Faith Without Deeds is Dead!

[Disciple in Christ]

Who among you believes he is saved? How can anyone say, "I am saved," when that person does not keep God's commandments or obey God's teaching? There are still many Christians who believe that they are saved because they merely 'believe' in Jesus Christ, but I say to you, define what belief is. Is belief merely a tongue service? Is belief in Jesus Christ saying, "I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins," and that being true salvation? Are you saved because you have said this with your mouth, but then continue being a lover of yourself, a lover of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to God, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not a lover of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, a lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God -- having a form of godliness but denying its power?

No! That is like a sick man who finds a good doctor and says, "Doctor, tell me how I can be cured of this illness," and listens to his response.

The doctor tells him the reason why he is sick and to discontinue doing those things that have made him ill and then he tells him how he can be healed: "Take this medicine seven times a day, and I tell you the truth, you will be cured in a month's time, if you obey all that I have told you." The patient doesn't realize how lucky he is, because this is the only doctor who knows this prescription and can cure his illness and save him from death.

And then the patient, well-pleased with his response, leaves the doctor's office rejoicing, but when he gets back out in the world, he doesn't do anything he said. He doesn't repent of all the things that have made him ill, he only regrets that he still does these things, and he doesn't take the medicine the amount of times in one day as he was told. The first day afterwards he took the pill seven times a day as he was instructed, but as the days follow, he decides to take the pill whenever he wants and as few as he wants. However, the patient still believes in his doctor.

Months later, the patient is on the borderline of death, and his relatives go up and say to him, "Why are you dying? Didn't you say that your doctor was a good doctor? Why, then, are you lying on your deathbed?"

And the patient replied, "I do believe in my doctor. I believe in my doctor so much, that I know I will not die and will be saved." And then the patient dies.

His relatives and those who are sick with the same illness begin to grumble among one another and say, "Surely that doctor was a sham!" And they all go off seeking other doctors, not realizing that it was merely the patient who was outright disobedient.

Whoever has a spiritual ear, let him hear what the parable means.

[FaithAlone]

Yes you are so right! If you do not have works to accompany your faith then you have missed the point because when you understand that you are a sinner in need of a Savior and accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you will do good things because you are a new creature. On the flipside though you have to realize that no amount of works will ever get you saved and good works won't keep you saved either. It's all about letting Christ come into your life and letting Him lead you. If He is working in you then doing His work will just be a natural response. If you believe that you are saved and are struggling with working for Christ then you need to have another look at your salvation too and make sure that you aren't trusting in yourself.

[New_Wineskin]

Who among you believes he is saved? How can anyone say, "I am saved," when that person does not keep God's commandments or obey God's teaching?

Great . Back to observing the Law to obtain righteousness .

[FaithAlone]

Great . Back to observing the Law to obtain righteousness .



As long as he meant "love the Lord your God with all that you are" and "love your neighbor" then I'm cool with keeping the commandments :) It's not a necessity for salvation though. It's a natural response to an encounter with Christ.

[Lynn73]

Yes you are so right! If you do not have works to accompany your faith then you have missed the point because when you understand that you are a sinner in need of a Savior and accept Christ as your Lord and Savior, you will do good things because you are a new creature. On the flipside though you have to realize that no amount of works will ever get you saved and good works won't keep you saved either. It's all about letting Christ come into your life and letting Him lead you. If He is working in you then doing His work will just be a natural response. If you believe that you are saved and are struggling with working for Christ then you need to have another look at your salvation too and make sure that you aren't trusting in yourself.

Just because someone is strugglling doesn't mean they aren't saved. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 If I'm struggling I don't need to examine my salvation, I need to rely more and more on Christ. Where did you get the idea that struggling is a sign of not being saved? Not from Scripture.


Great . Back to observing the Law to obtain righteousness .

My sentiments exactly. Wanting to keep God's commandments is a result of being saved, not the means of gettings saved. We obviously couldn't keep God's laws perfectly or there wouldn't be a Jesus and a cross.

[all things through Christ]

A lot of what Disciple in Christ says is supported by Scripture. Like we have to hate our family and even our own life to follow Him. It doesn't seem like hating your life if you follow all the desires of the flesh. And what about the point of Christianity? To become like Christ and live by His love.


Yes, He says if someone believes they will be saved. But what does it mean to believe? How can someone who lives a life like that believe? Only when they are deceived and do not have Truth in them. Someone who tastes Christ will not only believe, but it is not possible for that person to turn away. I think that if you really believe, you'll do certain things. Most importantly seek a relationship with God and then, only through His power, have faith, works, love, etc.

One of the huge problems here, I believe, is that many people (at least I was) are told they need to accept Christ and say they are saved and they will be. But it doesn't matter what any Christian or church has to say about it. The only thing that matters is what God has to say. And He does so in His Word. I believe that someone who is saved will not have any doubt about it.

If someone claims to be a Christian but has no evidence of the Holy Spirit living in them, or does not walk in His ways, it becomes doubtfull. I think there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians but no one can even tell in the slightest that they are. But we have to evaluate our purpose in this. We don't want to condemn others (only God does that), we want to build them up. The best way is showing others God's love and having evidence (Him working in us) of the Holy Spirit in us.

Also, God says we should take the narrow path that leads to life (and few find it). If everyone who claims to be Christian is, indeed, a Christian, it hardly seems like a narrow path that few find, to me. But we should always build each other up! And yes, it does include rebuking each other.

[all things through Christ]

Just because someone is strugglling doesn't mean they aren't saved. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 If I'm struggling I don't need to examine my salvation, I need to rely more and more on Christ. Where did you get the idea that struggling is a sign of not being saved? Not from Scripture.

Well I don't think she meant struggling. She meant when we don't turn to God (that is only possible when we don't believe everything He says) in our circumstances then it is doubtfull we really are saved. And yes, it is all God's doing. We can only accept His Spirit and learn to love and share the love He gives us with Himself, sometimes through others. I agree with you saying you need to rely more and more on Christ. This is really the point, and the point of our struggles, too. And you should put the book, chapter, and verse before the quote, with quotation marks around the quote (I think that's the right format any ways) for future reference. I'm not disagreeing with anyone here, just stating what I believe (and what Disciple in Christ most likely meant).

My sentiments exactly. Wanting to keep God's commandments is a result of being saved, not the means of gettings saved. We obviously couldn't keep God's laws perfectly or there wouldn't be a Jesus and a cross.

Yes! for example king David, speaking from the Holy Spirit, tells us how much he delights and takes pleasure in God's law. He meditates on it day and night. When we enjoy, and it is our hearts desire to follow His commandments, we know we have divine help because our intelligence cannot understand His laws!



Psalms 119:96 "I realize that everything has its limits, but your commands are beyond full comprehension."

[Asaph]

You can eat of that tree all you want. I will have nothing to do with it.

Asaph

[Stinker]

Who among you believes he is saved? How can anyone say, "I am saved," when that person does not keep God's commandments or obey God's teaching? There are still many Christians who believe that they are saved because they merely 'believe' in Jesus Christ, but I say to you, define what belief is. Is belief merely a tongue service? Is belief in Jesus Christ saying, "I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins," and that being true salvation? Are you saved because you have said this with your mouth, but then continue being a lover of yourself, a lover of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to God, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not a lover of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, a lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God -- having a form of godliness but denying its power?

No! That is like a sick man who finds a good doctor and says, "Doctor, tell me how I can be cured of this illness," and listens to his response.

The doctor tells him the reason why he is sick and to discontinue doing those things that have made him ill and then he tells him how he can be healed: "Take this medicine seven times a day, and I tell you the truth, you will be cured in a month's time, if you obey all that I have told you." The patient doesn't realize how lucky he is, because this is the only doctor who knows this prescription and can cure his illness and save him from death.

And then the patient, well-pleased with his response, leaves the doctor's office rejoicing, but when he gets back out in the world, he doesn't do anything he said. He doesn't repent of all the things that have made him ill, he only regrets that he still does these things, and he doesn't take the medicine the amount of times in one day as he was told. The first day afterwards he took the pill seven times a day as he was instructed, but as the days follow, he decides to take the pill whenever he wants and as few as he wants. However, the patient still believes in his doctor.

Months later, the patient is on the borderline of death, and his relatives go up and say to him, "Why are you dying? Didn't you say that your doctor was a good doctor? Why, then, are you lying on your deathbed?"

And the patient replied, "I do believe in my doctor. I believe in my doctor so much, that I know I will not die and will be saved." And then the patient dies.

His relatives and those who are sick with the same illness begin to grumble among one another and say, "Surely that doctor was a sham!" And they all go off seeking other doctors, not realizing that it was merely the patient who was outright disobedient.

Whoever has a spiritual ear, let him hear what the parable means.

What is missing is the supernatural!

There is nothing supernatural in this 'comparative' story. No work of the Holy Spirit upon the Doctor's patients at all.

What New Testament belief consists of is the (intellect) & the (will).

