I have done my searching...

[SirTimothy]

And I cannot find any Biblical support for the idea of the Bible being the Word of God. I've got a bunch of ultra-reformed people staying here, and we were debating it... anyone got any suggestions--particularly councils of the church!--to help me discuss it with them?

Timothy

[gtsecc]

And I cannot find any Biblical support for the idea of the Bible being the Word of God. I've got a bunch of ultra-reformed people staying here, and we were debating it... anyone got any suggestions--particularly councils of the church!--to help me discuss it with them?

Timothy

The Church is the pillar of all truth.

[Mysterium_Fidei]

The Lord Christ is the Word of God, the logos. The Bible is a collection of inspired, sacred texts. The give the scriptures the title "Word of God" is idolatry. However, when used in the sense that the scriptures are "What God has said", "what God has breathed", there is no problem. We need to differentiate between both theological understandings.

[Fish and Bread]

I think to some the bible is God and to others the church is God. Yet, of course, in reality, only God is God. The bible and the church are both wonderful gifts that can help lead us to God, but are only valuable in so far as they achieve that goal and not as unique entities in and of themselves. I think the flaw of Roman Catholicism is too much emphasis on church and the flaw of Protestanism is too much emphasis on scripture. One of the wonderful things about Anglicanism is that, at it's best, by having so many different sources to draw upon, eventually the importance of the sources themselves can fade to the background and then it is only the Lord who remains, revealed through scripture, church, reason, science, and our own human experiences of life and love.

John

[Wigglesworth]

The give the scriptures the title "Word of God" is idolatry.

That's a strong point. I hadn't heard it put that way before. I have thought in the past that my old Fundamentalist church did worship the Bible, which is in line with what you are saying.

:crossrc:

[PaladinValer]

Look to Scripture and read St. John 1:1. What is the Word of God?

:bow: It's Jesus! :bow:

IMO, anyone who says the Bible is the Word of God is practicing idolatry by implication. The Bible, as proven by one of the Anglicans here (Karl - Liberal Backslider), is the words of God. :)

[SirTimothy]

Exactly. My feelings exactly. I don't use the term, but they do... and it horrifies me! Of course, we had a rather amusing anecdote told by a Cypriot friend of my brother, who assures me that his Religious Education teacher said that Protestants believe in the Bible, but not in God. ;)

Timothy

[Mysterium_Fidei]

The scary thing is many of these people who hold the Bible to be THE "Word of God", haven't read it.

[PaladinValer]

Or haven't read the whole of it, since they don't accept the whole Holy Canon ;)

[RedneckAnglican]

The scary thing is many of these people who hold the Bible to be THE "Word of God", haven't read it.

You mean we're supposed to actually READ it?!...not just hold it and smack people in the head with it who don't agree with us?...have I been doing this wrong all this time?...

[Simon_Templar]

Well, a couple of common examples would be

Timothy says that all scripture is divinely inspired (literaly "God-breathed")

Jesus says that not even one "jot or tittle" (minor parts of the writing) of the scripture will pass away, and he went on to say "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall never pass away" relating scripture and the law to "his words" and also establishing their eternal nature.

Paul refers to the Old testament scriptures as "the oracles of God".

In the OT there are examples too numerous to mention which proclaim that God's commands, words, laws, are good true etc etc.. the vast majority of these are direct refrences to the written scriptures.


on a more conceptual level.. in a very real way, your word is who you are. For example, The bible tells that there is no other name under heaven by which men may be saved than Jesus Christ. What does this mean? does this mean you have to know exactly the right spelling of the correct name in the correct language in order to be saved? what really is the name of Jesus.. is it a grouping of a few letters.. or is it really the fullness of what he said and did?

