sheep' that walk away do NOT fall away but they do come back though. what makes them come back? What makes a Christian who walks away come back?

[James1979]

I agree with the rest that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit, the seal can never be broken because God has his promises and God keeps his promises. God will not contradict himself as some people say thus saith the Lord and the Lord has not said it.

If people had loss their salvation, Christ would had endure extra payment for these dear indiviuals for nothing because supposely they were saved but falled from grace and now are eternally condemned. That would mean these people had frustrated God's salvation plan.

It's all contrary and God says it himself in the bible that men are liars and let God be true. Once saved, always saved.

[Apologetic]

I agree with the rest that once a person is sealed by the Holy Spirit, the seal can never be broken because God has his promises and God keeps his promises. God will not contradict himself as some people say thus saith the Lord and the Lord has not said it.

If people had loss their salvation, Christ would had endure extra payment for these dear indiviuals for nothing because supposely they were saved but falled from grace and now are eternally condemned. That would mean these people had frustrated God's salvation plan.

It's all contrary and God says it himself in the bible that men are liars and let God be true. Once saved, always saved.

Saying that one can fall away from being a Christian has nothing with accusing God of not being true! The Bible says that every person who acknowledges the truthfulness of Jesus Christ as God and (perfect) Man, only Savior and Redeemer, has acknowledged the truthfulness of God and is therefore justified by faith.

Your logic concerning the suffering of Christ is refuted by the Bible. The Bible does not say that Jesus only suffered for those who would accept Him, but for every person in the world. Besides Christ's suffering is over. No one can add to it or take away from it. The major suffering for Christ was NOT the physical suffering, but being seperated from His Father, by being held responsible for all sins ever done and to be done.

Have people even read the links I gave? The Bible is CLEAR that it is possible to fall away from the faith. It even gives examples! So what are you gonna say then? That they weren't really converted? Well, the Bible doesn't pass such a judgement on them, but a much worse one - having known Christ and then deliberately turning away from Him again causes the person to receive a much worse judgement than they would get had they never known Christ.

Listen, Christianity has been asleep, and more and more are falling into slumber. Extra-biblical (that means not found in the Bible) doctrines such as OSAS, does NOT help people stay awake! Why do people have such a hard time trusting the Lord without Him saying - "now you can do whatever you want! as long as you accepted Jesus once, it doesn't matter what you do from now on! Let grace become an excuse for sin - doesn't matter - just sin along. Fruits of the Spirit? Nah - not needed. Staying in Christ? Not needed either!! What do you mean the warnings I gave you in the Bible? Oh - right... no don't worry about them, or false teachers seducing you, or false prophets ruining your faith..."

Can't you see that the OSAS-doctrine is completely contrary to God's Word, to His holiness?

What do you make of chapters like Matthew 24 and Luke 13, which are - in essence - just HUGE warnings from Jesus to STAY ALERT and not fall into slumber, sleeping on a pillow false safety? If you're still in Christ when you die, you can shout for joy and THEN you are saved forever - but here - in this age of darkness, we are fighting to keep the faith by which we are justified in God's eyes.

By grace we are saved - through faith! If you turn from your faith in Jesus, you turn your back on the justification by grace through faith as well!
Is this really so hard to understand, or is it just too costy to accept?

Now to you who says that "no one can pluck me from My Father's hand" contradicts 1Tim4: 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

Yes, it may seem like a contradiction, just like many other things in the Bible, but let me tell you all something:

SCRIPTURE INTEPRETS SCRIPTURE

That's why you need to look at more before saying these things. It's clear, from the rest of the Bible, that those who are in the hand of the Father, are those who are taking refuge in Christ from the curse of sin! These words are meant to comfort those who strive and are weary with lack of assurance of salvation so they can rest in God's word - confident of His care and love, and not to be some sleeping pillow for Christians living in sin!

Don't read the Bible with spectacles given to you by preachers who say this and say that, but let your reading spectacles be the cross of Christ and let Scripture interpret Scripture.

And don't be too hasty in taking comfort in doctrines before you've at least read one of the gospels to see if it contradicts Scripture.

[Lynn73]

Can't you see that the OSAS-doctrine is completely contrary to God's Word, to His holiness?

No, some of us see just the opposite. Otherwise we wouldn't believe OSAS.



Now to you who says that "no one can pluck me from My Father's hand" contradicts 1Tim4: 1But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,


1Jo 2:19 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?word=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&st=1&sd=1&new=1&showtools=1) - Show Context (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1jo+2:19&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.Obviously it's all a matter of rightly dividing the word of truth since we know God doesn't contradict Himself. So regardless of whichever side any of us think is doing the misinterpreting, one side is wrong.


The Bible says that we can know we're saved. So if OSnAS is true, how could we ever know that? Are we made aware when we became unsaved again? Can we be saved and lost over and over again? Does that really make any sense. There are just too many questions for that scenario. I remain OSAS. As I'm sure the OSnOS will remain the same.

[Godzchild]

"Now unto him who is able to KEEP YOU FROM FALLING and present you faultless before the presence of his glory in exceeding joy".

[Apologetic]

How am I able to know? By trusting the Lord to be truthful! That's what it's all about! For we are saved by grace through faith, and it is not of yourselves.

Faith in the Lord is a gift which we receive by hearing the Word! This faith is needed for salvation, because it is the very trust in the Lord by which we receive forgiveness for our sins.

By saying that OSAS is true, you deny over 50 warnings in the NT alone that a Christian must be on his guard or else he may fall away from the truth.

