Holy Spirit as a Dove

[WhiteTiger2999]

Heres a question that just struck me while looking at a couble extremely beautiful pictures of the Holy Spirit. Why is the Holy Spirit seen as a dove?...

http://www.hasilvestre.org.br/advir/imagens/GoldSat1/images/dove%20over%20earth%20Holy%20Spirit.jpg

http://gotoai.com/Art%20of%20Alix%20McCown/Come-Holy-Spirit.jpg
Beautiful pictures. Many blessings

[Marjorie]

Because he appeared in the form of a dove at Jesus's baptism... the dove representing purity, peace, reconciliation with God (see the story of Noah), etc.

That being said I'm not sure how Orthodoxy views depicting the Spirit as a dove except in the context of icons of Jesus's baptism. Michael...?

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[WhiteTiger2999]

Yes well in most of the Orthodox icons ive seen, the Holy Spirit is always seen as a dove. But thank you for clearifing

[ExOrienteLux]

I'm a bit of an amateur iconophile (might write one soon, God willing [under direction of an iconographer, of course!]), so I'll take a stab at this till Mike shows up.

The only time the Spirit is permitted to be depicted as a dove is when He appeared at Christ's Baptism. He is also shown as fire when He appeared at Pentecost. Apart from that, neither He nor the Father is to be depicted, as They have not appeared otherwise. The "two guys and a bird" picture found in some older American churches is not a valid icon and should not be there. It's heavily influenced by Western devotional art.

I've heard it says that as the Son reveals the Father and the Spirit reveals the Son, so does the Church reveal the Spirit. The Spirit does not have an icon, because He is in every icon written. We are the icon of the Spirit.

Questions/thoughts/comments/condemnations?

+IC XC NIKA+
-Philip.

[knee-v]

Just as a side note, the Gospels never say that the HS appeared as a dove. Rather:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

He didn't actually appear as a dove, but He descended as a dove would descend.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.

[tdcharles]

Here is an EO defense of the Trinity being used in icons: link (http://www.romanitas.ru/eng/THE%20ICON%20OF%20THE%20HOLY%20TRINITY.htm)

Also in Luke 3:22 the Holy Spirit appeared in the bodily shape of a dove, or at least in a shape that seemed similar to a dove.

[Marjorie]

Just as a side note, the Gospels never say that the HS appeared as a dove. Rather:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

He didn't actually appear as a dove, but He descended as a dove would descend.

Just thought I'd throw that in there.



Yeah, but Luke is more specific (3:22.)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Yiannis550]

The Holly Spirit appeared in the shape of a Dove and not like a real dove. That happened during Jesus Baptism in the Jordan river and that is the only time that iconographically it is right to picture Him as a dove.

The Icons of the Holly trinity picturing the Father the Son and the Holly Spirit as an old man, a young man and a dove respectively are heretic. The reasons are :



We do not know how the father is therefore we are not allowed to portray him and especially not as a man! Only the Son became man and we know how he looked like.



In the Son as a man there is also the Father, and in the Father there is also the Son. Same goes for the Holly Spirit. We cannot show the trinity in 3 separate persons for the reason that they are not separate. When we look at the icon of Jesus we also look at the Father and the Holly Spirit. The separation is heretic.



Among other sources I also asked my spiritual father about this because I happened to own one of those trinity icons by mistake. It is a little icon that has a very beautiful icon of mother of God on one side. After I bought it I realize the trinity on the back! I bought it from the Monastey of Rila in Boulgaria. The reason that they keep drawing these icons still, is unfortunately ignorance. So father John actually advised me to either try and unstick the trinity icon from the whole thing, or attach on it another icon and cover it.

The only way we can symbolically represent the Father in an Icon is as a hand coming out of clouds, symbolizing God intervening in our lives helping us and guiding us, and the Trinity icon of the Angels that visit Abraham actually is not God Father Son and Holly Spirit but according to the interpretation of the scripture by the Orthodox Fathers we have The Son and 2 angels. Of course in the Son is also the Father and the Holly Spirit... but the other 2 angels are just regular Angels and not persons from the Holly Trinity. Having the Holly Trinity divided is impossible.

[Xpycoctomos]

The only way we can symbolically represent the Father in an Icon is as a hand coming out of clouds, symbolizing God intervening in our lives helping us and guiding us, and the Trinity icon of the Angels that visit Abraham actually is not God Father Son and Holly Spirit but according to the interpretation of the scripture by the Orthodox Fathers we have The Son and 2 angels. Of course in the Son is also the Father and the Holly Spirit... but the other 2 angels are just regular Angels and not persons from the Holly Trinity. Having the Holly Trinity divided is impossible.

I've never heard that only one angel was God and the others were just angels. In fact, the explanations I've read would only suppor the idea that the three angles together respresent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Could it be, rather, that we are not to say which is which for in doing so we make them separate entities? What have other's heard regarding this icon? Mike... where are you?! ;)

[tdcharles]

The Father appeared in Daniel 7 (the Ancient of Days) and the Holy Spirit in Luke 3 (in the form of a dove). So why can't we represent them as they appeared, in their symbolic forms?

[choirfiend]

Did you read the defenses? The Ancient of Days is the Son in Orthodoxy. The Ancient of Days icon is NOT the same thing as icons supposedly of the Trinity.

[Matrona]

Could it be, rather, that we are not to say which is which for in doing so we make them separate entities?

No, because you can plainly see that the one in the middle is dressed in red with a blue overgarment--it's Jesus. Many modern iconographers place the cruciform halo on that angel for that reason. The one on Christ's right is the Holy Spirit since both He and Christ have their necks inclined towards the one on Christ's left, the one wearing blue and ochre (the Father).

[Yiannis550]

Actually Father Raphael told me this about the angels. I will ask him agai and ask him about the source. He reads a lot so probably he's read it somewhere from the Fathers.

[Kolya]

I've never heard that only one angel was God and the others were just angels. In fact, the explanations I've read would only suppor the idea that the three angles together respresent the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Could it be, rather, that we are not to say which is which for in doing so we make them separate entities? What have other's heard regarding this icon? Mike... where are you?! ;)

I have also read the interpretation of the three Angels visit to Abraham being the Son, and two archangels. These same two angels aparently were responsible for pulling Lot, his wife and daughters from Sodom.
But as I am Orthodox, I do not argue with the Official Church interpretation, and I venerate that icon as the Trinity.