The scripture may not be God, but it is the most direct and clear revelation of God. I'm sure someone is thinking "Jesus is the most clear and direct revelation of God" and thats entirely true.. but again.. the most clear and direct revelation of Jesus we have is... scripture. You can argue all you want about which is superior, church or scripture, but they are both established by the same authority.. scripture was not established by the church, anymore than the church was established, by the church. God established both. The reason scripture is authoritative is because it is sure and unchanging. The church changes. Were it not for the anchor of scripture most of the church, perhaps all of the church today would be even more completely unrecognizable than it is now.

The problem with change is that truth is adherence to a standard. Truth is a term of relationship to a standard. Something is true if it matches up well, or perfectly to the original standard. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" establishing himself as the ultimate standard to which our faith must adhere. He and his apostles then handed down the traditions of our faith. Thus when we significantly change those traditions, teachings, practices etc.. we are quite literally diverging from the standard, ie the truth, and from Jesus Christ.

This is the basic principle C.S. Lewis was adressing in mere christianity.. he was talking about what the bare minimum standard was that someone had to adhere to in order to remain a "true" christian. (or as lewis would say, a christian at all).

[SirTimothy]

Calling it scriptures, or even saying that it was inspired by the Holy Spirit, I have no issues with. I have a great issue with it being given a title which I believe is soley reserved for our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ Himself.

Timothy

[Fish and Bread]

One way of looking at scripture is that it is men inspired by God writing about God. As such, it is a wonderful gift from God and the broad themes could be said to be the words of God himself. The New Testament in particular was written very close to the time the events occured, and thus would any significant errors in terms of recording Christ's words and deeds would have been corrected by eye witnesses -- and we can also be sure that the Apostles would have corrected any significant non-Apostolic teachings. However, I do think that like anything done by man, some very slight errors can creep in on the specifics, simply because men are fallible and limited in the scope of their scientific knowledge -- but these are generally insignificant and as a result I do not different very substantially in my view of the bible than one who believes it to be inerrant, aside from that I do not believe it to be a history or a science text, but rather a book of spirituality that in some cases includes real events.

As a result, I tend to examine by faith through the prism of scripture, reason, tradition, science, experience, and, most of all, love. We'll call it the Fish's 6-legged stool. ;)

John

[Wigglesworth]

...not just hold it and smack people in the head with it who don't agree with us?...have I been doing this wrong all this time?...

Smacking someone in the head with it may be sacrilege if you are using a KJV. Perhaps using a NKJV or an NIV would be more appropriate.

;)

[Bonifatius]

Hi Timothy,

it's the tragic of all sola scripturians that they can't prove from the bible itself that it is the word of God nor which books actually make the canon of the bible. We only have the bible and our understanding of the bible as being the Word of God through the church and the ecumenical councils.

All quotations from the bible which they would bring up refer either to the OT, to one book of the bible only or to the teaching of the Apostles, but no collection of writings as this collection just did not exist when the books of the bible were written.

All the best
Boni

[Albion]

And I cannot find any Biblical support for the idea of the Bible being the Word of God. I've got a bunch of ultra-reformed people staying here, and we were debating it... anyone got any suggestions--particularly councils of the church!--to help me discuss it with them?

Timothy

This surprises me a little, Timothy. The Bible is full of verses which describe the scriptures as divinely inspired, of highest worth and reliability, etc. I can list some for you, if that is your need.

But I also think that many people approach the Scriptures as the Word of God, or Sola Scriptura if you wish, from the wrong (and a prejudiced POV). By asking why Sola Scriptura doesn't make sense or can't be true, there is an automatic assumption that something else is. Yet that hasn't been shown to be the case, has it? No.

The fact is that we all say that we believe the Bible--Catholics, Protestants, cultists even. Therefore the question is really, and can properly ONLY be, "What else deserves to be thought equal to the scriptures, if anything?"

Answer that--and do so without citing any Bible verses--and you are approaching the subject in the logical way. We all agree on the Bible, so then what? When you do that, you find that the strongest argument (and the historical one) for the Bible as the final authority is no more complicated than that there is no basis for believing anything else its equal.

