Does the Bible teach Equality?

[SPALATIN]

I have had a few PMs with another in the ELCA forum over the Women in ministry thread since I could not post there without getting in trouble I used the PM to communicate to him.

I am curious, Do you think that God's word teaches us that we are to be equal with each other?

Are there any verses that indicate this? I am thinking that equality is a man-made issue insofar as we understand it.

What are your thoughts?

[ChiRho]

I have had a few PMs with another in the ELCA forum over the Women in ministry thread since I could not post there without getting in trouble I used the PM to communicate to him.

I am curious, Do you think that God's word teaches us that we are to be equal with each other?

Are there any verses that indicate this? I am thinking that equality is a man-made issue insofar as we understand it.

What are your thoughts?

ROMANS 3

"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


3for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The great equalizer. :cool:

[SPALATIN]

ROMANS 3

"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."


3for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

The great equalizer. :cool:

As I said as Sinners we are equal, but what about equality of Men and women or as in the OT the Jews were the Chosen people and didn't God put them above others. Does he not still today favor those who believe over those who don't?

Are we to strive for equality? Your verses above show that we eqaul in guilt for our sins. I see verses in the NT that say the Man is head of the household and that a woman should submit to him as the church submits to Christ. So is that equal? Seems to me that striving to be equal is something we as sinners want, but that God does not require.

[ChiRho]

As I said as Sinners we are equal,

As you said? I don't find that in the OP. I will continue to look though. ;)

but what about equality of Men and women or as in the OT the Jews were the Chosen people and didn't God put them above others. Does he not still today favor those who believe over those who don't?

He is saddened by those who do not trust in Him. But he finds favor in Christ, and us through Christ.

Are we to strive for equality?

Ofcourse, but it is a term that must be defined first. Also it must be determined which Kingdom are we speaking of, Left or Right?

Your verses above show that we eqaul in guilt for our sins. I see verses in the NT that say the Man is head of the household and that a woman should submit to him as the church submits to Christ.So is that equal? Seems to me that striving to be equal is something we as sinners want, but that God does not require.

And he to love his wife as Christ loves the Church catholic...I see no inequality described, but different responsibilities handed out. There is structure, but who says that one role is any less vital than another? A pastor must serve, this is not a position of glory or greatness according to how we usually judge vocations. The king is served and the peasants serve. This is just a case of "I want what you have been given," nothing more. It is fueled by society's "She can do anything a guy can do...and better" power and domination mantra. Remember, God told us this would happen:

Genesis 3

16 To the woman He said,
"I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you."


Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[LilLamb219]

I'm not sure what sort of equality you mean since at first I thought you were speaking of equality between men and women but then you said something about the believers and unbelievers.

For men and women, I was going to write...and will now write LOL... that in salvation we are all equal but in our vocations we each have things we are to do and the other doesn't have that "gift". Such as birthing babies. Women were given that gift to give birth, but men were given the gift to be pastors. One is physical and the other is scriptural ;)

As for equality of believers/unbelievers, God loves those who are in Christ and we will have eternal life. :)

Edited to say it's also in the scriptures that women give birth LOL

[ChiRho]

I'm not sure what sort of equality you mean since at first I thought you were speaking of equality between men and women but then you said something about the believers and unbelievers.

For men and women, I was going to write...and will now write LOL... that in salvation we are all equal but in our vocations we each have things we are to do and the other doesn't have that "gift". Such as birthing babies. Women were given that gift to give birth, but men were given the gift to be pastors. One is physical and the other is scriptural ;)

As for equality of believers/unbelievers, God loves those who are in Christ and we will have eternal life. :)

Edited to say it's also in the scriptures that women give birth LOL

Fantastic LilLamb. With the culture of death at hand and the popularity of abortion, it seems as though pregnancy and labor are seen almost strictly as loathsome tasks- even sometimes in the Christian end of society. It is a common joke for women to try and place guilt upon men for not having to be pregnant and give birth. I understand there is pain and discomfort, but let us not dismiss the blessing. It is a very special honor for God to give the act of birthing and nurturing a child to the woman.

