Icons--stupid questions...

[Robbie_James_Francis]

:wave: Greetings! :)

I hope this hasn't been brought up recently on TAW;I had a look around the first couple of pages and couldn't find anything. If it has been answered, please do tell me where I can find it and, if you're a mod, feel free to delete this thread. Thanks. :) I was looking through another thread and didn't want to hijack it (bad habit of mine)...

Why are icons "written" and not drawn? I might just be getting into pointless semantics, but I have a feeling there may be a reason for the use of this word...:scratch:
How can icons express sentiments against Orthodox teaching? :confused: Other than the prohibition on depiction of the First Person of the Blessed Trinity, which it would seem many have ignored without official repealment...
What is so significant about the way icons are made, by whom and what materials are used? What are the conditions for this?
What makes an icon different from just a picture depicting God or one of the Saints? What is an icon, if not just a picture?
I must admit that to me an icon is just an image of some sort that depicts God, Yeshua or one of the Saints. It may be a painted 2D image, machine manufactured, a prayer card, a statue etc. It seems that there's a lot more to it from the Orthodox point of view....:)

Thanks,
:hug:
Rob :liturgy: :liturgy:

[gzt]

Art, especially religious art, is polemic. If you want to see what one culture values and believes in, look at the art they make and watch how it changes as they interact with other cultures. The quickest way to see this is to take a course in Art History that covers the Reformation and see what happens to art. I don't know the details of the answers to your questions, but I hope that sounds like a sensible beginning point.

[MariaRegina]

Icons are much more than religious art, therefore they should not be made by anyone who holds just any art degree. In order to transmit the sacred image represented in the Icons, one needs to be steeped in prayer and fasting, and living the Orthodox life. Iconography is a way of life and it is also a way of evangelism, it isn't just a painting. They are windows into heaven and are part of our Sacred Tradition.

Michael the Iconographer has written several threads about icons here at CF.

[Xpycoctomos]

Michael and others more knowledgeable than myself will soon come to give better answers but here's one cool thing.

Matushka at my Church went to an iconography workshop at a nearby Orthodox Monastery. First note that one does not just go and learn how to paint. One goes and is expected to spend a week participating in all (or at least most) of the prayers services with the nuns, spend time in seclusion to pray and read adn fulfull the soul. They also, of course, spend a good portion of time everyday learning to write icons and the meaning behind a lot of the stuff they do (I can't wait to go myself). Anyway, Matushka had extensive experience with painting regualr art in the past, but she told me that iconography would have been more easy to take on had she had no experience in regualr art because so many of the rules in iconography are the antithesis of rule in regular are. I'm not sure of everything she means by this (as I have no art experience) but she said one general rule is that in regualr art you learn to paint darks on top of lights... but in iconography you do it backwards... from dark to light colors and an important symbol in that is that we as Christians go from darkness into light. So, it seems to me that iconography is not ONLY about the end result, it is totally about the process as well. Writing and icon is in itself a prayer.. the very process (not jsut the image) is an exegesis on Orthodox thought and belief.

Above is only scratching the very surface of the profoundness of iconography. Hopefully others more knowledgeable will soon be in to explain more cool stuff and recommend any books that you might find useful.

John

[MariaRegina]

Michael and others more knowledgeable than myself will soon come to give better answers but here's one cool thing.

Matushka at my Church went to an iconography workshop at a nearby Orthodox Monastery. First note that one does not just go and learn how to paint. One goes and is expected to spend a week participating in all (or at least most) of the prayers services with the nuns, spend time in seclusion to pray and read adn fulfull the soul. They also, of course, spend a good portion of time everyday learning to write icons and the meaning behind a lot of the stuff they do (I can't wait to go myself). Anyway, Matushka had extensive experience with painting regualr art in the past, but she told me that iconography would have been more easy to take on had she had no experience in regualr art because so many of the rules in iconography are the antithesis of rule in regular are. I'm not sure of everything she means by this (as I have no art experience) but she said one general rule is that in regualr art you learn to paint darks on top of lights... but in iconography you do it backwards... from dark to light colors and an important symbol in that is that we as Christians go from darkness into light. So, it seems to me that iconography is not ONLY about the end result, it is totally about the process as well. Writing and icon is in itself a prayer.. the very process (not jsut the image) is an exegesis on Orthodox thought and belief.

Above is only scratching the very surface of the profoundness of iconography. Hopefully others more knowledgeable will soon be in to explain more cool stuff and recommend any books that you might find useful.

John


Great thoughts.

[Pyotr]

How can icons express sentiments against Orthodox teaching? :confused: Other than the prohibition on depiction of the First Person of the Blessed Trinity, which it would seem many have ignored without official repealment...
That particular icon is one that is not really accepted by the Church per se, but is not technically wrong, as it's supposed to be an icon of the Father as seen by the prophet Daniel as he described the "Ancient of Days" in Chapter 7. This, as I understand it, along with St. Andrei Rublev's "Hospitality," is the only depiction of the Father even allowed.



What makes an icon different from just a picture depicting God or one of the Saints? What is an icon, if not just a picture?
An icon is not just a picture; an icon is purposefully "unrealistic," that is to say, it points away from this so-called "reality" to the true reality, the "life of the world to come." Thus it serves as a window to heaven, whereby we get a glimpse of and communicate with someone who is partaking of that next and new life.

[Xpycoctomos]

That particular icon is one that is not really accepted by the Church per se, but is not technically wrong, as it's supposed to be an icon of the Father as seen by the prophet Daniel as he described the "Ancient of Days" in Chapter 7. This, as I understand it, along with St. Andrei Rublev's "Hospitality," is the only depiction of the Father even allowed.



Do you mean the "Old man"? If so, I know that i have read of councils that have specifically condemned these icons as heretical. The Greek Church (which is generally the kind of parish you will find them in if you see them in the US) no longer allows the Old Man, the guy and bird representation in any new iconography added the a Greek Parish. Not that it waas really allowed before, it's just that the Greek Church never said anything about it. Now it is specifically prohbited. So, theoretically, the onlyh times you will see this representation is in 1) Parishes that had these icons before the official prohibition or 2) Parishes that are ignorant of this prohibition or choose not to obey it.

But Maybe I am not sure what is meant by "the Ancient of Days"

John

[Unified in Christ]

Do you mean the "Old man"? If so, I know that i have read of councils that have specifically condemned these icons as heretical. The Greek Church (which is generally the kind of parish you will find them in if you see them in the US) no longer allows the Old Man, the guy and bird representation in any new iconography added the a Greek Parish. Not that it waas really allowed before, it's just that the Greek Church never said anything about it. Now it is specifically prohbited. So, theoretically, the onlyh times you will see this representation is in 1) Parishes that had these icons before the official prohibition or 2) Parishes that are ignorant of this prohibition or choose not to obey it.

But Maybe I am not sure what is meant by "the Ancient of Days"

John

The Ancient of Days:
http://www.parliament.ge/CULTURE/ART/MURAL/DAM/damia~10.jpg
(Btw, He is Jesus Christ & not the Father)

Here in Greece, there's also a number of parishes that have the icon of the old bearded man, the younger man & the bird. Do you know why it is considered as heretical? Because it has the Holy Spirit (dove), proceeding from both the Father & the Son (Filioque): The "icon" depicts the dove above the Father & the Son.

[Xpycoctomos]

I was told also that it is heretical because it shows the Father and Christ tells us that no one has seen the Father... The Ancient of Days is different (I now see). I just think, from what I've read, that there are a lot of bad things about that icon. Actually, the first time I was made aware of this was when I visited a Greek parish here in the US and the priest showed the real icont of the Trinity (the Angels) and explained and explained why the one of the Old man and the dove on their iconostasis was heretical. (!!!). They are now doing major renovations and one of them is getting a new iconstasis including an Orthodox icon of the Trinity.

John

[Robbie_James_Francis]

Thanks a lot for all the info. I guess I can understand that icons do not necessarily reflect the physical reality but rather the inner reality. Much the same as many images and statues I have or are in Catholic churches, I suppose. I doubt Our Lord always actually had light coming from His Head, or that His Heart was visible through His Flesh and Clothing, with a real Sword in It, a Crown of Thorns around It and light coming from It. ;)Rob :liturgy:

[The Prokeimenon!]

I thought the dove was okay- isn't there a dove on the Theophany icon?

There's an Icon at the Greek Church in town that is so aweful, it's got the old man Father, the mostly naked Son (with his flowing hair and rosey red cheeks) and a dove. The Priest there (who also hates the icon) said he wants to be burried with it, so that nobody ever has to look at it again :D (I can't remember his exact words, but it was something like that)

They've also got those aweful angel doors that look like women, and the St. John the Baptist icon that looks like Billy Ray Cyrus. If you can ignore the Iconostasis, it's a beautiful Church, though.

Moses

[Greg the byzantine]

Moses are you talking about icons made in a style like this

[Marjorie]

I have a Western-style paper icon of St. Marina the Great Martyr given to me by one of the nuns at the monastery and I treasure it greatly... I don't like many Western-style icons but there are a few that are completely compatible with Orthodox tradition, IMO, and this one communicates the heavenly beauty of my saint.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Matrona]

I thought the dove was okay- isn't there a dove on the Theophany icon?

There's an Icon at the Greek Church in town that is so aweful, it's got the old man Father, the mostly naked Son (with his flowing hair and rosey red cheeks) and a dove. The Priest there (who also hates the icon) said he wants to be burried with it, so that nobody ever has to look at it again :D (I can't remember his exact words, but it was something like that)

:eek: Wow, at my Greek church they also have a two-men-and-a-dove icon, but the Father and the Son are fully dressed. The Father (on Christ's right, which is WRONG in itself on account of the Ascension!) has His right foot sticking out from His robe and Christ has His left foot sticking out from His robe. And since they're sitting next to each other it's like saying they're one... so I guess it's kinda cool.

The most abominable 'depiction' of the 'Trinity' was one posted by somebody that had the old-man-Father sitting, the little-boy-Son sitting on His lap, and the dove-Spirit hovering on the Son's lap. Puke-a-tronic!

They've also got those aweful angel doors that look like women, and the St. John the Baptist icon that looks like Billy Ray Cyrus. If you can ignore the Iconostasis, it's a beautiful Church, though.

^_^ :eek: Billy Ray John...

[Unified in Christ]

I was told also that it is heretical because it shows the Father and Christ tells us that no one has seen the Father... The Ancient of Days is different (I now see). I just think, from what I've read, that there are a lot of bad things about that icon. Actually, the first time I was made aware of this was when I visited a Greek parish here in the US and the priest showed the real icont of the Trinity (the Angels) and explained and explained why the one of the Old man and the dove on their iconostasis was heretical. (!!!). They are now doing major renovations and one of them is getting a new iconstasis including an Orthodox icon of the Trinity.

John
These all have started in 1833-34, when the Bavarian Prince Otto was chosen to be our first King of the newly liberated Greek state. A number of western (Bavarians especially) artists followed the 15-year old King to teash us the "true" meaning of religious art. A neo-romantism movement spread & almost every new churh built, was written with neo-realistic, neo-romantic "icons". Thank God, since early 20th century, iconographers found the Orthodox tradition (Photios Kontoglou was the pioneer) & Manuel Panselinos & Theophanis the Cretan were "re-discovered".

[VickiY]

Another thing that no one has mentioned (forgive me if it has been mentioned before on other threads) is that our icons are BLESSED. The icons we have in our homes should be blessed in church after we receive them, and the icons in the iconostasis are actually blessed with chrism, as well.

Getting my vote for THE worst icon is a toss up...but I think I will go with one I call the "shazam!" icon of God the Father, barefoot, in long white robe, "flying" down from above the iconostasis, long grey hair streaming, and arms outstretched as he flies head down from Heaven. The OCA priest whose church it is in loathes it. Second choice for "worst" icon are those produced by people who have no understanding of iconography, and so, put the letters which denote the Theotokos on the top of every female saint. DREADFUL!

Vicki

[Michael the Iconographer]

:wave: Greetings! :)

I hope this hasn't been brought up recently on TAW;I had a look around the first couple of pages and couldn't find anything. If it has been answered, please do tell me where I can find it and, if you're a mod, feel free to delete this thread. Thanks. :) I was looking through another thread and didn't want to hijack it (bad habit of mine)...
[list]
Why are icons "written" and not drawn? I might just be getting into pointless semantics, but I have a feeling there may be a reason for the use of this word...:scratch:


I have just written an essay on this topic and if you can wait a week or two until it is finished being edited I will post it here for people to read. Icons are written because the author of all icons is God and they teach theology through color. They are dynamic letters of love between God and man, as my essay will explain. Icons are thus not signed because I as the iconographer am not the creator of the image, I am rather the humble tool that God uses to create the icon.

[Robbie_James_Francis]

I have just written an essay on this topic and if you can wait a week or two until it is finished being edited I will post it here for people to read. Icons are written because the author of all icons is God and they teach theology through color. They are dynamic letters of love between God and man, as my essay will explain. Icons are thus not signed because I as the iconographer am not the creator of the image, I am rather the humble tool that God uses to create the icon.

Thanks! I look forward to reading your essay. :) :thumbsup: :hug: