Can you fall from being saved?

[naos]

You guys are so good at finding loopholes.:scratch:

That's ridiculous and displays an astounding lack of knowledge of who God actually is.

You appear to see God as a "good man"! Just exactly how far from the Truth is that?

No man or woman on earth is even close to being saved until they actually know God.

Why do you think we fuss?

[joyinhim]

[QUOTE=naos]That's ridiculous and displays an astounding lack of knowledge of who God actually is.

You appear to see God as a "good man"! Just exactly how far from the Truth is that?

No man or woman on earth is even close to being saved until they actually know God.

Why do you think we fuss?[

Salvation without reponsibilities?

[Godzchild]

Many times, it's not becacuse they want to join in for positive porpose they just repeating the fight. I am not intersted in this kind of arguing, nitpicking or fight.

I actually haven't seen anyone nitpicking or fighting on this particular thread. Actually I'm seeing a healthy discussion.

[naos]

Salvation without reponsibilities?

Well, of course. How could a free gift come with strings attached?

[Bottom Buzzer]

Before we are born again, we are in Adam. We have Adams nature.

When we are born again we are in Christ (the new Adam), and we got His nature.

When we are in Adam we can do good things and live correctly, but that can never change our nature. We can be nice as Mother Theresa, but we are still in Adam.

When we are in Christ we can do bad things, but that does'nt change our nature back to Adam. We are still in Christ, and we are still a part of his Kingdom.

[perpendicular_bisector]

Well, of course. How could a free gift come with strings attached?

:D

Only if you receive this gift from Cult of Rome

:D

[joyinhim]

Well, of course. How could a free gift come with strings attached?

Thank you for your honesty. I thought you were cute in that way.

But naos, I ask you a question. Where did you get this kind of salvation? From your local church? Your friend?

[Jim Woodell]

To "fall" is not the same as "falling from being saved".

What do you think you are falling from, if not salvation? (2 Pet. 1:10-11)

Also read 2 Pet. 2:20, "If they have ESCAPED THE CORRUPTION OF THE WORLD by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, THEY ARE WORSE OFF AT THE END THAN THEY WERE AT THE BEGINNING."

Also read Luke 8:4-8 and Luke 8:11-15, the parable of the sower.
1. Path - they did not believe and so were not saved.
2. Rock - they believe for a while (were they saved during this "while?") but in time of testing FALL AWAY. Fall away from what?
3. Thorns - as they go on their way that are choked by life's worries, riches and pelasures, and they do not mature.
4. Good soil - those with a noble and good heart, hear the word, RETAIN IT (put into practice what it says) and by PERSEVERING (hanging in there) produce a crop.

[deu58]

Hello Holo, Godschild an Naos

I have been reading your posts on this thread and they are all good and honest posts,

I can understsnd jims point and I think you are talking past each other, I do not think that any of you would agree that it is a good thing to go out and seek sin,

Willful sin as in "I know what God says but I do not care I am going to do it any way"

I believe that is the sin that can take us away from God,

Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?


As can be seen Jim does have a point though, There are people walking around confident that they are saved and are not,

Holo like you things in my life have just disappeared, I was an alcholic and drug addict for 22 years and lived the lifestyle to the hilt,

But not everything, God left me a few thorns to work out my own salvation with fear and trembling. he took all the big things, But he left a couple of little things behind

Both sides of this argument have extremes, Both extremes in my opinion are wrong, You can not work your way to heaven, But neither can you sit on kester and do nothing.

It is necessary to find a balance between the two, Do the things that you can and give the things you can not to God,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[Bottom Buzzer]

Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Oh Yeah, I sure do!

[Jim Woodell]

Do you realize you are judging too? We are all judging each other. Let's not fool ourselves.:scratch:

That was the point of post 154.

[joyinhim]

That was the point of post 154.

And that was my reply. If you repeat the same thing and I will repeat the same thing too. :scratch:

[naos]

Thank you for your honesty. I thought you were cute in that way.

Oh that cut to the heart. Cute?! I'm a guy! We aren't supposed to be cute! I repent! :D :D :D

But naos, I ask you a question. Where did you get this kind of salvation? From your local church? Your friend?

Studying my bible.

John 16:13
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
NKJV

All that I know, or care to know, can be found there in those 66 books. Trust God, He is. :)

[joyinhim]

Oh that cut to the heart. Cute?! I'm a guy! We aren't supposed to be cute! I repent! :D :D :D



Studying my bible.

John 16:13
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
NKJV

All that I know, or care to know, can be found there in those 66 books. Trust God, He is. :)

Are you sure you have been reading the Whole Bible? Whole New Testament?

[naos]

Are you sure you have been reading the Whole Bible? Whole New Testament?

That's cold. Don't do that.

If you are a Christian, yet you do not understand Grace, that's OK. If you do not understand it is not a charge to be held against you. We are called to Liberty. I only encourage you to find out what that means.

[joyinhim]

That's cold. Don't do that.

If you are a Christian, yet you do not understand Grace, that's OK. If you do not understand it is not a charge to be held against you. We are called to Liberty. I only encourage you to find out what that means.

I am sorry, but you seem to be reading selectively. Bcause when I became a Christian the New Testament inspired me to change my way of living and mentality right away.

[naos]

I am sorry, but you seem to be reading selectively. Bcause when I became a Christian the New Testament inspired me to change my way of living and mentality right away.

Well then that's the difference. The Living God changed me through not one filthy effort of my own.

[joyinhim]

Well then that's the difference. The Living God changed me through not one filthy effort of my own.

You make it sound like you don't have to do anything to change. Of course we have to ask God to help us to change, but still we have to do our part, you know.:(

[Godzchild]

You make it sound like you don't have to do anything to change. Of course we have to ask God to help us to change, but still we have to do our part, you know.

Our part is to believe in Jesus. He does the changing.

[Godzchild]

Willful sin as in "I know what God says but I do not care I am going to do it any way"

I believe that is the sin that can take us away from God,


If a child of God did that, the HOly Spirit would bring them to repentence..and a child of God would repent. If they dont' repent then they are not a child of God. NOTHING can take a truel child of God away from God.

[Godzchild]

Galatians 3 Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Have ye suffered so many things in vain? If it be yet in vain.



For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the bood of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith:



But the scripture hath concluded ALL UNDER SIN, that the promise BY FAITH of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.



Wherefore the law was our school master to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, WE ARE NO LONGER UNDER A SCHOOL MASTER.



Galatians 4 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying Abba Father. Wherefore thou art NO MORE A SERVANT but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.



But now after that ye have known God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?



Galatians 5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.



Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from Grace.





Ephesians 1 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.



Ephesians 2 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

[aggie03]

If a child of God did that, the HOly Spirit would bring them to repentence..and a child of God would repent. If they dont' repent then they are not a child of God. NOTHING can take a truel child of God away from God.

This is not true, at least I have never seen anyone able to prove it. Can you find a place in the New Testament where it ever says that someone who became a Christian but later left "wasn't really a Christian"?

I have been looking for such a passage for quite some time and have not been able to find it. Please, I would like to see something that teaches this explictly.

[Godzchild]

This is not true, at least I have never seen anyone able to prove it. Can you find a place in the New Testament where it ever says that someone who became a Christian but later left "wasn't really a Christian"?

I have been looking for such a passage for quite some time and have not been able to find it. Please, I would like to see something that teaches this explictly.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Also there are passages that talk about the Lord's sheep not able to be plucked out of the father's hand. And for his children being kept by the power of the Lord.

"Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (I Pet. 1:5)

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philip. 1:6)

I know that I'm going to Heaven because GOD is preserving me. I'm not preserving my own Salvation. I wasn't saved by my good works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:5), so I do not STAY saved by my good works. I am KEPT by the POWER OF GOD, not by my own power! God is able to keep me from falling (Jude 24), because I'm HIS child and I'm in the palm of HIS hand (Jn. 10:28-29). Ephesians 4:30 says that I have been SEALED by the Holy Spirit of God until the day of redemption! I'm not worried about losing my Salvation. I KNOW I'm going to Heaven because I'm being preserved by God's power.

[naos]

Excellent posts Godzchild. :thumbsup:

[deu58]

hi all


1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

This is reflected in the teaching of Jesus himself,

Mt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The operative word here being NEVER. he never knew them, They did not lose their Salvation, They never had it in the first place, You can not lose what you never had, True repentance brings true salvation. Which you can not lose,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[naos]

Rom 8:37-39
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

Notice that "created things" are included in this list of things that cannot separate us from God.

We are created things. :)

[deu58]

Hello Naos
Rom 8:37-39
37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us. 38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NKJV

Notice that "created things" are included in this list of things that cannot separate us from God.

We are created things. :)

Yes but what else needs to be remembered is that we are created beings born separated from God, We need to make a consious free will choice somewhere in our lives to be reunited with him through his son or else we spend our whole lives and then die separated from him,

yours in Christ
deu 58:wave:

[naos]

Hello Naos


Yes but what else needs to be remembered is that we are created beings born separated from God, We need to make a consious free will choice somewhere in our lives to be reunited with him through his son or else we spend our whole lives and then die separated from him,

yours in Christ
deu 58:wave:

Freewill is an illusion.

[deu58]

Hi Naos

Freewill is an illusion.

No I do not think so, It is just that the choices are limited, For instance when I walked in the world I knew and believed in God, But I did not like him.

He seemed a tryant to me, My attitude was i did want to to serve God or Satan. Just leave me alone and go play your silly game and fight your war someplace else,

I just wanted to go the way of the dog and the cat, Fall in a hole and be done with it,

Not an option, We have freewill but we are given only two choices, Not three,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[naos]

Hi Naos



No I do not think so, It is just that the choices are limited, For instance when I walked in the world I knew and believed in God, But I did not like him.

He seemed a tryant to me, My attitude was i did want to to serve God or Satan. Just leave me alone and go play your silly game and fight your war someplace else,

I just wanted to go the way of the dog and the cat, Fall in a hole and be done with it,

Not an option, We have freewill but we are given only two choices, Not three,

yours in Christ
deu 58

Somebody once said "you gotta serve somebody". Bob got that one right.

Rom 6:15-20
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
NKJV


Freewill is a construct and byproduct of being an intellegent being, as opposed to animals that run on pure instinct.

Freewill is a smokescreen for pride.

[Jim Woodell]

Freewill is an illusion.

Jesus' very invitation, "Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden..." indicates a choice. The rich ruler made a choice when he chose riches over the kingdom of God. "Enter the strait gate..." is another invitation to make a choice. The wide gate and broad way leads to destruction, so we can choose either the narrow way or the broad way, a choice.

Freewill is not an illusion, it is a fact.

[deu58]

NKJV


Freewill is a construct and byproduct of being an intellegent being, as opposed to animals that run on pure instinct.

Freewill is a smokescreen for pride.

Again no I do not think so, I think it is our own man created socitey that has really created the illusion of no free will, Most people are trapped by family responsibities and the 40 hour week, Wage slaves, Low income, suffering.

That is all created by man. Not God

Same grind day in day out, Life can lose its flavor and what should be blessings become burdens,

As for me, I am incredibly blessed, I am a US Merchant seaman, I work when I want to work, I make excellent money, I enjoy my job, It is the best job in the whole world and I work in the US fleet which is the best fleet in whole world, I can live anywhere in the world I want to live,

Today I live in the Philippines, I have so many freewill choices I do not know what to do with them all, I accepted Christ and now all my freewill choices center around him,

My wife and I choose to start a ministry here in PI, Nobody twisted our arms, No body is forcing us to live here in PI, We have talked about moving but we both really like it here, My wife is a Filipina,

I am fortunate in that I am in a position to recognize my choices, I have many more choices than the average person, That is because I live outside the normal world of so called civilized society, And what a blessing THAT is!!!

My wife and I could not find a church we liked, So we started our own. God has blessed our little church in many ways, We have many people interested in what we are teaching, What do we teach? The gospel of Jesus Christ,

We have stripped away as many of the man made rules and regs as possible
I an sure we are not perfect, We do not pretend to be,

Me being an ex Greek Byzantine Catholic and my wife a strict SDA we were choking on man made rules, doctrines and legalisms, What a breath of fresh air we experianced when we used our God given free will to break out of these opressive systems, I had all ready left the Catholic church long before I met my wife but I was very heavy into Baptists protestant thinking,

And it probably still shows,

In our church everybody participates and we learn together, We encourage any one to search what we say and if they disagree to bring it to our attention during the service or any other time, After all, We could be wrong,

Any member of the church can give the lesson or the sermon, After we finish we have open discussion and debate to see if these things are true,

All because of freewill, This is what we chose to do, Free will is beautiful thing, A great gift from our father,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[deu58]

Hello Jim
Jesus' very invitation, "Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden..." indicates a choice. The rich ruler made a choice when he chose riches over the kingdom of God. "Enter the strait gate..." is another invitation to make a choice. The wide gate and broad way leads to destruction, so we can choose either the narrow way or the broad way, a choice.

Freewill is not an illusion, it is a fact.

Well said and true, The thing that scares people about freewill is that we are responsible for the choices we make, God is not the master of puppets,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[joyinhim]

Again no I do not think so, I think it is our own man created socitey that has really created the illusion of no free will, Most people are trapped by family responsibities and the 40 hour week, Wage slaves, Low income, suffering.

That is all created by man. Not God

Same grind day in day out, Life can lose its flavor and what should be blessings become burdens,

As for me, I am incredibly blessed, I am a US Merchant seaman, I work when I want to work, I make excellent money, I enjoy my job, It is the best job in the whole world and I work in the US fleet which is the best fleet in whole world, I can live anywhere in the world I want to live,

Today I live in the Philippines, I have so many freewill choices I do not know what to do with them all, I accepted Christ and now all my freewill choices center around him,

My wife and I choose to start a ministry here in PI, Nobody twisted our arms, No body is forcing us to live here in PI, We have talked about moving but we both really like it here, My wife is a Filipina,

I am fortunate in that I am in a position to recognize my choices, I have many more choices than the average person, That is because I live outside the normal world of so called civilized society, And what a blessing THAT is!!!

My wife and I could not find a church we liked, So we started our own. God has blessed our little church in many ways, We have many people interested in what we are teaching, What do we teach? The gospel of Jesus Christ,

We have stripped away as many of the man made rules and regs as possible
I an sure we are not perfect, We do not pretend to be,

Me being an ex Greek Byzantine Catholic and my wife a strict SDA we were choking on man made rules, doctrines and legalisms, What a breath of fresh air we experianced when we used our God given free will to break out of these opressive systems, I had all ready left the Catholic church long before I met my wife but I was very heavy into Baptists protestant thinking,

And it probably still shows,

In our church everybody participates and we learn together, We encourage any one to search what we say and if they disagree to bring it to our attention during the service or any other time,

Any member of the church can give the lesson or the sermon, After we finish we have open discussion and debate to see if these things are true,

All because of freewill, This is what we chose to do, Free will is beautiful thing, A great gift from our father,

yours in Christ
deu 58

Hi deu, I don't agree with you many of your statements but you are saying something very intersting that got my attention.

I am a woman so I can not lead church but I will pursuade my son to be a pastor so I can attend my ideal church. He will not be a proffesional pastor though. He has to be a volunteer for the Lord completely.

Thank you, deu.:)

[deu58]

Hello all

Hi deu, I don't agree with you many of your statements but you are saying something very intersting that got my attention.

I am a woman so I can not lead church but I will pursuade my son to be a pastor so I can attend my ideal church. He will not be a proffesional pastor though. He has to be a volunteer for the Lord completely.

Thank you, deu.:)

I only want to clarify something, I am not a pastor, I am not qualified to be a pastor, I do not have the authority or the training to be a pastor,

I am just a simple man saved by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. Like everybody else I can only see through the glass darkly today, I have many more questions than I do answers,

I am intelligent enough to know that it is not possible for me to be right in all things,

It is my hope that someday our little church will acquire a real pastor, And when we find one we will take care of him and submit to his authority,

yours in Christ
deu 58

[naos]

Like I said, freewill is a smokescreen for human pride.

Gal 5:4-5
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV


Matt 22:13-14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen."
NKJV

[Jim Woodell]

Like I said, freewill is a smokescreen for human pride.

Gal 5:4-5
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
NKJV


Matt 22:13-14
14 For many are called, but few are chosen."
NKJV

What does your first statement have to do with the verses you have quoted?

Can you fall from something that you have never had? ("...you have fallen from grace.")

Who are the chosen? Those who chose to accept the death, burial and resurrection of Christ chose to be chosen. Christ is our salvation, if we choose to accept him. That is not pride, it is humble to admit that I must have a Savior.

Read Phil. 2:5 that instructs us to have the same mind that Christ had. What did he do? He "emptied himself" and it was by his choice. Scripture says, "He made himself nothing..." His offering was "freewill."

[naos]

What does your first statement have to do with the verses you have quoted?

Can you fall from something that you have never had? ("...you have fallen from grace.")

Who are the chosen? Those who chose to accept the death, burial and resurrection of Christ chose to be chosen. Christ is our salvation, if we choose to accept him. That is not pride, it is humble to admit that I must have a Savior.

Read Phil. 2:5 that instructs us to have the same mind that Christ had. What did he do? He "emptied himself" and it was by his choice. Scripture says, "He made himself nothing..." His offering was "freewill."

:D "Who are the chosen? Those who chose..."

You have proven my point perfectly. Thank you so much.

[Jim Woodell]

:D "Who are the chosen? Those who chose..."

You have proven my point perfectly. Thank you so much.


Like I said, freewill is a smokescreen for human pride.



I am glad to prove your point perfectly, "The chosen are those who choose to chosen." That is what the Bible teaches, SO how is "freewill a smokescreen for human pride?"

[naos]

I am glad to prove your point perfectly, "The chosen are those who choose to chosen." That is what the Bible teaches, SO how is "freewill a smokescreen for human pride?"

The bible doesn't teach that in anyway. If your life as a Christian has devolved to nothing but eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, no worries. You are still saved. You didn't save yourself in the first place.

But if you really want to walk with God in the Kingdom now, perhaps a little reality and humility is in order.

Trusting in God is the only thing. Everything else is pride.

[joyinhim]

Hey naos, what happened to holo?

[Godzchild]

I find this "free will is an illusion" very interesting. Not saying I agree with it or not agree with it.

What I find interesting is that we have been predestined since before the foundations of the world. I've always thought that it was a matter of WHEN we came to christ rather than IF. Because it seems that our destiny was already decided by God.

But then I think...If God is an all knowing God and he knew who was going to CHOOSE him and who were not, that it's quite possible that we have free will in this choice. Our predestination comes from God foreknowing our decision.

[Bottom Buzzer]

Hey naos, what happened to holo?

Don't worry! Holo will be back from the wilderness during the weekend.

[naos]

Hey naos, what happened to holo?

I don't know. I noticed that he abruptly stopped posting too though. Maybe he's gone on holiday or something.

[naos]

I find this "free will is an illusion" very interesting. Not saying I agree with it or not agree with it.

What I find interesting is that we have been predestined since before the foundations of the world. I've always thought that it was a matter of WHEN we came to christ rather than IF. Because it seems that our destiny was already decided by God.

But then I think...If God is an all knowing God and he knew who was going to CHOOSE him and who were not, that it's quite possible that we have free will in this choice. Our predestination comes from God foreknowing our decision.

Yes, it can be a mind blower to consider that God chose us of His own volition, but at least ponder the possibility.

I know when I think on it I do this before the Lord in praise, adoration and thanksgiving...:bow:

[Jim Woodell]

Yes, it can be a mind blower to consider that God chose us of His own volition, but at least ponder the possibility.

I know when I think on it I do this before the Lord in praise, adoration and thanksgiving...:bow:

I would guess you are not robotic in your praise, adoration and thanksgiving. You choose to do this.

It is true that God chose us to be saved "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, but many will choose to reject him and walk the broad way of destruction (Matt. 7:14;2 Pet. 3:9).

[joyinhim]

Don't worry! Holo will be back from the wilderness during the weekend.

I like the way you talk.:)

By the way, Why do you put such an eery picture? That scares me.:eek:

[Bottom Buzzer]

I like the way you talk.:)

By the way, Why do you put such an eery picture? That scares me.:eek:

It is one of my charcoal drawings, and I have used it as a avatar for years in different forums. If you like you can see more of my drawings and paintings on my web-site: My Gallery

[joyinhim]

It is one of my charcoal drawings, and I have used it as a avatar for years in different forums. If you like you can see more of my drawings and paintings on my web-site: My Gallery (http://bottom-buzzer-paintings.blogspot.com/)

Thank you.:)

[TreeOfLife]

I would guess you are not robotic in your praise, adoration and thanksgiving. You choose to do this.

It is true that God chose us to be saved "in Christ" before the foundation of the world, but many will choose to reject him and walk the broad way of destruction (Matt. 7:14;2 Pet. 3:9).

Wow. What if it was all robotic, as you put it? Who are you to reply against the Maker?

That pride thing is a killer.

Charis

[Godzchild]

Yes, it can be a mind blower to consider that God chose us of His own volition, but at least ponder the possibility.

I know when I think on it I do this before the Lord in praise, adoration and thanksgiving...:bow:

Yeh I've considered the possibility but I still think we have free will. I think that God, like any loving parent, manipulates us to make the 'right' choice but it's still our choice. I don't know. We were chosen yes...but were we chosen because God knew what our decision was since before the foundation of the world?

Think about it...if our decision had been 'no' then we would not have been chosen as his sheep to begin with right? Same if we had chosen to walk away from God...God would have seen this too and not have chosen us.

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

[TreeOfLife]

Yeh I've considered the possibility but I still think we have free will. I think that God, like any loving parent, manipulates us to make the 'right' choice but it's still our choice. I don't know. We were chosen yes...but were we chosen because God knew what our decision was since before the foundation of the world?

Think about it...if our decision had been 'no' then we would not have been chosen as his sheep to begin with right? Same if we had chosen to walk away from God...God would have seen this too and not have chosen us.

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

None of my business maybe, but I think you put way too much stock in your humanity.

And I think that was the point he was trying to make.

Really, who are you, or better yet, who are we to reply against God?

Do you have a case to make against God for His own sovreign choice?

Think of the implications of the question.

Charis

[Godzchild]

None of my business maybe, but I think you put way too much stock in your humanity.

And I think that was the point he was trying to make.

Really, who are you, or better yet, who are we to reply against God?

Do you have a case to make against God for His own sovreign choice?

Think of the implications of the question.



I'm sorry, call me daft but I really don't understand your questions.

[TreeOfLife]

I'm sorry, call me daft but I really don't understand your questions.

Rom 9:18-25
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who exactly is a human that he has any reply at all against that?

Charis

[aggie03]

Yeh I've considered the possibility but I still think we have free will. I think that God, like any loving parent, manipulates us to make the 'right' choice but it's still our choice.

What exactly do you mean here?


I don't know. We were chosen yes...but were we chosen because God knew what our decision was since before the foundation of the world?

I think I agree with what you've said here. I don't believe that God arbitrarily decides that any one particular person will be saved, but rather God has chosen that a type of people will be saved. In effect, God has chosen this type of people. I believe that God has chosen to save anyone who becomes a Christian. One is not made to become a Christian, but when one does make that decision they become part of that chosen group. Does that make any sense at all to you?

Think about it...if our decision had been 'no' then we would not have been chosen as his sheep to begin with right? Same if we had chosen to walk away from God...God would have seen this too and not have chosen us.

But there are instances and warnings in the New Testament about people who had become Christians and then decided to turn their back on God. Simply because God knows that something is going to happen does not mean that judgment will be passed until it comes to pass. God knew that Uzzah was going to touch the ark, but Uzzah was not punished until he actually touched the ark. Additionally, God's anger did not burn against Uzzah until he touched the ark. I believe that we can understand that God's anger would not burn against someone who turned their back on Christ until they actually do that. Once they have done that, then, like Uzzah, they will suffer the consequences for their choices.

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

The answer to this question would have to be yes because they are not guilty of anything until they do it. I am not guilty of a crime that I might commit 30 years in the future until I have committed that crime.

[Godzchild]

Rom 9:18-25
18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Who exactly is a human that he has any reply at all against that?


I'm still not quite certain what you are saying LOL. Sorry, it's probably my fault ;) Are you saying that us being the clay and him the potter means we do not have free will? Is that what you're saying?

What exactly do you mean here?
Yeh sorry I didn't really elaborate on that did I? Well what I mean is that I believe (although I could be wrong - purely my opinion here ;) ) that God manipulates our environment so that we obey out of our own free will.


Eg: I tell my son "You need to put on your pyjamas now" <----Me being the parent, I know what's good for him.

He says "No I don't want to" <---Him being the child doesn't know what's good for him so he doesn't comply.

I then get his blue pyjamas and his red pyjamas and say "Do you want to wear your blue pj's or your red pj's". Suddenly he's thrust from the "I don't what to" mode to an "Oh I've got to make a choice" mode.

Next thing you know, he's chosen the blue ones, blue being his favourite colour, and he's actually put on his pyjamas with his own free will. Unbeknownst to him I've actually manipulated his will and he ended up complying to my command with his own free will.

Sometimes I believe that God does this with us...being the perfect parent and all ;)


I think I agree with what you've said here. I don't believe that God arbitrarily decides that any one particular person will be saved, but rather God has chosen that a type of people will be saved. In effect, God has chosen this type of people. I believe that God has chosen to save anyone who becomes a Christian. One is not made to become a Christian, but when one does make that decision they become part of that chosen group. Does that make any sense at all to you?

Yeh kinda...only he was able to forknow who was going to make the decision to become part of that chosen group since before the foundation of the world...hence you were his child from that point. Those who don't decided...he for saw that too and they were never his child.

But there are instances and warnings in the New Testament about people who had become Christians and then decided to turn their back on God. Simply because God knows that something is going to happen does not mean that judgment will be passed until it comes to pass. God knew that Uzzah was going to touch the ark, but Uzzah was not punished until he actually touched the ark. Additionally, God's anger did not burn against Uzzah until he touched the ark. I believe that we can understand that God's anger would not burn against someone who turned their back on Christ until they actually do that. Once they have done that, then, like Uzzah, they will suffer the consequences for their choices.

Yes but I believe that a true child of God, although they may fall, I dont' believe that they can fall too far that they can't come back. I believe that because they are God's children that they will be kept by the will of the Father. Does that mean they don't suffer consequences? Of course not! I've turned my back on God before but being as how I'm his child, like any loving parent, he came looking for me and manipulated the events in my life so that they became so painful that I had to come back to Christ because I knew that, in Christ, I was safe and warm.

See, I suffered the consequences while I was out...I was damned! Seriously I was. But just like the prodigal son, I realised that in my father's house I would be fed and clothed and provided for..but I had to get into the state of 'hunger' and 'nakedness' before I realised that I needed to be clothed and fed...and then I came home...because I am my Father's child. Hard to explain! That's how I believe that God manipulates things and allows things to happen to us so as to bring us to repentence. This happened to me.

The answer to this question would have to be yes because they are not guilty of anything until they do it. I am not guilty of a crime that I might commit 30 years in the future until I have committed that crime.

Hmmm I don't think I could! And God is not confined to time and space...so if you take away the element of time and space then the issue of 'time' isn't there. You're either his child or not. You're either his sheep or you're not. And this was predestinated since before the foundations of the world.

[TreeOfLife]

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?

That's actually a pretty good analogy for the gospel isn't it?

[Jim Woodell]

If you knew that your soon-to-be spouse was going to cheat on you and that you would want to divorce them...would you still marry them?




That's actually a pretty good analogy for the gospel isn't it?

Although God is omnipotent and omnipresent and omniscience, can He choose not to know??

Look at Heb. 6:4-6.

[aggie03]

Hmmm I don't think I could! And God is not confined to time and space...so if you take away the element of time and space then the issue of 'time' isn't there. You're either his child or not. You're either his sheep or you're not. And this was predestinated since before the foundations of the world.

This is not the full content of Godzchild's post, I would like to reply to the rest of the post later if she doesn't mind. If you do, Godzchild, please PM me and I will edit this post.

In concern about marrying someone that you knew would turn away from, didn't Jesus die so that everyone could be saved? Everyone has the opportunity to be become a Christian. This is a sacrifice that he made know that there would be people who reject it. Why would he do that? I believe he did that because I am not guilty of something until I reject it. God is outside of time, yes, but we are not. We, are therefore, bound by time. And in the construct of our lives we are not guilty of something until it is done. The predestination you refer to seems not to be referring to particular individuals, but to a particular type of people: those who become conformed to the will of the saviour.

As a side note...when did the topic of the thread shift? Is this change all right with person who started the thread?

[Godzchild]

I don't mind the subject of the post shifting...it's kinda still running along the same lines anyway.

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

Why send his son to die if he knew all this? Well how could he know one could make a decision if there was no decision to make? He had to send his son otherwise there'd be no salvation decision to make. Even Judas' deception was prophecied...but it still had to happen though!

[aggie03]

I don't mind the subject of the post shifting...it's kinda still running along the same lines anyway.

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

Why send his son to die if he knew all this? Well how could he know one could make a decision if there was no decision to make? He had to send his son otherwise there'd be no salvation decision to make. Even Judas' deception was prophecied...but it still had to happen though!

Exactly! It all has to happen. This is because God is a just God. He cannot punish us for something that we have not done. That would not be just. Does that make any kind of sense?

[TreeOfLife]

I don't mind the subject of the post shifting...it's kinda still running along the same lines anyway.

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

Why send his son to die if he knew all this? Well how could he know one could make a decision if there was no decision to make? He had to send his son otherwise there'd be no salvation decision to make. Even Judas' deception was prophecied...but it still had to happen though!

You know, it's that "opportunity to choose" thing that really bugs me. Personally, the concept of choice just never really entered into my being saved. The Truth was revealed to me and I was so overjoyed at the awakening that the idea of choice or choosing never even came into play. It was way more than a "I pick door number one" type thing. It was an "Awesome WOOHOO!!!!!" kind of thing.

I had been given the one thing I needed most, but did not have a clue I needed.

I am so astoundingly lucky that God chose me.

[Godzchild]

You know, it's that "opportunity to choose" thing that really bugs me. Personally, the concept of choice just never really entered into my being saved. The Truth was revealed to me and I was so overjoyed at the awakening that the idea of choice or choosing never even came into play. It was way more than a "I pick door number one" type thing. It was an "Awesome WOOHOO!!!!!" kind of thing.


Interesting way of thinking. It certainly coincides with the Holy Spirit bringing the person to repentence. I'll have to think about that one some more.

Meanwhile does anyone have any scripture that spacifically says that, once we have been enlighted by the Holy Spirit of the gospel...is it a choice that we follow it?

[Godzchild]

Exactly! It all has to happen. This is because God is a just God. He cannot punish us for something that we have not done. That would not be just. Does that make any kind of sense?

It makes perfect sense but no one is talking about punishment are we? We are talking about predestination.

[TreeOfLife]

Interesting way of thinking. It certainly coincides with the Holy Spirit bringing the person to repentence. I'll have to think about that one some more.


:thumbsup:

[rosiecotton]

The way I see it, is that...yes...Christ died for all. Yes we ALL have the opportunity to choose Christ or not..but God forsaw it all anyway and would have known who were his children and who were not. I just can't get past the fact that it was all predestined. He knew who would make the choice and who wouldn't...therefore he knew his children since before time.

This is basically the way I look at it. He knew who would choose Him and who wouldn't.
The only verse I can think of right off hand about us choosing God is part of Joshua 24:15 where it says "then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve..."

[joyinhim]

You know, it's that "opportunity to choose" thing that really bugs me. Personally, the concept of choice just never really entered into my being saved. The Truth was revealed to me and I was so overjoyed at the awakening that the idea of choice or choosing never even came into play. It was way more than a "I pick door number one" type thing. It was an "Awesome WOOHOO!!!!!" kind of thing.

I had been given the one thing I needed most, but did not have a clue I needed.

I am so astoundingly lucky that God chose me.

:clap: :amen: I feel the same way about "OSAS" too. I don't understand why they make such a big deal out of it.:confused: :confused: :confused:

[holo]

I don't dare make an absolute stand for or against the whole OSAS thing. I do know that God is way more longsuffering than any of us, though.

But I'm not so sure it needs to be such a big issue. If someone lives in fear because they think they may not be saved, my view on OSAS won't help them one bit. They need to see Jesus and his love, that's the only thing that will truly change anybody. It changed me, more than any sermon or theological standpoint I've ever heard.

So, while I don't know where the line is drawn, or even if there is such a line at all, I know by experience that these things do not annull my salvation:

sin (occasional and habitual)
attempted suicide
drug addiction
faulty theology

[daverain]

If someone lives in fear because they think they may not be saved, my view on OSAS won't help them one bit.



"Whoever comes to me, I will -NEVER- drive away."

-Jesus



Peace in Christ

[aggie03]

"Whoever comes to me, I will -NEVER- drive away."

-Jesus



Peace in Christ

Well, the question isn't about whether or not Jesus will "drive anyone away". It's about whether or not someone can turn their back on Jesus. The Bible says that they can.

[Godzchild]

The bible also says that the HOly Spirit will guide and convict them to turn back. The bible also says that Christ will go looking for his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and follow him.

I have turned my back on Christ at one point in my life and I came back. What made me come back?

I remained saved!

[aggie03]

The bible also says that the HOly Spirit will guide and convict them to turn back. The bible also says that Christ will go looking for his sheep and his sheep hear his voice and follow him.

Jesus did come to look for the lost sheep when he came to the earth. He then provided a way for the lost sheep to come back. Can a person choose to leave God? The answer must be yes or a person cannot choose to come to God.

I have turned my back on Christ at one point in my life and I came back. What made me come back?I remained saved!

This is also something that the Bible says can happen. There is a difference between someone who leaves for a little while and someone who utterly forsakes. This doesn't prove that one is incapable of leaving God.

[TreeOfLife]

Can a lion change itself into a donkey just because it doesn't believe it's a lion anymore?

Christians are new creations in Christ because of what Christ has done. Only Christ would be able to undo it, and for Him to do so would require that He didn't know something. Namely, that one of His children would want to run from Him after becoming saved. The very notion makes God out to be either less than all knowing, or in subjection to His own creation.

As for me, I just can't accept either of those things.

[joyinhim]

Jesus did come to look for the lost sheep when he came to the earth. He then provided a way for the lost sheep to come back. Can a person choose to leave God? The answer must be yes or a person cannot choose to come to God.



This is also something that the Bible says can happen. There is a difference between someone who leaves for a little while and someone who utterly forsakes. This doesn't prove that one is incapable of leaving God.

Praise the Lord for your eloquent explanation or analisis or insight.:) :wave: :clap: :clap: :amen:

[holo]

As long as I'm able to make choices, I suppose I can choose to say "no" to Jesus. But I don't know why I would ever want to do anything like that. But yeah, I guess I'm free to leave.

However, I can never "fall" from salvation. I can't stumble or sin so much that grace is no longer sufficient.

[TreeOfLife]

As long as I'm able to make choices, I suppose I can choose to say "no" to Jesus. But I don't know why I would ever want to do anything like that. But yeah, I guess I'm free to leave.

However, I can never "fall" from salvation. I can't stumble or sin so much that grace is no longer sufficient.

Do you understand how stunningly uncommon this revelation of Grace is that you've been given?

In your past posts I have read somebody who abjectly understands. Who has beguiled you to think that the purchase made for you is in your hands?

Stand up brother. Cast those chains off.

[holo]

Do you understand how stunningly uncommon this revelation of Grace is that you've been given?

In your past posts I have read somebody who abjectly understands. Who has beguiled you to think that the purchase made for you is in your hands?

Stand up brother. Cast those chains off.Thank you kind sir!

Yes, I often feel alone in thoughts and experiences with grace, but I keep in mind that I used to be a legalist in one form or another my entire life, and it did take some time to get my mind and heart renewed, so to speak.
The best part is, I'm just getting started!

And I see that people from all around are slowly and surely getting to know this wonderful grace and growing out of those slimy chains. Old thought patterns have a tendency to crawl back into your head, but here, too, God's love casts out all fear.

He is our righteousness. His grace breaks me so much more than commandments could ever do. His grace makes me bow lower to Him than fear ever did.

I never use those pesky little smilies, but Lord, this one's for you - :bow:

[TreeOfLife]

Thank you kind sir!

Yes, I often feel alone in thoughts and experiences with grace, but I keep in mind that I used to be a legalist in one form or another my entire life, and it did take some time to get my mind and heart renewed, so to speak.
The best part is, I'm just getting started!

And I see that people from all around are slowly and surely getting to know this wonderful grace and growing out of those slimy chains. Old thought patterns have a tendency to crawl back into your head, but here, too, God's love casts out all fear.

He is our righteousness. His grace breaks me so much more than commandments could ever do. His grace makes me bow lower to Him than fear ever did.

I never use those pesky little smilies, but Lord, this one's for you - :bow:

Yeah. That astounding Love thing is really pretty cool ain't it? :clap:

Who'd have ever thought that Jesus would have saved me?

It really does blow my mind. And I think that is exactly how the Lord God of all Creation wanted it! :eek:

[joyinhim]

Thank you kind sir!

Yes, I often feel alone in thoughts and experiences with grace, but I keep in mind that I used to be a legalist in one form or another my entire life, and it did take some time to get my mind and heart renewed, so to speak.
The best part is, I'm just getting started!

And I see that people from all around are slowly and surely getting to know this wonderful grace and growing out of those slimy chains. Old thought patterns have a tendency to crawl back into your head, but here, too, God's love casts out all fear.

He is our righteousness. His grace breaks me so much more than commandments could ever do. His grace makes me bow lower to Him than fear ever did.


holo, people know all about grace. What they don't know is showing their appreciation with action. Faith without deed is dead: This is what you should start to preach. It's not being told. We don't see much Jesus around us. It's because most of us are lip servicing christians. It's so easy to say we love jusus. If pastors start talk about our responsibilities as Chrisyians they lose most of their members. We have lazy and spoilded generation.

[TreeOfLife]

holo, people know all about grace. What they don't know is showing their appreciation with action. Faith without deed is dead: This is what you should start to preach. It's not being told. We don't see much Jesus around us. It's because most of us are lip servicing christians. It's so easy to say we love jusus. If pastors start talk about our responsibilities as Chrisyians they lose most of their members. We have lazy and spoilded generation.

Is there any chance at all that you could be more condemming? If so, you know why don't you just really get with it? Go for it! Hit me!

Hit me!

Go for it if it makes you feel like you actually know Jesus.

Beat me with everything you have stored up inside of you. Truely. Hit me. I can take it and you will feel better.

Not a problem I am glad to do it. Hit me.

I am not kidding. Hit me with all the anger you have. I will take it and pray you forgive me for the pain I have caused you. I am so sorry.

[joyinhim]

Is there any chance at all that you could be more condemming? If so, you know why don't you just really get with it? Go for it! Hit me!

Hit me!

Go for it if it makes you feel like you actually know Jesus.

Beat me with everything you have stored up inside of you. Truely. Hit me. I can take it and you will feel better.

Not a problem I am glad to do it. Hit me.

I am not kidding. Hit me with all the anger you have. I will take it and pray you forgive me for the pain I have caused you. I am so sorry.

Well, I think this country needs more people speak up for the truth. But I can hardly find any..:sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
I think I am leaving this CF very soon. I am tired of this country's hypocricy.

[TreeOfLife]

Well, I think this country needs more people speak up for the truth. But I can hardly find any..:sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh: :sigh:
I think I am leaving this CF very soon. I am tired of this country's hypocricy.

Well. That has not one thing to do with anything I said. You do know that you seem have no love at all in anything you post right?

I am assuming here that you really do mean to be as hurtful as you possibly can?

Or have I missed something?

I could be wrong.

[joyinhim]

Well. That has not one thing to do with anything I said. You do know that you have no love at all in anything you post right?

You do realise you do not know Love right?

I am assuming here that you really do mean to be as hurtful as you possibly can, and that you do this because of the dark nature of your own soul?

Or have I missed something?

I could be wrong.

If you can not tell I have been serving Him with all my might by reading my posts, then you don't know Him or love Him.

Good day tree of life May God be with you

[Entertaining_Angels]

Well. That has not one thing to do with anything I said. You do know that you have no love at all in anything you post right?

You do realise you do not know Love right?

I am assuming here that you really do mean to be as hurtful as you possibly can, and that you do this because of the dark nature of your own soul?

Or have I missed something?

I could be wrong.

I personally think our modern-day Noah is actually one of two things. Either she has been hurt by her divorce and life in general or she is actually trolling looking to tear apart the Body of Christ. Noone has been left unscathed and I have yet to even see one of the fruits of the Spirit in any of her posts.

I'd like to point out, before I disagreed about our military, she and I had had some nice correspondance. Maybe if somebody who has not disagreed with her yet on an issue took it upon them to email her and offer kindness, she'd take them up on it. I tried after we disagreed but that didn't go over well. In the meantime, although we're all here on an anonymous bulletin board, praying is always our best option.

[Godzchild]

Jesus did come to look for the lost sheep when he came to the earth. He then provided a way for the lost sheep to come back. Can a person choose to leave God? The answer must be yes or a person cannot choose to come to God.


Sure they can choose to leave but Jesus will go and find them and bring them back! The HOly Ghost will convict...do you know what conviction feels like? It feels like you have no choice but to comply! That's what it feels like. You have this strong strong urge to stop what you're doing and turn back, it is impossible to ignore!!! That's what it feels like! "Nope sorry, I can't go on...I just can't...I have to turn back...this feels terrible, I'm alone, naked and hungry...and there's food and clothing at my Daddy's house...I have to go back...I can't stand this any longer". Sound familiar (the prodigal son) It's a no brainer!!! It's feel like...you know how if someone attacks you...you natural instinct is to run? You don't have a choice!!! You're body senses danger and the 'fight or flight' mechanism kicks in. That's as close as I can get to explaining conviction.

This is also something that the Bible says can happen. There is a difference between someone who leaves for a little while and someone who utterly forsakes. This doesn't prove that one is incapable of leaving God.

A true child of God cannot ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit for too long. They have to come back! You underestimate God's power!

Christians are new creations in Christ because of what Christ has done. Only Christ would be able to undo it, and for Him to do so would require that He didn't know something. Namely, that one of His children would want to run from Him after becoming saved. The very notion makes God out to be either less than all knowing, or in subjection to His own creation.


Exactly!! And it's this NEW nature that we are dealing here. Not the old forsaking "I don't give a hoot about God" one. Can't you see. We are a new creation...we are a whole new person. We are no longer subject to the old man!

holo, people know all about grace. What they don't know is showing their appreciation with action. Faith without deed is dead: This is what you should start to preach. It's not being told. We don't see much Jesus around us. It's because most of us are lip servicing christians. It's so easy to say we love jusus. If pastors start talk about our responsibilities as Chrisyians they lose most of their members. We have lazy and spoilded generation.

And it's this type of talk that binds people up in chains and makes them feel like they are not free as they think. It's this type of talk that kills people...and YES IT KILLS!!! I should know...how sad! Taking scripture out of context to stroke one's self-righteousness..all the while not understanding the scripture! Shame on you!!!!!

[Surrender2Win]

Let's take this situation for an example...

Let's say this man discovers Christ through a life of hardship. He's a very intelligent man who is often a skeptic. Well he finds Christ and dedicates his life to him for 10 years. He was saved. Until he comes across to someone to feed him lies about how there is no evidence for Christ. His skeptic nature kicks in and he walks away from Christ because of this evidence.

He was saved from the heart. It says once you are saved you are pre-destined and you cannot be taken away from him.

So if this gentlemen is a full blown athiest now, is he still secured in heaven?

"And let's say in another situation someone was saved and 10 years later they live a life of sin."

What will happen?

This may have already been pointed out...and if so I apoligize, I have not read through this entire thread. My perspective as of now is Romans 10:9-13

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28185e)] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2010;&version=31;#fen-NIV-28187f)]

It is what they believe in their heart and confess with their mouth. If this person no longer believes in his heart that Jesus Christ is Lord and that God raised Him from the dead...then I would opt to say that they aren't saved any longer. I'm still learning though, so I could be way off here...but as of now, this is where I am with it.

[aggie03]

Sure they can choose to leave but Jesus will go and find them and bring them back! The HOly Ghost will convict...

Then what is the point of Hebrews 6?

do you know what conviction feels like? It feels like you have no choice but to comply! That's what it feels like. You have this strong strong urge to stop what you're doing and turn back, it is impossible to ignore!!! That's what it feels like! "Nope sorry, I can't go on...I just can't...I have to turn back...this feels terrible, I'm alone, naked and hungry...and there's food and clothing at my Daddy's house...I have to go back...I can't stand this any longer". Sound familiar (the prodigal son) It's a no brainer!!! It's feel like...you know how if someone attacks you...you natural instinct is to run? You don't have a choice!!! You're body senses danger and the 'fight or flight' mechanism kicks in. That's as close as I can get to explaining conviction.

You do have a choice. You always have a choice. If there is no choice then your obedience is by compulsion and you no longer have free will. Again, Acts 2 shows that there were those who were pricked in their hearts that did not choose to follow God.

A true child of God cannot ignore the promptings of the Holy Spirit for too long.

It's not that they cannot ignore God, it's that they choose not to. They aren't saved because that they can't turn away, but they are saved because they came back.


They have to come back!

Absolutely not. Paul talks about shipwrecked faith. Does a ship that been wrecked ever go back to port. No.

You underestimate God's power!

No, you understimate God's desire for a contrite heart, not for a compulsory response.

[aggie03]

And it's this type of talk that binds people up in chains and makes them feel like they are not free as they think. It's this type of talk that kills people...and YES IT KILLS!!! I should know...how sad! Taking scripture out of context to stroke one's self-righteousness..all the while not understanding the scripture! Shame on you!!!!!

This was not in response to anythin that I said, but I must answer:

How is saying that people should do what God wants killing them? There is nothing self-righteous about saying that people should be obedient to God. Jesus says this many, many times. The wise man who built his house upon the rock - who was he lilkened to? Those that heard and DID the word. The foolish man was likened to those who heard the word and DIDN'T do it. Whose house was destroyed? (Matthew 7:24-29)

I believe that what this person said about doing what God asks is a correct understanding of the Scriptures and not taken out of context AT all. They weren't being self-righteous either - they included themselves in the "us" that make up the "lip service" Christians.

[Godzchild]

Then what is the point of Hebrews 6?

Just Hebrews 6? What about the rest of the bible?

You do have a choice. You always have a choice. If there is no choice then your obedience is by compulsion and you no longer have free will.

Do you know what conviction feels like? The choice is a no brainer! Get it? It's like having someone chasing after you with a gun...are you going to stand there and be shot or run? Well your whole body is saying RUN!!!! But it's still a choice right? Free will and all that? But your body is saying to run...so you run! Why? Because if you don't run you will get shot! See? See what I'm saying?

That's what it feels like to walk away from God and getting in conviction to come back. Sure it's a choice but the choice is a no brainer. You either stay where you are and die or you RUN because you're whole being is telling you to Run. You're whole being is set for you to run back to God. It's automatic...to stop this 'instinct' you would have to be mighty strong - and even stronger than God himself!

Again, Acts 2 shows that there were those who were pricked in their hearts that did not choose to follow God.

Then they were not saved then! They then do not have the power of God's Holy Spirit in their lives. We are talking about saved people...not people who do not heed the call for salvation.

It's not that they cannot ignore God, it's that they choose not to. They aren't saved because that they can't turn away, but they are saved because they came back.

They choose not to because they desire to come back to where it was nice and warm and where they were fed. Where does that desire come from?

Absolutely not. Paul talks about shipwrecked faith. Does a ship that been wrecked ever go back to port. No.

Yes it can! God can restore! He restore souls. What you are suggesting is in stark contrast to what i've been through. I've had a shipwrecked faith...in fact I turned away from God...I even yelled and screamed abuse at him with my fist in the air!! But guess what? I was restored back to my (or his ;) ) former glory! God has that power! Or don't you believe it? HE has the power to fix wrecked ships!

How is saying that people should do what God wants killing them?

Because it binds people! It brings condemnation and guilt because they are not living the expectations of what man intreprets God's are. And when this happens...it has the possibility to destroy! Story of my life :(

There is nothing self-righteous about saying that people should be obedient to God.

Yes it is. It suggests that one can actually be obedient to God. When that's not the case. The obedience that one must have FAITH in is Christ's perfect obedience. If we rely on our own obedience then we fail. Someone who preaches that one must obey...is obviously someone who is caught up in legalism and self-righteousness. My mum is like this. So busy preaching about obedience...and not enough about faith and love! Wrong on so many levels!

Jesus says this many, many times. The wise man who built his house upon the rock - who was he lilkened to? Those that heard and DID the word. The foolish man was likened to those who heard the word and DIDN'T do it. Whose house was destroyed? (Matthew 7:24-29)

Don't forget he actually died and rose again after he spoke that parable ;) That means we build our house on CHRIST who is the rock. And HIS DOING becomes OUR DOING.

I believe that what this person said about doing what God asks is a correct understanding of the Scriptures and not taken out of context AT all. They weren't being self-righteous either - they included themselves in the "us" that make up the "lip service" Christians.

Yes it was taken out of context. You are aware that in some places in the NT it talks about justification UNTO GOD - which is faith and other places it talks about justification UNTO MEN - which is works? Right? Hasn't it ever occured to you that the bible seems to contradict itself? On one hand it talks about salvation by faith...then in the next it talks about salvation by works. But it's not contradictory at all...if you understand to whom it was written and why.

Faith without deeds is dead - according to men. If men don't see deeds then you are not justified because they can't see your faith. But God can see your faith BEFORE/WITHOUT your deeds...therefore you are justified to God but not to men if you don't have deeds. Get it?

[aggie03]

Just Hebrews 6? What about the rest of the bible?

Hebrews 6 doesn't contradict anything in the rest of the Scriptures, and it clearly says one can turn away from Christ.

[Godzchild]

Where? Show me? Who was the audience? what about the scripture about those who went out made manifest that they were never of them to begin with? You must read ALL of Hebrews to understand Hebrews 6.

And you didn't respond to the rest of my post :(

[aggie03]

I figured that we would go through it a little bit at a time. We can use it as our reference post :)

[Godzchild]

Probably a good idea so it does'nt get so long! ;)

[TreeOfLife]

If you can not tell I have been serving Him with all my might by reading my posts, then you don't know Him or love Him.

Good day tree of life May God be with you

I was just trying to get you to take it out on me, whatever "it" is. There seems to be a frustration to many of your posts. I thought that being angry with me might help you get over the hump.

I have no doubt that you are being honest when you say you are serving God with all your might. I wish I could say something that would get you to understand that it's OK to rest in the Lord too. Everything in it's own season.

I pray you will find great rest and comfort in the Lord today.

[joyinhim]

I was just trying to get you to take it out on me, whatever "it" is. There seems to be a frustration to many of your posts. I thought that being angry with me might help you get over the hump.

I have no doubt that you are being honest when you say you are serving God with all your might. I wish I could say something that would get you to understand that it's OK to rest in the Lord too. Everything in it's own season.

I pray you will find great rest and comfort in the Lord today.

Do you know what Paul said in jail? "I fought the good fight, I finished the race". I am running a race. I am fighting a good fight. I have a joy fighting for the Lord. I want hear Jesus tells me "hitomi, you did a good job"

Jesus talks about hypocricy many times in the NT. He says "watch out for hypocricy" This country is filled with hypocricy. People can not see it because they don't care about Him or serving Him with all their hearts.

May God bless this country with true blessing comes from Him.

In Jesus name, hitomi wilde

[TreeOfLife]

Do you know what Paul said in jail? "I fought the good fight, I finished the race". I am running a race. I am fighting a good fight. I have a joy fighting for the Lord. I want hear Jesus tells me "hitomi, you did a good job"

Jesus talks about hypocricy many times in the NT. He says "watch out for hypocricy" This country is filled with hypocricy. People can not see it because they don't care about Him or serving Him with all their hearts.

May God bless this country with true blessing comes from Him.

In Jesus name, hitomi wilde

What if you were to suddenly realize that we do care? That we do love Jesus? How can we not love Jesus? :)

It could be that we are just not as strong in our faith yet as you are. If that's the case, we could sure use some encouragement from those who are stronger.

[joyinhim]

What if you were to suddenly realize that we do care? That we do love Jesus? How can we not love Jesus? :)

It could be that we are just not as strong in our faith yet as you are. If that's the case, we could sure use some encouragement from those who are stronger.

We can tell by our fruit if we are true followers or not. This country is not showing much fruit of christianity. You don't know because you have been trained to think about yourself first. Why don't you start finding out about the truth about your own church. Do you know how much they are helping others? The Bible tells us to not to do anything to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. If you don't know about your own church how do you know if they are fruitful or not.

Lets not just talk talk and talk. You should start paying attention to whom you are associating with.

I repeat; The Bible tells us "have nothing to do with fruitless deeds of darkness"

[bobaloo]

We can tell by our fruit if we are true followers or not. This country is not showing much fruit of christianity. You don't know because you have been trained to think about yourself first. Why don't you start finding out about the truth about your own church. Do you know how much they are helping others? The Bible tells us to not to do anything to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness. If you don't know about your own church how do you know if they are fruitful or not.

Lets not just talk talk and talk. You should start paying attention to whom you are associating with.

I repeat; The Bible tells us "have nothing to do with fruitless deeds of darkness"

How about we just love one another and see if the world notices? Didn't Jesus say that would be how the world would know we are saved?

Know that you are loved today by other Christians joyinhim. :)

[joyinhim]

How about we just love one another and see if the world notices? Didn't Jesus say that would be how the world would know we are saved?

Know that you are loved today by other Christians joyinhim. :)

I can not ignor the reality of this country's using His name in vain. If you truly love Him you could not keep your mouth shut. This country is disgracing Him name.

[bobaloo]

I can not ignor the reality of this country's using His name in vain. If you truly love Him you could not keep your mouth shut. This country is disgracing Him name.

The country? I don't understand.

What does that have to do with eternal security of salvation to those that believe?

[joyinhim]

The country? I don't understand.

What does that have to do with eternal security of salvation to those that believe?

I am talking about the Christans who just talk talk and not the walk. You don't want to talk about the walking with Him it's because you dont have it.

If you don't have walk with Him why do you bother discussing about the Bible.
Being Christian is all about walking with Him for His porpose which is reaching out to the lost souls.

[bobaloo]

I am talking about the Christans who just talk talk and not the walk. You don't want to talk about the walking with Him it's because you dont have it.

If you don't have walk with Him why do you bother discussing about the Bible.
Being Christian is all about walking with Him for His porpose which is reaching out to the lost souls.

Ummm. OK I guess. But I'm a Christian and God lives in me. He is always with me.

[joyinhim]

Ummm. OK I guess. But I'm a Christian and God lives in me. He is always with me.

If you love Him you would feel terrible how people are misrepresenting Him. If you feel bad then you also speak up for Him. If you can not see hypocricy in this country there is something very wrong with your faith. Isn't that because you are not serving Him with all your heart, soul and strengh and mind? Jesus is not cheap. He died for Us. He tells us "If you can not give up everthing you have, you can not be my disciple" Do you know that? He never says He just wants to hear your sweet talk.

[bobaloo]

If you love Him you would feel terrible how people are misrepresenting Him. If you feel bad then you also speak up for Him. If you can not see hypocricy in this country there is something very wrong with your faith. Isn't that because you are not serving Him with all your heart, soul and strengh and mind? Jesus is not cheap. He died for Us. He tells us "If you can not give up everthing you have, you can not be my disciple" Do you know that? He never says He just wants to hear your sweet talk.

Who is misrepresenting Him?

[joyinhim]

Who is misrepresenting Him?

I see that you can not see the reality or truth. Start serve Him with all your heart, soul, strengh and mind, then you know what I am talking about. Until then. Good day, bobaloo

[Jim Woodell]

I see that you can not see the reality or truth. Start serve Him with all your heart, soul, strengh and mind, then you know what I am talking about. Until then. Good day, bobaloo

Joyinhim. I urge you to back off. You are becoming more and more harsh in your statements to people you have never met. I urge you to consider the writings of Paul in Romans 2:1-2.

[bobaloo]

I see that you can not see the reality or truth. Start serve Him with all your heart, soul, strengh and mind, then you know what I am talking about. Until then. Good day, bobaloo

You have a good day too joyinhim.

[joyinhim]

Joyinhim. I urge you to back off. You are becoming more and more harsh in your statements to people you have never met. I urge you to consider the writings of Paul in Romans 2:1-2.

OK pastor Jim, I think I have exposed a lot of dirt that most churches are sweeping under the rug. "and have no fellowwhip with the unfruitful of darkness, but rather expose them"

May God be with you all.

[holo]

holo, people know all about grace.I disagree 100%.

If people actually knew how much God loves us and has forgiven us, they would all stop accusing each other, they'd repent, they' cry, they'd be broken, they'd love Jesus with all their hearts.

Yes, faith without works is dead, but works without love is worse than death. Doing good works because you're afraid of God is a horrible way to live. I know this by experience. Furthermore, to wave one's pointing fingers at others in the name of Jesus is nothing but blasphemy. It's like saying, "I believe Jesus died for all my sins and faults, therefore I have reason to judge you."

[Jim Woodell]

OK pastor Jim, I think I have exposed a lot of dirt that most churches are sweeping under the rug. "and have no fellowwhip with the unfruitful of darkness, but rather expose them"

May God be with you all.

Thank you.:thumbsup:

[TreeOfLife]

I disagree 100%.

If people actually knew how much God loves us and has forgiven us, they would all stop accusing each other, they'd repent, they' cry, they'd be broken, they'd love Jesus with all their hearts.

Yes, faith without works is dead, but works without love is worse than death. Doing good works because you're afraid of God is a horrible way to live. I know this by experience. Furthermore, to wave one's pointing fingers at others in the name of Jesus is nothing but blasphemy. It's like saying, "I believe Jesus died for all my sins and faults, therefore I have reason to judge you."

I agree Holo. If we constantly look at people, man are we ever in for a disappointment. But if we can somehow keep our eyes on Jesus, more and more realizing our abject unworthiness to receive such an awesome gift. Then we learn Love.

Even once we come to understand, it can still be hard to walk in sometimes. :sigh:

[Godzchild]

Joyinhim! Why are you lecturing us?

Why are YOU telling US what we should or should not do? You have know idea what we do. NONE!! I have sadness for the world today, but for people like you I have more, I hold grave fears for those who follow along your footsteps. And many here have spoken up against you...doesn't that tell you something?

It seems you are too busy judging others and not enough time loving. I don't see any love whatsoever in your posts. None at all! In fact all I see is self-righteous judgement. And this really saddens me. I'm sad for those you influence and most of all, I'm sad for you becaue you seem to be all bound up and tight. You seem rigid and unmaluable. And Christ cannot work with those who are unable to be moulded. I may have you all wrong, and I hope I do. I really hope I do. I'm merely telling you what I see. You username 'joyinhim' does not become you! I don't see it, I'm sorry :(

I wish I can grab you and give you a big old and hug and make you a coffee. I wish to sit with you and tell you my life story. I wish to make you feel and see what I have felt and seen in my lifetime. And then I wish that I could make you feel what I do now. The peace that passes understanding. The love and security I feel in Christ now. How he is my everything and how I live and breath him. How I long to know him better and better.

I have not always been this way. I was once just like you. Ready to point the finger and expose others as frauds at all cost! This is what I was taught to do! And it was to my own destriment. I wish I knew then what I know now. But then again...If I hadn't gone through what i had then, would I even be the person I am now? Probably not!

Let me just say this. A husband who beats and threatens his wife into submission never really gets pure love and obedience from her. Rather he gets obedience and submission born out of fear and resentment. The God that I know, is the kind of husband that loves someone to love them. And in doing so we then love him enough that we WANT to do things for him and serve him...not out of fear of Him or fear of hell. But out of pure love...love that he has bestowed upon us. Love that we have received from him FIRST.

We can all learn a lesson from the wife beater and child abuser of today. We can learn a lesson on what God is NOT. And how much love he actually has for us. God is love!

Jesus came not to condemn the world but to save it. We should all take a leaf from his book and do the same thing. Right now, this is not what I'm seeing from you. As I said, I could be wrong, and I hope I am. But this is what I see.

Prove me wrong! I challenge you to prove me wrong. I would love nothing more but to be wrong about you!

[Godzchild]

Actually I have something else to see. This is really pressing on my spirit to share this because I believe it imortant.

I have 4 young children. Each of them is unique. Each of them have talents. Each of them have weaknesses. But I would not be a good parent if I continually focused on their weaknesses. In fact, if I was to point the finger at everything my children do and not give them any praise or encouragement for the things they DO do right then I will actually quench their spirit. Not only that but they would not have the motivation to do better.

So I ask you...how does it feel when someone is continually saying to you. "Mate, I'm not seeing any good in you...you're doing this or that and this and these things are bad..you should be doing this or that and you're not". Doesn't feel good huh? What about if they were to say "Wow mate, you're doing great! I like how you did this or that. I love seeing you do this. Keep up the good work!" Really makes you wanna keep doing the good work - doesn't it?

So as much as I love my children and as much as I would never EVER disown my children (because they were born my children). The chastising I do NEVER undermines or overides the praise. And if it does, I notice a change in their behaviour...they feel discouraged and when they feel this way, they don't perform as well. But when I have the right balance...they blossom and grow into the confident individuals I desire them to be.

Something to think about anyway :)

[Llauralin]

If you love Him you would feel terrible how people are misrepresenting Him. If you feel bad then you also speak up for Him. If you can not see hypocricy in this country there is something very wrong with your faith. Isn't that because you are not serving Him with all your heart, soul and strengh and mind? Jesus is not cheap. He died for Us. He tells us "If you can not give up everthing you have, you can not be my disciple" Do you know that? He never says He just wants to hear your sweet talk.
*Frowns* I know that you probably don't need another person here talking like this, so please forgive me, but...

:cry:

Normally I'm the first person to complain about how people don't live up to their own standards, or take God seriously enough, but I really don't hink that we are called to wallow in the Church's failings so much that we forget how loveable people are, or how glorious creation is, or how forgiving our God is. I don't see what you see; perhaps it's because I know different people, or because you're part of a lousy, hypacritical church or something, but I just really don't understand what you've been saying for the last couple of pages...

Alright, humanity is a vast calamity; we're ungreatful, wretched, hypocrits.

But then again, sometimes people are also SO loveable, and charming, and usually Christians are trying their best, and trying to love God, and excited, and...wonderful! Don't you ever feel like that??? Aren't you ever with people, and suddenly Get an overwhelming feeling of how dear everyone is, and how awsome it is that we are all bound together in the loveing embrace of God? Or that the world is a vast fairytale, where things are dangerous, and times are uncertain, and people lose heart and fail, but everything is exciting and joyous and special just the same?

[aggie03]

Actually I have something else to see. This is really pressing on my spirit to share this because I believe it imortant.

I have 4 young children. Each of them is unique. Each of them have talents. Each of them have weaknesses. But I would not be a good parent if I continually focused on their weaknesses. In fact, if I was to point the finger at everything my children do and not give them any praise or encouragement for the things they DO do right then I will actually quench their spirit. Not only that but they would not have the motivation to do better.

So I ask you...how does it feel when someone is continually saying to you. "Mate, I'm not seeing any good in you...you're doing this or that and this and these things are bad..you should be doing this or that and you're not". Doesn't feel good huh? What about if they were to say "Wow mate, you're doing great! I like how you did this or that. I love seeing you do this. Keep up the good work!" Really makes you wanna keep doing the good work - doesn't it?

So as much as I love my children and as much as I would never EVER disown my children (because they were born my children). The chastising I do NEVER undermines or overides the praise. And if it does, I notice a change in their behaviour...they feel discouraged and when they feel this way, they don't perform as well. But when I have the right balance...they blossom and grow into the confident individuals I desire them to be.

Something to think about anyway :)


Well, falling from grace isn't as simple really as "oops, you've messed up once, now you're not saved any more." That's not what I think it is at all...otherwise I know at least one person on this thread who goes by "aggie03" that wouldn't be saved.

Falling from grace isn't even God disowning anyone - because I do believe that the Scriptures say that God will never "kicj anyone out". They do say, however, that people can leave. God will not "lock the doors" and keep someone from leaving His house.

On another note, what was the post number for our "reference" post?

[TreeOfLife]

Praying for a miracle.

[joyinhim]

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

[Entertaining_Angels]

Praying for a miracle.

where two or more are gathered...

praying with you.

[deu58]

Hello Joyinhim

No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.


1jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

1jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.


1jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

1jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

yours in Christ
deu 58

[joyinhim]

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his Word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

[deu58]

Hello Joyinhim

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his Word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.

Jesus walked as Jew in the Law of Moses, Are you doing that? In fact, You can not walk as Jesus did because you are woman, The verses where Paul says a woman should not teach and needs to remain silent in the church, Do you know where they come from???

Lu 8:2 And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils,

Lu 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.


They come from the example of Christs Ministry on earth,

The women who walked with Christ were not considered disciples, They did not teach, They were not sent out to preach, There duty was to minister to to Jesus and the men he sent out, They were permited to share their faith,

But they were not Evangelists, Teachers or pastors,

Your in Christ
deu 56

[joyinhim]

Do not love the world(secular) or anything in the world(secular). If anyone loves the world(secular), the love of the Father is not in him. For everything in the world - the carvings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does - comes not from the Father but from the world.
The world and its desires pass away, but the man who does the will of God lives forever.

[holo]

joyinhim,
who are you addressing with these qoutes?

[joyinhim]

joyinhim,
who are you addressing with these qoutes?

holo

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he apperared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

[deu58]

holo

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he apperared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, You are not saved by your own righteousness in or out of Christ, It is always Christ and never you, You can not attain the perfection God demands,

You think because you shout from the roof tops every body elses shortcomings this makes you perfect in the eyes of God???

Perhaps you missed the verse where Jesus said, You hypocrits, Remove the beam from your own eye before you try to remove the splinter from your brothers eye,

[holo]

I was about to try to reconcile our views, but I no longer believe we are preaching the same gospel at all.

And to be honest, it's a relief to realize that. It places us on different sides of the fence, so to speak, and neither of us can judge the other as a weak or false believer, because we simply do not believe the same stuff.

joyinhim,
I suggest we treat each other with respect as members of differing religions. I have, for partly other reasons than you, stopped calling myself a christian a long time ago. I suggest, in all honesty and loving kindness, that you do the same. Not because I feel like you misrepresent christianity, but it would take a load off your back to stop considering yourself a true light in the middle of lukewarm christians, and rather go all the way and consider them heretics and haters of truth, as I know you already do some of us.

And please, respond to this with your own words.

[joyinhim]

holo, I believe the Bible is God's word.

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saint. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly skipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of your God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

[Entertaining_Angels]

I've come to the conclusion as well that we do not share the same beliefs (Mrs. Wilde and me) and that grieves me. I came out of teachings where only one side of the gospel was given. Mrs. Wilde is doing the same thing but giving only the other side which is equally as wrong. In fact, I don't even picture it as a spectrum with her on the extreme end and my old teachings on the other. I think of it as a circle and she is dangerously close to where those teachings are. How blessed I have been to find a church and believers who believe and practice a balanced view of the Scriptures. She reminds me of one of those scruffy people wearing the long-flowing robes, condemning everyone to hell on the street corner and holding a sign reminding us of the coming of Jesus. She's twisting the Word of God to profit herself :(

Very sad, very deceived and I know that people who have gotten to that point have been incredibly hurt by the world and need somebody to truly demonstrate Christ's love in their life.

[joyinhim]

But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of your Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own undodly desires." These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spritit.

[Llauralin]

holo

Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. But you know that he apperared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
So you believe you don't sin?

Or that no person at all really loves God?

[Entertaining_Angels]

Wow, lots of false prophets throw out scriptures without taking them in context in order to deceive. When we all begged you to read your Bible, maybe we forgot to explain to you 'context'. Now what you are doing seems an awful lot like what false prophets do. Now, that is playing with fire (literally).

[holo]

Being morally superior to others is a natural instinct if ever there was one.

Love and forgiveness, on the other hand, is divine. I think people represent God's character to the degree that they treat people like Jesus did. Yes, Jesus did rebuke the self-righteous, but there's no way in hell anyone can condemn me for humbly claiming to be saved by nothing but grace.

And joyinhim,
nobody here has ever used grace as a license to sin. Our point is that it is nothing but grace that saves us. That's really all it boils down to, and that's where our gospels differ. You belive we have to live up to certain commandments to be saved. That's ok, by all means, but exactly what commandments are you accusing us of not keeping?

[joyinhim]

For this very reason, make every effor to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perserverance; and to perserverance, godliness; and to dodliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and
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