The Old Testament God

[AudioArtist]

I've already posted this in some other forums, but I wasn't really satisfied with the responses. I'd like to hear the Orthadox interpretation; anything help will be good, as my faith is smashed by these issues.

I know I am expected to believe the Bible is the Word of God, and I can do that for a fair chunk of it. But how on earth can I cope with verses like these? My conscience just cannot accept what is written. I am not writing this post with malicious intent in any way, I am just wondering how mature Christians can deal with verses like these in the Old Testament.

I Samuel 15:3 "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and WOMAN, INFANT, AND SUCKLING, ox and sheep, camel and ass."

Numbers 31:17 "Now therefore kill EVERY MALE AMONG THE LITTLE ONES, and kill EVERY WOMAN that hath known man by lying with him."

Numbers 31:18 "But of the WOMEN CHILDREN that have not known a man by lying with him, KEEP ALIVE for yourselves."
Isaiah 13:15-16 "Everyone that is found shall be thrust through, and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. THEIR CHILDREN ALSO SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES BEFORE THEIR EYES; their houses shall be spoiled, and their WIVES RAVISHED."

Deuteronomy 2:34 "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the LITTLE ONES, of every city, we left NONE to remain."

Deuteronomy 3:6-7 "and we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves."

Ezekiel 9:5-6 "...Go ye after him through the city, and smite; let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: slay utterly old and young, both maids, and LITTLE CHILDREN, and woman..."

Hosea 13:16 "Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God; they shall fall by the sword; their infants shall be dashed into pieces, and THEIR WOMEN WITH CHILD SHALL BE RIPPED UP."

[Rick of Wessex]

Dear AudioArtist,

Fr. Andrew Phillips, parish priest of Ss. Felix & Edmund in Felixtowe, England, presented some answers to a question similar to yours.

Here's his response:

Thank you for your message and question which seems to be based on a very simple misunderstanding.

First of all, there is only One God.

Secondly, there are many religions.

Why?

Because each religion, except the true one, is based on a human understanding of God. All of these, except the true one, contain truth confused with untruth.

I think everybody agrees about this. Where we disagree is in our definition and understanding of truth and untruth, and hence our choice of the true religion. Such a choice is usually conditioned by cultural considerations.

The human understanding of God is called 'anthropomorphism', this means seeing and understanding God not as He is, but in a human form. The Old Testament, as you point out, is full of anthropomorphisms: God takes revenge, God hardens the heart, God punishes, God kills etc etc. In other words God is seen as an Almighty Emperor, Who kills, Who destroys etc etc.

Here parallels can be drawn with the primitive myths of the Ancient Greeks, who marry, rape, kill, are subject to human passions. The value of the Old Testament, at least from the Orthodox Christian viewpoint is not in these anthropomorphisms, it is in the revelations concerning the Coming of Christ. This is why the Church uses the Book of Psalms and the other Books of Prophets so much, whereas other parts are very little used or read (for example Deuteronomy, Leviticus, the ritual food laws, and the Historical Books (called Kingdoms in the Orthodox text). This is also why, for instance, the Orthodox Church has daily readings from the Scriptures which are taken not from the Old Testament, but from the Gospels and the Epistles. The 'Old' Testament is indeed old, not new.

It is unfortunate that at the Reformation the Protestants reverted to such a large extent to the Old Testament, rather like the Jews and even the Muslims. Indeed the Protestants even used the tenth century Jewish text of the Old Testament for their translation, rather than the far older (by twelve centuries) Greek translation, which, in Hebrew, was the version which Christ quoted from in the New Testament.

It is not surprising to see then how the word fundamentalist is used to qualify both Protestants and Muslims. Neither is it surprising to learn that the Protestant Reformation was encouraged and even financed by Jews, especially in Holland (the same ones whose descendants later financed Cromwell's civil war). The common enemy was after all inquisitorial Catholicism. Hardly surprising either to discover that in Protestant countries they describe the West as 'Judeo-Christian'.

As Christians we should constantly make the effort not to fall back into the Old Testament, reverting to the primitive understanding of God, as a vengeful God, unforgiving, an 'eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth', which is embodied in the practices of the Israeli State today. The Great Revelation of the Son of God (the highest Revelation in the history of religion from the Christian viewpoint) is that God is Love. This was simply undreamed of in the Old Testament, where God is largely understood as the defender of the Jews. This says nothing about the nature of God, but a lot about the nature of Jewish culture. This is why the vast majority of the Jews rejected Christ, because he turned out not to be an anti-Roman ethnic freedom-fighter, but a spiritual leader. The Jews were so disappointed that they murdered Him. This is also why, if the Old Testament is to be read, it must be read with understanding. Best of all, though, read the New Testament and master that. You cannot understand the Old Testament if you do not first read it through the eyes of the New Testament. Again, the emphasis of fundamentalist Protestants is all wrong.

Answer taken from the sectionAsk Fr. Andrew (http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/answers.htm) of the Orthodox England (http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm) homepage.

[Maximus]

Dear AudioArtist,

Fr. Andrew Phillips, parish priest of Ss. Felix & Edmund in Felixtowe, England, presented some answers to a question similar to yours.

Here's his response:

Thank you for your message and question which seems to be based on a very simple misunderstanding.

First of all, there is only One God.

Secondly, there are many religions.

Why?

Because each religion, except the true one, is based on a human understanding of God. All of these, except the true one, contain truth confused with untruth.

I think everybody agrees about this. Where we disagree is in our definition and understanding of truth and untruth, and hence our choice of the true religion. Such a choice is usually conditioned by cultural considerations.

The human understanding of God is called 'anthropomorphism', this means seeing and understanding God not as He is, but in a human form. The Old Testament, as you point out, is full of anthropomorphisms: God takes revenge, God hardens the heart, God punishes, God kills etc etc. In other words God is seen as an Almighty Emperor, Who kills, Who destroys etc etc.

Here parallels can be drawn with the primitive myths of the Ancient Greeks, who marry, rape, kill, are subject to human passions. The value of the Old Testament, at least from the Orthodox Christian viewpoint is not in these anthropomorphisms, it is in the revelations concerning the Coming of Christ. This is why the Church uses the Book of Psalms and the other Books of Prophets so much, whereas other parts are very little used or read (for example Deuteronomy, Leviticus, the ritual food laws, and the Historical Books (called Kingdoms in the Orthodox text). This is also why, for instance, the Orthodox Church has daily readings from the Scriptures which are taken not from the Old Testament, but from the Gospels and the Epistles. The 'Old' Testament is indeed old, not new.

It is unfortunate that at the Reformation the Protestants reverted to such a large extent to the Old Testament, rather like the Jews and even the Muslims. Indeed the Protestants even used the tenth century Jewish text of the Old Testament for their translation, rather than the far older (by twelve centuries) Greek translation, which, in Hebrew, was the version which Christ quoted from in the New Testament.

It is not surprising to see then how the word fundamentalist is used to qualify both Protestants and Muslims. Neither is it surprising to learn that the Protestant Reformation was encouraged and even financed by Jews, especially in Holland (the same ones whose descendants later financed Cromwell's civil war). The common enemy was after all inquisitorial Catholicism. Hardly surprising either to discover that in Protestant countries they describe the West as 'Judeo-Christian'.

As Christians we should constantly make the effort not to fall back into the Old Testament, reverting to the primitive understanding of God, as a vengeful God, unforgiving, an 'eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth', which is embodied in the practices of the Israeli State today. The Great Revelation of the Son of God (the highest Revelation in the history of religion from the Christian viewpoint) is that God is Love. This was simply undreamed of in the Old Testament, where God is largely understood as the defender of the Jews. This says nothing about the nature of God, but a lot about the nature of Jewish culture. This is why the vast majority of the Jews rejected Christ, because he turned out not to be an anti-Roman ethnic freedom-fighter, but a spiritual leader. The Jews were so disappointed that they murdered Him. This is also why, if the Old Testament is to be read, it must be read with understanding. Best of all, though, read the New Testament and master that. You cannot understand the Old Testament if you do not first read it through the eyes of the New Testament. Again, the emphasis of fundamentalist Protestants is all wrong.

Answer taken from the sectionAsk Fr. Andrew (http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/answers.htm) of the Orthodox England (http://www.orthodoxengland.btinternet.co.uk/hp.htm) homepage.

Wow, Rick!

That is the best explanation of that I have ever read.

That should be placed in our St. Athanasius Reference Thingee somewhere.

Super! :thumbsup:

[Erik3]

First let me say, I think that is a good explaination.

However, God is Described as a loving God throughout the Old Testament.

Also, If Christ viewed the Old Testament as valid scripture, how are we to reconcile dimissing it as the Jewish Culture's understanding of God, which to me seemed to be what the explaination was suggesting Christians do.

[Servus Iesu]

So did God command the Jews to put pagans to the sword or not?

[AudioArtist]

Thanks for the answer. It was an interesting one, although I'm not sure one can just ignore bits of of the Bible. However, I do believe the revelation of Christ supercedes such verses.

[choirfiend]

I dont think it's a matter of ignoring them, but understanding them in the context what came afterwards...There's a number of good resources for this topic; I'm sure someone will post some more soon.

[Pyotr]

Mmm, kay...I don't have any citations for you...but I wrote a post about this on OC . net

Here it is:

www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=3409.msg43355#msg43355 (http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=3409.msg43355#msg43355)

(Edited to put in link, since I now have 15 posts! ;) )

[Marjorie]

The Fathers loved the Scriptures and considered them completely true but ONLY when viewed through the revelation of Jesus Christ. Everything must be interpreted with Jesus Christ in mind. Only then do the treasures of Scripture (Scripture meaning mainly the Old Testament in the early Church Fathers' minds) appear.

Remember that unlike the Muslims we do not believe that we received our Scripture directly from an angel. It is a divine-human work-- completely without error-- but spoken through human beings, in human terms, and in the terms of their own cultures. This is NOT a means of setting aside parts of Scriptures that are uncomfortable. It is just as uncomfortable for me to think that the end of Psalm 137 (LXX 136) is referring to God's enemies the demons and their followers being destroyed as it is for me to think of Bablyonian infants being destroyed. More uncomfortable, because I am not a Babylonian infant, but I might well be a follower of demons.

In IC XC,
Marjorie