"Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer"

[Papist]

Hi,

I don't have a problem with this trinitarian formula [i]per se[i], but we have a new vicar who refuses to use "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" at all times, except in Baptism. He also refuses to use the word "Lord". (We have a slightly subversive choirmistress, however, who chooses the hymns and had us going out to a very rousing "Jesus is Lord!" song last week!)

It irritates me -- but should it concern me?

Rob

[romaneagle13]

It seems a bit odd to me. But I don't know if it is a cause for concern.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

Erm...

[Rev. Smith]

Hi,

I don't have a problem with this trinitarian formula [i]per se[i], but we have a new vicar who refuses to use "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" at all times, except in Baptism. He also refuses to use the word "Lord". (We have a slightly subversive choirmistress, however, who chooses the hymns and had us going out to a very rousing "Jesus is Lord!" song last week!)

It irritates me -- but should it concern me?

Rob

It should concern you, but I wouldn't leap to conclusions or actions. Ask the Vicar for an appointment, tell him you've noticed that he rarely uses the full description of the Trinity, and that he likewise avoids the use of the term Lord for...err.. The Lord, ask him why. If his reasons are sound, discuss with the Wardens (or Rectory for my fellow OCs) and see what kind of a policy you can come up with.

If his reasons are silly, try to gently point that out and see if he will reconsider.

If hs reasons are a denial of the Creeds, that you need to take to the Bishop. Drop me a line if you want to get into more detail. This is potentially serious, but hopfully will turn out to be a tempest in a teapot.

With love,
Rev. Smith

[Fish and Bread]

Hi,

I don't have a problem with this trinitarian formula [i]per se[i], but we have a new vicar who refuses to use "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" at all times, except in Baptism. He also refuses to use the word "Lord". (We have a slightly subversive choirmistress, however, who chooses the hymns and had us going out to a very rousing "Jesus is Lord!" song last week!)

It irritates me -- but should it concern me?

Rob

Sometimes people use "Creator, Reedemer, Sustainer" to get people to think about the words that are said and present a different side of God. Other times, they use it because they want to present God without male overtones. On still other occasions, it's used because the person saying it is not trinitarian. The motive behind why your priest is doing what he's doing is very important in terms of his suitability as a Christian shepard, though I agree that no matter what the motive, it's annoying. :) Since it sounds like you're a mission parish, the vicar should be under the direct oversight of your bishop and theoretically the bishop could force the priest to adhere to the liturgy as it's written in the Book of Common Prayer if the situation is brought to his attention (Though whether or not the bishop will actually do this or not depends on what the bishop's own theology is, most likely).

The first thing I'd do is talk to the priest, though. It's always possible that when he sees that you and some other parishioners are concerned, he may change what he's doing. Call the church office and set up a meeting. At the meeting after exchanging pleasantries, I would recommend gently broach the subject by saying you were really curious and a little concerned by the alteration of the liturgy to not include trinitarian references and ask if he would be willing to share his reasoning for excluding them. Make sure you're polite -- you win more flies with honey, etc. :)

If you're still bothered after the meeting, I'd talk to some others and see if you can persuade them to set up meetings with your priest independently to complain about the non-use of trinitarian language (Not mentioning your name, of course). If the priest still isn't moved after that, then that's the time to write to the bishop and encourage others to do so as well. That tends not to be the best route to go if it can be avoided, though, because it'll virtually guarantee that your vicar is hostile to you thereafter if the bishop provides your name (Or if the priest can guess who prompted the bishop to act). But it's there as a last resort.

One thing I'm curious about: Do you still recite the Nicene Creed at the appropriate point in the liturgy? If he somehow manages to avoid reciting it, then that might be a clear indicator that he's not a trinitarian. If he does recite it, though, perhaps he's just making some sort of weird point about thinking of God from new angles as opposed to actually disenting from the traditional Christian faith.

John

[Papist]

We do say the Nicene Creed, and not the ridiculous "Affirmation of Faith" that is one of the alternatives in the NZ prayer book. (It doesn't affirm my faith!)

I had a conversation with him about various things and I said that I didn't like the Affirmation of Faith because it has been made up by just one part of the Church in one small place -- his reply was: "So was the Nicene Creed."

He does have a very flexible theological position. He doesn't say "The Body of Christ" when adminstering the Eucharist. That annoys me too.

His aim, he says, is to be 'welcoming and hospitable', and our language has to reflect that. It actually makes me feel unwelcome ...

[AveMaria]

I've been in churches before where they say 'Creator, Redeemer, & Sustainer" rather than the usual "Father, Son & Holy Ghost/Spirit".

On the one hand, I think it does make some people think more about the concept of the trinity. On the other, it's a bit of mouthful to say, isn't it? And it can make those who prefer traditional language uncomfortable.

I don't think it's necessarily a denial of the trinity- some of the folks I know who use the 'Creator...' form had very abusive fathers and they have difficulty thinking of God as a Father, but they can think of God as a parent or creator.

[PaladinValer]

I would say it is unusual, but I don believe it to be unorthodox.

Still, I'd approach your vicar carefully about it, if you approach at all.

[Fish and Bread]

We do say the Nicene Creed, and not the ridiculous "Affirmation of Faith" that is one of the alternatives in the NZ prayer book. (It doesn't affirm my faith!)

Ohhh, you're from New Zealand. I forgot to check your icon. Please disregard my comments about your church probably being a mission parish. The term vicar in the US is solely used by mission parishes and self-sustaining parishes use the term rector, but I know that doesn't always apply overseas. Some of mu comments about not including trinitarian references being a deviation from the liturgy may be in error as well, since the NZ BCP is reputedly rather unique.

On a side note, I've kind of been shocked not the see the NZ church yet vocally affirm the US and Canada during the recent struggles in the Anglican Communion, given the NZ church's generally liberal leanings. What are hearing you hearing from folks over there in terms of which way they expect NZ to go if there is a split in the communion?

I had a conversation with him about various things and I said that I didn't like the Affirmation of Faith because it has been made up by just one part of the Church in one small place -- his reply was: "So was the Nicene Creed."

With all due respect to your vicar, that's just bad history. The basis of the Nicene Creed was overwhelming affirmed at one of the few undisputed ecumenical councils, with all the world's Christian bishops, representative of all the early Christian communties, taking part in the proceedings.

John

[Papist]

In NZ, not from NZ! But you weren't to know that!

I have 'issues' with much in the NZ prayer book ...

The Anglican Church here is too small to split (although that never stopped Presbyterians! ;) ) so will most likely remain in communion with Canterbury.

It's almost the NZ way to play fast and loose with tradition/Tradition. They just don't care, frankly. And despite the many things I love about NZ, that really gets my goat ...

[Papist]

Also, I think the troubles in the Communion are seen as essentially an American problem. Or an America vs. Africa problem. Our society is not nearly as polarised as US society -- which is more a symptom of people's apathy than a positive thing. The Kiwi attitude is so often somewhere between Yeah Right and Whatever ...

[ContraMundum]

Hi,

I don't have a problem with this trinitarian formula [i]per se[i], but we have a new vicar who refuses to use "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" at all times, except in Baptism. He also refuses to use the word "Lord". (We have a slightly subversive choirmistress, however, who chooses the hymns and had us going out to a very rousing "Jesus is Lord!" song last week!)

It irritates me -- but should it concern me?

Rob

Sounds self-righteous and arrogant to me. No offence, but if his people want him to continue as they were, then he should listen and put his opinions aside.

A lot of people finish their degrees and suddenly think they know more than anyone else in the parish about Christianity. I commend the choirmistress for showing him otherwise.

Pray fervently for him, and bring it up at the next meeting.

[ContraMundum]

The Kiwi attitude is so often somewhere between Yeah Right and Whatever ...

Which is why they get away with this.

Interesting- NZ is getting Continuing parishes this year. :)

[Fish and Bread]

It's almost the NZ way to play fast and loose with tradition/Tradition. They just don't care, frankly.

I heard an explanation somewhere that they were conciously trying to incorporate some of the terminology of the indiginous tribal religious of the natives that would be consistant with Christianity in order to gain converts, kind of like the way early Christianity adapted some minor European pagan customs for it's own use. Is that true or just PR spin for changes that have no relation whatsoever to the indiginous culture?

John

[Papist]

That's PR spin. The indigenous Maori Anglicans are rather more traditionalist than non-Maori. The liturgies in the Maori language are somewhat more orthodox -- and they like it like that. Of course, orthodoxy is expressed in Maori idiom -- nothing wrong with that. But no, the English-language liturgies are stretching the bounds of orthodoxy, to say the least and are more about being liberal than being welcoming to Maori.