Speaking logically and not as a believer for the sake of the point, we conclude by realizing then that if the Bible is not what it says it is, we have nothing at all. There is no Tradition without Scripture. There is no history that proves Christ to be the Savior without Scripture. There is no reasoning it out. The Bible is key and it is up to anyone taking another position to prove theirs.

[SirTimothy]

Albion, I'm not arguing that the scriptures are divinely inspired. I'm arguing against the use of a title which has, since the earliest days of the church, been used for Christ Himself. I do believe the Bible was written by men inspired by God, for the purposes of teaching, correction, etc, as noted in 1 Timothy. I do NOT believe that the bible is the Holy Word of God, which is Christ himself. The Bible is extremely important--it is through the Bible that we gain a much fuller understanding of the character of God, what he has done, what he continues to do, and what he will do in the future (although that's always a bit negotiable.) I do earnestly believe that we should make sure that all our actions line up with the scriptures. I do not, however, believe that they are God. For calling them the Word of God seems to equate them to God, and that I do not believe they are. The bible is NOT the fourth member of the Trinity. It is writings of people inspired by God, about God and His people.

Timothy

[SirTimothy]

We only have the bible and our understanding of the bible as being the Word of God through the church and the ecumenical councils.

We don't even have that. For the traditions of the church--including the Ecumenical councils make it quite clear that Jesus is the Word, not the Bible.

Timothy

[Leonard]

"All Scripture is given by the inspiration of God and is profitable......"

Peter calls Paul's writings 'Scripture.'

Check out the definitions at the Nicea-Constantinopolitan and Chalcedonian Councils.

Read the Fathers. I think you will find clearly that the Church has ALWAYS and everywhere taught that the Bible texts were and are the Word of God.

Fr. Onesimus

[Albion]

Albion, I'm not arguing that the scriptures are divinely inspired. I'm arguing against the use of a title which has, since the earliest days of the church, been used for Christ Himself. I do believe the Bible was written by men inspired by God, for the purposes of teaching, correction, etc, as noted in 1 Timothy. I do NOT believe that the bible is the Holy Word of God, which is Christ himself. The Bible is extremely important--it is through the Bible that we gain a much fuller understanding of the character of God, what he has done, what he continues to do, and what he will do in the future (although that's always a bit negotiable.) I do earnestly believe that we should make sure that all our actions line up with the scriptures. I do not, however, believe that they are God. For calling them the Word of God seems to equate them to God, and that I do not believe they are. The bible is NOT the fourth member of the Trinity. It is writings of people inspired by God, about God and His people.

Timothy

I know. I was just offering some thoughts, knowing that they weren't exactly what you were thinking, but hoping some of it would make you feel easier.

I've heard this argument before, and frankly, it's a non-issue.

Jesus is the Logos, which we may translate as "Word." Fine.

But the Scriptures, I can assure you, have been called the Word of God by skads of knowledgable clergy, church publications, and so on, in many different churches. It just is another meaning of the word "Word." There's nothing remarkable about that. We deal all the time with words that have more than one meaning. Should they capitalize it? Oh, I don't know, but there's no conflict with the Logos in any case.

As for any worry about calling the Scriptures the Word of God leading to some sort of Bibliolatry or conflicting with our understanding of Jesus as Word as in John 1...it's really not the case. Of course, you have mainly my word (oops, did I say that? ;) ) for it, but really this is so.

[SirTimothy]

Peter calls Paul's writings 'Scripture.'

Check out the definitions at the Nicea-Constantinopolitan and Chalcedonian Councils.

Read the Fathers. I think you will find clearly that the Church has ALWAYS and everywhere taught that the Bible texts were and are the Word of God.

That's what I'm trying to do, and failing miserably at that. Been reading the councils... which open with describing Jesus as the Word of God, and that's the only place that they do so. The word Scripture has different roots of course--I'm still trying to learn more about that...

Timothy

[PaladinValer]

Scripture means the Holy Canon.

Logos means the Holy Word. :bow: