Can you fall from being saved?

[SpiritPsalmist]

I've been concentrating on other aspects of this thread, but I'm curious about where this is going now.

Okay, so do you make a distinction between continuing to sin and committing a sin?

I do. I believe that once we are saved we no longer continue on in sin. We don't continually commit the same sins knowing they are wrong. We know that there is no temptation that we cannot overcome with the Lord's help. However, occasionally (and far less frequently now that we're saved) we do sin and as a result we pray, repent and ask forgiveness. We don't continue on in that sin.

Although I've known people who believe they are without sin as christians, I've seen them sin numerous times. I only hope that they are not deceiving themselves by not repenting and seeking forgiveness.

Yes! Continuance is a lifestyle. Jesus said, "IF you love Me you will obey Me", leaveing the implication of course that if we continue to live and walk as children of darkness then we do not really love Him.

Eph 5:8 "For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light"

I don't consider stumbling a lifestyle of sin, yet as quoted in a previous post we can see the steps of even overcoming stumbling. I believe forgiveness is a given upon repentance. It's repent and turn not repent and ask for forgiveness.

[Godzchild]

I'm sorry, I thought I was quite clear that we, in and of ourselves can do nothing. :scratch: Perhaps that part of my previous post was overlooked.

Yeh I must have overlooked that - sorry ;) LOL

Tis true WE CANNOT stop sinning...rather it's Christ in us who is sinless.

If we're obeying we're not sinning. It's when we stop obeying that we sin.


We can't obey! Rather we are to walk in Christ's obedience. "walking in the spirit".

If we've turned ourselves from the wrong way we are now going the right way and not sinning.

If we've converted we're no longer doing the wrong things.

If we've turned to God, then we are resisting the devil and he's fleeing from us.



This is true but sometimes we still sin though. Paul himself sinned. He said 'My flesh does what my spirit doesn't want to do"....."It's not I that sins rather it's my flesh". We are to consider ourselves already dead to sin and alive to God. Any sin that our flesh commits has been paid for.

No, I believe she obeyed, turned herself, converted, and turned to God. I don't beleive she did continue to sin.

She never sinned again??? I don't believe that. The only person who was able to never sin was Christ! No man can say that he is sinless...if he does he does not have christ in him. I don't believe she obeyed either, nor did she turn herself or convert...what I did see, however, is that a bunch of pharisees were going to stone her, for her sin, all the while being sinners themselves. Jesus came along and convicted them...then turned around to the woman and told her her sins were forgiven go and sin no more. She did nothing! Did she even speak a word?

I'm still waiting for scripture that says we are to ask God for forgiveness when we sin. No one has been able to provide that one yet ;)

[Entertaining_Angels]

I'm still waiting for scripture that says we are to ask God for forgiveness when we sin. No one has been able to provide that one yet ;)


I'm curious, where are you going with this?

This is all pretty interesting to me. Y'all have me really digging into Scriptures here...always a good thing.

[Godzchild]

Well I believe that we don't have to ask for forgiveness... and there's a reason for this. It's because we are already forgiven. I believe it's a given, when the HOly Spirit leads us to repentence, we repent and we are forgiven. I dont' believe we have to actually ask God to forgive when it's already done.

[Entertaining_Angels]

Well I believe that we don't have to ask for forgiveness... and there's a reason for this. It's because we are already forgiven. I believe it's a given, when the HOly Spirit leads us to repentence, we repent and we are forgiven. I dont' believe we have to actually ask God to forgive when it's already done.

you believe this even if, after we're saved, we sin again?

I believe that once we are saved, we are forgiven of all sins but if we have the occasional relapse (i.e. lie to someone on the phone saying we're just on our way out the door when in reality we just don't feel like talking), we need to repent and a part of repenting is asking forgiveness.

This does make me think though...

[SpiritPsalmist]

We can't obey! Rather we are to walk in Christ's obedience. "walking in the spirit".

I think we may have to agree to disagree. Those scriptures I gave said, "turn yourselves". If we had nothing whatsoever to do with the choices we would not need the instructions on how to walk. We would not be told to walk as children of the light if Christ were going to automatically do it for us. I don't believe we are puppets that God suddenly desides to pick up and make do what we don't want to do. Do you have any scripture to back up what you are saying?

This is true but sometimes we still sin though. Paul himself sinned. He said 'My flesh does what my spirit doesn't want to do"....."It's not I that sins rather it's my flesh". We are to consider ourselves already dead to sin and alive to God. Any sin that our flesh commits has been paid for.

You initially used the word "continually". I don't beleive we can call ourselves children of light and "continue" to sin. Continue is a lifestyle...not the same as stumbling...which even that we have scripture showing us how NOT to stumble.

She never sinned again??? I don't believe that. The only person who was able to never sin was Christ! No man can say that he is sinless...if he does he does not have christ in him. I don't believe she obeyed either, nor did she turn herself or convert...what I did see, however, is that a bunch of pharisees were going to stone her, for her sin, all the while being sinners themselves. Jesus came along and convicted them...then turned around to the woman and told her her sins were forgiven go and sin no more. She did nothing! Did she even speak a word?

I said she did not "continue" in sin.

I'm still waiting for scripture that says we are to ask God for forgiveness when we sin. No one has been able to provide that one yet ;)

I gave you several scriptures for the orig way you worded your question. You have changed the wording in this post. It was: where does the scripture instruct us to ask God for forgiveness and stop sinning.

To me repentance and seeking forgiveness are the same thing. If we are repentant we are sorry and God knowing our hearts percieves it as needing forgiveness and automaticaly gives it. If we are truely repentant, we are forgiven and turn ourselves away from our wicked ways and toward God and we will not continue in sin.

[Godzchild]

you believe this even if, after we're saved, we sin again?

I believe that once we are saved, we are forgiven of all sins but if we have the occasional relapse (i.e. lie to someone on the phone saying we're just on our way out the door when in reality we just don't feel like talking), we need to repent and a part of repenting is asking forgiveness.



repentence is not asking for forgiveness. The bible doesn't say that we are to ask for forgiveness...just repent!

[Godzchild]

I think we may have to agree to disagree. Those scriptures I gave said, "turn yourselves". If we had nothing whatsoever to do with the choices we would not need the instructions on how to walk. We would not be told to walk as children of the light if Christ were going to automatically do it for us. I don't believe we are puppets that God suddenly desides to pick up and make do what we don't want to do. Do you have any scripture to back up what you are saying?


Romans 7 and 8 are good. If we allow God to use us like puppets (by walking in the spirit) then we are able to fulfill the commandments through Christ. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying - it's probably my fault.

You initially used the word "continually". I don't beleive we can call ourselves children of light and "continue" to sin. Continue is a lifestyle...not the same as stumbling...which even that we have scripture showing us how NOT to stumble.


Aaaah I think this is were we are crossing paths ;) Yeh I don't believe Christians can continue to sin - no!

To me repentance and seeking forgiveness are the same thing. If we are repentant we are sorry and God knowing our hearts percieves it as needing forgiveness and automaticaly gives it. If we are truely repentant, we are forgiven and turn ourselves away from our wicked ways and toward God and we will not continue in sin.

Well it actually isn't. When we repent we are obviously sorry but we don't have to ASK for forgiveness though. We are only to repent.

According to 'lexicon's concordance'

Result of search for "repent":


3338 metamellomai met-am-el'-lom-ahee from 3326 and the middle voice of 3199; to care afterwards, i.e. regret:--repent (self). 3340 metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.

Nothing there about asking for forgiveness from God. Nowhere in the bible does God asks us to ask for forgiveness before we are forgiven...we are only meant to change our mind - he forgives - then does the rest of the changing for you.

[SpiritPsalmist]

Romans 7 and 8 are good. If we allow God to use us like puppets (by walking in the spirit) then we are able to fulfill the commandments through Christ. I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying - it's probably my fault.



Aaaah I think this is were we are crossing paths ;) Yeh I don't believe Christians can continue to sin - no!



Well it actually isn't. When we repent we are obviously sorry but we don't have to ASK for forgiveness though. We are only to repent.

According to 'lexicon's concordance'

Result of search for "repent":


3338 metamellomai met-am-el'-lom-ahee from 3326 and the middle voice of 3199; to care afterwards, i.e. regret:--repent (self). 3340 metanoeo met-an-o-eh'-o from 3326 and 3539; to think differently or afterwards, i.e. reconsider (morally, feel compunction):--repent.

Nothing there about asking for forgiveness from God. Nowhere in the bible does God asks us to ask for forgiveness before we are forgiven...we are only meant to change our mind - he forgives - then does the rest of the changing for you.

I agree. We don't HAVE to ask forgiveness. Where there is true repentance, which involves turning toward God and away from the sin, there is forgiveness...it's a given :)

[Godzchild]

I think us begging for forgiveness all the time (which, mind you, one would have to be in a constant state of asking forgiveness all day long ;) ) brings condemnation and I believe that people feel that unless they sit and beg God's forgiveness that they won't be forgiven. But that's not what the bible says.

Anyhow...I think it's time to share my story. The thing is, I didn't just wake up one morning and think "Well I don't want to obey God anymore so I'm going to believe this 'once saved always saved' thing so that I can do what I like" It wasn't like that. And if this is the impression that some people give...all that I can say about that it is incorrect.

The reason I came to this conclusion is based on the life I led and what 'Once saved always striving to remain saved' belief led me was to death. I almost died because of it. And slowly but surely God taught me his grace and what it actually meant. What salvation actually is. And he taught me that eternal life is really eternal - and that he didn't make a mistake in saving me. That saved my life - LITERALLY!

So Quaffer could you please direct me to the 'journal' making thing? I'm still trying to learn the ropes with all the goodies on this forum and I haven't quite worked out the journal thing. Once I've done that - I will direct the two of you to my story. :)

[SpiritPsalmist]

I think us begging for forgiveness all the time (which, mind you, one would have to be in a constant state of asking forgiveness all day long ;) ) brings condemnation and I believe that people feel that unless they sit and beg God's forgiveness that they won't be forgiven. But that's not what the bible says.

I agree!


So Quaffer could you please direct me to the 'journal' making thing? I'm still trying to learn the ropes with all the goodies on this forum and I haven't quite worked out the journal thing. Once I've done that - I will direct the two of you to my story. :)

Click here: http://www.christianforums.com/f149-christian-journals.html

Then click on New Topic which will become your journal.

[Godzchild]

Thanks :)

[Godzchild]

Done - will have to start from the bottom and work up though ;) The reason why God's grace is so important.

[holo]

It's hard to walk when you're on your knees all time. Of course, if you don't walk with a humble heart, you need to see more of God's goodness. But we were never meant to whip ourselves all day and be afraid of backsliding and all.
Neither do I think we are supposed to know the Lord through dictionaries and foreign languages like Greek. God speaks all languages and even understands tongues.

God is, more than anything, my Father. Much more so than He is my judge, employer, teacher, crutch, you name it.

[SpiritPsalmist]

It's hard to walk when you're on your knees all time. Of course, if you don't walk with a humble heart, you need to see more of God's goodness. But we were never meant to whip ourselves all day and be afraid of backsliding and all.
Neither do I think we are supposed to know the Lord through dictionaries and foreign languages like Greek. God speaks all languages and even understands tongues.

God is, more than anything, my Father. Much more so than He is my judge, employer, teacher, crutch, you name it.

Well said holo. I believe we can walk in confidence that we are cherished by God and held on to tightly. Getting out of His grasp, if that's possible, does not happen easily.

[deu58]

Hi holo

Neither do I think we are supposed to know the Lord through dictionaries and foreign languages like Greek. God speaks all languages and even understands tongues.

God is, more than anything, my Father. Much more so than He is my judge, employer, teacher, crutch, you name it.

You know I never looked up one word in a greek or hebrew dictionary until I came to C/F, Seems like every body here from 10 years old and up is or needs to be a lingustics expert!!

I was raised to have a simple faith, That the bible was written for simple people, Granted there are many deep things in the bible but all the good stuff necessary for salvation is really pretty plain and simple,

And all the words I have had to look up because somebody said "you need a proper understanding of this word", it seems to me the translators already did a pretty thorough job of translating already anyhow! Maybe not 100% perfect, I am sure that there are some errors here and there in translating, In fact I know there are, But there are no errors that endanger a persons salvation,

Yours in Christ
deu 58

[Lynn73]

I was raised to have a simple faith, That the bible was written for simple people, Granted there are many deep things in the bible but all the good stuff necessary for salvation is really pretty plain and simple,

I agree. I trust what I have in my hands to be God's word that He was able to preserve for me. Do I really need to know Hebrew and Greek and all that to understand it. I don't have all that knowledge, I just have the Bible. Perhaps that's a simplistic view but, that's me.

[TreeOfLife]

I agree that the message of Grace is so simple that only a Jew or a Gentile could miss it. ;)

But there are those of us that God Himself has given a seemingly unquenchable desire to go deeper and deeper into the word. This desire most often leads to things like a Strong's Concordance and a Vines Expository Dictionary. There is nothing wrong with that either. :thumbsup:

[Godzchild]

I was brought up to have simple faith too but sometimes it's necessary to look up words otherwise you will believe words mean what everybody else thinks they mean...like repentence meaning 'asking God forgiveness' and not 'change mind'. A simple look up in a concordance can change the whole meaning and set you free sometimes. But generally the bible is translated pretty well :)

[Entertaining_Angels]

I really believe God does lead some people to dig deeper into Scriptures. I've never had even the faintest desire to do so until the last year. I really feel God is leading me deeper. I really desire to know the Scriptures in context including the understanding of cultural and social norms of the time which also changes context.

[Godzchild]

I think as we mature, spiritually, God leads us to a deeper understand but when He thinks we are able to handle it.

[Entertaining_Angels]

I think as we mature, spiritually, God leads us to a deeper understand but when He thinks we are able to handle it.

I agree completely. Although, must admit, I haven't felt ready but God does know what He's doing and I'm pretty amazed by what He is doing in my life.

[Godzchild]

I don't think I've felt ready either...it just happens. God has a way of revealing just that itsy teeny tiny bit...and to us that's HUUUUUUUGE LOL

[ronmathison]

Christians are a new creation. God writes His law on our hearts. Jesus speaks of a living water welling up to eternal life. If one has eternal life, how long will it last? Will it not last forever?

[TreeOfLife]

Christians are a new creation. God writes His law on our hearts. Jesus speaks of a living water welling up to eternal life. If one has eternal life, how long will it last? Will it not last forever?

Good point.

[The Lord is my banner]

Yes, eternal life is forever! That's good news. I needed some of that today.

[Lynn73]

Evidently eternal doesn't really mean eternal to some. :scratch: :scratch: If I have to help get myself to heaven, then I may as well give up hope, that's all I can say. I'll never be good enough.

[TreeOfLife]

Sue and Lynn, there is no better news!


Gospel, Gut Spiel, Good message.

The Gospel is a "Good Message".

ToL

[aggie03]

Christians are a new creation. God writes His law on our hearts. Jesus speaks of a living water welling up to eternal life. If one has eternal life, how long will it last? Will it not last forever?

When does one receive eternal life?

[Godzchild]

On belief!

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believe in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3: 16)

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10: 9,10)

These verses and many other in the Word of God show us that anyone who, by faith, received Jesus Christ as Saviour has eternal life immediately. The Apostle John tells us that his Gospel was written, "that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through His name." (John 20:31)

Those who believe have eternal salvation. Jesus Himself said: "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

I believe it!

[Santo]

Let's take this situation for an example...



Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.



He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.



So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?



"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."



What will happen?

The answer to this question should be very simple, but some tend to make it complicated because of their lack of true biblical understanding and just plain logic.

Coming to the true knowledge of god and Christ and them claiming that you no longer believe is like seeing the light with your eyes and then trying to say that you have never seen light. The truth of knowing god is ALWAYS TRUE and it’s permanent, you can not reject it. The only way that someone can say that they have never seen the light IS if they actually HAVE NEVER SEEN the light. Therefore those that do not believe in jesus have never truly believed from the start. They have NO IDEA of who he is otherwise they would have never left him, showing that their claim was never real. (1 John 2:19)

Therefore it is my understanding that if a person claims to have known jesus and now claims that there is no jesus is like me saying that I owned a genuine seven hundred dollar bill at one time, but now I realize that there has never been a seven hundred dollar bill, making me a liar.

[TreeOfLife]

[color=black]

The answer to this question should be very simple, but some tend to make it complicated because of their lack of true biblical understanding and just plain logic.

Coming to the true knowledge of god and Christ and them claiming that you no longer believe is like seeing the light with your eyes and then trying to say that you have never seen light. The truth of knowing god is ALWAYS TRUE and it’s permanent, you can not reject it. The only way that someone can say that they have never seen the light IS if they actually HAVE NEVER SEEN the light. Therefore those that do not believe in jesus have never truly believed from the start. They have NO IDEA of who he is otherwise they would have never left him, showing that their claim was never real. (1 John 2:19)

Therefore it is my understanding that if a person claims to have known jesus and now claims that there is no jesus is like me saying that I owned a genuine seven hundred dollar bill at one time, but now I realize that there has never been a seven hundred dollar bill, making me a liar.

That was actually quite excellent. Not only does it jive perfectly with scripture, but it has been my experience too. Once a butterfly is a butterfly, it never goes back to being a catapillar. It might want to, and I guess it could try with everything it has, but once a butterfly, always a butterfly.

(I do have to admit though, being a guy, I sure wish I had a better analogy! ^_^ )

[Godzchild]

A moth? A fly wanting to go back to a maggot? ROFL!!

[deu58]

Hi Treeoflife

That was actually quite excellent. Not only does it jive perfectly with scripture, but it has been my experience too. Once a butterfly is a butterfly, it never goes back to being a catapillar. It might want to, and I guess it could try with everything it has, but once a butterfly, always a butterfly.

(I do have to admit though, being a guy, I sure wish I had a better analogy! ^_^ )

It is not physically possible for a butterfly to return to being a catapillar,
Maybe that is why The bible refers to them as dogs who return to there own vomit??? ;)

yours in Christ
deu 58

[ffman]

Let's take this situation for an example...

Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.

He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.

So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?

"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."

What will happen?

I may be wrong, but in my opinion, yes. The man may have been saved, yet he lost his faith in God and Christ.

[SoaringEagle]

Good point about the butterfly never being able to be a caterpillar again. When we as believers become a new creation through the metamorphisis of new birth, we become a New Man. We become a child of God. We are assured of heaven, are are eternally secure, but a child of God can commit apostasy and commit the sin of death. This is not backslidding or failing to put of the deeds of the old man. Nor is it failing to mature and rise up out of carnality. This is rejecting jesus as Lord, deliberately and willfully sinning and saying things like, the bible really isn't true. Jesus isn't real, this is renouncing Christ. Once this happens, you can never be brought back to repentance. There is no hope for this one. So you are eternally secure, but can commit apostacy.

[Godzchild]

Why would a child of God reject Christ? Maybe someone who was PRETENDING to be a child of God - yes. But maybe a caterpillar that has constructed a pair of false wings and stapped them to his back to make him look like a butterfly - professed that he was a butterfly could reject Christ - sure. But a butterfly cannot go back to being a caterpillar as they are unable to change their DNA.

Are we as Christians able to change our DNA?

[TreeOfLife]

Why would a child of God reject Christ? Maybe someone who was PRETENDING to be a child of God - yes. But maybe a caterpillar that has constructed a pair of false wings and stapped them to his back to make him look like a butterfly - professed that he was a butterfly could reject Christ - sure. But a butterfly cannot go back to being a caterpillar as they are unable to change their DNA.

Are we as Christians able to change our DNA?

The "strap on wings" analogy was great. :)

Do you mind if I use it for a short story?

[Lynn73]

Hi Treeoflife



It is not physically possible for a butterfly to return to being a catapillar,
Maybe that is why The bible refers to them as dogs who return to there own vomit??? ;)

yours in Christ
deu 58

Exactly. Dogs, not sheep of Christ. They were never born again or changed, otherwise they wouldn't be referred to as dogs. Jesus calls His own sheep,not dogs.

[Galatians513]

My opinion is that while salvation cannot be lost, it can be forfeited. If the basis of our salvation is "faith" and "belief" and one chooses to walk away or stop believing, he or she has lost the only tie we have to God.

I have believed this for a long time. If I am incorrect please post scriptures. Just wanna make sure I am on the right track with this one. :-)

[deu58]

Hi Lynn

Exactly. Dogs, not sheep of Christ. They were never born again or changed, otherwise they wouldn't be referred to as dogs. Jesus calls His own sheep,not dogs.

Thanks for adding that point, I never really looked at it from that persepective but you are right,:wave:

[Lynn73]

I heard it explained that way, probably in a book I was reading, and it made sense to me. These were people that may have been temporarily enlightened and listened to the truth for awhile but they ultimately rejected it and returned to their old ways. Some of these Scriptures people use to make us think we can lose salvation are being misinterpeted just like this one imho.

[deu58]

Hi Lynn

I heard it explained that way, probably in a book I was reading, and it made sense to me. These were people that may have been temporarily enlightened and listened to the truth for awhile but they ultimately rejected it and returned to their old ways. Some of these Scriptures people use to make us think we can lose salvation are being misinterpeted just like this one imho.

Actually it fits with descriptions in the parable of the sower and the wheat and tares so I am convinced that you are correct, We can not know the heart of the individual believer but God does,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[holo]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

[TreeOfLife]

My opinion is that while salvation cannot be lost, it can be forfeited. If the basis of our salvation is "faith" and "belief" and one chooses to walk away or stop believing, he or she has lost the only tie we have to God.

I have believed this for a long time. If I am incorrect please post scriptures. Just wanna make sure I am on the right track with this one. :-)

The problem with it is that the basis of our salvation is not "faith" nor "belief", but the finished work of Jesus. If you have been saved your subsequent doubt or falling away is wholly incapable of reversing the finished work of the Lord God Almighty.

Every child you ever birth into this world will forever have your DNA signature within it. Every ounce of prideful self will that child can muster up in it's arrogance can never alter that one fact. :)

[deu58]

Hi Holo

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

Yeah I saw that to, I would have to look at the writings and the context that luther was using this statement in,

Luther also thought that killing jews was good idea to, Me personally if a man was murdering a thousand people a day and claiming to be a Christian I would have to doubt his claim,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[Godzchild]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

That statement would be incorrect because a true child of God would not murder 1000 times a day anyway so the point is moot.

[aggie03]

That statement would be incorrect because a true child of God would not murder 1000 times a day anyway so the point is moot.
The point is not moot. If one can never fall from grace, then what Luther said is true. I have heard baptist preachers say that you can commit murder, as often as you like, and still go to heaven. Apparently, it's not a moot point.

However, it does bring into the light the strangeness of this idea of OSAS. It just doesn't make sense...of course that may be my human limitations, but the Scriptures do certainly seem to point in the other direction.

[SavannahSage]

My view on this tends to be a bit different from some on this forum. I personally believed that once you are truly saved, that is it, you are saved. I have a family member who was 'saved' in a word of faith church. She spoke in tongues, got herself slain in the ol' Spirit when she could, so on and so forth. She is now living with her boyfriend, doesn't go to church anymore and 'religion' is no longer a part of her life. This perplexes some in my family. I just don't feel she ever became saved in the first place. I think she had a pseudo-salvation and never really understood true salvation and a true relationship with God. Sure, she lived a 'good' life by her definition, went to church, had all these signs and gifts from 'god' and she would have adamently told you then she was saved. That was her 'salvation' and not from God.

Having been hijacked into false beliefs and teachings, I think this is very common. If you are truly walking with God, you won't desert Him and He certainly will not desert you.

The analogy I always use is that you can go sit your little self in a henhouse all day. Cluck til your little heart is content, peck and scratch at the soil. Hey you can even consume some bugs if that is your heart's delight but that doesn't make you poultry. That's all superficial stuff. What matters is what is internal.

God bless.

Out of all the posts that I've read on this site, this one sums it up in a nutshell. This describes my past walk with the Lord. All fluff and no substance :sigh:

[aggie03]

Other human beings are not able to make judgments about who is saved and who is not. We cannot talk about those who are "really saved" or "not really saved".

How can we know the spirit of another man? They must tell us. If someone claims to believe in God, and, then, later leaves, they have fallen away. It's really quite simple.

[romans6and6]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?


I don't know about the above quote, but Luther did say this:

"Pecca fortiter sed crede fortius....Sin as you like provided you believe."

John Calvin also said in his "Institutes of Christian Religion:

"We maintain, therefore, that sin always exists in the saints, till they are divested of the mortal body...."

He also said:
But we maintain, according to the doctrine of the Scripture, the only standard of righteousness and sin, that the 'wages of sin is death,' and 'the soul that sinneth, it shall die;' but that the sins of believers are veniel [not causing death of the soul]..."

However, the Scriptures tell us a different story:

"The wages of sin is death..." (Romans 6:23)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezekiel 18:4)

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shall not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (Genesis 2:17)

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know that he which converts the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20)

"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lusts, and enticed.
Then when lust is conceived , it brings for sin: and sin, when it it finished, brings forth death." (James 1:14-15)

Everytime "believe" is used in the Bible as pertaining to eternal life, it is always used in the present tense. One has to continue to believe to possess eternal life. It is not a "one time believing" when you made a "decision" to follow Christ. It is a continual believing and abiding in Him.

The devil told Adam and Eve that "Ye shall not surely die." But in the day that they ate of the fruit, they died spiritually and acquired a sinful and depraved nature.

God was right. The Scriptures are right. Do not listen to those who will tell you that a child of God can still commit the "works of the flesh" and still be saved. Paul said that if "ye do such things, ye shall not inherit the kingdom of God, (Galatians 5:21), and that "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9)"

[Shiversblood]

I believe that anyone who is saved also can fall and no longer be saved. Your still human after you become saved, and can fall back into any sins old or new. You don't have to go back in time and try and say they were never saved in the first place, cuz a lot of people are truly saved, but something goes wrong, or they just eventually give up on rightousness. There are men in prison who were once very devout Christians but now they are serving long sentences. Anyone can go back from anything, its possible, and it happens.

[IamRedeemed]

:thumbsup::amen:

And I would just like to add a comment and few more Scriptures for the OP to consider.

No one "loses" their salvation like a set of car keys. It doesn't happen overnight. But we certainly don't want to die in a prodigal state. The Scripture is clear that one most certainly can forsake the way and forfeit their inheritance.

A note to bear in mind always for future reference: We should always beware of folks who attempt to give an answer to Biblical questions such as the OPs, especially in dealing with essential and eternal matters such as this who start with "to me, it's like this", or "for me, it is like that" etc.
As the Lord has not left these matters to anyone's private interpretation.


Jude 1:3-6
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, ifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.




I submit to you the following scriptures to consider:
1. Luke 15 "Lost Sheep" "Lost Coin" "Lost Boy" "Older Brother" Considering the "lost sheep" Jesus said, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep." Then there is a lot of "rejoicing." Why??

2. James 5:19 This verse addresses "brothers." We are told if he "wanders from the truth, and is brought back, a soul has been saved from death.

3. 2 Peter 2:20-22 Here are some who have "escaped the pollutions of the world through Jesus Christ, but are again entangled therein." Because they are overcome "they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning."

Scripture does teach that a person can be saved and so sin as to lose their soul. God says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you - unless, of course, you fail the test." (2 Cor. 13:5)

The lost sheep of Luke 15:1ff "wandered off." God does not forsake us, but we can forsake him.

[MarkEvan]

How the heck did this thread get resurected from 2005?

[aggie03]

As the Lord has not left these matters to anyone's private interpretation.

Excellent point.

I agree with you that this is not an overnight process. It is something that happens so gradually that it is almost always imperceptible until it has become a serious problem.

It's just like a lamb wandering away from its shepherd. It doesn't get lost quickly, but one step at a time it slowly wanders away from the flock...

[aggie03]

How the heck did this thread get resurected from 2005?

The good ones always come back to life :)

[IamRedeemed]

Excellent point.

I agree with you that this is not an overnight process. It is something that happens so gradually that it is almost always imperceptible until it has become a serious problem.

It's just like a lamb wandering away from its shepherd. It doesn't get lost quickly, but one step at a time it slowly wanders away from the flock...

Amen! That is a good analogy! :thumbsup:

The good ones always come back to life :)

LOL! Amen again! Took the words right out of my mouth! ^_^

[DArceri]

And I would just like to add a comment and few more Scriptures for the OP to consider.
I'm not the OP, however I thought I'd humbly respond with a few 'scriptural' thoughts:

No one "loses" their salvation like a set of car keys. It doesn't happen overnight. But we certainly don't want to die in a prodigal state. The Scripture is clear that one most certainly can forsake the way and forfeit their inheritance. Not if you are one of His 'lost sheep'. Jesus states He came for His lost sheep and He loses none of them that the Father has given Him.

"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one."


Jude 1:3-6
Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
I don't see anything here that suggest one will lose his salvation. All that is stated is a warning against decievers of the faith who may make one, at best, stumble. If one is truly CALLED, he is then KEPT.

Notice verses 1 and 2, the verses ahead of the ones you quoted:
1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, To those who are called, beloved in God the Father and kept for Jesus Christ:
2May mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.


Hebrews 3:12-14
Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, ifwe hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end;

The key words here are:
"lest there be any of you an evil heart of unbelief"....

Again, there is nothing here that would suggest a loss of salvation. Here it is just stating that those who have an 'evil heart of unbelief' are ungenuine believers (ie. false christians)......Just professing that you are a christian is not going to fool God. Remember, there are those who do good works 'just to be seen' or for other selfish reasons or motives. God sees right through all that:

Mt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'


Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Again, nothing here...... Hebrews was written to JEWISH believers who were still following Jewish rituals and tradition. By continuing in their Jewish rituals and traditions, they were commiting a serious sin. Everytime they practiced animal sacrifices and other sacrificial rituals, they were saying in effect, Jesus death on the cross was not enough. Paul is reminding them about the 'blood of the cross' and to stop there old rituals before their hearts are hardened.

.... BOTTOM LINE, those who turned away from there old Jewish rituals were the genuine christian believers, and those who fell away never really fully accepted the CROSS, ie. NO FAITH in the fullness of the Cross to begin with.


Hebrews 12:25-29
See that you refuse not him that speaks. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaks from heaven: Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he has promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. And this word, Yet once more, signifies the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.


Again...same as previous response above....Verse proves nothing.

[DArceri]

How can we know the spirit of another man? They must tell us. If someone claims to believe in God, and, then, later leaves, they have fallen away. It's really quite simple.

Are you suggesting just because one 'professes' to be a believer, that makes him one? :scratch:

[ReformedChapin]

great posts darceri

[ReformedChapin]

Excellent point.

I agree with you that this is not an overnight process. It is something that happens so gradually that it is almost always imperceptible until it has become a serious problem.

It's just like a lamb wandering away from its shepherd. It doesn't get lost quickly, but one step at a time it slowly wanders away from the flock...
Wrong scripture makes it more than clear...

A lamb with true faith, will always come back to the sheppard. God will not let one get lost.


9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice with God? Absolutely not! 9:15 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=15) For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 29 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n29) 9:16 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=16) So then, 30 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n30) it does not depend on human desire or exertion, 31 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n31) but on God who shows mercy. 9:17 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=17) For the scripture says to Pharaoh: 32 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n32) “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may demonstrate my power in you, and that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 33 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n33) 9:18 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=18) So then, 34 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n34) God 35 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n35) has mercy on whom he chooses to have mercy, and he hardens whom he chooses to harden. 36 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n36) Salvation does not depend on mans will but on God's grace alone. That's why scripture says that salvation is not of us but God.


9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who has ever resisted his will?” 9:20 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=20) But who indeed are you – a mere human being 37 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n37) – to talk back to God? 38 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n38)
Paul makes it more than clear that even through our bondage of our will through God's will we are still sinful and God can do with us as he pleases. He is more than blunt. And we have no right to blame him for his sovereign predestination for the reprobate for destruction.



Does what is molded say to the molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 39 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n39) 9:21 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=21) Has the potter no right to make from the same lump of clay 40 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n40) one vessel for special use and another for ordinary use? 41 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n41) 9:22 (http://net.bible.org/verse.php?book=Rom&chapter=9&verse=22) But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects 42 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n42) of wrath 43 (http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=romans&chapter=9#n43) prepared for destruction?

God can demonstrate his power or grace to whomever he should like. Even in bondage, the Potter (God) can do as he pleases with us.

[ReformedChapin]

I noticed in som other thread, an argument/thesis brought up, apparently penned by Luther.

It goes something like "I can murder 1000 times a day and still be saved."
So, true or false? It comes down to how we're saved to begin with; if it's by grace only, the answer is "true". If it's not only of grace, the answer would be "no", correct?

False notion, if we are saved because God saved us a new nature that implies that our works will coincide with God's will. If our works don't coincide that implies we HAVEN'T been regenerated therefore not saved. God doesn't do 1/2 the job, he completes it all the way.

[aggie03]

False notion, if we are saved because God saved us a new nature that implies that our works will coincide with God's will. If our works don't coincide that implies we HAVEN'T been regenerated therefore not saved. God doesn't do 1/2 the job, he completes it all the way.
So if God "does it all the way", please explain why Christians still sin. To me, it seems better suited to say that you position is the false thesis. ;)

[ReformedChapin]

So if God "does it all the way", please explain why Christians still sin. To me, it seems better suited to say that you position is the false thesis. ;)
What I mean by all the way, I meant about salvation and regeneration...we still aren't perfected. Our transfiguration will occur in Christs return. He still completes 100 percent of the job.

[aggie03]

What I mean by all the way, I meant about salvation and regeneration...we still aren't perfected. Our transfiguration will occur in Christs return. He still completes 100 percent of the job.

This is why I have some issues with the Calvinistic view of Scriptures - it just doesn't add up, in my opinion, with what the Bible teaches.

For instance, if you agree to the idea of unconditional election, then there are, literally, no conditions that must be met before someone is saved. It doesn't matter if they commit a 1000 murders a day - that's not one of the stipulations of salvation.

If at any given moment I am saved, unconditionally, then at no moment after that can I loose my salvation. There are no conditions that I must keep or strive toward. The minute that we start to talk about people who are "really saved", you have started to place conditions on salvation, which I think is what the Bible teaches.

If there are conditions that are placed on salvation, then it is entirely possible for us to violate the terms of the covenant that we make with God upon becoming a Christian. Hence, it is possible for one to leave God, or wander from the fold.

[desmalia]

This is why I have some issues with the Calvinistic view of Scriptures - it just doesn't add up, in my opinion, with what the Bible teaches.Then I encourage you to study Calvinism a little more closely. It is Scriptural. :)

For instance, if you agree to the idea of unconditional election, then there are, literally, no conditions that must be met before someone is saved. Of course. Salvation is a toally undeserved gift. It is not based on our good works. It is God who moves the heart to respond to Him, not us. I don't deserve salvation any more or less than the Atheist down the road. It is His work in me that has brought me to Him. He didn't choose me because he knew I would choose Him. That would still equate to salvation being of my own work.

It doesn't matter if they commit a 1000 murders a day - that's not one of the stipulations of salvation.Now this quote was initially a response to the whole concept of works based salvation. And it's correct in that aspect. However I think it's been totally blown out of proportion in this thread. How many Christians do such a thing? NONE. Why? Because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Salvation is not just God saying "I pick you" and then abandoning us to live life alone on our own wisdom. He is in us, guiding us, sanctifying us. Justification and sanctification co-exist. You cannot have one without the other. Ever.

If at any given moment I am saved, unconditionally, then at no moment after that can I loose my salvation.Correct. We don't have the power to save ourselves any more than we have the power to remove ourselves from God's hand.

There are no conditions that I must keep or strive toward. The minute that we start to talk about people who are "really saved", you have started to place conditions on salvation, which I think is what the Bible teaches.Are you talking about fruits of the Spirit here? Because yes, a true believer does begin to strive to serve and glorify God. Our eyes are opened to the magesty that He is! And the indwelling of the Spirit leads us to seek His glory in our lives. That is a part of salvation. It's not just a key to heaven after we die. We become members of the Kingdom here and now, and that overflows in our lives. How can it not?

If there are conditions that are placed on salvation, then it is entirely possible for us to violate the terms of the covenant that we make with God upon becoming a Christian. Hence, it is possible for one to leave God, or wander from the fold.See but striving to obey God isn't a condition. It's a reaction. Huge, huge difference. Salvation is not conditional. It is a gift. Part of that gift is our regeneration.

[ReformedChapin]

This is why I have some issues with the Calvinistic view of Scriptures - it just doesn't add up, in my opinion, with what the Bible teaches.
For instance, if you agree to the idea of unconditional election, then there are, literally, no conditions that must be met before someone is saved. It doesn't matter if they commit a 1000 murders a day - that's not one of the stipulations of salvation. Yep, because what we do doesn't matter. Look at Paul, he kiled God's very own people and God made him his own Apostle.

If at any given moment I am saved, unconditionally, then at no moment after that can I loose my salvation. There are no conditions that I must keep or strive toward. The minute that we start to talk about people who are "really saved", you have started to place conditions on salvation, which I think is what the Bible teaches. God changes your nature so you strive to persue him. Remember he is in control of every action. You still think you are in control of what you do? Nope. God choose you so you can chase after him and love him! He renewed your mind!

If there are conditions that are placed on salvation, then it is entirely possible for us to violate the terms of the covenant that we make with God upon becoming a Christian. Hence, it is possible for one to leave God, or wander from the fold.
If you are speaking of LAW, remember no matter what you will always sin. You live in a sinful place and no matter how much you try not do it you will. Paul states this in Romans, "the things I dont want to do I do, and the things I do wanna do I dont do." But as regenerated believer you will always chase after God, he will be your motive for living "loving him with heart, soul and mind!"

[holo]

False notion, if we are saved because God saved us a new nature that implies that our works will coincide with God's will. If our works don't coincide that implies we HAVEN'T been regenerated therefore not saved. God doesn't do 1/2 the job, he completes it all the way.The prodigal son was still 100% his father's son, even though/when he acted like a pig and though his dad would accept him as a servant, at best. He just didn't know who he really was :)

[DArceri]

Why is salvation an undeserved gift. We are born in sin, we live in sin and some day most will die in sin. It was god's choosing not ours.
God chose to curse creation when Adam CHOSE Satan as his lord. Those who do not have Christ as there Lord is separated from His Holiness and still have Satan as there father. Salvation is called a free gift for those who recieve Christ as both Lord and Savior because He didn't have to save us. He didn't have to die for our souls, but He did suffer for us out of pure LOVE for 'HIS SHEEP', and I say sheep because there are many who will deny Him til the day they die.

[ANM29]

No, you can't fall from being saved..Impossible.....Not of works at all...But Grace......You can't fall from under the Grace of God...

[ANM29]

If anybody thinks you can lose your salvation, it is because they don't understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ... but most don't as much as they talk about it and quote scriptures...They think it is about 'works' and our fleshy attempts to get God's approval and attention. ..When you are already approved by GRACE...............alone!

[DArceri]

If anybody thinks you can lose your salvation, it is because they don't understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ... but most don't as much as they talk about it and quote scriptures...They think it is about 'works' and our fleshy attempts to get God's approval and attention. ..When you are already approved by GRACE...............alone!If God AWAKENS YOU and makes you spiritually alive, you will never become spiritually dead. AMEN

[ANM29]

If God AWAKENS YOU and makes you spiritually alive, you will never become spiritually dead. AMEN

You are preaching now...:thumbsup:

[ANM29]

I think as we mature, spiritually, God leads us to a deeper understand but when He thinks we are able to handle it.

:amen:

[Free04]

No, cause you need some scripture and HOLY SPIRIT revelation on this one. I don't plan to try to convince you or any other.....

If you seek God, in his time, he himself will reveal..

I don't plan to debate the topic at all.

I understand, I was just curious as to how you formed your theology of this doctrine and what scripture you based it on. I believe that personal revelation is a very important part of a systematic theology, but I don't believe that the Word of God is subjective.
I also believe that God is JUST.
In Him.

[ANM29]

I understand, I was just curious as to how you formed your theology of this doctrine and what scripture you based it on. I believe that personal revelation is a very important part of a systematic theology, but I don't believe that the Word of God is subjective.
I also believe that God is JUST.
In Him.

The real interesting thing is that I was never looking for this, God revealed it to me...He had been preparing me for it when I look back..I had been seeking him cos I wanted more of him, not knowing he was going to give me many things plus some.....

It is one of those things that only he can reveal, and when he does..Trust me, you can never go back to anything else..He will make sure that you know it is him, and you will know it to be true..regardless of what you previously believed..

It is just not something you can debate,..you either get it, or you don't...:) He truly loves the world..and died for it....

[desmalia]

People who claim to be followers of Christ but who are not believers? Yes, Scripture is quite plain on this.

Matthew 7 (NASB):
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

[Cris413]

thread Closed