The Sword of the Prophet

[Dust and Ashes]

The Sword of the Prophet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1928653111/qid=1121119965/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_ur_1/102-8292792-8060956?v=glance&s=books&n=507846) by Serge Trifkovic. I picked it up at Church yesterday and though what I'm reading is pretty disturbing, I can't put it down. I'm not even 100 pages into it but it is very well written and easy to read and I think it's something every Christian should read if for no other reason that to help understand the Islamic mind.

Has anyone else read it?

[Dust and Ashes]

It really gives me a deeper appreciation of our God Who loves us, Who is Love and it fills me with deep pity for Muslims. :cry:

[The Prokeimenon!]

I've seen that book in Orthodox bookstores before. We have a few books on Islam, that I've yet to read. If I could replace what I feel for Muslims (after the London bombing) with pity, that would at least be a step in the right direction...


LK

[Theophorus]

I've seen it and a couple of others sitting in our bookstore, but I am not ready to read them yet.

[MariaRegina]

Yes, I have done research with it, but did not read it through.

It is disturbing and I firmly believe that we must pray as we read it so as not to judge and to fall into hatred. We really need to pray for the conversion of the muslims. We cannot hate them but must love them in the Lord if they are to be converted and saved.

The greatest joy for me is to meet former muslims who have converted to Christianity. I was blessed to meet and hear the Orthodox Priest who started the Indonesian missions. I think he may be a Bishop now. Anyway he was so inspirational and reminded me of the Apostle Paul. He escaped from death so many times and was imprisoned for his faith.

His conversion story was printed in Again Magazine a few years ago along with an excellent article on evangelizing the muslims written by Terry Frazier. Incidentally, it was a protestant missionary who converted him to Christianity. When he was studying Christianity to evangelize his own people, he then found Orthodoxy.

If you can get a hold of a reprint, it would help put this book into perspective.

[Moros]

Having read the Koran several times and, for a period, being heavily interested in Islam, I've never felt a compelling desire to read any of these books. I'm also wary of religious books which talk about other religions, mainly because of seeing so much slander and not a whole lot of objectivity.

[jameseb]

Having read the Koran several times and, for a period, being heavily interested in Islam, I've never felt a compelling desire to read any of these books. I'm also wary of religious books which talk about other religions, mainly because of seeing so much slander and not a whole lot of objectivity.


I've never completely read through the Koran, but I have read the hadiths... I've read with my own eyes how vile and wretched they are.

As for the OP, I haven't heard of the book before. Thank you for the tip!

[Kolya]

I've seen that book in Orthodox bookstores before. We have a few books on Islam, that I've yet to read. If I could replace what I feel for Muslims (after the London bombing) with pity, that would at least be a step in the right direction...
LK

Moses, your feelings are understandable. But Christ taught us we have to love our enemies. He loves every moslem, though He hates the false religion. He would that all come to repentance. I do however understand.

As to who is responsible for the London atrocities, we'll only know when we reach the Kingdom. I pray that God may have mercy on their souls on the Day of Judgement, the same that I pray for mercy for the souls of those who martyered our Saints in Russia last century.:crosseo:

[Marjorie]

Having read the Koran several times and, for a period, being heavily interested in Islam, I've never felt a compelling desire to read any of these books. I'm also wary of religious books which talk about other religions, mainly because of seeing so much slander and not a whole lot of objectivity.

You must have a stronger stomach than I do. I read the Qur'an once (in translation obviously) and really have no desire to read it again for a long, long time.

But I do want to read some relatively objective books on Muslim history. They either seem to be like "BAD MUSLIMS EVIL KILL US OH NO!!!" or "Muslims are gentle and peaceful creatures who enjoy frolicking through meadows with elves." I'm guessing the truth is somewhere in the middle but the issue is too charged for the 'scholarship' to be objective these days, I guess.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Mary of Bethany]

I recently read it and have loaned it to a co-worker. It will not give you warm fuzzies about Islam, but in my opinion it is not at all hateful toward Muslims.