[deep_thought_generator]

read the parable of the sower...
this parable describes the many different things that can happen to a person after hearing the word of God.

i do not believe that a person can "lose" their salvation. i do, however, believe that a person can "give up" their salvation. it is a gift of grace...you cant earn it. noone will take a gift they have given you away from you...but you can give it away to someone else if you decide you dont like it. (or sell it even...hence "selling your soul to the devil") for instance...suicide would be a form of giving up your salvation. denying Jesus is an unforgivable sin that will earn you hell...period.

if a person is saved i can only think of two ways that he can give his salvation up. one is by committing suicide...the other is by just turning completely away and never coming back. people that are saved and turn away (i.e. myself) almost always return because of something inside of them that keeps drawing them back (i.e. myself). i do believe that once you are saved...everything after that will only determine the reward that you will recieve in heaven.

the reason i believe that suicide is giving up your salvation is because by commiting suicide you are saying that you choose to no longer run the good race of faith. you no longer desire to put up with this world...youve given up. you will no longer allow Jesus to work in your life. but remember giving your life and taking your life are different things. Jesus gave his life...(as well as other people) but people who commit suicide "take" a life...even though it is their own...it does not belong to them.

so...no...you cant lose your salvation...but you can give it away.

[Stinker]

I want to ask 2 questions. People on this thread advocating what is referred to by some as the 'Doctrine of Insecurity'.....do you claim to be saved? In other words, if you were to suddenly die within this minute, do you know that you will go to heaven?

When I was in my former church we always thought the 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine was fair game. We were taught that one just wouldn't know for sure if they would make it through those heavenly gates till their turn at Judgement was over. This is actually a terrifying thought that Jesus did not want on our minds the moment we realize our time here on earth is over.....but Satan most certainly does.

[Apologetic]

I want to ask 2 questions. People on this thread advocating what is referred to by some as the 'Doctrine of Insecurity'.....do you claim to be saved? In other words, if you were to suddenly die within this minute, do you know that you will go to heaven?

It is not a doctrine of insecurity! It's about staying united with Christ! How can you even try to think that there is any salvation outside Christ? Yet this is what you're saying when you teach people don't need to stay in Christ to get to heaven.

Yes, I know that if I die this very second that I will go to heaven, because I have the Son, and he who has the Son, has life.

When I was in my former church we always thought the 'Once Saved Always Saved' doctrine was fair game. We were taught that one just wouldn't know for sure if they would make it through those heavenly gates till their turn at Judgement was over. This is actually a terrifying thought that Jesus did not want on our minds the moment we realize our time here on earth is over.....but Satan most certainly does.

It doesn't matter if people think it's a fair game. Many people think it's much more comfortable to think that there is no literal hell as well, that people just get annihilated when they die if not saved. That something is comfortable doesn't mean it's right.

[holo]

I don't know what it would take to snatch me out of the hands of Jesus, but I do know sin can never do it. Perhaps I can make the decision to knowingly deny him, but my falls and shortcomings can never take me away from under his blood.

[Lynn73]

It is not a doctrine of insecurity! It's about staying united with Christ! How can you even try to think that there is any salvation outside Christ? Yet this is what you're saying when you teach people don't need to stay in Christ to get to heaven.

Yes, I know that if I die this very second that I will go to heaven, because I have the Son, and he who has the Son, has life.



It doesn't matter if people think it's a fair game. Many people think it's much more comfortable to think that there is no literal hell as well, that people just get annihilated when they die if not saved. That something is comfortable doesn't mean it's right.

Yes it is a doctrine of insecurity. It's based on our works and ability to stay saved. So how do you know you've been good enough to remain in Christ? The Bible says salvation is a gift, not because of any works. So if goods works can't save then bad works or no works cannot remove God's gift. Christ keeps us in Himself, we cannot keep ourselves since we couldn't even save ourselves. Rewards are earned, salvation is a free gift with no strings attached. But what we do with that salvation determines what it'll be like for us in heaven. For some it will be better than others. We can gain and lose reward, NOT salvtation. Otherwise don't call it a gift, call it something God owes us for service rendered.

This man didn't lose his salvation, yet he was sleeping with his father's wife:


1 Corinthians 5:1-5 1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged F14 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=1co+5:1&version=kjv&context=1&showtools=1#F14) already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


However, as you can see, the Lord's discipline was severe. Yet the man's spirit was was going to be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. Continual sin brings discipline from the Father, but we're still His children. Is your child no longer you rchild when they do wrong? Or do you discipline them that they might do right. God disciplined this man to the highest degree. He took his physical life and took him on to heaven.

And, no, I'm not advocating doing whatever you want because we're safe. Should we sin more that grace may abound? God forbid! But I believe God answered the question for me a long time ago and salvation is forever. God knows those who are truly His and we won't get away with our wrong living, we will be disciplined, either here or in heaven as we see all our works burned to ashes and we have no crowns to lay at Jesus' feet. This is what I fear, not having at least one crown to lay at His precious feet.

[holo]

If my salvation doesn't hang on Jesus and Jesus alone, I have no hope.

[Godzchild]

If my salvation doesn't hang on Jesus and Jesus alone, I have no hope

I agree 100%

If Jesus isn't enough then we're all doomed ;)

[Godzchild]

Sorry but Jesus himself said - that NO MAN can pluck you out of your father's hand. Did he lie?

What about when he says "I NEVER knew you"? He didn't say he knew them once and now he doesn't know them anymore - he said he NEVER knew them. He also says he calls his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and FOLLOW HIM. It sounds to me like, if you are his sheep then you will follow...if not then you were NEVER his sheep.

Those who fall away are not God's children and NEVER WERE. If they were then they would have been kept by the power of God and would not have fallen. If they fall then it is manifested that they were NEVER one of them.