Pax Christi,

ChiRho

[SPALATIN]

Okay,

I need to be descript. LilLamb hit on it some in her post and so did ChiRho. I think that if we look at the right kingdom we have to say that we are equal in that we are sinners. In the left kingdom we are equal in that we all have a vocation(s) through which we are witnesses of Christ.

In my discussion with the ELCA person he argued that women, if they are able should be Pastors. I said that it is not a matter of equality in legal terms that she should or should not be a Pastor. What I should have said was it is not her vocation to do this and it has nothing to do with equality. His argument is that if she is able to do it she should be allowed.

So really it is about our God-given talents and vocation that give us the framework here and not about equal rights and ability.

[Jenna]

Some find me to be less than bright, but I simply do not see what equality has to do with a woman being a pastor. We (the church) are all equal, in that we are sinners and recieve salvation as a gift from God, through Jesus Christ. I don't understand why it is that people have a problem with the concept of 'equal but different'. I may be hollered at for being an ignorant woman who must like to be dragged around by her hair, but I firmly believe that God has set aside roles for men and women FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT.

The long and short of it is, how can you glorify God by doing something that His word speaks against? If a woman does not have the authority to teach a congregation of men, then how can she be doing what is right, no matter how beautiful her speech? Do women believe themselves smarter than our Creator?

*shrugs* I guess that in this, I do fall most in agreement with the WELS. We (women) are blessed to have the experiences and positions that God has given us. We should seek to always be thankful for what we HAVE been given, and not always seeking to take what has been given to men.

[ChiRho]

Some find me to be less than bright, but I simply do not see what equality has to do with a woman being a pastor. We (the church) are all equal, in that we are sinners and recieve salvation as a gift from God, through Jesus Christ. I don't understand why it is that people have a problem with the concept of 'equal but different'. I may be hollered at for being an ignorant woman who must like to be dragged around by her hair, but I firmly believe that God has set aside roles for men and women FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT.

The long and short of it is, how can you glorify God by doing something that His word speaks against? If a woman does not have the authority to teach a congregation of men, then how can she be doing what is right, no matter how beautiful her speech? Do women believe themselves smarter than our Creator?

*shrugs* I guess that in this, I do fall most in agreement with the WELS. We (women) are blessed to have the experiences and positions that God has given us. We should seek to always be thankful for what we HAVE been given, and not always seeking to take what has been given to men.


Quality as usual, Jenna. Fear not when they holler or come frenzied and seethed with gnashed teeth. This sort of "ignorance", is of the same "foolishness" that Christ Crucified is. Your alligiance is not to their movement but to the unwithering and unchanging word of God. But you already know this (one could not write as you did without it). :cool:

[ByzantineDixie]

Well, y'all have beat me to the punch. Excellent discussion and some dead-on observations.


And he to love his wife as Christ loves the Church catholic...I see no inequality described, but different responsibilities handed out. There is structure, but who says that one role is any less vital than another? A pastor must serve, this is not a position of glory or greatness according to how we usually judge vocations.

PERFECT...I find it quite frustrating to see those in the church attempt to say the God-given roles of men and women are unequal, weighted to the favor of the man. I expect this kind of goofy analysis in the corporate world (I'd like to see how successful that CEO would be if the guys and gals in accounts receivables didn't make certain the cash was coming in) but it saddens me to see the people of God hoodwinked by such a messed up worldly mentality.


I don't understand why it is that people have a problem with the concept of 'equal but different'. I may be hollered at for being an ignorant woman who must like to be dragged around by her hair, but I firmly believe that God has set aside roles for men and women FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT.

Exactly!!! For all God's people to trust Him that...let that be our prayer.

[night2day]

...I simply do not see what equality has to do with a woman being a pastor. We (the church) are all equal, in that we are sinners and recieve salvation as a gift from God, through Jesus Christ. I don't understand why it is that people have a problem with the concept of 'equal but different'...I firmly believe that God has set aside roles for men and women FOR OUR OWN BENEFIT.

As do I. God designed men and women to be differnt physically, emotionally, and mentally. Each has its own general innate natural roles. While they are corrupted as we live in this world of sin, they still yet exist. And they will always be there regardless if an individual decides to turn away from them or not.

Personally, I think many within the church who push for women ministers have fallen into the basic trap of thinking that the church is some type of mere business itself. The business concept of "equality oppertunity employment" transfers over into the hearts and minds into the members who don't read their Bibles or feel the church needs to "keep up more" with what society demands. In this referance, God is not seen as having set men to be the spiritual leaders of the church, it was more a form of Patriartical control. In this regard I can only view women wanting to be in the ministery as pastors and fighting for their "rights" as wanting to be in a position of "power" within this area of life too.

Of the denominations that have accepted women ministers, all of them have stated more or less that one may pick and choose how the Bible can be read and interperted. Unless, one simply reads the Bible as it is, for what it says.

The long and short of it is, how can you glorify God by doing something that His word speaks against? If a woman does not have the authority to teach a congregation of men, then how can she be doing what is right, no matter how beautiful her speech? Do women believe themselves smarter than our Creator?

There's a deep problem in Christiandom whereas it's not "saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ" when there's conviction by the Holy Spirit. More or less there'll be more resting within emotions and feelings based on what the individual wants. "The Bible's outdated. It was meant for centuries ago, not today." That's not glorifying God. That's glorifying one's self.

All this is related to other matters. Ultimately though, one will end up in Genesis 3 which the serpent first questioned Eve; "Did God really say?"

[catzinjammies]

The age old problem we sinners face daily, of coveting that which our neighbor has. If my neighbor has it and I do not it isn't "fair". If that man can be a pastor why can't I? (Just for the record I have never desired to be a pastor, but am guilty none the less, because I have thought myself to be wiser in some regards...FOOL!) Nevermind the countless blessings God has given me and intrusted me with, I must have that which I was not given....surely it's better. That I want something for which I am not suited for is just nit-picking, that I want something God has not chosen to give me is further nit-picking. Surely I know better where my talents lay...... That He loves me in the face of such rebelion is proof enough of His awesome grace. God forgive me, a covetous sinner!!!

CIJ

[Jim47]

I don't know that I can add much to this thread, but there is a lot of scripture that touches on this. Sorry of this isn't what you are looking for.

One Body, Many Parts

1Co 12:12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.

1Co 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

1Co 12:14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.

1Co 12:15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.

1Co 12:16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.

1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?

1Co 12:18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.

1Co 12:19 If they were all one part, where would the body be?

1Co 12:20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

1Co 12:21 The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don’t need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don’t need you!"

1Co 12:22 On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,

1Co 12:23 and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,

1Co 12:24 while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,

1Co 12:25 so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.

1Co 12:26 If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

1Co 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

1Co 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?

1Co 12:30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues ? Do all interpret?

1Co 12:31 But eagerly desire the greater gifts.



Jesus didn't consider equality something we should strive for.

Imitating Christ’s Humility

Phil 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves. 4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.

Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,

did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,

taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

Phil 2:8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

and became obedient to death—

even death on a cross!


There are others too, but I can't find them at the minute.

I think the main thing to remember is we all have a place in life, and just as Paul said, the whole body os not made up of one part but many, and each part has its place and function, and none are more important than the other parts. Man is not greater than woman, and woman is not greater than man, we have a role to play, and when choose to follow the role that God gave us, we give honor to God and serve His kingdom as "He" designed it.

[C.F.W. Walther]

Well stated Jim. To missquote a blurb I heard at a non-dem church. "God said it. i believe it and that's it!" Or something like that :).

When not taking the position of a servant we like to take the position of God sometimes.

[ILoveYeshua]

if everyone is equal, then i am equal to you who is equal to peter who is equal to judas iscariot. however, i believe rather that we are all individuals, specially and specifically created and personally led by God through Christ. We have an equal responsibility to love God wholeheartedly, with all our mind and strength too, and to love our neighbor as ourself. We have an equal obligation to abide by the law. We should be the servant of all, so if we treat all people as though they were our master, (in honor of Christ our master, who served all), then we would do well towards establishing an equal society that would be pleasant to live in.

So we're not equal, but we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, those of us who believe in him and confess him, who have been baptized into him and love him. Love your neighbor..... AS yourself.

Make believe your neighbor is you. love him.