One example of (belief) without the will is (Jn.12:42-43): Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

One example of (belief) without the intellect or knowledge is (Rom.10:2): For I testify about them that they have a zeal for God; but not in accordance with knowledge.

[WesWoodell]

Great . Back to observing the Law to obtain righteousness .



Are you kidding?

Great post, Disciple. :)

[Shannonkish]

me thinks this is a drive-by post.

[Forest]

Great . Back to observing the Law to obtain righteousness .

Romans 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

[all things through Christ]

Romans 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Yeah, we never get righteousness from observing the Law. But we will want to do it and have the strength with God's help. Sin is something that is not God's will. Anything that doesn't follow His will is not perfect.

[lismore]

Great . Back to observing the Law to obtain righteousness .

Hi:wave:

I agree

Once you are saved the Holy SPirit works in you.

If one person doesnt 'seem' to be doing the same works as you, what does this matter? Its between the believer and the Lord.

Faith without works is dead, but what are the works God requires? To believe in the one he has sent. Theres no quota of good deeds to be done before or after salvation, because there are no good works. What is not done in faith is sin and you cant have faith unless you believe.

:)

[New_Wineskin]

Hi:wave:

I agree

Once you are saved the Holy SPirit works in you.

If one person doesnt 'seem' to be doing the same works as you, what does this matter? Its between the believer and the Lord.

Faith without works is dead, but what are the works God requires? To believe in the one he has sent. Theres no quota of good deeds to be done before or after salvation, because there are no good works. What is not done in faith is sin and you cant have faith unless you believe.

:)

Hey !! We agree ! :) Most likely on many things .

Once a person starts doing works simply because they consider that faith without works is dead , they take faith out of the equation and the works are dead because of the motivation itself . The works come naturally from faith . There is no need for a thread like this except to remove faith and insert Law .

[New_Wineskin]

Romans 6:15 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=6&verse=15&version=9&context=verse)
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Of course , sin has nothing to do what I wrote . Sin is not defined by the Law for those who are not under it . It is defined by the Spirit by those wh oare under Him .

[New_Wineskin]

As long as he meant "love the Lord your God with all that you are" and "love your neighbor" then I'm cool with keeping the commandments :) It's not a necessity for salvation though. It's a natural response to an encounter with Christ.

I agree . Telling people that they must do things takes faith out of the system or places it in an unimportant role .

[Lynn73]

If someone claims to be a Christian but has no evidence of the Holy Spirit living in them, or does not walk in His ways, it becomes doubtfull. I think there are a lot of people who claim to be Christians but no one can even tell in the slightest that they are. But we have to evaluate our purpose in this. We don't want to condemn others (only God does that), we want to build them up. The best way is showing others God's love and having evidence (Him working in us) of the Holy Spirit in us.


I can see your point here. Nowadays the term "Christian" can mean different things to different people. Someone's claims to be a Christian doesn't necessarily make it so, especially if their idea of being a Christian means being good or being born into a Christian family/nation, or going to church, etc. There should definitely be some kind of evidence in the life, no matter how small it may be. You have to ask someone what they mean when they use the term "Christian" instead of assuming it's the biblical definition.

[ItsGr82BSaved]

The most important thing to celebrate is that you are saved. AND it was bu nothing...NOTHING....that you did or will do. It is ALL ABOUT what God did and does. To claim that any action on your part contributes to salvation would be to claim that you helped save yourself. And that is impossible. There would have been no need for Christ to come and die on the cross.

However, to merely have faith an not endeavor to follow Jesus' living example would be a misuse of the God given talents and skills you have. The law was never created for us to woship, but to provide a guidpost for how we should comport ourselves as God's Children. The Law is how God will judge us. We are all guilty. Jesus will step in with our heavenly "voucher" and we then can know the paradise of being with the Father.

Think about this as far as deeds HAVING to accompany faith. When the thief on the cross next to Jesus asked to be remembered. Jesus didn't say, "Go and do..." He said that the thief would be with him. It was because of the thief's humble faith in Jesus.

Works are important because they are a way for us to reach the lost and to help other brothers and sisters strengthen their faith. But they will NEVER be required for salvation.

[FaithAlone]

Just because someone is strugglling doesn't mean they aren't saved. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8-9 If I'm struggling I don't need to examine my salvation, I need to rely more and more on Christ. Where did you get the idea that struggling is a sign of not being saved? Not from Scripture.



I didn't mean what you thought I meant. I never said that struggling was a sign that someone wasn't saved. I think everyone would be in a lot of trouble if that were the case. I meant that if you feel like you have to work to stay saved and if your works are difficult and a struggle and you find no joy in them, you need to look at your conversion and make sure that you 1. have accepted Christ as your Lord and Savior and 2. are relying on Him to work in you and not you doing all of the work. Looking at your conversion to be sure that you have made a commitment to Christ doesn't mean you aren't saved. It's just a reality check that many people don't do. I thought I was saved for years because I was doing good things for God, but I was doing them all on my own power and had never accepted Him as my Lord and Savior.

[Forest]

........ It is defined by the Spirit by those wh oare under Him .

Help me understand what you are saying here?

[all things through Christ]

Hi:wave:

I agree

Once you are saved the Holy SPirit works in you.

If one person doesnt 'seem' to be doing the same works as you, what does this matter? Its between the believer and the Lord.

Faith without works is dead, but what are the works God requires? To believe in the one he has sent. Theres no quota of good deeds to be done before or after salvation, because there are no good works. What is not done in faith is sin and you cant have faith unless you believe.

:)

Yeah, but I think the point is that if we believe with all our being what the Bible says there is not question as to the way we will live our lives. We will want to do works, and stuff like that.

[holo]

I've been to the "doctor" alright, and I did all he ordered me to do - read the bible so and so often, praying so and so hard, burning my record collection, all that.
The "doctor" here is the church, the christian culture, zealous preachers.

But you know what? I didn't heal or liberate me AT ALL.
Quite the opposite, in fact. It locked me in a cage of selfrighteousness alternating with self-loathing, religiosity, shame, guilt, FEAR, doubt - basically everything that is not a fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus doesn't give you medicine - he makes you a new creation.

Don't you ever accept the tiniest shred of legalism. It's cancer. I neither can nor will ever go back to christianity as I know it. I'd rather be a drug addict again.
Drugs kill your emotions, your mind. Legalism and religion strangles your very Spirit.

It's all grace and NOTHING BUT grace. Not an iota to boast about, not a speck of our own righteousness.

Don't assume there's some kind of "middle road" in this. Grace mixed up with anything else is no longer grace. Beware of the sourdough of the pharisees. They're not an extinct race.

[jasperbound]

As long as he meant "love the Lord your God with all that you are" and "love your neighbor" then I'm cool with keeping the commandments :) It's not a necessity for salvation though. It's a natural response to an encounter with Christ.

Amen! We are in a relationship with God. When I'm in a relationship with anybody and I truly love them, that love will manifest itself in actions for them. After all, if I say I love my wife and I live my life as though she doesn't exist, one has to wonder how much I really love her. Same with if I say I love her and then betray her and hurt her and treat her terribly.

Besides, even I were in a relationship with the most liberal, lenient, hippy new age progressive carefree wife, she'd expect something from me (i.e. there'd be "rules"). If that's legalism, then everything besides complete acceptance of all actions is legalism.

[Asaph]

I've been to the "doctor" alright, and I did all he ordered me to do - read the bible so and so often, praying so and so hard, burning my record collection, all that.
The "doctor" here is the church, the christian culture, zealous preachers.

But you know what? I didn't heal or liberate me AT ALL.
Quite the opposite, in fact. It locked me in a cage of selfrighteousness alternating with self-loathing, religiosity, shame, guilt, FEAR, doubt - basically everything that is not a fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus doesn't give you medicine - he makes you a new creation.

Don't you ever accept the tiniest shred of legalism. It's cancer. I neither can nor will ever go back to christianity as I know it. I'd rather be a drug addict again.
Drugs kill your emotions, your mind. Legalism and religion strangles your very Spirit.

It's all grace and NOTHING BUT grace. Not an iota to boast about, not a speck of our own righteousness.

Don't assume there's some kind of "middle road" in this. Grace mixed up with anything else is no longer grace. Beware of the sourdough of the pharisees. They're not an extinct race.

That my brother is why it is ever referred to as "Good News". When ever you see the word "gospel" in the NT, hear in your mind "Good News".

Jesus is not bad news my friends. Jesus is Good News. Period. It is the awarding of perfect righteousness to you. It cannot be improved on. It is perfect now and forever. Nothing can ever change that. Nothing.

Asaph

[holo]

:D:D:D:D:D

I am a perfect, 100% righteous, holy human being, born of God, just like he intended me to be.

Now, if I could just get this life over with and leave this world and skinny body behind already...

[New_Wineskin]

Help me understand what you are saying here?

I was referring to Paul's writings . He was saying that our relationship with the Lord is not about observing the Law ( of the Scriptures ) - walking according to the written code - it is about our relationship with Him - walking in the Spirit . Paul writes that faith comes from hearing the Lord . He says it -we believe it - we walk according to it . He writes on our hearts and it becomes a part of us . What prompted Abraham to do what he did ? He didn't read it from stone or parchment or paper or hear a sermon . He spoke with the Lord and he went to do what he was told .

[Knowledge3]

This thread is really good.

To add a comment, faith involves everyday conscious reasoning and effort toward Jesus. I see a great difference in the free gospel of Christ and the religion of churches.Like the farmer who scattered seed, often did not know what was in store for his life, but lived his life in a way of faith that his efforts of faith became works.

[Apologetic]

Dear Disciple in Christ.

Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone. When Jesus said from the cross "IT IS FINISHED! (PAID IN FULL)" Do you think He was lying? If you base your salvation on your own works, disciple, you are lost. You haven't seen into the depths of how rotten you are in yourself and how desperately you are in need of a Savior who gave His life in your place that you may be clothed in His life and righteousness when you face God on judgement day.

Tell me one thing: What kind of works did the thief who was crucified together with Christ have? He was a rebel - a murderer and he asked Jesus for a thought when Jesus came to His own Kingdom. Here is Scripture talking:

Luke 23:
41And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now, according to what some of you say, this man on the cross beside Jesus would not be saved - because he didn't have any works to accompany his faith. His faith was enough for Jesus, and it should be enough for you too!

"Disciple of Christ" what you are doing here is that you are preaching another gospel than the one found in the Bible. This is a very dangerous thing to be doing. You are preaching like the judaists did, the number one enemy of the gospel back in Paul's days. Read the letter to the Galatians and you may find your salvation there. I will pray for you. I have difficulty believing that you are an honest Christian in this forum at all. What you are saying sounds a lot like what the "Jehova's witnesses" would say.

If salvation could come from works at all, then Christ died for nothing!

The honor of salvation befalls Jesus Christ alone, and not you nor me, whatsoever. I'd be interested to hear you tell what you think of the Trinity, for most people who deny the gospel of salvation by grace through faith alone deny the Trinity as well. And if you deny either of these things, you are not a Christian, but a religious person and perhaps a judaist.

You need to let the Spirit of God show you how sinful you are, and form there cry out to Jesus for salvation. He will teach you the path to true righteousness, which is found - not in us - but in Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Gal 1:
6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Gal 2:
3But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:

4And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

5To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

Romans 10:

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Read my "It is finished", "disciple of Christ", that you may become what you are calling yourself.

You asked what faith is - faith is coming to Christ, trusting His blood's cleansing you from all sin, Him being your righteousness.

You need to hear Paul once more:

Philippians 3:

2Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.

3For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.

8Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

Now read your post in light of the Scripture. I believe you will find it does not fit at all.

[ItsGr82BSaved]

HOLO - "I am a perfect, 100% righteous, holy human being, born of God, just like he intended me to be.

Now, if I could just get this life over with and leave this world and skinny body behind already..."

It sounds to me as if you are showing ajded sense of sarcasm. Because if you truly feel the way you claim here, your self-righteousness will be your undoing and send you to Hell.

Luke 18:18 - Jesus said, "...No one is good but One, that is, God."

Isaiah 64:6 - “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”

Don't deceive yourself. God LOVES you!

SK

[Apologetic]

HOLO - "I am a perfect, 100% righteous, holy human being, born of God, just like he intended me to be.

Now, if I could just get this life over with and leave this world and skinny body behind already..."

It sounds to me as if you are showing ajded sense of sarcasm. Because if you truly feel the way you claim here, your self-righteousness will be your undoing and send you to Hell.

Luke 18:18 - Jesus said, "...No one is good but One, that is, God."

Isaiah 64:6 - “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”

Don't deceive yourself. God LOVES you!

SK

I think he's being ironic or sarcastic, dear sibling :). :hug:
But on the other hand - I'm 100% righteous, good, holy and so on in God's eyes, you know why? Because Jesus is, and His life counts as mine before God :) Me as I am myself is a completely different story. Me outside Jesus' righteousness which I have been given freely by God because of His gift - the faith - is a wretched, evil, self-centered sinner. The nature of the Spirit (my reborn spirit) my old, evil flesh (the old me) both live in me and fight in me every moment of my life so I won't be able to do what I want to. But praise be to God, by Christ Jesus, who has saved me from my sin and clothed me in His righteousness. What freedom, what joy! Halleluja!

[ItsGr82BSaved]

Amen and Halleluja beloved sister!

Hopefully, non believers will see your post and get that connection.

I praise God for your presense here and for your words of encouragement!

In HIS service,

SK

[holo]

HOLO - "I am a perfect, 100% righteous, holy human being, born of God, just like he intended me to be.

Now, if I could just get this life over with and leave this world and skinny body behind already..."

It sounds to me as if you are showing ajded sense of sarcasm. Because if you truly feel the way you claim here, your self-righteousness will be your undoing and send you to Hell.

Luke 18:18 - Jesus said, "...No one is good but One, that is, God."

Isaiah 64:6 - “For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; and all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.”

Don't deceive yourself. God LOVES you!

SK
Yeah, I was about to say something like Apologetic said.

I'm far from righteous in my own flesh and power. God forbid I should ever think that I am.

No, I am clothed in Christ, hidden in him, covered in his blood.
That's my starting point. It's not a place I go to by being good and doing the right things. It's where I am. It's what allows me to live the life I was dreaming about, but never attaining, as a legalist.
I have nothing to boast about. Even my (still limited) understanding of grace has come by God's revelation. And he hasn't revealed anything to me because I'm such a good person. He has indeed chosen what was was considered hopeless and worthless in the world.

[WesWoodell]

"Disciple of Christ" what you are doing here is that you are preaching another gospel than the one found in the Bible.


And I suppose James was preaching another gospel too?


EDIT: I was just about to say that you sound like a disciple of Martin Luther but I didn't. Then I saw the Lutheran icon under your name. ^_^

[cenimo]

It's kind of amusing that discussions on works rarely look at these verses:

John 6:28-29
28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" 29 Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

[Apologetic]

And I suppose James was preaching another gospel too?


EDIT: I was just about to say that you sound like a disciple of Martin Luther but I didn't. Then I saw the Lutheran icon under your name. ^_^

No, but James isn't talking about having both faith and works in the sense that you add something to Jesus' work of salvation by grace! He is talking about the fruit of the Spirit, which comes automatically and naturally like any fruit on any tree when we are in Christ, like the branch is one with the trunk. And how to stay in Christ? To stay poor in spirit - knowing you can do nothing without Him, that you are nothing without Him.

If I sound like Martin Luther concerning the gospel then I praise God that He is able to use a sinner like me to preach the gospel as clearly as Luther did. Now remember to use not just fragments of Scripture, but to use the context as well, dear co-heirs of Christ.

What does James say further? Let's see:

James 2:
17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (It must bear fruit, according to Matt 3:

10And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.)

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

James is not talking about works you do to keep the law and save yourself (as if that was even possible). Not one place does James say "Strive to keep the law". No, he is talking about bearing fruit for Christ. Scripture must be allowed to interpret itself, dear brothers and sisters, and the book of Ephesians, together with all the New Testament says we are saved by grace through faith and it is not of our selves. You can't blind yourself by going for one book alone in the Bible or one passage. You need the Bible's own words to explain itself, just like the best way to understand a person who's talking to you is to ask that person - and not your feelings and thoughts (you may very well be misunderstanding the person) - what he or she meant when she said this or that.

Now listen to what Jesus says about us bearing fruit:
John 15:
16Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

See? He says He's taken care of us bearing fruit. Our bearing fruit is not our doing, but His! Whatever your old nature or the devil may tell you about YOU having to DO something to be saved, remember this: The glory and honor of YOUR salvation belongs to The Lord God ALONE. You are NOT co-operating with Him on your salvation! Your salvation is ready, your ticket's paid, the Judge has declared you innocent, you're free to go! And whose doing is this? Your own? Or is it the doing of the Lord - the true God and true Man Jesus Christ who took your place - the righteous in the sinner's stead - and bore your blame and punishment up to the cross, poored out His blood to pay for your soul's release, gave up His spirit and died and rose on the third day that YOU would be clothed in His righteousness!

Now, because you were born about two millenia later, you couldn't see it with your own eyes. So God told you, through the Bible, or another Christian, how big a sinner you are, and how unworthy you are of anything ever near salvation and an eternity in God's presence. And you thought: Woe to me! I am lost! I will perish and suffer the flames of hell forevermore!

Then someone preached the gospel to you and told you something like what I told you two paragraphs ago - and you thought "Halleluja! I am saved by God's mercy according to Jesus' blood!"

May God forbid that not I nor you ever think any of it was our own doing!

Then, dear brothers and sisters - what was your reaction to being saved?

Love - to God for saving you even though you are so hopeless
- to man - "everybody must hear the message and be saved!!"

joy - destination: HEAVEN - the throne of God your Savior and Father!!

peace - you both had peace with God through Jesus and could maybe feel the peace of God in your soul.

longsuffering - it is never as easy to be patient as when you have caught a glimpse of how patient Jesus is with you

gentleness, goodness - it is never as easy to help others and being nice to others as when you realize how much God loves YOU and the rest of all mankind and what Jesus has done for you. You do good things - not to save your own soul (as if it was possible) but you do it in gratitude to God's work of salvation and grace toward you.

faith - nothing could stop you from coming to Jesus now!

Meekness, temperance - You were willing to forgive all who did evil things toward you and you knew your place as an unworthy sinner they way you are yourself, but because of Jesus' blood, you were saved.

These are the fruits of the Spirit as stated in Galatians 5,22-23. Tell me - which of these were your own doing so you can add it to your Savior's blood, spilt on the cross of Calvary for you?

I think you will find the answer is NONE. It came naturally when you saw yourself as a lost sinner first, then as a saved sinner because of what Jesus has done for you. It is His doing. NONE of it is yours.

Now listen - when you encounter Scripture which is hard to understand and seems to object to the gospel of God's grace - then put that Scripture aside there and then and ask a pastor or wait till you find other place in Scripture to interpret it. Remember - the devil used Scripture when he was tempting Jesus. Never forget that - but Satan's ways of using Scripture are always based on our lack of knowledge for the rest of it.

Now, keep this in mind from Isaiah 26:

12LORD, You will establish peace for us,
For You have also done all our works in us.

Now, read the verse to yourself, emphasizing one word of the sentence each time you read it. This is a hugely great way to read such passages. :D

[Asaph]

Man, what is the deal with you guys from Norway? That is some excellent preaching of the Good News! :thumbsup:

Good job. Amen.

Asaph

[Apologetic]

Man, what is the deal with you guys from Norway? That is some excellent preaching of the Good News! :thumbsup:

Good job. Amen.

Asaph

lol all glory to God and His faithful servants at Fjelltun Bible College. They taught me thoroughly about salvation by grace through faith alone.

salvation - that's God's work - not mine :D

[holo]

Man, what is the deal with you guys from Norway? That is some excellent preaching of the Good News! :thumbsup:

Good job. Amen.

Asaph
Haha, it's because chose for himself a lowly and unregarded people...

So far we basically only have the invention of the cheese slicer and the paper clip to be proud of, it's about time we really go out and change the world, eh?

[A Brother In Christ]

As long as he meant "love the Lord your God with all that you are" and "love your neighbor" then I'm cool with keeping the commandments :) It's not a necessity for salvation though. It's a natural response to an encounter with Christ.

God has given a higher commandment ...John 13:34-35

[A Brother In Christ]

Who among you believes he is saved? How can anyone say, "I am saved," when that person does not keep God's commandments or obey God's teaching? There are still many Christians who believe that they are saved because they merely 'believe' in Jesus Christ, but I say to you, define what belief is. Is belief merely a tongue service? Is belief in Jesus Christ saying, "I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins," and that being true salvation? Are you saved because you have said this with your mouth, but then continue being a lover of yourself, a lover of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to God, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not a lover of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, a lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God -- having a form of godliness but denying its power?

No! That is like a sick man who finds a good doctor and says, "Doctor, tell me how I can be cured of this illness," and listens to his response.

The doctor tells him the reason why he is sick and to discontinue doing those things that have made him ill and then he tells him how he can be healed: "Take this medicine seven times a day, and I tell you the truth, you will be cured in a month's time, if you obey all that I have told you." The patient doesn't realize how lucky he is, because this is the only doctor who knows this prescription and can cure his illness and save him from death.

And then the patient, well-pleased with his response, leaves the doctor's office rejoicing, but when he gets back out in the world, he doesn't do anything he said. He doesn't repent of all the things that have made him ill, he only regrets that he still does these things, and he doesn't take the medicine the amount of times in one day as he was told. The first day afterwards he took the pill seven times a day as he was instructed, but as the days follow, he decides to take the pill whenever he wants and as few as he wants. However, the patient still believes in his doctor.

Months later, the patient is on the borderline of death, and his relatives go up and say to him, "Why are you dying? Didn't you say that your doctor was a good doctor? Why, then, are you lying on your deathbed?"

And the patient replied, "I do believe in my doctor. I believe in my doctor so much, that I know I will not die and will be saved." And then the patient dies.

His relatives and those who are sick with the same illness begin to grumble among one another and say, "Surely that doctor was a sham!" And they all go off seeking other doctors, not realizing that it was merely the patient who was outright disobedient.

Whoever has a spiritual ear, let him hear what the parable means.

Sounds like a mormen doctrine.....

1 john 1:8-10

Roman 4:2-8


Hebrews 11:8-9...Gen 15:6..romans 4:2-8
James 2:18-22 ...Gen 22:10

James 2:20 work is dead bad translation....works are barron
John 15:1-16 degrees of growth

phil 1:6 God work for growth not other believers
we water , fertalize

God makes growth

[RevKidd]

Two things that I would like to chime in and say..

First, I think we all agree that there is nothing that we can do to be saved. No work of the flesh or works of the law nothing. What saves us is to declare that Jesus Christ is Lord of our lives that we are sinners that he bought our redemption on the Cross...

But is it wrong to then say at that point of salvation that we have a responsibility to be Christ like, that our actions should display the fruits of the spirit. I really don't see anywhere in the Word where we are not held responsible for our actions. Do we continue to sin so that grace may abound? Paul said that he did what he didn't want to do...

[holo]

But is it wrong to then say at that point of salvation that we have a responsibility to be Christ like, that our actions should display the fruits of the spirit. I really don't see anywhere in the Word where we are not held responsible for our actions. Do we continue to sin so that grace may abound? Paul said that he did what he didn't want to do...Those who believe will not come under judgment. So, yes, we are in fact not held responsible for our actions. Jesus is.

[- DRA -]

Who among you believes he is saved? How can anyone say, "I am saved," when that person does not keep God's commandments or obey God's teaching? There are still many Christians who believe that they are saved because they merely 'believe' in Jesus Christ, but I say to you, define what belief is. Is belief merely a tongue service? Is belief in Jesus Christ saying, "I believe that Jesus Christ died for my sins," and that being true salvation? Are you saved because you have said this with your mouth, but then continue being a lover of yourself, a lover of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to God, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not a lover of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, a lover of pleasure rather than a lover of God -- having a form of godliness but denying its power?

No! That is like a sick man who finds a good doctor and says, "Doctor, tell me how I can be cured of this illness," and listens to his response.

The doctor tells him the reason why he is sick and to discontinue doing those things that have made him ill and then he tells him how he can be healed: "Take this medicine seven times a day, and I tell you the truth, you will be cured in a month's time, if you obey all that I have told you." The patient doesn't realize how lucky he is, because this is the only doctor who knows this prescription and can cure his illness and save him from death.

And then the patient, well-pleased with his response, leaves the doctor's office rejoicing, but when he gets back out in the world, he doesn't do anything he said. He doesn't repent of all the things that have made him ill, he only regrets that he still does these things, and he doesn't take the medicine the amount of times in one day as he was told. The first day afterwards he took the pill seven times a day as he was instructed, but as the days follow, he decides to take the pill whenever he wants and as few as he wants. However, the patient still believes in his doctor.

Months later, the patient is on the borderline of death, and his relatives go up and say to him, "Why are you dying? Didn't you say that your doctor was a good doctor? Why, then, are you lying on your deathbed?"

And the patient replied, "I do believe in my doctor. I believe in my doctor so much, that I know I will not die and will be saved." And then the patient dies.

His relatives and those who are sick with the same illness begin to grumble among one another and say, "Surely that doctor was a sham!" And they all go off seeking other doctors, not realizing that it was merely the patient who was outright disobedient.

Whoever has a spiritual ear, let him hear what the parable means.

Two thoughts:
1.) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 - NKJV)
2.) "... He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:9)

Conclusion:
Many that are sick think they are whole. Consequently, they do not follow the instructions of the physician i.e. Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17.

Consequently:
They do not obey the physician. Later, He rejects them for not following His instructions i.e. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

[Asaph]

Haha, it's because chose for himself a lowly and unregarded people...

So far we basically only have the invention of the cheese slicer and the paper clip to be proud of, it's about time we really go out and change the world, eh?

I'm looking at it brother, and I mean it realy looks like a move of God. I've lived in Europe and never once did I want to go to Norway. But listening to you guys, oh yeah, there's something going on up there I want to be in on! :thumbsup:

Asaph

[WesWoodell]

Two thoughts:
1.) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 - NKJV)
2.) "... He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:9)

Conclusion:
Many that are sick think they are whole. Consequently, they do not follow the instructions of the physician i.e. Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17.

Consequently:
They do not obey the physician. Later, He rejects them for not following His instructions i.e. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

To add to that thought:


Acts 26:20
20 ... I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
(NIV)

[holo]

I've lived in Europe and never once did I want to go to Norway.Me neither...
It's cold here, except right now, we're having a heat wave. I never get the time to adjust to the climate.

Good thing the kingdom of God is more well-tempered, eh?

[joethehoe]

yes
:amen:

[Apologetic]

Two thoughts:
1.) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 - NKJV)
2.) "... He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:9)

Conclusion:
Many that are sick think they are whole. Consequently, they do not follow the instructions of the physician i.e. Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17.

Consequently:
They do not obey the physician. Later, He rejects them for not following His instructions i.e. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Let us see what the Bible means when it talks about obedience required for salvation.

John 6 (And I believe somebody mentioned this before):
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

The way in which you start your post sounds like a quote from a certain "prophetess" in a certain denomination. In that case, I believe you should change your icon to something else that Christian.

[Apologetic]

Haha, it's because chose for himself a lowly and unregarded people...


Too true, too true. :D

[Asaph]

Me neither...
It's cold here, except right now, we're having a heat wave. I never get the time to adjust to the climate.

Good thing the kingdom of God is more well-tempered, eh?

LOL. The older I get the less I like the cold. :)

Asaph

[A Brother In Christ]

Sounds like a mormen doctrine.....

1 john 1:8-10

Roman 4:2-8


Hebrews 11:8-9...Gen 15:6..romans 4:2-8
James 2:18-22 ...Gen 22:10

James 2:20 work is dead bad translation....works are barron
John 15:1-16 degrees of growth

phil 1:6 God work for growth not other believers
we water , fertalize

God makes growth

barron tree get trimmed

[RevKidd]

Those who believe will not come under judgment. So, yes, we are in fact not held responsible for our actions. Jesus is.

Will we not be judged?

What rewards will we have in heaven and how will they be obtained if our actions and our deeds are not a basis for those rewards?

Two thoughts:
1.) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 - NKJV)
2.) "... He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:9)

These are excellent scriptures that point to the fact that after our salvation we have a choice to obey God and His commandments... But know one has tried to explain and harmonize this scripture with the idea that our actions will not be judged...

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Two thoughts:
1.) "But why do you call Me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say?" (Luke 6:46 - NKJV)
2.) "... He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him." (Hebrews 5:9)

Conclusion:
Many that are sick think they are whole. Consequently, they do not follow the instructions of the physician i.e. Matthew 9:12, Mark 2:17.

Consequently:
They do not obey the physician. Later, He rejects them for not following His instructions i.e. Matthew 7:21-23, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Let us see what the Bible means when it talks about obedience required for salvation.

John 6 (And I believe somebody mentioned this before):
28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?

The way in which you start your post sounds like a quote from a certain "prophetess" in a certain denomination. In that case, I believe you should change your icon to something else that Christian.

First off, the idea behind obedience is that we need to do what God says. Consider faith or belief. It is a command or requirement (note Acts 16:30 . . . and be sure to continue the reading through verse 34) that we must do. The passage you cited from the gospel of John reveals to us that belief is the word that God would have us do. Considering Hebrews 11:6 helps us to appreciate the necessity of faith. Faith is what prompts us to accept and do what God says (see James 2:21-24, Genesis chapter 22, and Hebrews 11:17-19).

Second, I don't have a clue what "prophetess" you are alluding to, or what point you are trying to make. I began my quote by quoting two passages of Scripture that supported the original post. Were you offended by these Scriptures? Were you offended because they were quoted from the NKJV? What gives? :scratch:

[- DRA -]

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear (emphasis mine) before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (NKJV)

[Asaph]

Will we not be judged?

What rewards will we have in heaven and how will they be obtained if our actions and our deeds are not a basis for those rewards?



These are excellent scriptures that point to the fact that after our salvation we have a choice to obey God and His commandments... But know one has tried to explain and harmonize this scripture with the idea that our actions will not be judged...

First of all, anything not done in faith is a sin. Those things done for "rewards" are, according to scripture, counted as debt not gain.

Secondly, yes absolutely every action you or I have ever done is judged. That judgement has already taken place. Jesus accepted it for me. I can only speak for myself when it comes to this, but the judgement concerning me has been made and paid.

Asaph

[Kelly]

OK, so how much works is enough? ....exactly...

[Asaph]

OK, so how much works is enough? ....exactly...

Be God.

Live Perfect.

Die in the place of the wretched.

Do that and you have done enough works.

Asaph

[A Brother In Christ]

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear (emphasis mine) before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (NKJV)

1 cor 3:12-15 big deal still saved

[New_Wineskin]

Will we not be judged?

What rewards will we have in heaven and how will they be obtained if our actions and our deeds are not a basis for those rewards?


My reward is being with the Lord . I don't need any others .


These are excellent scriptures that point to the fact that after our salvation we have a choice to obey God and His commandments... But know one has tried to explain and harmonize this scripture with the idea that our actions will not be judged...

So , you obey the command to put to death those that break the Sabbath ? Yet , while refusing to obey this clear command , you will rationalize that everyone else must obey *your* preferred commands .

[jasperbound]

Would I be wrong in inferring that some Christians take salvation as a license to freely sin?

[WesWoodell]

Would I be wrong in inferring that some Christians take salvation as a license to freely sin?


No. That's the problem. :|

[A Brother In Christ]

Would I be wrong in inferring that some Christians take salvation as a license to freely sin?

Yes ...this is wrong idea ..some people get

yet they will be taught disipline comes to God's people now not latter like satan's people

[A Brother In Christ]

romans 11:6 And since by grace, then is it no more works: otherwise grace is no more of grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is more work.

[holo]

Would I be wrong in inferring that some Christians take salvation as a license to freely sin?I really can't think of a single time I've seen that happen. Given, some people consider it sinful to drink alcohol at all, while others don't, but I've never heard anyone say "I'll be forgiven anyway, so I'll just go ahead."

[Kelly]

Would I be wrong in inferring that some Christians take salvation as a license to freely sin?

If they do that's unfortunate. I think that works, repentance, etc are examples that we are giving our lives over to Christ's will for our lives. In accepting Jesus, we are saved, but we can be more than conquerors by reflecting Him in our actions and mindset.

To assume that we get to heaven with grace AND something from our own accomplishments belittle's Jesus' sacrifice. We should live and act differently out of love, not requirement.

[New_Wineskin]

I really can't think of a single time I've seen that happen. Given, some people consider it sinful to drink alcohol at all, while others don't, but I've never heard anyone say "I'll be forgiven anyway, so I'll just go ahead."

While being raised catholic , I heard many a fellow catholic say that very thing . Not that it is an catholic catholic doctrine or that all catholics think that way ... it is simply that many have said that to me . I haven't heard a single noncatholic Christian say it . But , that doesn't mean they are out there .

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear (emphasis mine) before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (NKJV)

1 cor 3:12-15 big deal still saved

Consider the previous verses of the passage in 1 Cor. 3. Paul and Apollos were "fellow workers" (verse 9), laboring together as "wise master builders" on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 10). Paul laid the foundation, but Apollos built on it (verse 10). Note Acts 18:1-18a -- Paul initially preached the gospel in Corinth and established the church there. Apollos' labors came later. The church at Corinth came about and was built up as a result of the work of Paul and Apollos (and Cephas). Thus, if their work (the church at Corinth) is burned when it is tested with fire, the unfaithful Christians will perish but the faithful preachers will be saved for their efforts (verses 13-15). Consider the greater context of this passage: there was division in the church based on which preacher baptized the different members. The church is being rebuked for this division. Their sole foundation and focus should be upon Christ, not upon the preachers. Thus, they were in danger of perishing.

Consequently, the passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 3 in no way negates the plain statement in 2 Corinthians chapter 5 about all of us having to face the Lord in judgement. And, for the record, all who think they are saved will NOT be (Matthew 7:21-23).

[- DRA -]

OK, so how much works is enough? ....exactly...

"So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' " (Luke 17:10 NKJV)

[jasperbound]

While being raised catholic , I heard many a fellow catholic say that very thing . Not that it is an catholic catholic doctrine or that all catholics think that way ... it is simply that many have said that to me . I haven't heard a single noncatholic Christian say it . But , that doesn't mean they are out there .

Well, if the Christians on this very thread who I thought were suggesting that since they're saved they can sin only mean that they are already saved but are trying to avoid sin (although will stumble, as all humans do) and do good works out of love for their Lord, then I guess I was wrong about them.

[holo]

While being raised catholic , I heard many a fellow catholic say that very thing . Not that it is an catholic catholic doctrine or that all catholics think that way ... it is simply that many have said that to me . I haven't heard a single noncatholic Christian say it . But , that doesn't mean they are out there .Weird. I always thought catholics would be the last ones to say something like that, they seem to be much more preoccupied with works than a lot of other believers...

Goes to show, I guess?

[A Brother In Christ]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

2 Corinthians 5:10 says, "For we must all appear (emphasis mine) before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad." (NKJV)



Consider the previous verses of the passage in 1 Cor. 3. Paul and Apollos were "fellow workers" (verse 9), laboring together as "wise master builders" on the foundation of Jesus Christ (verse 10). Paul laid the foundation, but Apollos built on it (verse 10). Note Acts 18:1-18a -- Paul initially preached the gospel in Corinth and established the church there. Apollos' labors came later. The church at Corinth came about and was built up as a result of the work of Paul and Apollos (and Cephas). Thus, if their work (the church at Corinth) is burned when it is tested with fire, the unfaithful Christians will perish but the faithful preachers will be saved for their efforts (verses 13-15). Consider the greater context of this passage: there was division in the church based on which preacher baptized the different members. The church is being rebuked for this division. Their sole foundation and focus should be upon Christ, not upon the preachers. Thus, they were in danger of perishing.

Consequently, the passage in 1 Corinthians chapter 3 in no way negates the plain statement in 2 Corinthians chapter 5 about all of us having to face the Lord in judgement. And, for the record, all who think they are saved will NOT be (Matthew 7:21-23).

Those who are not saved counted on their own works not Christ work on the cross for their salvation....

the corthinian assembly had a lot of problems with in its assembly..

1 cor 3:1-4 very carnal ..living in the flesh!

1 cor 3:15 If any man's [in greek good] work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.

1 cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may recieve the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 cor 5:21 For He[the Father] hath made Him[Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made to be God's righteousness of God in Him.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

eph 5:26 That He might sanctify and clease it with the washing of water by the word [John1:14], 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish....1thes 5:23-25

2 cor 11:2 For I am jea;ous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused tou to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Not by my good or even bad works ...but by Christ work that we are all purified...

[Chuck®]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

So
if there no longer remains a price to be paid for our sins,
then why do we continue trying to pay it through our works?
Why do we think that we can somehow earn God's favor
when He says that we can't earn it?
He gives salvation to us for free ... it's a gift ...
and there is no way to earn a gift ...
or else it isn't a gift!
;)


Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12)
and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God.

The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6).
Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23),

something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10).

~ Chuck ~

[holo]

And all God's people said ay-men and hallelujapraisethelord.

Chuck=right.

[Chuck®]

:amen: Thank you holo

If it’s heavy, it’s not His burden
because His burden is light.
If what I’m doing is tough and wearisome to me,
then I know it’s not the Lord who has placed that burden upon me.
His burden is easy. His load is light.

Jesus would say to you today, “Come to Me.
Don’t labor under the burdens of Pharaoh.
You’ll become weary if you do.
Don’t become heavy laden under the bondage of sin.
It will rob you of your energy.
Don’t become enslaved by the laws of the Pharisees.
You’ll be weighed down.
Just come to Me.
Yoke with Me.
Learn of Me.
And you’ll find rest in your souls.”

~ Chuck ~
http://sc.groups.msn.com/themes/R9c/pby/img/emoticons/emlove.gif

[New_Wineskin]

Weird. I always thought catholics would be the last ones to say something like that, they seem to be much more preoccupied with works than a lot of other believers...

Goes to show, I guess?All sorts of Catholics out there .

[New_Wineskin]

Well, if the Christians on this very thread who I thought were suggesting that since they're saved they can sin only mean that they are already saved but are trying to avoid sin (although will stumble, as all humans do) and do good works out of love for their Lord, then I guess I was wrong about them.

I didn't see a single post that suggested anything about having a right to sin .

[- DRA -]

Those who are not saved counted on their own works not Christ work on the cross for their salvation....

the corthinian assembly had a lot of problems with in its assembly..

1 cor 3:1-4 very carnal ..living in the flesh!

1 cor 3:15 If any man's [in greek good] work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so by fire.

1 cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ; that every one may recieve the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

1 cor 5:21 For He[the Father] hath made Him[Christ] to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made to be God's righteousness of God in Him.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

eph 5:26 That He might sanctify and clease it with the washing of water by the word [John1:14], 27 That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish....1thes 5:23-25

2 cor 11:2 For I am jea;ous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused tou to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Not by my good or even bad works ...but by Christ work that we are all purified...

"Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, ... but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. ... Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another with a pure heart." (1 Peter 1:18-19,22 NKJV).

And, go back and take a closer look at Matthew 7:21-23. The text tells us why the Lord rejects them. Note especially the latter part of verse 21 -- "but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." They is what they lacked -- they didn't do God's will.

Combine the thoughts from the previously mentioned passages in 1 Peter and Matthew. Christians are redeemed and purified with the blood of Christ when they do God's will by obeying the truth.

:clap:

[A Brother In Christ]

"Knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, ... but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. ... Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another with a pure heart." (1 Peter 1:18-19,22 NKJV).

And, go back and take a closer look at Matthew 7:21-23. The text tells us why the Lord rejects them. Note especially the latter part of verse 21 -- "but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." They is what they lacked -- they didn't do God's will.

Combine the thoughts from the previously mentioned passages in 1 Peter and Matthew. Christians are redeemed and purified with the blood of Christ when they do God's will by obeying the truth.

:clap:


Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never [expericially] knew you:.....

Never lived inside of them....

1 cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of Holy Ghost which is in you........

God knew these corthinians ...since he lived inside of them

yet these believers were doing awful sins toward each other

so when Paul writes romans 4:5 how does a ungodly person believes? let alone become righteous!


Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not count sin....

this goes back to Romans 4:5...one that believes and needs to do nothing more for salvation

not by their work but Christ work and purpose is what saves 2 tim 1:9

[- DRA -]

"For by grace are ye saved through faith;
and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
Ephesians 2:8-9

So
if there no longer remains a price to be paid for our sins,
then why do we continue trying to pay it through our works?
Why do we think that we can somehow earn God's favor
when He says that we can't earn it?
He gives salvation to us for free ... it's a gift ...
and there is no way to earn a gift ...
or else it isn't a gift!
;)

Eph. 2:5-6a says (NKJV), "Even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together."

And,

Romans 6:3-11 says, "Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. For he who has died has been freed from sin. Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Hmmm.

The verses preceding the often quoted verses of Ephesians 2:8-9 describe what occurs in baptism. We also shouldn't overlook the thought in parentheses in Eph. 2:5 -- (by grace you have been saved). This is an interesting thought, since the context of the verse is discussing the blessings that occur during baptism.

:idea:


Christians receive Jesus (John 1:12)
and put their faith-filled trust in what Jesus did on the cross (Isaiah 53:12; 1 Pet. 2:24) and in so doing are justified by God.

The Bible states that justification is not by works (Rom. 3:20, 28; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9) because our righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6).
Therefore, we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
Those who are justified are saved and salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23),

something we cannot earn (Eph. 2:1-10).

~ Chuck ~

The N.T. indeed discusses whether or not works are a part of our salvation. The passages that you mentioned discuss the works that are NOT. However, we must NOT overlook the text that discusses works necessary for justification:

"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:14-26)

Also, this passages addresses the idea of being saved or justified by faith alone.

[- DRA -]

Matt 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never [expericially] knew you:.....

Never lived inside of them....

1 cor 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of Holy Ghost which is in you........

God knew these corthinians ...since he lived inside of them

yet these believers were doing awful sins toward each other

so when Paul writes romans 4:5 how does a ungodly person believes? let alone become righteous!

Quote:

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not count sin....

this goes back to Romans 4:5...one that believes and needs to do nothing more for salvation

not by their work but Christ work and purpose is what saves 2 tim 1:9

Christ indeed says that He never knew them in Matthew 7:23. Combining that thought with what He charged them with in verse 21 -- not doing the will of the Father, leads us to conclude that they didn't do the Father's will when it came to what was necessary to be "known" by the Lord. In essence, they hadn't obeyed the Father's will in what is necessary to be saved under the gospel of Christ. They thought they had. And, they thought they were serving the Lord. Sadly, they were rejected. The Lord said that He never knew them. What a shame. :cry:

Note Romans 6:7. It is discussing how we are freed from sin. What is the context of that discussion?

You remind me of someone that used to post under the name of "A Brethren in Christ." Are you that person?

[A Brother In Christ]

Christ indeed says that He never knew them in Matthew 7:23. Combining that thought with what He charged them with in verse 21 -- not doing the will of the Father, leads us to conclude that they didn't do the Father's will when it came to what was necessary to be "known" by the Lord. In essence, they hadn't obeyed the Father's will in what is necessary to be saved under the gospel of Christ. They thought they had. And, they thought they were serving the Lord. Sadly, they were rejected. The Lord said that He never knew them. What a shame. :cry:

Note Romans 6:7. It is discussing how we are freed from sin. What is the context of that discussion?

You remind me of someone that used to post under the name of "A Brethren in Christ." Are you that person?

In the Flesh....

what is the will of the Lord? to believe...

Yet this is God's work.. John 6:29, 2 cor 4:3-6

to produce fruit is the Lord's job.. John 15:16, Phil 1:6

even though We also have a responibilty to it also... John 13:34-35, eph 4:32

[A Brother In Christ]

Note Romans 6:7. It is discussing how we are freed from sin. What is the context of that discussion?


we are if we walk in the spirit..

but we can also walk in the flesh....

evidence..1 john 1:8-10

before salvation all we could do is act like a natural fleshly man

[A Brother In Christ]

They thought they had. And, they thought they were serving the Lord. Sadly, they were rejected. The Lord said that He never knew them. What a shame. :cry:



Lord did not reject them... they willfully rejected the Gospel...Acts 13:46, 1 cor 1:18-21, John 1:5, John 3:19

As well as God did not call them... eph 1:4, 2 tim 1:9, 2 cor 4:3-6

people always want to add or take something from the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4

[Asaph]

Lord did not reject them... they willfully rejected the Gospel...Acts 13:46, 1 cor 1:18-21, John 1:5, John 3:19

As well as God did not call them... eph 1:4, 2 tim 1:9, 2 cor 4:3-6

people always want to add or take something from the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4

Those who are righteous in their own eyes will fall under the judgement of their own eyes.

Those who accept the free gift of righteousness given by Jesus will fall under the Judgement of Jesus. God has Judged Jesus as perfect and complete.

It's really very simple to those who are saved.

Asaph

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Christ indeed says that He never knew them in Matthew 7:23. Combining that thought with what He charged them with in verse 21 -- not doing the will of the Father, leads us to conclude that they didn't do the Father's will when it came to what was necessary to be "known" by the Lord. In essence, they hadn't obeyed the Father's will in what is necessary to be saved under the gospel of Christ. They thought they had. And, they thought they were serving the Lord. Sadly, they were rejected. The Lord said that He never knew them. What a shame.

Note Romans 6:7. It is discussing how we are freed from sin. What is the context of that discussion?

You remind me of someone that used to post under the name of "A Brethren in Christ." Are you that person?


In the Flesh....

what is the will of the Lord? to believe...

Yet this is God's work.. John 6:29, 2 cor 4:3-6

to produce fruit is the Lord's job.. John 15:16, Phil 1:6

even though We also have a responibilty to it also... John 13:34-35, eph 4:32

We've been through this before. But for the sake of those who have been following this discussion, the Lord's will is for us to believe. Note carefully John 6:29-30. Belief is something that we do. We look at the evidence that is before us and accept it as the truth. Belief is our responsibility. It is the work that God wants us to do. Note the command or direct statement to the jailer in Acts 16:31. Then read the following three verses. The word was preached to the jailer and he responded by being baptized. Hmmm. Kinda' reminds us of Mark 16:16, Acts 8:12, and Acts 8:35-39, right?

I ask that you reconsider the context of Romans 6:3-11. It is discussing what occurs in baptism. Note especially verse 7. We are freed from sin by being buried with Christ and rising with Him (in baptism).

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

They thought they had. And, they thought they were serving the Lord. Sadly, they were rejected. The Lord said that He never knew them. What a shame. :cry:

Lord did not reject them... they willfully rejected the Gospel...Acts 13:46, 1 cor 1:18-21, John 1:5, John 3:19

As well as God did not call them... eph 1:4, 2 tim 1:9, 2 cor 4:3-6

people always want to add or take something from the gospel 1 cor 15:3-4

Nothing is being added to Matthew 7:21-23. The Lord rejects those who do not do the Father's will -- "depart from Me" (verse 23) means that He rejected them.

As far as the gospel is concerned, do you teach the gospel that the Lord said to teach in Mark 16:15-16? The one that Philip preached in Acts 8:35? The one that resulted in the eunuch wanting to be baptized in water in verses 36-39?

[A Brother In Christ]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Christ indeed says that He never knew them in Matthew 7:23. Combining that thought with what He charged them with in verse 21 -- not doing the will of the Father, leads us to conclude that they didn't do the Father's will when it came to what was necessary to be "known" by the Lord. In essence, they hadn't obeyed the Father's will in what is necessary to be saved under the gospel of Christ. They thought they had. And, they thought they were serving the Lord. Sadly, they were rejected. The Lord said that He never knew them. What a shame.

Note Romans 6:7. It is discussing how we are freed from sin. What is the context of that discussion?

You remind me of someone that used to post under the name of "A Brethren in Christ." Are you that person?




We've been through this before. But for the sake of those who have been following this discussion, the Lord's will is for us to believe. Note carefully John 6:29-30. Belief is something that we do.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everone that believeth,.........

2 cor 4:3 Since our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them 5 For we preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake. 6 For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

with out this work of the God they do not believe the gospel

the gospel
1 cor 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have recieved[personally] , and where ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain[1 cor 15:17,gal 2:21]. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also recieved, How that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.

work of God ......John 15:5..... for without me ye can do nothing

We look at the evidence that is before us and accept it as the truth. Belief is our responsibility. agreed It is the work that God wants us to do.

what action happens here in belief???

changing of one mind is God's work

Note the command or direct statement to the jailer in Acts 16:31. Then read the following three verses. The word was preached to the jailer and he responded by being baptized. Hmmm. Kinda' reminds us of Mark 16:16

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

where did baptism go....not requirement of salvation

this is also God work... 1 cor 12:12-13

, Acts 8:12 they believed...

, and Acts 8:35-39
OT believer who need to reconize Christ diety to be put into the body of Christ to get better promises


I ask that you reconsider the context of Romans 6:3-11. It is discussing what occurs in baptism.
where was the water in his death in vs 3?
where was the water in the buried in him in vs 4?
where is the water in the resurrection in Him in vs 4?

there is no water baptism here...

the key word is reckon

God counts us there even though we where not there..likewise we must count are selves dead even though we are not and count are selves alive in Christ
Note especially verse 7. We are freed from sin by being buried with Christ and rising with Him (in baptism).

NO water there..... did you read the gospels about these advents

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Note carefully John 6:29-30. Belief is something that we do.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to everone that believeth,.........

2 cor 4:3 Since our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4 In whom the god of this age hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them 5 For we preach not ourselves but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus sake. 6 For God who commanded the light to shine out of darkness hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

with out this work of the God they do not believe the gospel

John 6:29 tells us what the work of God is -- that we believe -- "This is the work of God, that ye believe ... (KJV)." Bottom line. We have enough evidence to produce faith i.e. John 20:20-31, Romans 10:17. It all boils down to whether or not we accept and believe the evidence.

work of God ......John 15:5..... for without me ye can do nothing

what action happens here in belief???

changing of one mind is God's work

Like I have asked before, who is being commanded/required to believe in Acts 16:31? Is it the jailer, or is God being commanded to believe for the jailer?

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

where did baptism go....not requirement of salvation

this is also God work... 1 cor 12:12-13

Mark 16:16a lists two components that are necessary for salvation. Think about the concept -- both components are necessary. Thus, if one component is missing salvation will NOT result. Mark 16:16b tells us what happens if one of the components is missing -- condemnation. Since the components being discussed are belief and baptism, and baptism is based on faith/belief i.e. Col. 2:12-13, then baptism must be accompanied with belief (i.e. Acts 8:36b-37a) to result in salvation.

Your understanding of 1 Cor. 12:12-13 must harmonize with Acts 2:38,41,47. The baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ" was necessary "for the remission of sins" and resulted in those Jews being saved and added to the church -- all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit -- which came upon the apostles in Acts 2:1-4. Note: the baptism "in the name of Jesus Christ is synonymous with the baptism "in the name of the Lord" in Acts 10:47-48, which is clearly identified as being in water. Thus, the baptism required in Acts 2:38 was in water and was necessary to be saved, and resulted in the believer being added to the church by the Lord. 1 Cor. 12:12-13 is emphasizing the Spirit's role in this process.

they believed...

Acts 8:12 says, "But when they believed Philip ... both men and women were baptized (NKJV)." Is there a problem acknowledging what the passage says?

OT believer who need to reconize Christ diety to be put into the body of Christ to get better promises

Acts 8:35-39 plainly reveals to us that Philip "preached Jesus" and the eunuch desired to be baptized in water after hearing Jesus preached. This corresponds or agrees with Acts 2:38,41. Thus, since those who obeyed the command in Acts 2:38 were saved and added to the church (verse 47), I agree with your conclusion that eunuch needed "to be put into the body of Christ." We see the Spirit's role in this conversion -- He was directing the words of the preacher -- just like in Acts chapter 2. That is what you need to see when you consider 1 Cor. 12:12-13.

where was the water in his death in vs 3?
where was the water in the buried in him in vs 4?
where is the water in the resurrection in Him in vs 4?

there is no water baptism here...

the key word is reckon

The water can be seen clearly in Acts 8:35-39 and Acts 10:47-48. Since Acts 10:47-48 is describing the baptism in the name of the Lord, which is the same as the baptism described in Acts 2:38. And, since the baptism in Acts 2:38 is for the remission of sins, which is the same thing as being freed from sin, we can connect the baptism of Romans chapter 6 with water.

The point in Romans chapter 6 is not that Jesus died, was buried, and was resurrected in water, but that when we are baptized in water we are united with Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection. How? By faith in the working of God (Colossians 2:12).

God counts us there even though we where not there..likewise we must count are selves dead even though we are not and count are selves alive in Christ


NO water there..... did you read the gospels about these advents

Sorry, but the text tells us when we are freed from sin (Romans 6:7). I simply don't see any indication of the scenario that you describe.

No water in baptism. Look closely at Acts 8:35-39 and Acts 10:47-48. It's there.

[- DRA -]

Those who are righteous in their own eyes will fall under the judgement of their own eyes.

Those who accept the free gift of righteousness given by Jesus will fall under the Judgement of Jesus. God has Judged Jesus as perfect and complete.

It's really very simple to those who are saved.

Asaph

Just a quick question about your signature -- "Grace + anything = no Grace at all." Could you explain how you derive this understanding in light of Titus 2:11? After all, it seems obvious that since God's grace is extended to all, and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14), then grace cannot be the sole factor in salvation, right?

[Asaph]

Just a quick question about your signature -- "Grace + anything = no Grace at all." Could you explain how you derive this understanding in light of Titus 2:11? After all, it seems obvious that since God's grace is extended to all, and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14), then grace cannot be the sole factor in salvation, right?

Wrong. God's general grace is extended to all, but His specific Grace is reserved for those He has chosen:

John 13:18-19
18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
NKJV
Rom 9:11
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
NKJV
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
NKJV
1 Thess 1:4-5
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Can you explain to me why you conclude that the death of God's only begotten Son is insufficient to save a person?

Can you explain to me what makes you think you can give God even one thing to add to your salvation?

From scripture of course.

Asaph

[Jim Woodell]

God's general grace is extended to all, but His specific Grace is reserved for those He has chosen :

Can you please explain what you mean by God's "specific grace is reserved for those He has chosen?"

What about the statement of Joshua in Joshua 24:15 where he invited the Israelites, "...choose for yourselves this day who you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living..."

When people or invited by Christ to "Repent or perish" do they not have a choice? (Luke 13:3, 5).

John 13:18-19
18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'
NKJV

Obviously Jesus is addressing this to Judas, but did God choose Judas because Judas chose to be a rebel, or did God make Judas a rebel?


Rom 9:11
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
NKJV

Are you concluding from this text, as Calvin did, that God decided before the creation of the world every single individual who would be saved and every single individual who would be lost and that number has not increased nor diminished by one single person since he made that decision??

Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.
NKJV

Did those who were the "elect of grace" have a choice? Did they choose to accept God's grace?


1 Thess 1:4-5
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.
NKJV

Would these people have been "elected" without the gospel coming to them? Why would Paul point out that it came with "power" and with the "Holy Spirit" and "much assurance" if they were arbitrairly chosen without their will being involved?

Remember Paul said, "Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ." (1 Cor. 11:1) Why would he do this if people cannot choose?


Can you explain to me why you conclude that the death of God's only begotten Son is insufficient to save a person?

I haven't noticed anyone in this forum suggesting that the death of Christ is insufficient to save a person. (Perhaps I have missed something.) The suggestion has been made, and I concur, that the death of Christ for my sins must be accepted, along with his burial and resurrection (Rom. 1:4) for a person to be saved.



Can you explain to me what makes you think you can give God even one thing to add to your salvation?

Scripture is clear: CHRIST is our "righteousness, holiness and redemption." (1 Cor. 1:30). "...by ONE sacrifice HE has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." (Heb. 10:14)

It is my privilege to accept the Son of God as my Saviour and Lord or to foolishly reject Him. IF I choose to accept HIM, God, because of his GRACE will save me (Rom. 6:23; Eph. 2:8-9, etc.)

From scripture of course.

Asaph

Of course. :)

[- DRA -]

Originally Posted by: - DRA -

Just a quick question about your signature -- "Grace + anything = no Grace at all." Could you explain how you derive this understanding in light of Titus 2:11? After all, it seems obvious that since God's grace is extended to all, and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14), then grace cannot be the sole factor in salvation, right?

Wrong. God's general grace is extended to all, but His specific Grace is reserved for those He has chosen:

John 13:18-19
18 I do not speak concerning all of you. I know whom I have chosen; but that the Scripture may be fulfilled, 'He who eats bread with Me has lifted up his heel against Me.'

Jesus was speaking of Judas Iscariot in this passage. He knew that Judas would fulfill the prophecy of Psalm 41:9. He knew before it happened. Your point?

NKJV
Rom 9:11
11(for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

The previous verse establishes the context for this passage. The context continues through verse 15. The passage you cited focuses on God's purpose in choosing the lineage of Israel to come through Jacob and not through Esau -- before they were born. Note verse 12. It is a quote from Genesis 25:23. Note verses 12-13. They are quoted in Malachi 1:2-3. Note the two questions and the answer in verse 14. God cannot be charged with unrighteousness for this. Note verse 15. He has the right to have mercy on whom He desires to do so -- a quote from Exodus 33:19. Verse 16 is a conclusion (suggested by "so then") drawn from the previous points to show that God's mercy is extended by His will, not man's. Verse 17 is a quote from Exodus 9:6. God raised up Pharoah (elevated him to king) to show His power and to declare His name. Note verse 18. "Therefore" suggests that a conclusion is being drawn from the previous points. God has mercy on whom He wills i.e. Abraham in verses 7-9, Isaac in verse 10, and Jacob in verses 11-13. God does not show the same mercy to Ishmael (implied but not mentioned in the text), Esau, and Pharoah. Should we complain about this? Nope. He is the potter -- and we are the clay (a thought drawn from several O.T. passages) in verses 19-21. The potter alone decides which vessels He will honor and which he will dishonor (verse 21). I'll skip through verses 22-23 to get to the point of this text of Scripture -- God called not only the Jews, but also the Gentiles under the gospel of Christ. I don't know about you, but I am overjoyed at this thought. Just think, my people, who were not formerly the people of God, can now fully enjoy the blessings of God under the gospel of His Son. Hallelujuh! :bow: :prayer:

Now, what was your point?

NKJV
Rom 11:5-6
5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Look at the last verse of chapter 10. It is a quote from Isaiah 65:2. It does not speak favorably of Israel. That prompts the question and answer in 11:1. God has NOT cast away His people. Look at the verses that follow. Generally speaking, Israel was unfaithful. But not all were unfaithful. Consider Elijah. He thought that He was the only faithful one left. He was NOT. There were 7,000 faithful that had not bowed to Baal. Note verse 5. "Even so" tells us a conclusion is being drawn. "At this present time there is a remnant" is comparing the first-century generation of Jews that respond favorably to the gospel of Christ to the generation that returned from Babylonian captivity where only a remnant returned -- not the whole nation.

Once again, what was your point?

NKJV
1 Thess 1:4-5
4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

Acts 17:1-14 describes Paul's and Silas' initial efforts in Thessalonica to preach the gospel. Note the NKJV expressions in verses 2-3 that explain what they did -- "reasoned with them from the [O.T.] Scriptures, explaining and demonstrating that the Christ had to suffer and rise again from the dead ..." Note the response to this teaching -- "some of them were persuaded" (verse 4) -- "but the Jews who were not persuaded" (verse 5). Now, what I ask you to do is to consider this text as you try to consider what the "election by God" means in 1 Thess. 1:4-5. It refers to those who were persuaded when they heard the gospel of Christ.

NKJV

Can you explain to me why you conclude that the death of God's only begotten Son is insufficient to save a person?

Not sure how you reached this conclusion. I believe (Romans 10:17) that Jesus' sacrifice is sufficient to cover the sins of mankind i.e. 1 Peter 1:18-19. While I'm not sure what your thinking is, I suspect you may have a problem with the idea expressed just a few verses later -- 1 Pet. 1:22. Is that it? Is there a problem accepting that we play a part in our salvation by obeying the truth? If that's not it, then please explain further.

Can you explain to me what makes you think you can give God even one thing to add to your salvation?

From scripture of course.

Asaph

Perhaps I missed something, but I really need some specifics to know what you are alluding to. You seem to have a point of contention, so why not quote what I've said that's amiss and point out the Scripture(s) that will get things back on track?

[aggie03]

Just a quick question about your signature -- "Grace + anything = no Grace at all." Could you explain how you derive this understanding in light of Titus 2:11? After all, it seems obvious that since God's grace is extended to all, and all will not be saved (Matt. 7:13-14), then grace cannot be the sole factor in salvation, right?

Excellent point :)

[WesWoodell]

Titus 2:11-12
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,
(NIV)


Romans 2:4-5
4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
(NIV)


Acts 26:20
20 ... I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
(NIV)


Matthew 22:37-38
37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
(NIV)


John 14:23-24
23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.
24 He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
(NIV)


2 John 1:6
6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands ...
(NIV)

[Apologetic]

Wes, you have presented the Law, not the gospel. The acceptance and belief in the gospel is the foundation for any good deed! When will you love God? Jesus answered Himself:

Luk 7,47: Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little."

How many times do we have to hear this before we learn it: Pleasing God is not aquired by upholding the Law, for no man is able to keep the entire Law at all times neither before nor after his/her being born again. Only, a