No one can lose eternal life - eternal life is eternal life that's why it's eternal.

If you add anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ (good works to get to heaven) then you are not saved - that's what the bible says. You either believe it or you don't. You're either saved or you're not. You have eternal life or you don't. There is no 'saved one minute not the next' salvation. If you have been set free then YOU ARE FREE INDEED - Jesus doesn't leave room for argument!

"Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of his Glory in exceeding joy". <---IF you are his sheep then he will keep you and your place is preserved for you in heaven PERIOD!

[ronmathison]

Salvation is beautiful, and forever. It's entirely based on faith in Christ alone. Please consider Who paid the price, and what price He paid. That message will save many non-Christians. Confusing it, and turning it into a false-message, will cause many to reject it.

We are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, forever.

[WesWoodell]

Sorry but Jesus himself said - that NO MAN can pluck you out of your father's hand. Did he lie?


No He didn't lie. He told the truth.

But just because no man can pluck you out of the Father's hand doesn't mean you can't get up by yourself and jump out of it by your own will.

God would never abandon His children, but that doesn't stop some of His children from abandoning Him.

[Godzchild]

But just because no man can pluck you out of the Father's hand doesn't mean you can't get up by yourself and jump out of it by your own will.


WRONG!!! I am a man (mankind) and it says that NO MAN can pluck you them out of his father's hand - that means me as well since I'm part of man kind.



"I give unto them eternal life; and they shall NEVER!!!!!!! perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (Jn. 10 v 28 )



"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

I am kept by the power of God

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

God has begun a good work in me and he will keep it going until Jesus returns.

Who are we to argue with God? Isn't eternal life eternal?

[joyinhim]

Let's take this situation for an example...

Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.

He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.

So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?

"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."

What will happen?

I believe if we keep focussing in Him We never have to worry about it. We should strive to please Him by fulfilling our responsibilities as Christians. He gave us a lot of responsibilities. By the way, He helps us to do a good job if we ask Him.

[holo]

By the way, He helps us to do a good job if we ask Him.This is where I think it all goes wrong. IMO he doesn't help us, he has already done everything that needs to be done. He doesn't help us become righteous, for example, he IS (our) righteousness.

[joyinhim]

This is where I think it all goes wrong. IMO he doesn't help us, he has already done everything that needs to be done. He doesn't help us become righteous, for example, he IS (our) righteousness.

Well, we are all entitled to our own opinion and practice.;)

[lismore]

Sorry but Jesus himself said - that NO MAN can pluck you out of your father's hand. Did he lie?

What about when he says "I NEVER knew you"? He didn't say he knew them once and now he doesn't know them anymore - he said he NEVER knew them. He also says he calls his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and FOLLOW HIM. It sounds to me like, if you are his sheep then you will follow...if not then you were NEVER his sheep.

Those who fall away are not God's children and NEVER WERE. If they were then they would have been kept by the power of God and would not have fallen. If they fall then it is manifested that they were NEVER one of them.

No one can lose eternal life - eternal life is eternal life that's why it's eternal.

If you add anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ (good works to get to heaven) then you are not saved - that's what the bible says. You either believe it or you don't. You're either saved or you're not. You have eternal life or you don't. There is no 'saved one minute not the next' salvation. If you have been set free then YOU ARE FREE INDEED - Jesus doesn't leave room for argument!

"Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of his Glory in exceeding joy". <---IF you are his sheep then he will keep you and your place is preserved for you in heaven PERIOD!

:amen:

[Jim Woodell]

[QUOTE=Godzchild]Sorry but Jesus himself said - that NO MAN can pluck you out of your father's hand. Did he lie?

See Matt. 24:12. Although no man can pluck us from God's hand, that does not mean that we cannot choose to leave His hand of our own accord.


What about when he says "I NEVER knew you"? He didn't say he knew them once and now he doesn't know them anymore - he said he NEVER knew them. He also says he calls his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and FOLLOW HIM. It sounds to me like, if you are his sheep then you will follow...if not then you were NEVER his sheep.

Certainly it is possible that some think they are saved but are not in the family of God. (Matt. 7:21-23) The question is though, can a person be saved and then be lost? The Bible teaches that this can happen. (Heb. 6:4-6;10:26-31).

What do you do with the "lost sheep?" (Luke 15:3-7) It was a sheep that was "in the fold," but "left the fold, was lost and then found."


Those who fall away are not God's children and NEVER WERE. If they were then they would have been kept by the power of God and would not have fallen. If they fall then it is manifested that they were NEVER one of them.


This is a dangerous doctrine and not in harmony with what the Bible teaches. A young lady, whose dad is a preacher of this persuasion, didn't have on enough clothes to "wad a shotgun", smoking a Va. slim and with a illegitimate child on her lap proclaimed, "I know I am saved because I accepted Christ when I was 12 years old and once saved, always saved!" This is the fruit of that doctrine.

No one can lose eternal life - eternal life is eternal life that's why it's eternal.

Once you die you go into eternity. This life is temporal. "It is appointed unto man once to die..." (Heb. 9:27) Read Matt. 24:42-51. Why the urgency to "be ready?"


If you add anything other than the gospel of Jesus Christ (good works to get to heaven) then you are not saved - that's what the bible says. You either believe it or you don't. You're either saved or you're not. You have eternal life or you don't. There is no 'saved one minute not the next' salvation. If you have been set free then YOU ARE FREE INDEED - Jesus doesn't leave room for argument!

You work out of your salvation, not into it. The point is that you can be "drawn away of your own lust (even as a Christian), and enticed (to sin). Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, give birth to death." (James 1:13-15) Also check out James 5:19-20. This is addressed to "brothers."

[QUOTE]"Now unto him who is able to keep you from falling, and present you faultless before the presence of his Glory in exceeding joy". <---IF you are his sheep then he will keep you and your place is preserved for you in heaven PERIOD![/ QUOTE]

Jude vs. 24 is a beautiful and meaningful verse. It is similar to 1 Cor. 10:13 that promises, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And GOD IS FAITHFUL; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, HE WILL ALSO PROVIDE A WAY OUT so that YOU can stand up under it." Please read these verses in their immediate context. For instance, please read 1 Cor. 10:1-12. What is the warning here? Read the rest of Jude, before vs. 24. What is the warning of this book?

Jude 3 "I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith...(4) For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you...(6) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home (they did not cease to be angels, but they became "fallen" angels)...(7)In a similar way...gave themselves up to sexual immorality (their choice)...

I urge you to read the book of Jude in its entirety. The call is to hang in there! Be faithful to the end. Don't cease to run the race on God's terms!

God is able to keep us from falling and He will provide a way of escape from every temptation, but we must choose to let Him. God will let us walk away, even His disciples, if we want to (John 6:66-69).

God bless!

[Entertaining_Angels]

This thread has really had me thinking about the subject. I know the Bible is clear there are many who believe they are saved but are, in truth, unsaved. Those ones are easily plucked away. For those who truly love the Lord with all their hearts, I cannot imagine them plucked away but I've been really studying the NT for a couple years now and it is tough to give a definitive answer. We all need to be wary and, perhaps we need to be wary that ours may not be true faith. We need need to study the Word faithfully and not be deceived and I know, especially here in America, deception is rampant.

[Godzchild]

See Matt. 24:12. Although no man can pluck us from God's hand, that does not mean that we cannot choose to leave His hand of our own accord.

Yes it does!! I am a man (well actually I'm a woman but you know what I mean ;) ) and it says that NO MAN can pluck them out of my father's hand. Therefore I take it as meaning myself as well - since I am a man! I cannot pluck myself out because it says that no man can.

Certainly it is possible that some think they are saved but are not in the family of God. (Matt. 7:21-23) The question is though, can a person be saved and then be lost? The Bible teaches that this can happen. (Heb. 6:4-6;10:26-31).

Well think about this...can a person be 'unborn' again? Can a person be 'unspirit' filled? And what about the power of God keeping us from falling? The answer is no! A true Christian cannot be lost because the Spirit will always bring them back ALWAYS. Jesus will leave the other sheep and go out and look for the one who is wandering off and he will find them and bring them back. The question is...are you his sheep? If so then he has called you and known you from before the foundations of the world...if not then he NEVER knew you!

What do you do with the "lost sheep?" (Luke 15:3-7) It was a sheep that was "in the fold," but "left the fold, was lost and then found."

You just answered your own question. THEY ARE FOUND! Or don't you think Christ is capable of finding those who are lost. His sheep hear his voice and follow him. He calls them and they follow. If they don't hear him and don't follow then they're not his sheep.

This is a dangerous doctrine and not in harmony with what the Bible teaches. A young lady, whose dad is a preacher of this persuasion, didn't have on enough clothes to "wad a shotgun", smoking a Va. slim and with a illegitimate child on her lap proclaimed, "I know I am saved because I accepted Christ when I was 12 years old and once saved, always saved!" This is the fruit of that doctrine.

The doctrine that I believe in is that of the bible. The bible says that I am kept by the power of God...

1 Pet 1:4-5
4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
(NKJ)


So what you are saying is that the above scripture is dangerous?

Once you die you go into eternity. This life is temporal. "It is appointed unto man once to die..." (Heb. 9:27) Read Matt. 24:42-51. Why the urgency to "be ready?"

Huh? Because Jesus can return at any moment and we must be born of God or we will not rise again with him. But that's now what we're arguing! What we are arguing is if we can be 'unborn' once we are born again? Can we? Can we lose eternal life? If so...why is it called 'eternal life' if it's not really eternal and it's governed by the actions of our flesh?

You work out of your salvation, not into it.

Sorry you are wrong! You cannot salve yourself...anymore than you can unsave yourself - you do not have that power! Christ is the saviour not us!

The point is that you can be "drawn away of your own lust (even as a Christian), and enticed (to sin). Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, give birth to death." (James 1:13-15) Also check out James 5:19-20. This is addressed to "brothers."

We ALLLLLLLLLLL sin!!!!!!!! HELLO!!!! Those who say they don't do not have the spirit of Christ in them. We can be drawn away but we are brought back! Jesus comes and he brings us back via the Holy Spirit. The spirit guides our paths and brings us to rememberance and repentence! No one said that Christians can't walk away...but what I'm saying is that they can be brought back! I am living proof of this!!!! Why don't you ask me my testimony huh?

Jude vs. 24 is a beautiful and meaningful verse. It is similar to 1 Cor. 10:13 that promises, "No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And GOD IS FAITHFUL; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, HE WILL ALSO PROVIDE A WAY OUT so that YOU can stand up under it." Please read these verses in their immediate context. For instance, please read 1 Cor. 10:1-12. What is the warning here? Read the rest of Jude, before vs. 24. What is the warning of this book?

The warning are for those who are not saved. Are you saying that the things written before v 24 overide v 24? No they don't. God keeps us and preserves us.

Jude 3 "I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith...(4) For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you...(6) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home (they did not cease to be angels, but they became "fallen" angels)...(7)In a similar way...gave themselves up to sexual immorality (their choice)...

I urge you to read the book of Jude in its entirety. The call is to hang in there! Be faithful to the end. Don't cease to run the race on God's terms!

Why are we to hang in there though? The message I got from that book is to don't give up because there is a reward. But I also got the message the God will keep us from falling! NOthing there about losing one's salvation because salvation is eternal. What you are trying to do is change the definition of 'eternal' to mean 'not eternal'. Can't be done!

God is able to keep us from falling and He will provide a way of escape from every temptation, but we must choose to let Him. God will let us walk away, even His disciples, if we want to (John 6:66-69).

And the Holy Spirit will guide us back!!! I've fallen! Did you know that? I have fallen from Grace pretty majorly but guess what??? Jesus did not let go of me...no sireeeee! Why? Because I am his child! I am saved! And he did not allow me to fall so far as to not be able to come back. He provided a way out and the Holy Spirit guided me back! NONE of it was my own doing because I didn't know what I needed...I was like an injured wild animal lashing out at anyone who tried to help me and I did so because I was hurt and in pain! I needed help and Jesus NEVER let me go! He NEVER left me there to die. Even when it seemed I hated him...he knew better!!! He knew me! I am his sheep and he knows me by name! And no way was he going to allow Satan to pluck me out of his hand! It is all predestined!!!!

What better person to talk about God's grace and eternal salvation than one who has tested it and had to rely on his grace and mercy! The bible only confirms what Christ has done for me. I walked away!!!! But he brought me back!

So argue all you like! My life tells a different story to what you are preaching!

[aggie03]

In the parable of the prodigcal son, doesn't the Father say that his son was dead, but now is alive? Someone can't be "unborn" but surely they can die.

[Godzchild]

In the parable of the prodigcal son, doesn't the Father say that his son was dead, but now is alive? Someone can't be "unborn" but surely they can die.


The prodical didn't die, the father thought he was dead. My parents thought i was dead (in sin) too until I came back. You know that Jesus can raise the dead don't you?

[flyingsum0]

For almost two years I was dead to the spirtual part of my life...I shunned anything to do with it and pretty much decended into a life of depression, anger, hatred and lies...to the point that I could barely remeber my name and who I was through all the lies...

Now step by step, I'm coming back! I removing the sin from my life piece by piece and I can't tell you how good I feel about it! Jesus does not forget our names and who we are, this I can testify to, because now that I pray to His name I can finally once again remeber mine...

God Bless you All!

[Godzchild]

For almost two years I was dead to the spirtual part of my life...I shunned anything to do with it and pretty much decended into a life of depression, anger, hatred and lies...to the point that I could barely remeber my name and who I was through all the lies...

Now step by step, I'm coming back! I removing the sin from my life piece by piece and I can't tell you how good I feel about it! Jesus does not forget our names and who we are, this I can testify to, because now that I pray to His name I can finally once again remeber mine...

Thank you!!!!! Yes!

How can people understand the power of God's ability to keep you and bring you back from the brink of despair if they haven't had to rely on him before? How can anyone understand God's grace and mercy and his rod of correction to bring us back to the straight and narrow...if they've never had to rely on it? I am a Child of God and my Daddy chastises me when I make a mistake - he corrects me, and if I run away he runs after me and brings me back to where I belong.

And as a parent I do that to my children too. I never say to my 2 year old..."Well that's it...you walked away...so you're not my child now" NEVER!!!! No I call out to her and run after her and seek her out - because I'm a her parent. How much more would God do for his children?

[joyinhim]

For almost two years I was dead to the spirtual part of my life...I shunned anything to do with it and pretty much decended into a life of depression, anger, hatred and lies...to the point that I could barely remeber my name and who I was through all the lies...

Now step by step, I'm coming back! I removing the sin from my life piece by piece and I can't tell you how good I feel about it! Jesus does not forget our names and who we are, this I can testify to, because now that I pray to His name I can finally once again remeber mine...

God Bless you All!

God bless you! Of course He never forgets anyone. We are the one who forget about Him. As long as we remember to go back to Him, He always welcomes us, no matter how long you have been away or what you did. We just have to turn arround from all sinful way of life and mentality.:amen:

[Jim Woodell]

The prodical didn't die, the father thought he was dead. My parents thought i was dead (in sin) too until I came back. You know that Jesus can raise the dead don't you?

What you are saying is just NOT what the text says. It seems to me that you are replacing the plain text with your preconceived notion that falling away from God is impossible.

God said, "My son was LOST, and now is FOUND, was DEAD and is now ALIVE."

He did not die physically, but he did die spiritually.

[Stinker]

The 3 parables of (Lk.15) the Lost Sheep, The Lost Coin, and The Prodigal Son, are all an answer to the Scribes and Pharisees, answering their complaint about how all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to Him. They were saying; "This man receives sinners and eats with them." (Lk.15:2)

Jesus did not personally gear His ministry to reach the Gentiles. His was to reach only the house of Israel. "I was sent only to the house of Israel." (Mt.15:24)

The ministry of Jesus was geared to the Jews that did not belong to the Jewish clergy.

These parables are not proof that the Pharisees and Scribes were the saved (99 sheep Lk.15:3-7), saved (9 coins Lk.15:8-10), saved (older son Lk.15:25-32).

[Godzchild]

You said....

What you are saying is just NOT what the text says. It seems to me that you are replacing the plain text with your preconceived notion that falling away from God is impossible.
.

Sounds to me like you have done the same thing. See here...

He did not die physically, but he did die spiritually

That's not what the text says. ;)

And you totally did not make comment of the other points I've made.

A true child of Christ can fall but they cannot fall so far as to not be able to come back...the reason is that the power of God keeps them from falling and brings them back. I am proof of this very thing.

[FaithAlone]

Here are some scriptures that I typed up one day on security of salvation:

Can a Believer Lose His/Her Salvation?

