Any thoughts? [Archive] - Christian Forums

ContraMundum

11th July 2005, 01:19 AM

On the Fourth Sunday of Lent (Mar 6 2005) at Christ Church Cathedral, Vancouver a former evangelical church, they read /sang the following version of Ps 23 printed in their public liturgy.

"The Lord is my shepherd, I have all I need
She makes me lie down in green meadows,
Beside the still waters, She will lead.
She restores my soul, She rights my wrongs,
She leads me in a path of good things,
And fills my heart with songs.

Though I walk, through a dark and dreary land,
There is nothing that can shake me,
She has said She won't forsake me, I'm in
Her hand.

She sets a table before me,
in the presence of my foes.
She anoints my head with oil,
And my cup overflows.

Surely, surely goodness and kindness will follow me,
All the days of my life,
And I will live in Her house,
Forever, forever and ever.

Glory be to the mother and daughter, and to the Holy of Holies. As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be, World without end. Amen"

Hmmm.....

cenimo

11th July 2005, 01:59 AM

Yeah. Feminist hype from a bogus translation.

If my church did that it'd be time to say sayonara.

Aymn27

11th July 2005, 01:59 AM

Oh man!!! Don't even get me started on that....ROFL:confused: :doh: :sick: :cry:

ahab

11th July 2005, 06:02 AM

Yes, I have some thoughts. Their website says they are of open minds, indeed they are but its a pity they havent discovered yet. Jesus said, I and the Father are one John 10:30. Jesus said "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." one would have thought a church would have had Him revealed. Jesus says that if we have seen Him we have seen the Father. If we want to know what God is like we have Jesus, God made flesh How can they lead people to Christ Jesus if they dont know Him?

peace:)

Father Rick

11th July 2005, 07:47 AM

While I disagree with changing gender tenses from what has always been in both Scripture and Tradition, I can at least understand the argument that since God (the Father) is a spirit and therefore has no body that either gender could be used for Him.

However-- changing Jesus to the 'daughter' is just out there. I guess their translation of scripture says it was "Jessica" that died on the cross...

Ok... that's my rant...

PaladinValer

11th July 2005, 08:05 AM

I can somewhat understand why, but in the end, I highly disagree with what is in their public liturgy.

ContraMundum

11th July 2005, 08:56 AM

While I disagree with changing gender tenses from what has always been in both Scripture and Tradition, I can at least understand the argument that since God (the Father) is a spirit and therefore has no body that either gender could be used for Him.

Well, to be honest, I can't even come to that. Something about God's relation to creation, natural theology and the Hebraic symbolism in scripture (that sets it apart from the pagans) just makes the whole masculine gender language make sense. This of course is meant in the context of revelation....ytou know what I mean...you went to theology school too! :)

However-- changing Jesus to the 'daughter' is just out there. I guess their translation of scripture says it was "Jessica" that died on the cross...

Not to mention the Holy Spirit relegated to language given in scripture for a place, not a person.

I guess we'd all agree that this is a different God they're praying to in the end. Hmmm.....I'm sad.

ContraMundum

11th July 2005, 09:00 AM

Yes, I have some thoughts. Their website says they are of open minds

Does the Bible tell us we are to have open minds about everything?

I'm wondering.

ahab

11th July 2005, 09:12 AM

Hi Contramundum,

Does the Bible tell us we are to have open minds about everything?
I guess so, but I believe the Bible tells us to test everything 1 Thes 5:21. Had you some scripture in mind? I do know that the peace of God will guard our minds and hearts in Christ Jesus. Phil 4:7 If their minds are open, one would have thought they would have been open to all the references Jesus makes to our Father.

:wave:

ContraMundum

11th July 2005, 09:17 AM

Hi Contramundum,

I guess so, but I believe the Bible tells us to test everything 1 Thes 5:21. Had you some scripture in mind? I do know that the peace of God will guard our minds and hearts in Christ Jesus. Phil 4:7 If their minds are open, one would have thought they would have been open to all the references Jesus makes to our Father.

:wave:

Hi Brother!

It was more or less a little bit of a rhetorical question. There isn't much support for open minds in the sacred scripture, although we have to be open about some things.

I'd like discussion about that though. Where do we draw the lines?

ahab

11th July 2005, 09:53 AM

Hi Contrmundum,:)

I did think it was a rhetorical question, I was struggling to be objective,:blush: but it did get me thinking.

I am glad this 'cathedral' was pointed out as they seem to be up to other stuff we cant talk about.

Peace:)

Fish and Bread

11th July 2005, 10:20 AM

God by definition has the best aspects of both the masculine and the feminine. He "begets" (i.e. gives birth to) a son, is the creator of everything (a less direct act that is similar to birthing), and we see in the Old Testament repeated references to God as taking us into his "womb" (Or so many scholars now say), though it is usually translated differently. Yet, God clearly has masculine aspects as well. So, really, the idea of the Father part of the trinity as having either gender is a bit limited and at best an approximation. Even though Jesus was clearly male, we even have Old Testament visions of what seems to be Christ or a Christ-like figure, Divine Wisdom (or Sophia), which is always referred to as a female! St. Julian of Norwich also has writings which reference Christ *directly* in the feminine.

That said, Christ was born male and the scripture repeatedly has Jesus referring to the Father in the masculine, which is good enough for me as a reference point. I just try to bear in mind that, generally speaking, God is above categories of human gender, and our terminology of him as male is likely simply an approximation in many respects. So, yes, it sort of bothers me to hear traditional male language about God blantantly altered, but I don't get myself too wound up about it. If God himself inspired the writers of the bible to ocassionally refer to him using feminine sounding adjectives and so forth, it can't be *that* big of an issue with him, though it does sound to me as though he prefers to have himself depicted as masculine, which is why I stick to the masculine depiction in my own speech, writings, and prayers. :)

John

AveMaria

11th July 2005, 10:36 AM

I'm curious if this is the sort of language they always use, or if this was done for a point.

My mom once attended a church where the pastor did a service every few years using feminine pronouns to refer either to God or to the Holy Ghost (I don't think they used 'em for Jesus, I'd have to ask), just to make people think about what it means to use gendered pronouns for God and the implications of God having a male gender.

Apparently, the senior pastor did a fantastic sermon talking about God's feminine side/aspects and how they tend to get glossed over, and whether or not exclusive use of masculine pronouns for God alienated anyone and how it shaped individual thought and images.

Done in that context, I don't have a problem with it. I'm also fond of how Madeline L'Engle writes about God using 'Godself' and 'el' as pronouns.

ahab

11th July 2005, 11:16 AM

Yes God has feminine characteristics and we are all, male and female, ‘sons’ because sons traditionally inherit, but the Jesus did not refer to the Father as mother and Jesus was a son and is the Son, not a daughter. Neither did David write what this cathedral is supposed to have written.

John 8:20 "You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also."

John 10:30 “I and the Father are one."

John 14:7 “If you really knew me, you would my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Nuff said
IMO this liturgy is dysfunctional nonsense.

Peace:)

PaladinValer

11th July 2005, 12:20 PM

God is, however, just as much a Mother as He is a Father. God simply chooses to play the Father role in terms of spirituality than Mother. Nothing wrong nor sexist with this.

It would be sexist, however, to ignore the Maternal side of God. God is both to me, though He is my Father in Heaven always.

alban

11th July 2005, 12:38 PM

Yikes- i think if i posted anymore then i would get a warning :eek:

cenimo

11th July 2005, 12:44 PM

No matter how anyone trie to defend the language of the verses in the OP, such things as that rendition of the 23rd Psalm are just a foot-in-the-door attempt to get something like that accepted and then eventually GAIA, "The Great Mu" or whatever, then earth-mother, etc.

Jesus was God in human form. Fully God, fully human, no gender bending.
[/story]

Rev. Smith

11th July 2005, 02:02 PM

"In the image of God he created them, nale and female created he them"

There is a fair sized movement out there to bring the divine feminine into the Christian faith. In some ways this is positive, at their hearts these feminist theologians remain Christian, believeing in the essential truth and compleatness of the Christian faith. For them there is no appeal in the thousands of small sects of neo-pagan "goddess" cults.

The sad thing is that, like this re-mix of the Psalm, we go to far. Is it proper to call the Father "Mother", it certainly cuts against tradition and orthodoxy, but as Fr. Rick points out, the father is either genderless, or as the above passage points, at once both.

Feminist yearnings aside, Jesus was born male, and calling him daughter robs an essential part of his nature.

What troubles me about this alleged psalm that the gender bending of the Incarnation of God on earth is that at every turn they have robbed it of its meaning, the valley of death is more than a dreary place - God's promise id that he will sustain us through even the most harrowing experience, not through a rainy day on vacation.

Can I pray to God the Mother, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit? Sure. Do I want to pray to the vague, weak and unimpressive God of this Psalm? Not a chance.

cenimo

12th July 2005, 12:56 AM

OK, in the spirit of equal time, let's quote other Scriptures the same way:

like "Be on guard against Satan, the old dragonness, for she is the Mother of Lies, the Princess of the Power of the Air, that roaring lioness, seeking whom she may devour."

Or, "And then she took Jesus to a high mountaintop and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world, and then she said to Him, 'All this will I give you, if you will but fall down and worship me.'"

Or, "When the Sons of God came came in to stand before the Lord, Satan came in with them. The Lord said to her, 'From whence have you come?' 'From patrolling the earth and walking up and down it,' she replied."

Lucifer has a feminine side too, you know.

Maybe we should call her "Lucy".

ContraMundum

12th July 2005, 01:15 AM

Lucifer has a feminine side too, you know.

Maybe we should call her "Lucy".

You've got courage cenimo!

I'm running for cover! :D

ahab

12th July 2005, 01:55 AM

IMO that’s just a dysfunctional gender hangup. God is our Father, who we call Father, because the One who is God tells us so.
:)

pmcleanj

12th July 2005, 07:48 AM

I'm curious if this is the sort of language they always use, or if this was done for a point.
It most likely was done for a point. The Fourth Sunday of Lent is "Mothering Sunday" -- the Anglo version of Mothers Day that predates the Hallmark holiday in May by some centuries. It celebrates the role of the Motherchurch (or Cathedral) typically by giving servants a half-day off so they can go home and take flowers to their mothers. Emphasizing the "mothering" nature of God on that day is liturgically appropriate, and as a "special" Sunday, lay groups are often given the opportunity to lead some aspect of the service with that focus.

I heard a truly -- memorable -- version of "Faith of our Mothers, Living Yet" re-written and sung by a choir of teenage girls one Mothering Sunday in a small-town church on the isolated prairie, 20-odd years ago.

Better to hash up an old hymn, than Scripture. If I had been the liturgist, I imagine I could have found some Scripture that illustrated God's mothering nature, without having to change the actual text.

ahab

12th July 2005, 10:37 AM

ContraMundum

12th July 2005, 10:45 AM

Hi avemaria,:wave:

AveMaria http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-by-right.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifI'm curious if this is the sort of language they always use, or if this was done for a point.

Me too, but I would say there is no point, its pointless. Its just plain wrong, Jesus was not a daughter and Jesus doesnt refer to His Father in heaven as a mother. I know its Jesus that convicts people of the truth but if the church doesnt know what it is talking about how can we lead people to Jesus?

Peace:)

Great point. To further it, what does a church praying to this version of God lead someone to, if not the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit of the Bible?

Can they lead someone to the Mother, Daughter and Holy of Holies? Can you baptise in that name?

Lord have mercy!

Fish and Bread

12th July 2005, 11:01 AM

OK, in the spirit of equal time, let's quote other Scriptures the same way:

like "Be on guard against Satan, the old dragonness, for she is the Mother of Lies, the Princess of the Power of the Air, that roaring lioness, seeking whom she may devour."

Sounds like one of my ex-girlfriends. ;)

Lucifer has a feminine side too, you know.

Angels are genderless, so, yes, in some respects Satan is as much a female as a male. Male just tends to be the default gender genderless beings are assigned because we don't have gender-neutral pronouns. Still, I feel most comfortable using the gender that is most commonly assigned to God, Satan, etc., in the scriptures as that seems to be the approximation God prefers that we go with. I just don't feel the need to storm the battlements and demand that the people who use the feminine forms repent, because I don't think that what they're saying is technically incorrect, even though it isn't what I think should be the preferred usage. :)

John

cenimo

12th July 2005, 11:41 AM

Fish and Bread

Sounds like one of my ex-girlfriends. ;)

You're killing me!

:)

Inside Edge

12th July 2005, 12:42 PM

I'm curious if this is the sort of language they always use, or if this was done for a point.

A very good point. It's not, at least to my knowledge and experience. For specifics, I could ask the rector of this church, if people are truly interested in more information.My educated guess, at this time, is that it was somewhat of an experiment - just something to shake people from their complacency, to spark the very discussion we're having here.
The other thing to keep in mind is that this is the sort of Anglican "mother's day," (as pmcleanj has already said, I read after I wrote this); its not a regular part of their liturgy.

Can I pray to God the Mother, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit? Sure. Do I want to pray to the vague, weak and unimpressive God of this Psalm? Not a chance.

I totally agree - and with the comment that the problem with trying to open things up a little bit, we often go too far. Referring to Jesus as a woman is ridiculous.

Great point. To further it, what does a church praying to this version of God lead someone to
Not really a great point, actually. Again, I bring everyone's attention to the fact that we're all a lot more "hardcore" than most people out there. I really doubt that anyone at that service considered themselves "praying" to "Jesus the daughter." My impression is that it was supposed to be a cute twist on the words (albeit a dumb twist) to grab people's attention and "mum-up" the service for this particular Sunday. No one was claiming that it was actually "Psalm 23" or some new interpretation of it. There was no agenda, no foot-in-the-door plan to allow pagan symbols, references, or rites into the Christian tradition.

These aren't the droids you're looking for. Move along, move along.

julian the apostate

12th July 2005, 01:35 PM

Aymn27

12th July 2005, 01:59 PM

good post inside edge<<<<<

"Again, I bring everyone's attention to the fact that we're all a lot more "hardcore" than most people out there. I really doubt that anyone at that service considered themselves "praying" to "Jesus the daughter." My impression is that it was supposed to be a cute twist on the words (albeit a dumb twist) to grab people's attention and "mum-up" the service for this particular Sunday. No one was claiming that it was actually "Psalm 23" or some new interpretation of it. There was no agenda, no foot-in-the-door plan to allow pagan symbols, references, or rites into the Christian tradition. "
Actually, the feminist who advocate this type of thing speak of Jesus as Sophia-prophet or something like that. The head of feminist studies at my university is one of these and actually has some writing on record that says the Trinity is homosexual b/c the Holy Spirit is female and procreated with Mary - thus a homosexual union.

While I do agree that a feminist perspective is needed in matters of faith/theology, I completely reject this type of nonsense that tries to make God, "female". As someone stated earlier, God is Spirit therefore has no gender. However, the Bible overwhelmingly refers to God as Father, King, etc and refers to the Holy Spirit as He and of course, Jesus is male. There are metaphorical descriptions of the feminine qualities of God, however, that does not make him female. All persons have masculine and feminine qualites.

I believe these feminists, instead of substituting a female version of God for a male one - which will produce the same type of results they are trying to overcome - should focus on creating and celebrating what a good, loving, healthy father looks like and acts like and how he treats his children. Too many fathers are abusive or absent in our society - which is where I think the hostility towards males comes from. Instead of presenting God as Mother - and creating an alternatively dangerous metaphorical description- we should present Him as He is - good, faithful, almighty, loving, etc...

UberLutheran

12th July 2005, 02:55 PM

Let's see: scores dead in Haiti and Cuba; 350,000 people without power on the Gulf Coast; massive flooding in Mississippi and Alabama; and four million people in the United States went to bed hungry last night.

So we're venting our outrage about the use of the feminine when referring to God.

What would Jesus do? Feed the hungry, and comfort those who had lost their homes and loved ones.

By the way -- Hurricane Emily is predicted to be a major hurricane by this weekend when it enters the Gulf of Mexico. :sigh:

julian the apostate

12th July 2005, 03:00 PM

amen uber

Inside Edge

12th July 2005, 03:25 PM

Thanks, julian. :)

Actually, the feminist who advocate this type of thing speak of Jesus as Sophia-prophet or something like that. The head of feminist studies at my university is one of these and actually has some writing on record that says the Trinity is homosexual b/c the Holy Spirit is female and procreated with Mary - thus a homosexual union.

Sure, I think this kind of thinking (or re-thinking) is out to lunch (at least when adhered to beyond an academic exersize of some sort). But I really think you should take heart (or at least notice) in that most people aren't buying into this sort of stuff by and large; and most, when they do participate in "femmed-up" renditions of a service it is only once in a while and there is no spirit or intent like the professor's you've made reference too. There's always going to be off-the-wall ideas out there and a few people who preach them.

Let's see: scores dead in Haiti and Cuba; 350,000 people without power on the Gulf Coast; massive flooding in Mississippi and Alabama; and four million people in the United States went to bed hungry last night...So we're venting our outrage about the use of the feminine when referring to God.
Your point is well take, Uber. But we could apply this to any topic of discussion. Logically, why become upset about & discuss anything at all other than the largest and most tragic events or conditions? I'm sure no one here would maintain that the church's gaffe (the one mentioned in the OP) is a more pressing matter than large scale human tragedy.

UberLutheran

12th July 2005, 07:08 PM

Your point is well take, Uber. But we could apply this to any topic of discussion. Logically, why become upset about & discuss anything at all other than the largest and most tragic events or conditions? I'm sure no one here would maintain that the church's gaffe (the one mentioned in the OP) is a more pressing matter than large scale human tragedy.

I've been trying to propel a group of Catholic, Episcopal, Lutheran, Methodist and Presbyterians churches in my area into working together to equip "flood buckets" for people whose houses were flooded by Hurricane Dennis, and I've heard every excuse NOT to help other people: "It's too hot." "That's our family night." "They don't believe the same way we do." (Yes, someone actually said that!)

I got disgusted enough by the excuses to tell a group of ministers, "Well, I'm sure glad I wasn't the person lying in the road, because evidently I'd still be waiting for the Good Samaritan to come along!" -- which seemed to work, except that by the time we get this stuff together and sent, we'll be dealing with Hurricane Emily!

There are times when I really want to say, "Will you just cut the **** and act like disciples?" which is probably a good reason why Jesus is the Messiah (and I'm not).