Mary

[Orthosdoxa]

Pssst...Kolya... note the initials at the end... that was me. :blush:

[gord96]

I talk with some muslims on another web forum and to have any bad feeling towards muslims as a whole is the wrong way to look at things......there are extreme fundamentalist muslims just like there is extreme fundamentalist christians....to have malice in your heart towards them is not a good way to approach Islam......all muslims I talk to are very much agaisnt terrorism that many extremists use today and some are members of a coalition against those radicals that blow themselves up in the name of God.....

[Dust and Ashes]

I recently read it and have loaned it to a co-worker. It will not give you warm fuzzies about Islam, but in my opinion it is not at all hateful toward Muslims.


Mary

That's the impression I get. It seems to be written more like a documentary on Islam to me. It still doesn't give me much comfort to read the clear teachings of Islam regarding the treatment of Christians and Jews as well as any other non-Muslim group.

The most disturbing thing to me is the Muslim understanding of God and man's "relationship" with Allah, etc. It does make it easier to understand why things are the way they are in the Islamic world, however. It doesn't make me hate Muslims, it makes me pity them and helps me to see them not as hateful fanatics but as misguided and decieved by Satan.

And as I've already said, it really helps me appreciate the fact that Christ, our God really and truely loves us. God is Love. It is a very stark contrast to consider Christ after reading about Allah. A contrast that makes me deeply thankful. :crosseo: :bow:

[Kolya]

Pssst...Kolya... note the initials at the end... that was me. :blush:

:doh: :blush: Sorry Anony!:sorry:

[Kolya]

It doesn't make me hate Muslims, it makes me pity them and helps me to see them not as hateful fanatics but as misguided and decieved by Satan.

And as I've already said, it really helps me appreciate the fact that Christ, our God really and truely loves us. God is Love. It is a very stark contrast to consider Christ after reading about Allah. A contrast that makes me deeply thankful.

You know, I grew up in the land of Apartheid. It was not pretty. I learned tolerance at the age of 16 on a trip to the States. Unfortunatly, it took my parents a while longer.
The time came when all of us collectivly had to learn tolerance, and how to live together peacably. It's no bed of roses, there are still many injustices to right, but we've come a long way.
The point I'm trying to make, is that when our President was inaugerated after elections last year, there were five prayers said on the Rostrum by:- an Ethnic (Ancesteral Spirit Worshipper), a Hindu, a Moslem, A Rabbi and a woman Christian Anglican Priest.
I know it was all "PC", but it just goes to show, we should not have any prejudices against anyone regardless of race or religion.
There are religious fanatics amongst all religions, and 'Christians' have been known to plant bombs in European cities in the recent past.

[Dust and Ashes]

There are religious fanatics amongst all religions, and 'Christians' have been known to plant bombs in European cities in the recent past.

The frightening thing is that the bombers and decapitators are the sincere Muslims who follow Muhammed's example, while the peace-talkers and compromisers are referred to as "hypocrites." I know many teach that Islam is a religion of peace and that the "extremists" are misreading and misusing the Koran but it clearly teaches that infidels must be killed if they will not convert or they must pay a hefty tax and live as 3rd class citizens. It's pretty much at the discretion of the Islamic leader, which is also following Muhammed's example. He often recieved "revelations" that suited his personal desires at the moment.

The teaching that jihad refers to some inner struggle against sin was added after Islam had conquered most of that Arabic world and there was no one left weak enough to conquer. Of course nominal Muslim clerics can find verses to support their position that Islam is peaceful because there are so many conflicting teachings which changed over the course of Muhammed's life. Allah often abrogated previous revelations when it became necessary to facilitate Muhammed's...err I mean Allah's will. But none of this can be questioned by a Muslin since it is a grave sin to apply critical thinking to the Koran.

It is a tragedy that these people have been so misled by this religion. Heinious acts are not only condoned but encouraged. Conversion or death was the choice Muhammed gave infidels. Well, until he realized that he would soon run out of people to pillage so he started letting some people live and just taxing them heavily.


"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad, chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or to have their hands and feet chopped off on opposite sides, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)

"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)

"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)

"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)

I realize that there are many Muslims who know no other faith and yet desire to live in peace but that is not what true Islam teaches. I also know a bit about racial prejudice, growing up in rural Mississippi and I and thankful that there have been many changes made. Of course they don't go far enough and other spiritual abherrations are moving in to replace racism but I can stomach some of them better than I can racism.

I really do feel a deep pity for Muslims. Even the true Muslims who seek the global spread of Islam by whatever means is necessary. I know this will be percieved as anti-Muslim and I will likely even be warned or have the post deleted.

And yes, I know there are religious fanatics among all faiths and yes, there have been bombings by Christians but anyone can clearly see that Christ did not teach or practice conversion by violence or war against those who refuse to believe. Islam clearly does teach this regardless of what "moderates" may say.

I'm sorry for taking an argumentative tone but I'm tired of seeing everyone treat Islam as if the extremist militants are the same as extremist militant Christians who are violating Christ's teachings. The "extremist" militant Muslims are just following the example of their Prophet when they slaughter people and cut off people's heads.

Forgive me,

[Kolya]

I'm sorry for taking an argumentative tone but I'm tired of seeing everyone treat Islam as if the extremist militants are the same as extremist militant Christians who are violating Christ's teachings. The "extremist" militant Muslims are just following the example of their Prophet when they slaughter people and cut off people's heads.Forgive me,

No need to apologise. I agree totally with what you're saying. Our Beloved Church has suffered many centuries of torment by their hand. I know what Muhammed advocated and it is Demonic by our standards. I agree with what you said:

I realize that there are many Muslims who know no other faith and yet desire to live in peace but that is not what true Islam teaches...It is a tragedy that these people have been so misled by this religion.


I have to live and work with them though, and most that I know just want to be left in peace.:)

[The Prokeimenon!]

The frightening thing is that the bombers and decapitators are the sincere Muslims who follow Muhammed's example, while the peace-talkers and compromisers are referred to as "hypocrites."

I agree. I haven't read the koran (though I have 2 copies floating around the house- in case of a restroom emergency) but it would seem to me that "radical, fundamentalist, extremist" islam is true islam, and that the "religion of peace" islam is a Westernized pop version of islam.

Moses

[Marjorie]

The Qur'an (sorry to any Muslims reading this) is full of contradictions. At times it seems very militant towards nonbelievers, even shockingly so, and at times it seems very kind and tolerant towards them (Christians and Jews generally), even remarkably so. But to characterize either position as the ONLY one of the Qur'an is unfair and dishonest.

The Qur'an was written over an extended period of time. One might think of Martin Luther, who started out with a conciliatory position towards the Jews and then became very militant towards them. I think it's reasonable to suppose that Muhammad (or later followers, there's disagreement about where we get the current form of the Qur'an) changed his position.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Dust and Ashes]

The Qur'an (sorry to any Muslims reading this) is full of contradictions. At times it seems very militant towards nonbelievers, even shockingly so, and at times it seems very kind and tolerant towards them (Christians and Jews generally), even remarkably so. But to characterize either position as the ONLY one of the Qur'an is unfair and dishonest.

The Qur'an was written over an extended period of time. One might think of Martin Luther, who started out with a conciliatory position towards the Jews and then became very militant towards them. I think it's reasonable to suppose that Muhammad (or later followers, there's disagreement about where we get the current form of the Qur'an) changed his position.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

That's one of the things that is brought out in the book, how Muhammed received revelations that contradicted earlier revelations so he would say that Allah had abrogated the earlier revelation. It seems that his early tolerance for Jews and Christians was because he figured they would see the light and accept him. When this didn't happen, he changed his attitude towards them.

I could be wrong but the impression I get is that the latest revelations are the most relevant or the most correct, though I'm not sure how that is figured in Islam. I don't know if the "abrogated" revelations are even still included in the current version or what.

[Maximus]

I think it was and is a BIG mistake to let Muslims settle in historically non-Muslim regions (like the U.S.). I know some will say, "They're not all bad; most of them just want to live in peace, etc."

But who can tell which ones those are? Wait until the bad ones identify themselves through acts of mass murder?

And if it comes to armed conflict between the original citizens of an historically non-Muslim region and armed Muslim terrorists or invaders, on whose side will the "peaceful" Muslims be?

Pluralism may yet be the death or enslavement of us all.

How long can the human body remain healthy and function normally if its immune system refuses to recognize and eliminate threats?

How long can our societies remain healthy and function normally if they refuse to recognize and eliminate threats?

Why are we settling the enemy among us? Why are there mosques in nearly every city, town, and village?

[Dust and Ashes]

I think it was and is a BIG mistake to let Muslims settle in historically non-Muslim regions (like the U.S.). I know some will say, "They're not all bad; most of them just want to live in peace, etc."

But who can tell which ones those are? Wait until the bad ones identify themselves through acts of mass murder?

And if it comes to armed conflict between the original citizens of an historically non-Muslim region and armed Muslim terrorists or invaders, on whose side will the "peaceful" Muslims be?

Pluralism may yet be the death or enslavement of us all.

How long can the human body remain healthy and function normally if its immune system refuses to recognize threats?

How long can our societies remain healthy and function normally if they refuse to recognize threats?

Why are we settling the enemy among us? Why are there mosques in nearly every city, town, and village?

One of the first things Muhammed taught was that Islam "breaks all bonds" of family, nation, race, etc. A Muslim's first loyalty is to Islam.

[Maximus]

One of the first things Muhammed taught was that Islam "breaks all bonds" of family, nation, race, etc. A Muslim's first loyalty is to Islam.

Exactly.

That is why no more Muslims should be allowed to settle in the U.S. and other historically non-Muslim areas.

Theirs is not a benign, peaceful religion. It is a religion of conquest, coercion, and domination.

[Marjorie]

One of the first things Muhammed taught was that Islam "breaks all bonds" of family, nation, race, etc. A Muslim's first loyalty is to Islam.

But that's just the shadow of the Truth... just as we are called to be loyal to Christ above race, family, nation (cf. bringing a sword and not peace), so Satan mimics this quality in false religions. Satan's at his best as a copycat.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Islam is a preversion of Christianity... and they are waiting to kill you...

No bones about it...

[The Prokeimenon!]

(Anonykat here)

Ask the middle-eastern refugees at my parish who recently fled their homeland, how Islam commands them to be treated... whose family has been Christian since the beginning, and whose ancestors were cruelly persecuted ever since Muhammed invented Islam, (when he was evidently on a bad acid trip).

PS to Gord - I'm not saying my attitude was right - if you read what I said, you might notice I was implying it needs improvement, because Muslims are human beings with the image of God stamped on them, just as much as anyone else, and to hate them is a serious sin. We NEED to pity them. They are in a religion founded by the devil himself, who truly thinks what is evil is good and what is good is evil. Peaceful Islam exists mainly in the west - it is Islam Lite. If one reads the Koran (I've read maybe a 10th of it), one sees that peace was the last thing on Muhammed's mind. And those trapped in the religion of murder and death, even if they are not practicing those things themselves, desparately need the healing Truth of the Gospel.

LK

[Kolya]

I'm posting this article here as it goes with the general theme of the OP.
I'm making no comment myself. You judge for yourself.
Kolya


http://www.news24.com/News24/World/Londonattacks/0,,2-10-1854_1737480,00.html


Prince Charles calls on Muslims

14/07/2005 10:54 (SA)



London - Prince Charles has called on Britain's Muslims to weed out the radicals among them who preach hatred.

Echoing the statements of government leaders in the wake of the London bombings, Charles said in a commentary published on Thursday that such attacks are a perversion of Islam.

"It is the duty of every true Muslim to condemn these atrocities and root out those among them who preach and practice such hatred and bitterness," Charles said in a commentary published in Thursday's editions of the Daily Mirror.

"Muslims will do this not because of their faith, but because it is the duty of us all to respect and uphold the law," Charles said.

He said that Islam was not the cause of the terrorism, and most Muslims had condemned the atrocities.

"Some may think this cause is Islam. It is anything but. It is a perversion of traditional Islam," he said. :scratch:

[Axion]

I think it was and is a BIG mistake to let Muslims settle in historically non-Muslim regions (like the U.S.). I know some will say, "They're not all bad; most of them just want to live in peace, etc."

But who can tell which ones those are? Wait until the bad ones identify themselves through acts of mass murder?

....Why are we settling the enemy among us? Why are there mosques in nearly every city, town, and village?

Exactly.

The problem is that this is all ONE WAY TRAFFIC. Millions of Muslims have settled in Europe. they demand full civil rights, to build mosques, to establish schools, to convert the locals. They openly say they want to make these land Muslim in a few years. Meanwhile in their own lands none of these rights are allowed to Christians.

In most muslim lands most of the surviving Christians are being driven out, the rest live in fear, with no right to build new churches, no right to convert muslims or to preach.

There has to be a quid pro quo, where until Christians are allowed to settle, live worship and preach freely in all muslim-dominated lands, they aren't allowed the same in the Christian world.

[Shubunkin]

I was wondering just this morning why more Muslims do not condemn these violent acts more, and "disown" those Muslims who are intent on these things. There needs to be a lot more put forth in the media, and certainly at their own mosques to condemn these things. I know that some are, but so far have yet to hear anything more than an occasional Muslim on TV saying it. Maybe if the violent ones were "excommunicated" from their brethren it would get their attention.

[Dust and Ashes]

I was wondering just this morning why more Muslims do not condemn these violent acts more, and "disown" those Muslims who are intent on these things. There needs to be a lot more put forth in the media, and certainly at their own mosques to condemn these things. I know that some are, but so far have yet to hear anything more than an occasional Muslim on TV saying it. Maybe if the violent ones were "excommunicated" from their brethren it would get their attention.

That's just the thing. They can't disown or excommunicate the people doing this because they are just following the teachings of Islam to kill the infidels "wherever you find them." As Majorie has said, the Qu'ran is full of contradictions. It does say to treat people kindly and practice tolerance but it also clearly says to kill those who are not Muslim and will not convert to Islam.

These terrorists are merely following Muhammed's example. It is like the young Orthodox Russian soldier who was captured with his unit by Muslims. They were given the option to convert to Islam or die. All but him converted and were spared. He refused to renounce Christ and was killed.

I know there are Muslims who just want to live in peace but that is not part of Islam. It is not a religion of peace and tolerance, regardless of what some Muslims might say. I know many Christians who will swear that the Eucharist is symbolic, as is baptism and they have proof-texts from Scripture to prove it. That doesn't make those doctrines true or a part of true Christianity.

[Marjorie]

I think the problem with excommunication is, first of all, that there is nothing to excommunicate one from... there are no sacraments to withhold. And so all Muslims can categorize "communion" as is meeting together in groups (like in non-sacramental Protestantism.) Islam is as split-up into sects as Christianity is (which is ironic, as the Qur'an seems to use Christianity's fragmentation as proof that it has apostasized), so why should a radical Wahhabi Muslim care if some liberal "all religions are good!!!" Muslim in the US says "he is not a Muslim"? The radical Wahhabi would just continue meeting with his radical Wahhabi friends and would go to masjids with radical Wahhabi imams. So there's no way to excommunicate them.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Rilian]

The Salafists, who represent the vanguard of the extremist face of Islam, regard that vast majority of Muslims as apostates.

[Shubunkin]

So there's no way to excommunicate them.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

I couldn't think of another word to use... it was the closest to use that I was thinking of. Perhaps "expel" or ... :confused: don't know what it would be called. The idea is they should be condemned by their own. Being condemned by their "enemy" will never work.

[Shubunkin]

That's just the thing. They can't disown or excommunicate the people doing this because they are just following the teachings of Islam to kill the infidels "wherever you find them." As Majorie has said, the Qu'ran is full of contradictions. It does say to treat people kindly and practice tolerance but it also clearly says to kill those who are not Muslim and will not convert to Islam.

These terrorists are merely following Muhammed's example. It is like the young Orthodox Russian soldier who was captured with his unit by Muslims. They were given the option to convert to Islam or die. All but him converted and were spared. He refused to renounce Christ and was killed.

I know there are Muslims who just want to live in peace but that is not part of Islam. It is not a religion of peace and tolerance, regardless of what some Muslims might say. I know many Christians who will swear that the Eucharist is symbolic, as is baptism and they have proof-texts from Scripture to prove it. That doesn't make those doctrines true or a part of true Christianity.

I read somewhere that Islam will take over our country in a few short years, and also Europe... being the fastest growing religion of all. Whether they be peaceful Muslims, or tolerant, they are safe from the terrorist types in any event, and it seems to me if they remain silent, then they are on their side anyway.