Once someone is saved they are saved forever. Here are some verses that assure us that if we have accepted Christ as our Savior we will be with Christ in Heaven when we die:

John 3:18– We are no longer judged when we accept Christ
John 5:24– We have passed out of death into life
John 6:37-40– Jesus will not cast us out. He will lose nothing. That means us.
John 10:27-30– No one (even you) can snatch you out of God’s hand
Acts13:39– Once we have accepted Christ we are free from all things
Romans 8:1– There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus
Romans 8:35-39– Nothing can separate us from the love of God
Romans 11:29– God’s calling can’t be taken back
1 Corinthians 3: 9-23– vs 15-If we turn from God after we have been saved we will be saved but with very few rewards. Vs 23– We belong to Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:22– We are sealed by the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:17– We are a new creature in Christ. The old things have passed away Ephesians 1:13-sealed by the Spirit
Ephesians 4:30– sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption
Philippians 1:6– God will perfect what He started in you
Colossians 2:13&14– Christ already paid for ALL of our sins. When we accept Him as our Savior His blood covers ALL of our sins
Colossians 3:3&4– We are hidden with Christ in God. Christ is our life and will reveal us in Heaven.
Hebrews 7:25-27– He covered ALL sins when He offered Himself up on the cross Hebrews 10:10, 10:14
1 Peter 1:4&5
Jude 1:1– We are kept for Christ
So why do good if we are already saved?

John 14:15– If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Romans 6– Should we continue in sin so that grace may abound? May it never be!
1 Corinthians 6:12 & 10:23- ALL things are lawful for us but not all are profitable.
1 Peter 2:16– Do not use your freedom as a covering for evil
If we are truly Christians then Christ’s love should be all the fuel we need to do good.

[linssue55]

ONCE WE ARE SAVED......NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING....will ever change that........ We are in Union with Christ at Salvation....we inherit 46 things immediately that become a part of our portfolleow of invisible assets, and 1 of these assets are... we are a member of the family of God (trinity) we are in union with Christ, we become His heirs and PERMANENT FAMILY MEMBERS of the family of Christ. This is only 1 of the 7000 promises in the bible for us to claim. If a believer no longer believes he has become CARNAL, and is grieving and quenching the spirit, nothing more. Just because he lost his faith, doesn't mean the Lord has, he is still a permanent menber of His family. That will never change!!!!!

[joyinhim]

ONCE WE ARE SAVED......NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING....will ever change that........ We are in Union with Christ at Salvation....we inherit 46 things immediately that become a part of our portfolleow of invisible assets, and 1 of these assets are... we are a member of the family of God (trinity) we are in union with Christ, we become His heirs and PERMANENT FAMILY MEMBERS of the family of Christ. This is only 1 of the 7000 promises in the bible for us to claim. If a believer no longer believes he has become CARNAL, and is grieving and quenching the spirit, nothing more. Just because he lost his faith, doesn't mean the Lord has, he is still a permanent menber of His family. That will never change!!!!!

I have heard so many Christians saying that we are saved so we don't have to do anything or we can not earn salvation by works.

We have to be very careful what we say to each other or to non-believers. If what we say causes anyone to stumble we will be in deep trouble with the Lord.

We are supposed to help each other to be obedient to the Lord and not just making each other feel good for being Christians and not being the salt and light in the world.

[FaithAlone]

Faith without works is dead. When you are saved by grace through faith you will work because of the love that you have for the Lord. It is not anything out of necessity, but out of wanting to please Him because you love Him. You can have works without faith but you can't have true faith in Jesus Christ without works. It's just a natural reaction to an encounter with Christ.

[joyinhim]

Faith without works is dead. When you are saved by grace through faith you will work because of the love that you have for the Lord. It is not anything out of necessity, but out of wanting to please Him because you love Him. You can have works without faith but you can't have true faith in Jesus Christ without works. It's just a natural reaction to an encounter with Christ.

So true.:amen:

[linssue55]

I have heard so many Christians saying that we are saved so we don't have to do anything or we can not earn salvation by works.

We have to be very careful what we say to each other or to non-believers. If what we say causes anyone to stumble we will be in deep trouble with the Lord.

We are supposed to help each other to be obedient to the Lord and not just making each other feel good for being Christians and not being the salt and light in the world.


We didn't earn it or deserve it............


"Salvation is a GIFT from God, and NOT OF WORKS, lest ANY MAN should boast"

All sins were paid for on the cross...this is called redemtion...reconcilliation and propitiation...........ALL works will be burned at the LAST JUDGEMENT

"Works are like white washed tombstones, beautiful on the outside, but inside full of dead mens bones".

Jesus did the work all we do is claim it...........If this isn't salt and light then you need to talk to the Lord about his package of invisible assets to all believers.

[joyinhim]

We didn't earn it or deserve it............


"Salvation is a GIFT from God, and NOT OF WORKS, lest ANY MAN should boast"

All sins were paid for on the cross...this is called redemtion...reconcilliation and propitiation...........ALL works will be burned at the LAST JUDGEMENT

"Works are like white washed tombstones, beautiful on the outside, but inside full of dead mens bones".

Jesus did the work all we do is claim it...........If this isn't salt and light then you need to talk to the Lord about his package of invisible assets to all believers.

You make it sound like i said something unbiblical.:confused:

[linssue55]

Faith without works is dead. When you are saved by grace through faith you will work because of the love that you have for the Lord. It is not anything out of necessity, but out of wanting to please Him because you love Him. You can have works without faith but you can't have true faith in Jesus Christ without works. It's just a natural reaction to an encounter with Christ.

Works OUT of fellowship will be burned at the last judgement, ....Works IN fellowship are the honorable works.....And how do we stay in fellowship? 1 John 1:9..........

When we are Carnal, "works are as filthy rags in His sight", and "white washed tombstones, beautiful on the outside but on the inside, full of dead mens bones".

Works IN fellowship are wonderful and count towards our escrow blessings in eternity....but OUT of fellowship they will be burned.......... so all we have to do is stay in fellowship and not grieve or quench the spirit, until we need... thats why He gives us 1 John 1:9 again ......

[linssue55]

You make it sound like i said something unbiblical.:confused:


No not at all.......it's just it sounded as though I had to work for God's love and provisions......what you said kinda of confused me.........???

[linssue55]

Gosh...I love this site...it is sooo great to talk to other Christians about the Lord and to exchange doctrines...thank you all

[joyinhim]

No not at all.......it's just it sounded as though I had to work for God's love and provisions......what you said kinda of confused me.........???

Because He loves us so much we should be salt and light in the world for Him. Besides He tells us to.;)

[naos]

Works that are not a byproduct of Faith are considered less than of no worth. They are actually counted as debt.

True faith actually produces of itself, works. Those are the type James was speaking of. Faith produces works. Not people produce works, but faith produces works. They can only be seen by those who have not been the instrument of realization.

If a person can see of themselves that they have done this or that work, it is not a work of faith. If they see a work of faith because somebody else brings it to their attention, then that can truely be considered a work of faith.

[naos]

Works that are not a byproduct of Faith are considered less than of no worth. They are actually counted as debt.

True faith actually produces of itself, works. Those are the type James was speaking of. Faith produces works. Not people produce works, but faith produces works. They can only be seen by those who have not been the instrument of realization.

If a person can see of themselves that they have done this or that work, it is not a work of faith. If they see a work of faith because somebody else brings it to their attention, then that can truely be considered a work of faith.

I think I meant to post this in the other thread. Now I don't know how to take it from here and put it there. :D

[Godzchild]

Works OUT of fellowship will be burned at the last judgement, ....Works IN fellowship are the honorable works.....And how do we stay in fellowship? 1 John 1:9..........

When we are Carnal, "works are as filthy rags in His sight", and "white washed tombstones, beautiful on the outside but on the inside, full of dead mens bones".

Works IN fellowship are wonderful and count towards our escrow blessings in eternity....but OUT of fellowship they will be burned.......... so all we have to do is stay in fellowship and not grieve or quench the spirit, until we need... thats why He gives us 1 John 1:9 again ......

IF we are in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of JEsus Christ His son cleanses us from every sin when we walk in the light.

[linssue55]

Because He loves us so much we should be salt and light in the world for Him. Besides He tells us to.;)

:D ABSOLUTELY..........

[linssue55]

Because He loves us so much we should be salt and light in the world for Him. Besides He tells us to.;)

ABSOLUTELY!!:)

[linssue55]

Works that are not a byproduct of Faith are considered less than of no worth. They are actually counted as debt.

True faith actually produces of itself, works. Those are the type James was speaking of. Faith produces works. Not people produce works, but faith produces works. They can only be seen by those who have not been the instrument of realization.

If a person can see of themselves that they have done this or that work, it is not a work of faith. If they see a work of faith because somebody else brings it to their attention, then that can truely be considered a work of faith.

Ditto.........:clap:

[linssue55]

IF we are in the light as He is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of JEsus Christ His son cleanses us from every sin when we walk in the light.


Yes....but by using 1 John 1:9, I am simply AKNOWLEDGING my sins that He paid for me 2000 yrs. ago, (He cleansed us from our sins over 2000 yrs. ago) ..... because if I DON"T, I will then begin to grieve and quench the Holy Spirit in me and start building scar tissue of the soul, and that puts me into carnality.....so therefore I keep close account of my sins and use 1 John 1:9 when needed to stay in fellowship with the Lord and to walk in the light.........

[Godzchild]

You better watch out then you might become 'unborn' again!!! LOL ;)

[linssue55]

You better watch out then you might become 'unborn' again!!! LOL ;)

LOL Yeh right......I don't think so, I am a member of the Royal Family of God as are all believers...so sin is not the issue...we are under Grace...no longer the law...so I guess I am stuck in the Royal Family...LOL :thumbsup:

[holo]

I count my sins every day. I go, there's one... there's that sexual secret... there's a little hate... and oh my, what have we here, a chunk of pride... oh yes, there's that episode when I cursed my dad....

etc

And I check all the points on the list with a red marker. It's symbolic, it represents the blood of Jesus.

[naos]

I count my sins every day. I go, there's one... there's that sexual secret... there's a little hate... and oh my, what have we here, a chunk of pride... oh yes, there's that episode when I cursed my dad....

etc

And I check all the points on the list with a red marker. It's symbolic, it represents the blood of Jesus.

Isa 1:18
18 "Come now, and let us reason together,"
Says the LORD,
"Though your sins are like scarlet,
They shall be as white as snow;
Though they are red like crimson,
They shall be as wool.


I have learned to write my sins in red ink. Then when I look at them through blood colored, opps, I mean rose colored glasses they completely disappear. ;) :D

[holo]

:)

Grace rocks.

[naos]

:)

Grace rocks.

Yes He does brother. Yes He does! Amen!

[joyinhim]

Yes He does brother. Yes He does! Amen!

Does anyone get affected by your sins like your family or neighbors, freiends etc?

[holo]

Does anyone get affected by your sins like your family or neighbors, freiends etc?Yes, to the extent that sin brings death and harms people. But not in the sense that I need to judge them or fear that the blood of Jesus doesn't cover them.

[joyinhim]

Yes, to the extent that sin brings death and harms people. But not in the sense that I need to judge them or fear that the blood of Jesus doesn't cover them.

Jesus tells us plainly to "love your neighbors as yourself." Why do you harm people with your sins? What part of the "love" don't you understand?

[holo]

Jesus tells us plainly to "love your neighbors as yourself." Why do you harm people with your sins? What part of the "love" don't you understand?Oh, sorry, I misread your post. I thought you asked if I was affected (cared about) by other people's sins. Sorry about that.

[holo]

But to actually answer your question,Does anyone get affected by your sins like your family or neighbors, freiends etc?yes.

That's why I need Jesus just as much now as I did when I first found him. If not more.

[joyinhim]

Let's take this situation for an example...

Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.

He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.

So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?

"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."

What will happen?

I don't understand why Christians bring up such questions. It's God's job to decide who is saved and who is not. If we truly love God we don't have to worry about it. If we don't why don't we just repent and recover a true relationship with Him? If we keep thinking that we are OK, are already saved, and we keep going on in an unchanged life (live worldly lifestyles) then we have reason to worry about our salvation. Christians who tell other Christians that we don't need good works because we are already saved are working against God.

[Godzchild]

LOL Yeh right......I don't think so, I am a member of the Royal Family of God as are all believers...so sin is not the issue...we are under Grace...no longer the law...so I guess I am stuck in the Royal Family...LOL :thumbsup:

Aaaah good stuff!!! I'm a part of this Royal Family too...yay for us!! :) And I'll second the Grace Rocks notion too .

[joyinhim]

But to actually answer your question,yes.

That's why I need Jesus just as much now as I did when I first found him. If not more.

And you keep hurt them with your sins?

[ronmathison]

I don't understand why Christians bring up such questions. It's God's job to decide who is saved and who is not. If we truly love God we don't have to worry about it.

This is very true. An always saved Christian (possible only after pentecost) will always cling to God. Period.

[holo]

And you keep hurt them with your sins?Yes, probably more than I'm even aware of.

edit: just like my friends' and family's sins hurt me sometimes. My mum hurt me deeply last night, for example. Goes both ways.

[naos]

Does anyone get affected by your sins like your family or neighbors, freiends etc?

I would ask you the same question. Your implication that I am unloving because I walk in the Liberty bought for me is not only mistaken, but a little offensive too.

[joyinhim]

I would ask you the same question. Your implication that I am unloving because I walk in the Liberty bought for me is not only mistaken, but a little offensive too.

If I hurt someone because of my sin I apologise and stop doint it. This simple practice is not supported by most Christians. We just talk the talk.:cry:

[FaithAlone]

When I love the Lord I want to have a relationship with Him. Then He convicts me of what's right and wrong and helps me do the right thing. My sins do affect others so I do my best to not wrong them. That doesn't mean that I will perfectly do that though. I have a problem with people who think they're good to go because they've traded their "BIG" sins for ones that aren't as visible. Sin is sin and we need to have repentant hearts at all times. The more you realize that you're a sinner and can never be perfect, the more you are thankful that Christ paid for all of your sins. It's that cycle that helps you serve Christ.

[joyinhim]

When I love the Lord I want to have a relationship with Him. Then He convicts me of what's right and wrong and helps me do the right thing. My sins do affect others so I do my best to not wrong them. That doesn't mean that I will perfectly do that though. I have a problem with people who think they're good to go because they've traded their "BIG" sins for ones that aren't as visible. Sin is sin and we need to have repentant hearts at all times. The more you realize that you're a sinner and can never be perfect, the more you are thankful that Christ paid for all of your sins. It's that cycle that helps you serve Christ.

:wave: :thumbsup: :clap: :amen:

[holo]

If I hurt someone because of my sin I apologise and stop doint it. This simple practice is not supported by most Christians. We just talk the talk.:cry:I wouldn't know. I don't know "most christians" :)

[joyinhim]

I wouldn't know. I don't know "most christians" :)

If you honestly open your eyes you would know. Don't you have any Christian friends, relatives co-workers or neighbors or even at your church:scratch: ?

[naos]

If I hurt someone because of my sin I apologise and stop doint it. This simple practice is not supported by most Christians. We just talk the talk.:cry:

I'm sort of confused. Is this an apology for offense, or is it sarcasim?

Even if it's sarcasim it doesn't really matter much to me. If God could find a way to forgive a jerk like me, I am positive He will forgive a little sarcasim at my expense. He's kind of loving that way. :)

[holo]

If you honestly open your eyes you would know. Don't you have any Christian friends, relatives co-workers or neighbors or even at your church:scratch: ?Oh I do, I've grown up with them and I still have them. Most of my family are christians. But still, that's only like, I dunno, 50 people?

I do draw conclusions from message boards and stuff I read and videos I see, but I don't know many of them personally, you know.

For example, I'm bold (foolish) enough to assume I know a little about american christianity based on what the americans are posting here. But I also realize I'm being presumptious when I say stuff like "americans are like this and that".
Cath my drift?

[joyinhim]

I'm sort of confused. Is this an apology for offense, or is it sarcasim?

Even if it's sarcasim it doesn't really matter much to me. If God could find a way to forgive a jerk like me, I am positive He will forgive a little sarcasim at my expense. He's kind of loving that way. :)

No I am not being sarcastic. I am talking about the seriousness of sins. God gave us commandments to keep us from hurting each other. So many Christians are offended by His commandments. I just don't get it. Why does keeping His commandment make us legalists? I am trying to make you understand what you are doing with your comments or Christianity. If we love each other we keep will His commandments. It's just simple logic.

Instead of just writing on the paper, stop sinning.:preach:

This is also for holo:wave: