Limited atonement?

[pro_odeh]

I have looked into calvinism lately, but I still have some problems making it fit with what the Bible teaches, that God is just, all good and so on. So I was wondering what in the Bible supports this idea?
And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?

God bless!!

[Jon_]

Well, since the topic of this thread is limited atonement, I won't address the issue of Calvinism portraying God as unjust, but I will mention that it only appears to be that way from a human perspective. A few simple examples are all that is necessary to show that Calvinism is actually the only just theology. However, I disgress, you were talking about the atonement.

The third point of the five-point acrostic TULIP is Limited Atonement. Of all the points of Calvinism this is the most hotly disputed, although I have never understood why. Limited atonement, or particular redemption, is the most obvious of all the points, and all orthodox Christian believe in the limited atonement of Christ's death. I'll show you how.

Ask your typical Protestant who Christ died for and he or she will most likely reply, "everyone." Fair enough. We then ask a follow-up question, "What was the effect of Christ's death?" Here there might be a couple different answers, such as, "He died so that anyone who believes could be saved," or, "He died to save the world." Now, since the entire world will not be saved, we can immediately discard the latter argument, which leaves us with an obviously limited atonement: "Christ died so that anyone who believes could be saved." This is the orthodox view of the atonement for all Christians. No one believes that Jesus's death on the cross atones for the sins of the unrepentant. If that were true, his sacrifice would be atoning for the sins of the unjust, the unrighteous. That would make God unrighteous because he would be accepting unjustified sinners into heaven. The Word is clear that we are justified by grace through faith. If a man has not faith, he has not grace. It is therefore impossible for God to justify a man without faith, which means that Jesus's sacrifice does not atone for his sins.

Now, there is a second side to the battle. Many have cleverly tried to avoid this obviously logical pitfall and argue that Christ's atonement was part of a "universal design" for the atonement, but that only those who believe will be saved, of course. However, this violates the laws of cause and effect. To say that God intended for all men to be justified by Christ's sacrifice, but that some aren't, is to say that God is not sovereign. That is to say that there is something that God cannot do: atone for the sins of everyone. If God purposes to do something, it will be done. "For he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest Thou?" (Dan. 4:35 KJV). God's will cannot be frustrated. If I decide to get up and get a drink of water and God decides that I should drink iced tea instead, well, then I'm going to be drinking iced tea. There are no exceptions to this.

Furthermore, God foreknows those who are his. God knows his elect. He knew them before he even created the world. For him to design Christ's sacrifice for all men knowing that only the elect will believe makes absolutely no sense. That would be unjust. It would not be a genuine offer. He would essentially be teasing people with the gift of salvation. All you have to do is believe in Christ and you will be atoned--but since he already knows that they won't believe, the offer has no meaning at all. It would be like offering someone a million dollars if they killed themselves. What in the world is the point of an offer like that? Even if they did kill themselves, they would neither be dead to redeem it, nor be alive to enjoy it. Such is the same as an offer of atonement to those who will never believe.

So you see the solidarity of the Limited Atonement doctrine stands firmly upon the rock. Knowing so plainly and honestly that the nature of the atonement is inherently limited, we can better understand the Scriptures that seem to contradict this by studying their immediate context and their biblical context.

I'll discuss two of the most commonly cited "proof texts" against Limited Atonement to set your mind at ease. They are 1 John 2:2, and the one you have quoted, 1 Tim. 2:4.

When we confer in 1 John 2:2 we need to consider other verses that clarify the point made. I was doing some recent study and came across a couple of verses that clarify the assertion of 2:2 very well.

John makes it clear in the third chapter of his first epistle that he is speaking of the elect of the whole world.
(1 John 3:5 KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Jesus came to take away our sins. That is, believers:
(1 John 3:6 KJV) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

What John is saying is that to whoever sin is imputed, he has not been atoned, but those that have been atoned, to them sin is not imputed, for they are justified through faith. Moreover, this is precisely the purpose for which Matthew attributed his birth in his account of the Gospel, viz. that Christ came to atone for the sins of those who have faith (his people):
(Matt. 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Additionally, Paul conveys the context of the passage in a parallel statement in Romans:
(Rom. 2:11-12) For there is no respect of persons with God. 12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

And then he continues:
(Rom. 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Paul here says that the propitiation comes through faith, not universally. Moving ahead a couple of verses:
(Rom. 3:29 KJV) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:

Here he sets the context of the promise: being to all people, Jew and Gentile. The promise of propitiation through faith is made without respect concerning persons (Rom. 2:11), but is made according to God's good and pleasing will (Eph. 1:11).

The idea of a universal atonement that is applicable to those who have faith is logically indefensible. It is a cause without an effect. (It follows the same argument used by James against dead faith in the second chapter of his epistle.) A cause without an effect is meaningless, useless, and non-existent. There is no such thing as a cause without an effect.

1 Tim. 2:4 is explained much more easily. Let's have a look at the KJV of the verse:
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
This is an accurate translation, however, the imprecision of the Greek to English translation makes it appear that Paul is saying God desires that every one be saved. Of course, this is not possible, because if God truly desired that all would be saved, then all would. Instead, let's have a look at a much clearer, much more literal rendering of the Greek. I'll cite the Analytical-Literal Translation:
who desires all people [or, peoples] to be saved and to come to a full [or, true] knowledge of the truth.
The Greek word being translated "men," or "people," or "peoples" is anthropos. This word means many things. Here is the Thayer definition:


ἄνθρωπος

anthrōpos

Thayer Definition:

1) a human being, whether male or female

1a) generically, to include all human individuals

1b) to distinguish man from beings of a different order

1b1) of animals and plants

1b2) of from God and Christ

1b3) of the angels

1c) with the added notion of weakness, by which man is led into a mistake or prompted to sin

1d) with the adjunct notion of contempt or disdainful pity

1e) with reference to two fold nature of man, body and soul

1f) with reference to the two fold nature of man, the corrupt and the truly Christian man, conformed to the nature of God

1g) with reference to sex, a male

2) indefinitely, someone, a man, one

3) in the plural, people

4) joined with other words, merchantman

Part of Speech: noun masculine

What we see, rather clearly, is that "men" or "people" here refers not to all men individually, but to all peoples, that is, all kinds of people: both Jew and Gentile. This is the most common use of anthropos in the New Testament. It is a generic term used to refer to humanity. And, of course, this is very much true of God's grace toward all "kinds" of men. Again, this is much the same "problem" that we saw in 1 John 2:2 that was explained by Rom. 3:29. Paul is saying that God desires all peoples of the world, regardless of race, background, gender, or otherwise to be saved. His call is not limited to the Jews, but extends to the Gentiles, whereunto Paul was ordained a preacher and apostle (1 Tim. 2:7).

I hope that aids you in your understanding.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

Also, to help with your struggle to find Scriptures affirming limited atonement, have a look at these. Be sure to keep in mind that Scriptures which refer to a limited election necessarily imply a limited atonement.
(Ex. 33:19 KJV) And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

(Deut. 14:2 KJV) For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

(Ps. 65:4 KJV) Blessed is the man whom thou choosest, and causest to approach unto thee, that he may dwell in thy courts: we shall be satisfied with the goodness of thy house, even of thy holy temple.

(Jer. 24:7 KJV) And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

(Jer. 32:40 KJV) And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

(Ezek. 11:19 KJV) And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

(Matt. 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

(Matt. 7:21 KJV) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

(Phil. 2:13 KJV) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

(Eph. 2:8 KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

(1 John 3:5-9 KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7) Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

(Heb. 9:15 KJV) And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

(Heb. 9:28 KJV) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

(Heb. 10:14-18 KJV) For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15) Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16) This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17) And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18) Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

(Titus 2:14 KJV) Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

(John 10:14-15 KJV) I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15) As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

(John 10:26-28 KJV) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

(Acts 20:28 KJV) Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

(1 Cor. 6:19-20 KJV) What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20) For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

(Eph. 5:25 KJV) Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

(John 17:9-10 KJV) I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10) And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Bulldog]

Hello,


And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?



who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

A few points:

The Greek word for all (pas) can mean "all in the sense of all individually, as in the statement "all the pople in the world were created by God", or it can mean "all" as in all types, as in the statement "all types of cheese are good." Which one of these it is is determined by the context.
The context is speaking of all types of men.
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, (1 Timothy 2:1-3)
What is a king or leader? A type of man. At the time, "kings" and those "in high positions" were persecuting Christians, and Paul is merely exhorting them to pray for all types of men - persecuting government leaders included.
Look at verse 5:
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
Christ does not mediate between God and each invidual person, because all people do not know Christ. So it cannot be refering to all individuals here.

[CoffeeSwirls]

Much like Unconditional Election, this is a doctrine that makes many people uncomfortable. I’ll admit, I have struggled with this one petal of the TULIP more than any of the others, including the election that was not taught to me as a child. The thing about limited atonement that I disagreed with wasn’t so much the fact that the death of Christ doesn’t save everyone, it was the matter of Christ dying for nobody other than those who were chosen.

That just seemed to limit His sacrifice to me somehow. I mean, Jesus (who is fully God and fully man) was crucified on a tree and was forsaken by His Father to die a death that was more excruciating than anything anyone could ever face. Sure, there have been countless other crucifixions in the history of the world, but none of the others involved the laying of sin upon a man to this degree. To say that this degree of suffering by a man as infinitely perfect as Jesus was intended only for those who were called seemed just inexcusable to me!

I have had the facts of this matter explained to me several times, and I believe I now have a handle on it. Or at least a fingertip grasp. Perhaps my inexpert description will help someone else who is unsure how to grasp this concept and they can reword it in such a way that others will be more willing to accept it earlier in their walks with the Lord.

Let us begin this search first in the scriptures, as it should be. Any italics you see in this section of scripture will denote the emphasis that I have added to illustrate this point.

John 1:12 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=John+1%3A12) But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name. Did you see what I saw? The right to become children of God belongs to those who receive Him and believe in His name. This right doesn’t go out to everybody.
Hebrews 5:9 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Hebrews+5%3A9) And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him

Matthew 18:3 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Matthew+18%3A3) Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 8:28-30 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Romans+8%3A28-30) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

John 3:16 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=John+3%3A16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

This sacrifice was not intended for everybody. It is meant to save those who meet the requirements of faith and repentance. It is designed for those who obey His commands. It is for those who come to Him as children, completely reliant on His saving grace for their every need. It is for those he predestined. It is not for everybody. Sadly, some people who say that they’re glad this works for us, but is not for them may be right on the money. That’s not to say that we should ignore them and never share the gospel, for each one of us was dead in our sins at one time, and carried the attitude that conversion wasn’t for us. Each one of us who have been granted repentance and faith had someone who didn’t give up on us. Each one of us has a story of the time that it really hit home and they felt the call to truly believe. Let us not ever give up on anyone, whether they be a friend or foe. If giving up on others was an option in the Christian life, who knows where I would be now? Most likely in jail or worse. But that’s another story related to the miracle of my conversion. I will share it with you one day.

I have provided some passages that show that there are requirements to achieve the fullness of God’s grace. Whether you believe in the same doctrines as I, you cannot read an accurate translation of the Bible and not be able to see that salvation is not offered to everyone without some requirements. But what has this to do with limited atonement?

If you’ll recall, I began this article by discussing my distaste for the sacrifice of God being reduced to the possible salvation of a few. Consider this, though. If the crucifixion and resurrection were accomplished for every person in the world without exception, and if some people do die in their sins to be judged by their works compared to God’s expectations, wouldn’t this mean that the sacrifice of the Son of God had failed this person somehow? If Christ died for this person’s sins and yet they spent an eternity apart from Him, was it all for naught?

In light of this scenario, doesn’t it make sense that the limited atonement that I have come to believe in glorifies God more than the failures that would have resulted had Jesus been crucified for those who would be damned anyway? The chief end of man is to glorify God by worshiping Him forever. I glorify God by believing that His saving grace is enough for those He has chosen. This is more glorious than to believe that His death on the cross resulted in a world where a majority of the “opportunities” given Him turned into utter failures.

John 6:39 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=John+6%3A39) This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.Related posts from this and other blogs:
John Owen’s Defence of Particular Redemption (http://www.theirvins.com/index.php?p=32)
L - Limited Atonement (http://jollyblogger.typepad.com/jollyblogger/2004/11/l_limited_atone.html)

[5solas]

have a look here, these are probably the best resources you can get:


http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/definiteatonement.html

[Elect]

I have looked into calvinism lately, but I still have some problems making it fit with what the Bible teaches, that God is just, all good and so on. So I was wondering what in the Bible supports this idea?
And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?

God bless!!
Limited Atonement was the hardest for me to except. I had no trouble excepting the other four points of the Doctrines of Grace, when I started searching the Scriptures. so I decided to believe just four points and what did it matter anyway that the Atonement was limited to just the elect or not. I believed this for about a week and then I realized that this would be inconsistent Theology. This is why in some of my post I harp on being consistent in one's Theology.

If we have been bought with a price then we do not belong to ourselves but belong to the one who bought us which is God. Does God loose what He has bought? Have all the souls in Hell been bought by God and He lost them? If so, then God wouldn't be God because He would have failed to do what He purposed and desired but there are plenty of Scriptures that state that God does all that He desires and that no one can stay His hand.

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Isaiah 46:9-11)

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)

"For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:17-24)

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:11)

If these verses are true then God will save all that He purposed to save.

If the atonement was limited to some then there would be Scriptures that would say so. Right?

One thing that may help is to ask some questions about the Atonement and let the Scriptures answer the questions. I have done this and this is what I came up with. I hope this helps.

Q. For what reason did Jesus die?

A."He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken." (Isaiah 53:8)



Q. For whom did Jesus die for?

A. "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep." (John 10:11)

Q. What did Jesus purches with His blood?

A. "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood." (Acts 20:28)



Q.In Revelation 3:20, Jesus said "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." So who are the ones that will hear His voice?

A."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27)



Q. To whom will Jesus give eternal life too?

A."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28)



Q.Who will be saved from their sins?

A."And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." (Matthew 1:21)



Q.Can a person who is not a sheep believe the Gospel?

A."But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." (John 10:26)



Q.Can a person come to Jesus on his own free will alone from God?

A."And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:65)



Q.Who teaches men that Jesus is the Christ?

A."When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." (Mattew 16:13-17)



Q.Does everyone that is taught of the Father come to Jesus?

A."It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45)



Q.Does God purposely reveal truth to some and with hold truth from others?

A."And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given." (Matthew 13:10-11)



Q.Why do believers love God?

A."We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)



Q. When did God first love us?

A." According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:" (Ephesians 1:4)



Q.Why has God chosen some and by past others?

A."According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:4-6)



Q.By what authority does God do this?

A."What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:14-24)



Q.The words "we" and "us" used in the New Testament refer to all of mankind or just believers?

A. The Scriptures were written by believers to believers. A distinction is made between believers and the rest of the world. The Word declares that we are not of the world, so in most, if not all, the words "we" and "us" refer to the elect of God and not to all of mankind.

"We love him, because he first loved us." (1 John 4:19)

[Rolf Ernst]

In John's gospel, chapter seventeen, Jesus is entering into His work as the great high priest. As a faithful high priest it is important that He offer His high priestly prayer in a fashion that is altogether pleasing to the Father; that He pray according to the will of God. Therefore He is careful to say to the Father in His prayer, "I pray not for the world, but for those you have given me."

carefully note that limitation! He is limiting His prayer to only those given to Him

This is very important. If Jesus had prayed without restriction that everyone be with Him where He was, if He had offered up His prayer for those concerning whom the Father would never answer the petitions He requested in the affirmative, His high priestly prayer would have been contrary to the Father's ultimate will. Therefore it would be fatally flawed. Likewise, if Jesus had offered up Himself for those who would never believe on Him, it would have resulted in an offering that was not wholly pleasing to the Father, and therefore it would have been an offering never acceptable to the Father because the Father would never fulfill its intent, neither would the Holy Spirit have ever quickened all those for whom the offering was made. It would have been an offering that was fatally flawed in its intent. And it is not possible that as High Priest the Son of God would make an offering not fully approved by both the Father and the Holy spirit. It is not possible that the Great High Priest make an ofering that was not fully received and therefore acted upon by the Father and the Spirit!!

[Jon_]

Our one hundred and fourty four and absolutely no more...^_^
That's hyper-Calvinism--unorthodox and inapplicable.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

And yet you believe it is Gods will that Only a few, and not all be saved?

It ain't hyper calvinism, it is Calvinist theology, through, and through, only us, the elected few, and all the rest can :cry: boo hoo hoo! ^_^

I once considered taking my Bible to a major publishing firm to have it edited to confrom to modern day denominational election theology but then I realized if I did that I would no longer have a large book full of Gods unchanging promises, I'd only have a little pamphlet with a few pages, of very small paragraphs about a do nothing, uncertain, prejudiced god......

BTW which major earthly denomination is this election theology most heavily promoted by?

Baptists?

Presby's?

Methodists?

Church Of Christ ? Ooooops I forgot they're not a denomination, they're a corporation! ^_^
Great. Another idiot troll who doesn't know the Bible from the hole in his head.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Scholar in training]

The third point of the five-point acrostic TULIP is Limited Atonement. Of all the points of Calvinism this is the most hotly disputed, although I have never understood why. Limited atonement, or particular redemption, is the most obvious of all the points, and all orthodox Christian believe in the limited atonement of Christ's death.
Is this statement intentionally misleading? You're not the type that equates Arminianism with "neotheism", are you?

[CoffeeSwirls]

Did Christ bear the sins of every person in all the world, past present and future? That is, is everybody atoned and propitiated for? If so, why isn't everybody going to Heaven? Why is there a place for God's eternal wrath against sin if everybody's sin has been covered equally? Is the promise of anyone's salvation assured if everybody's isn't? Did Jesus fail in His mission to save absolutely everybody?

Of course, the alternative is a responsive God who is just hoping we allow Him to be our instrument of our own salvation. Me? I prefer a God who has the sovereignty to act according to His wishes whether we have agreed to His plans beforehand.

I say this plainly and without embellishment because your name implies that you are willing to study the scriptures with an open mind and that you will accept whatever God has to say about Himself as well as His salvation that He offers to those His son came to save.

[Scholar in training]

Did Christ bear the sins of every person in all the world, past present and future?
Yes.

That is, is everybody atoned and propitiated for?
Atoned for, but not completed.

If so, why isn't everybody going to Heaven?
Because not everyone will take the check.

Is the promise of anyone's salvation assured if everybody's isn't?
I believe that apostacy is possible, even for the righteous.

I say this plainly and without embellishment because your name implies that you are willing to study the scriptures with an open mind and that you will accept whatever God has to say about Himself as well as His salvation that He offers to those His son came to save.
OK.

[CoffeeSwirls]

Just so you can understand where I'm coming from, I do say that God loves everyone in the world. That does not mean that He has the same amount of love for all. Oh my goodness, you're one year old! Sorry. I'm married and have a son. I love them both. I also love my neighbors. The love I have for my family is greater than the love I have for my neighbors. I will sacrifice myself to a farther degree for my family than I will for my neighbor. This does not imply that I have my neighbor. It just says that the love I have for my family is greater.

I say that Christ went to the cross for the sins of many, but not all. His life/death/resurrection is sufficient for all of the world, but was not applied to all of the world. Jesus came to this world for the purpose of bringing glory to the Father first and foremost, and He accomplished all that He was to do by the power of the Holy Spirit. All of the sins of those whose transgressions are forgiven were placed upon Him as He took the curse for us. Those who will remain on their sins will go to judgement day with a negative balance and will be rightfully cast into the lake of fire.

If Jesus died for someone who will burn forever anyway, did He really accomplish anything or did he only pave the way for us to accomplish our own salvation? That is the picture we are painted in most of today's churches. It is one that says that we all just want to be good enough or listen close enough to agree to enough facts so that we will sign a card, walk an aisle, raise a hand or what have you. Under this belief, a great deal of pressure is placed on the pastor, because if he doesn't save anyone (an impossibility for anyone but God) he has failed. The power of Christ is all that we have, though, and we honor Him by turning the attention to Him and not to the next strategy for drawing a human response.

We enter into salvation under God's terms or not at all. He hasn't left his checkbook for us to pay for the meal. He has already paid for the meal for those who were purchased since before the foundation of the world. Those He has elected to save are fools if we think our will is stronger than the will of the God of Heaven and Earth, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, the one who only needed to speak and light came when there was no light. His will is sovereign and we are not. I am not implying that you must believe in Calvinism to be saved. Calvin didn't die for anybody's sins. But he did teach a doctrine of grace, of the unearned favor from God to those He chose for His own pleasure.

Those He saves He preserves. And that is a good thing.
http://www.coffeeswirls.com/images/bible.gif 2 Timothy 2:10-13 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=2+Timothy+2%3A10-13)
Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. The saying is trustworthy, for:

If we have died with him, we will also live with him;
if we endure, we will also reign with him;
if we deny him, he also will deny us;
if we are faithless, he remains faithful—

for he cannot deny himself.

[Jon_]

Is this statement intentionally misleading? You're not the type that equates Arminianism with "neotheism", are you?
Believing that Christ's death was universally atoning amounts to universalist heresy. If you acknowledge that Christ died for all, then you acknowledge that Christ atoned for all the sins of mankind. Because Christ's death is atoning, and all sins are atoned for, the logical consequence of the universal atonement view is universalism, which is heretical. Trying to qualify this with "atoning but not effective," then amounts to a denial of Christ's atonement, which is also heresy.

This is the primary reason why Arminianism was twice repudiated, and why I call it as it is: an heretical doctrine.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

Such a Kind Loving Sincere Christ Like Christian Expression!

You must allow me the priviledge of knowing the name of your denomination so that I too may be a part of it's elite illustrious Christ Like membership.

BTW exactly which hole in my head were you referring to? ^_^
Get lost, PenecostalEvangelist.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[CCWoody]

Atoned for, but not completed.

An incomplete salvation. Well, no time like the present to get to work completing it.

[JamesMichael]

Get lost, PenecostalEvangelist.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Oh My Such a sincere display of true Christ Like Love. Well maybe I should return in kind How Bout if you go for a long swim in the lake of fire.

I never did one thing to deserve your display of satanic hatred there jonny boy, you profess to be a Christian, well you sure do think you got God fooled don't you.

[Scholar in training]

Believing that Christ's death was universally atoning amounts to universalist heresy. If you acknowledge that Christ died for all, then you acknowledge that Christ atoned for all the sins of mankind.
Nope, because not everyone will take the free gift offered to them, for whatever reason: they think it is ridiculous, they would rather not change their behavior, etc. That's the simple explanation.

Because Christ's death is atoning, and all sins are atoned for, the logical consequence of the universal atonement view is universalism, which is heretical. Trying to qualify this with "atoning but not effective," then amounts to a denial of Christ's atonement, which is also heresy.
A denial of Christ's atonement? Your version of the atonement is that of a forced gift, a contradiction in terms.

This is the primary reason why Arminianism was twice repudiated, and why I call it as it is: an heretical doctrine.
As long as you understand that some people see Calvinism as heretical, to whatever extent it can be called that.

[Jon_]

Nope, because not everyone will take the free gift offered to them, for whatever reason: they think it is ridiculous, they would rather not change their behavior, etc. That's the simple explanation.

A denial of Christ's atonement? Your version of the atonement is that of a forced gift, a contradiction in terms.

As long as you understand that some people see Calvinism as heretical, to whatever extent it can be called that.
Christ's atonement is not a gift offered, it is an effectual act of redemption. It is not Christ's atonement that is offered through the Gospel, it is salvation through that atonement. It is faith, given by the grace of God; it is regeneration, irresistably worked by the Holy Spirit; and it is redemption, effectually ensured by the Son. These things are not a free gift offered to man to be accepted at his whim, but what God does for man because he is loving, merciful, and gracious. A gift need not be offered for it to be given. But again, I stress that salvation is not a gift in the sense that you are using the term.

Men may lay the accusation that Calvinism is heretical, but this only further increases their error as they add the sin of lying to their damning heresy.

This is not the proper forum to debate these issues, though. Might I suggest you start a thread in Soteriology if you are interested in a debate?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Godzchild]

Look it all sounds really good and everything but I have a hard time believing that a God who is no respecter of persons would save some and not others.

How does this doctrive fit in with the parable of the wedding feast? Many are called and few are chosen? Why were they not chosen? They were called alright but they were not chosen. Why? What didn't they do?

It seems to me that God is very much looking at what 'we' do. You say that wouldn't make him sovreign but I think it does. Being a God that can do what he pleases why can't he choose to elect those who he foreknew would accept him?

[CoffeeSwirls]

That takes grace out of the equation. Look up grace in the dictionary... any dictionary. It will say that grace is undeserved merit. If God were to look through time and see who chose Him, then responded by choosing that person, the choice would be based on our actions. Hence, it would be deserved.

God does require that we do things. He requires that we love Him with all of our heart and that we obey His commandments perfectly. He requires many more things that we just cannot do. We have all failed to meet His righteous standard. This realization scared the living daylights out of me until I realized that the only place I could turn was to Christ, who lived the sinless life in my place, died in my place, and then led the way for us all as He rose again.

The verses that place the bar higher than we can jump are there to show that we cannot do this without God. If they just said to "ask Jesus into your heart" and that was it, it wouldn't be amazing and it wouldn't be grace. The gospel is not that God looked across time and said "Thy will be done" to us. That concept is a blasphemy that tries to affirm justification even as it denies sanctification.

Remember that many will say on the last day, "Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name and didn't we this and didn't we that?" (my own paraphrase) In response, they will be sent away. Why is this? Is it because these people tried to earn the favor of God rather than look to His grace? The power behind the Christian is not the good works, but the Father who is glorified by them.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

[Godzchild]

I understand that it's not based on our works but Jesus did mention a work and that was 'belief'. I believe that's the only thing that merits grace is if we 'believe' in whom he sent. Jesus and him crucified.

Why can't God look ahead and see who were going to believe and who was not? I believe in this election thing to a certain extent, I believe I was elected and that is why he keeps me...however, it was all based on whether I was going to heed the call or not. If not then he would never have chosen me, if so then he does. All foreseen.

Again, I point towards the parable of the wedding feast where many were called but only few chosen based on what they did. Which was? Getting dressed for the wedding feast. Well in my mind, putting on Christ as the spotless garment is done at belief...and that's the only work. If I did not put on this believe (then had the spotless garment of christ put on me) then I would never have been chosen. But you say it's not based on anything we do? But that's not what Jesus says though...belief is the only thing.

[Godzchild]

And for the record, I'm not arguing I'm just trying to understand. I really WANT to believe you...I really do. And I do believe it to a certain extent but then it all goes pear shaped and you lose me at the point where God is suddenly a respecter of persons.

[CoffeeSwirls]

Fair enough. Belief is our work. If you can agree that all of our work is based on the work of Christ, can we say that we are enabled to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that we may be saved only if He empowers us to do so? There was a time when you didn't believe. Then you began to accept the truth of the Bible. You believed in a set of facts. This does not mean that you were saved, though. Even the devil believes in the facts. Does believe mean that you are willing to drop everything else and rely solely on Christ for your salvation, even if your very belief (active belief, faith that works) is a gift from God?

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

[Jon_]

And for the record, I'm not arguing I'm just trying to understand. I really WANT to believe you...I really do. And I do believe it to a certain extent but then it all goes pear shaped and you lose me at the point where God is suddenly a respecter of persons.
Actually, it's just the opposite, sister. God is no respecter of persons. What respect does the Most High have for his creatures? We are nothing but worms (Job 25:6) and unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). God does not respect us at all, not should he! But he does love us. And he loves us so much that he sent his Son Jesus Christ to die, not that salvation should be possible, but that salvation should be ensured for those whom he was chosen.

Now that's true love.

The Arminian god threw his son in the water to drown, so that we might climb out of the pool on his back. The Calvinist God sent his Son to jump in and really save us. The amazing thing is that his Son died in the process of saving us. His death didn't make it possible for us to be saved. He died in saving us and saved us in dying. What an amazing, loving, gracious, and merciful God we serve.

(Of course, this analogy is not perfect, but I think it pretty well illustrates God's incredible love.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[JamesMichael]

Actually, it's just the opposite, sister. God is no respecter of persons. What respect does the Most High have for his creatures? We are nothing but worms (Job 25:6) and unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). God does not respect us at all, not should he! But he does love us. And he loves us so much that he sent his Son Jesus Christ to die, not that salvation should be possible, but that salvation should be ensured for those whom he was chosen.

Now that's true love.

The Arminian god threw his son in the water to drown, so that we might climb out of the pool on his back. The Calvinist God sent his Son to jump in and really save us. The amazing thing is that his Son died in the process of saving us. His death didn't make it possible for us to be saved. He died in saving us and saved us in dying. What an amazing, loving, gracious, and merciful God we serve.

(Of course, this analogy is not perfect, but I think it pretty well illustrates God's incredible love.)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

How does one come to the true knowledge, if it is possible at all, that God has truly chosen them alone to be redeemed?

There must be some Biblical manner in which one comes to that saving knowledege.

[Godzchild]

Fair enough. Belief is our work. If you can agree that all of our work is based on the work of Christ, can we say that we are enabled to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ that we may be saved only if He empowers us to do so? There was a time when you didn't believe. Then you began to accept the truth of the Bible. You believed in a set of facts. This does not mean that you were saved, though. Even the devil believes in the facts. Does believe mean that you are willing to drop everything else and rely solely on Christ for your salvation, even if your very belief (active belief, faith that works) is a gift from God?


I understand that God you believe that God empowers us to believe but we can still decide not to though. I chose to believe...that was my choice. And for the record my belief is not based on facts, it's based on something deep inside. I don't know. The 'facts' that I was taught by men were false all my life but that's not why I believe....I believe because I chose too and I know Jesus now.

Actually, it's just the opposite, sister. God is no respecter of persons.

I know that! But I feel that your doctrine painst him into someone who is.

What respect does the Most High have for his creatures? We are nothing but worms (Job 25:6) and unprofitable servants (Luke 17:10). God does not respect us at all, not should he! But he does love us. And he loves us so much that he sent his Son Jesus Christ to die, not that salvation should be possible, but that salvation should be ensured for those whom he was chosen.

But again, I can't get passed the REASON we were chosen. I know I was chosen but I believe it was based on the fact that God forsaw my belief in his Son.

The Arminian god threw his son in the water to drown, so that we might climb out of the pool on his back. The Calvinist God sent his Son to jump in and really save us. The amazing thing is that his Son died in the process of saving us. His death didn't make it possible for us to be saved. He died in saving us and saved us in dying. What an amazing, loving, gracious, and merciful God we serve.

(Of course, this analogy is not perfect, but I think it pretty well illustrates God's incredible love.)

I have no doubt in God's love. I just doubt that this loving God can pick and choose who he wants despite whether or not we were going to believe in the one he sent or not.

[Jon_]

I know that! But I feel that your doctrine painst him into someone who is.
Okay, why do you think this is so? I am having trouble understanding how you came to that conclusion.

But again, I can't get passed the REASON we were chosen. I know I was chosen but I believe it was based on the fact that God forsaw my belief in his Son.
Calvinism teaches that we are chosen according to divine fiat. That means that God has chosen us because he wanted to, not because of anything we did. Election is God's prerogative and he choses those that he wants to for no other reason than he is sovereign and he can choose. The Scriptures do not reveal how or why God choses those he choses. It is not on the basis of foreseen faith because that is impossible. The doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that no man has faith except that which God gives him. Therefore, election (God's choice) must precede faith.

I have no doubt in God's love. I just doubt that this loving God can pick and choose who he wants despite whether or not we were going to believe in the one he sent or not.
That's just the thing, though. God choses those that he will give faith to. That is what it means to be chosen by God. It means that he has given you faith in his Son Jesus Christ. The elect are those that God has chosen to believe and all those that he chooses to believe will believe. So God doesn't just randomly pick people hoping they will have faith. Nor does he pick those that he foresees will have faith (because there is no faith to foresee because no men naturally have faith). Instead, God picks those that will have faith.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Jon_]

How does one come to the true knowledge, if it is possible at all, that God has truly chosen them alone to be redeemed?

There must be some Biblical manner in which one comes to that saving knowledege.
Through the faithful and dutiful study of the Scripture and the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

The Scripture itself is an objective revelation. What is true in the Scriptures is true for everyone. Now, whether or not men accept that is another story. That comes down to subjective revelation, which is the work of the Holy Spirit in the man affirming the objective truth of the Bible. In order for one to believe what the Bible says is true, he must have the subjective revelation of the Holy Spirit. In order for the Holy Spirit to subjectively reveal this truth, the man must be studying the objective revelation.

That is why I exort you to faithfully study the Scriptures as often as possible. And pray that the Lord will open your eyes and reveal his truth to you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[JamesMichael]

Through the faithful and dutiful study of the Scripture and the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

The Scripture itself is an objective revelation. What is true in the Scriptures is true for everyone. Now, whether or not men accept that is another story. That comes down to subjective revelation, which is the work of the Holy Spirit in the man affirming the objective truth of the Bible. In order for one to believe what the Bible says is true, he must have the subjective revelation of the Holy Spirit. In order for the Holy Spirit to subjectively reveal this truth, the man must be studying the objective revelation.

That is why I exort you to faithfully study the Scriptures as often as possible. And pray that the Lord will open your eyes and reveal his truth to you.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

You still haven't given sound Biblical evidence to show exactly How one becomes a Christian.

What Must the unsaved (Non-Elect) do, to become saved (elect)?

What specific Biblical standard is required, according to your beliefs, to be saved, or to be found among the number known as Gods elect?

I mean absolutely no offense in asking those questions, I just do not understand how you know that you know that you are truly saved.

To be honest, I don't believe I would want to gamble on what I feel are such obviously uncertain odds when it comes to where I will eventually spend eternity, one place is way too hot for taking that kind of a foolish chance.

[Godzchild]

Okay, why do you think this is so? I am having trouble understanding how you came to that conclusion.

To be honest, I don't actually know :scratch:


Calvinism teaches that we are chosen according to divine fiat. That means that God has chosen us because he wanted to, not because of anything we did. Election is God's prerogative and he choses those that he wants to for no other reason than he is sovereign and he can choose. The Scriptures do not reveal how or why God choses those he choses. It is not on the basis of foreseen faith because that is impossible. The doctrine of Total Depravity teaches that no man has faith except that which God gives him. Therefore, election (God's choice) must precede faith.

Can't you choose to not be faithful? Sounds to me like, what you're saying is the God leads the horse to the water then makes him drink it too. What if the horse doesn't want to drink?


That's just the thing, though. God choses those that he will give faith to. That is what it means to be chosen by God. It means that he has given you faith in his Son Jesus Christ. The elect are those that God has chosen to believe and all those that he chooses to believe will believe. So God doesn't just randomly pick people hoping they will have faith. Nor does he pick those that he foresees will have faith (because there is no faith to foresee because no men naturally have faith). Instead, God picks those that will have faith.

Then why would one need to be told to 'believe' in Jesus, when it's something that they will naturally do? Why are many called but few chosen? Why are they called and why are not then chosen? I'm referring back to the wedding feast again now ;)

[/QUOTE]

[CoffeeSwirls]

How does the unsaved become saved? http://www.coffeeswirls.com/images/bible.gif Mark 10:26-27 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Mark+10%3A26-27)
And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

God doesn't change His list of who is elect and who is not. One who is not elect will remain in the natural fallen state and have no desire to approach God for their salvation. God is the one who places this desire into the hearts of those He has chosen. Ultimately, we all end up in the place we have chosen! C.S. Lewis went so far as to say that we all end up in the place that we want to be at, and that the reprobate would not want to be in Heaven even if offered a glimpse of it. What's the Biblical standard?
http://www.coffeeswirls.com/images/bible.gif Matthew 13:44 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Matthew+13%3A44)
The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.

The Kingdom of heaven is the promise of a life with Christ. It is a life that is eternal. It is glorious! There is no comparison to those things we trusted for our joy. They are worthless. The treasure is one that will never cease to amaze and delight us, however. I must ask you this, though. Have you seen this treasure? Have you inspected it and seen that the value of the treasure outweighs those sinful things that you have clung to so desperately? Have you seen it? Is it worth your while to abandon the world that you may claim this treasure?

But first, have you seen the treasure?


And who ever said that God could lead us to water but not make us drink?
http://www.coffeeswirls.com/images/bible.gif Luke 22:41-42 (http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?go=Go&q=Mark+10%3A26-27)
And he withdrew from them about a stone's throw, and knelt down and prayed, saying, “Father, if you are willing, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, not my will, but yours, be done.”
If the will of the Father was good enough for Christ, is it also good enough for you?

[Jon_]

To be honest, I don't actually know :scratch:
Oh. Um, would it be reasonable for me to ask you to trust me in saying that it does not? :)

Can't you choose to not be faithful? Sounds to me like, what you're saying is the God leads the horse to the water then makes him drink it too. What if the horse doesn't want to drink?
God makes them want to drink (as the deer panteth for the water, so our soul longeth after him).

Then why would one need to be told to 'believe' in Jesus, when it's something that they will naturally do? Why are many called but few chosen? Why are they called and why are not then chosen? I'm referring back to the wedding feast again now ;)
There is a two part explanation for this.

In the first, God commands that all men everywhere repent on the believe in Jesus Christ. God is a jealous God and he has made Jesus the sole Savior for all of mankind. He does not want anyone attempting to achieve salvation by any other means but his Son. He requires that we seek him out because he has created us to worship him. That is our purpose. Those who do not believe in his Son refuse to do so. They live in sin. The answer to the second part is that we do not know why God does not choose all that are called except that it is his sovereign will.

This is the most difficult point of Calvinism for people to accept. I refuse to try to hide it from you or deceive you of its logical conclusion. The simple fact is that God chooses both those that will be saved by faith in Christ and those that will be damned through disbelief. We call this "double predestination." Because God is a sovereign God and is in control of all things, he is in control of the destiny of those that go to heaven and those that go to hell. He is even glorified by their destruction.
(Prov. 16:4 AV) The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

(Rev. 16:9 AV) And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. (emphasis added)
Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[BBAS 64]

Look it all sounds really good and everything but I have a hard time believing that a God who is no respecter of persons would save some and not others.

How does this doctrive fit in with the parable of the wedding feast? Many are called and few are chosen? Why were they not chosen? They were called alright but they were not chosen. Why? What didn't they do?

It seems to me that God is very much looking at what 'we' do. You say that wouldn't make him sovreign but I think it does. Being a God that can do what he pleases why can't he choose to elect those who he foreknew would accept him?

Good Day, Godzchild

The wedding feast is a classic historical parable that is clear in it's teaching. The called are all the people of the kingdom, the chosen are the ones that the wedding garment were provided by the hand of the king. The chosen did nothing, the king provided the garments as to given hounor to the prince.

The "unchoosen" are not given garments from the hand of the king.

Peace to u,

Bill

[Scholar in training]

Christ's atonement is not a gift offered, it is an effectual act of redemption. It is not Christ's atonement that is offered through the Gospel, it is salvation through that atonement.
I will admit that I misspoke, in some manner, by saying that. You and I, however, undoubtedly have different definitions for "atonement" and "salvation".

Men may lay the accusation that Calvinism is heretical, but this only further increases their error as they add the sin of lying to their damning heresy.
Damning heresy? Do you mean that literally? :)

[Jon_]

I will admit that I misspoke, in some manner, by saying that. You and I, however, undoubtedly have different definitions for "atonement" and "salvation".
I can claim naught but the biblical definition.

Damning heresy? Do you mean that literally? :)
Damnable would be a better word.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Scholar in training]

I can claim naught but the biblical definition.
As defined by Augustine et al.

Damnable would be a better word.
As you like.

[Elect]

I will admit that I misspoke, in some manner, by saying that. You and I, however, undoubtedly have different definitions for "atonement" and "salvation".
Does the Atonement of Christ make man savable or does actually save those that it was intended for?

[Imblessed]

Does the Atonement of Christ make man savable or does actually save those that it was intended for?

exactly

I say the atonement actually saves those it was meant to save.



I just don't get what the big fuss is about limited atonement. Seriously folks, stop, step back and think logically for a minute. What did Christ die for? He died to make we who are saved holy and blameless. To ATONE for our sins....
Did he atone for the sins of those who are not saved? If he did, then believe me, ALL would be saved. But they are not. If God knows everything, and sees everything, then He certainly knows who's sins Christ died for, and it AIN'T the reprobate! Why should Christ have had to die for the people that God KNOWS is not going to accept it???????


Ok, this is what really gets me. Those who say that God is mean because he only saves a certain amount of people per Limited Atonement and Predestination. "How cruel is it that God made people with never the intention of ever saving them, knowing that they never have a chance." says the Arminian. Yet look at their view. God looks down time, sees who will call on Him, chooses them because he 'sees' that they will pick Him, AND YET! :eek: Still allows those who He SEES will never choose Him to live!!!

WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE????? :doh:

I just can't figure out what the big fuss is! :scratch:

[Godzchild]

Ok I'm back.

I've been trying to find a reason why God elects some and not others. I found it hard to believe that he would just not elect someone 'because he felt like it'.

Yesterday I had a chat to a calvanist on paltalk. He told me about the wheat and the tares - and reminded me about the tares being planted by the devil. The wheat belong to God - always have always will. The tares were planted by satan and belong to him. God chooses to elect the wheat simply because they belong to Him.

Would this be correct?

[seekingpurity047]

Ok I'm back.

I've been trying to find a reason why God elects some and not others. I found it hard to believe that he would just not elect someone 'because he felt like it'.

Yesterday I had a chat to a calvanist on paltalk. He told me about the wheat and the tares - and reminded me about the tares being planted by the devil. The wheat belong to God - always have always will. The tares were planted by satan and belong to him. God chooses to elect the wheat simply because they belong to Him.

Would this be correct?

God does everything for His own glory. Calvinism has everything to do with the sovereignty and the glory of God. God, therefore, chooses His elect for His glory.

Randy

[cygnusx1]

Ok I'm back.

I've been trying to find a reason why God elects some and not others. I found it hard to believe that he would just not elect someone 'because he felt like it'.

Yesterday I had a chat to a calvanist on paltalk. He told me about the wheat and the tares - and reminded me about the tares being planted by the devil. The wheat belong to God - always have always will. The tares were planted by satan and belong to him. God chooses to elect the wheat simply because they belong to Him.

Would this be correct?

it does make a lot of sense , if all things were equal , then there should be a field of wheat .......... or just a field of tares , but there just isn't.

Take yourself , how is it that you were blessed enough to be born at a time when the Gospel had reached you ..... how is it that you were not born in the Taliban countries ?

and the list is endless leading all the way up to Glory .

The answer is it so pleased God to make it happen that way.

[Scholar in training]

Yesterday I had a chat to a calvanist on paltalk. He told me about the wheat and the tares - and reminded me about the tares being planted by the devil. The wheat belong to God - always have always will. The tares were planted by satan and belong to him. God chooses to elect the wheat simply because they belong to Him.
Is this standard Calvinist doctrine?

[Godzchild]

it does make a lot of sense , if all things were equal , then there should be a field of wheat .......... or just a field of tares , but there just isn't.

Take yourself , how is it that you were blessed enough to be born at a time when the Gospel had reached you ..... how is it that you were not born in the Taliban countries ?

and the list is endless leading all the way up to Glory .

The answer is it so pleased God to make it happen that way.

But the Devil sowed tares amongst the wheat though.

Is this standard Calvinist doctrine?

I have no idea, that's why I was asking :)

[SoaringEagle]

Jesus only died for the elect, yet the elect is according to the foreknowlegde of God. Jesus is the Door for all to become sheep (born again) so the atonement is for all those that come to Christ. He laid down His life for the sheep. The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men... Salvation is made possible for all, but all don't yeild to the Spirit's conviction. Just like the people who stoned Stephen, He said you "resist" the Holy Spirit. People have the ability to resist or recieve. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

[SoaringEagle]

If double predestination is true, then all men weren't created equal.

[Jon_]

Jesus only died for the elect, yet the elect is according to the foreknowlegde of God. Jesus is the Door for all to become sheep (born again) so the atonement is for all those that come to Christ. He laid down His life for the sheep. The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men... Salvation is made possible for all, but all don't yeild to the Spirit's conviction. Just like the people who stoned Stephen, He said you "resist" the Holy Spirit. People have the ability to resist or recieve. God commands all men everywhere to repent.
This is Arminian error. If you would like to debate the doctrines of grace, please start a new thread where you might be corrected.

If double predestination is true, then all men weren't created equal.
This does not follow. Again, please start a new thread if your intent is to question Calvinism. This one is specifically about the atonement.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[seekingpurity047]

Jesus only died for the elect, yet the elect is according to the foreknowlegde of God. Jesus is the Door for all to become sheep (born again) so the atonement is for all those that come to Christ. He laid down His life for the sheep. The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men... Salvation is made possible for all, but all don't yeild to the Spirit's conviction. Just like the people who stoned Stephen, He said you "resist" the Holy Spirit. People have the ability to resist or recieve. God commands all men everywhere to repent.

SoaringEagle, just ask yourself this question. What did Jesus die for? Did He die to actually save people, or did He die to make people SAVEABLE? Clearly, you believe in the latter.

If anything, arminians are limiting Christ's atonement even more than calvinists in the sense that Christ doesn't actually save anyone, but it is man who saves himself by choosing to come to faith in Christ by his own will, changing his own heart to be humble toward Christ... And, right, we all know this is biblical (notice the sarcasm). Man does NOT save himself, but Christ saves. Christ doesn't simply make people saveable, but He saves His people.

Randy

[EnglishPuritan]

I have looked into calvinism lately, but I still have some problems making it fit with what the Bible teaches, that God is just, all good and so on. So I was wondering what in the Bible supports this idea?
And does not verses like 1 Timothy 2:4 "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. " contradict it?

God bless!!

Here Paul means that all types of men God wills to be saved...tinckers, tailors, soldiers, sailors, rich men, poor men, beggar me and theives.

[JJB]

Here Paul means that all types of men God wills to be saved...tinckers, tailors, soldiers, sailors, rich men, poor men, beggar me and theives.

Could it also be referring to salvation is available for Jews and Gentiles?

[EnglishPuritan]

Could it also be referring to salvation is available for Jews and Gentiles?

It could be possible but in the context of kings and all in authority I would side with that it refers to social status types rather than ethnic types although both would do justice to the text but I believe the former more so. :)

[GLJCA]

You know what I have noticed in this discussion? I noticed that the majority of the argument against Limited Atonement has been taken from the New Testament (NT). When I was studying Limited Atonement I felt that I could prove it wrong using the NT, but when I looked at the OT I saw Limited Atonement clearly.



God chose Abram (Abraham) to be the father of God’s chosen people. God said that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. He said that He (God) would be their God and they would be His people. Did anyone else have that privilege? NO! God gave the children of Israel the privilege of sacrificing animals, which is a shadow of the one true sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Did the heathen nations have that privilege? NO! It was Israel’s privilege and Israel’s alone. If someone wanted to be included in that privilege they had to become an Israelite by circumcision. God limited who the recipients of that privilege would be, and it wasn’t ALL THE WORLD. Now my question is, Has God changed? I don’t think so! In fact I see no change at all from the blessings in the OT. They are reserved by God for His people, not ALL the world.



In the NT, the Church of Jesus Christ is God’s chosen people (1Pt. 2:9), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), the holy nation that is bringing forth the fruits that God requires. (Matt 21:43). Today the Church is the recipients of God’s blessings, which includes the privilege of having our sins forgiven. Can someone have their sins forgiven and not be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ? Who was Jesus talking to when he said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me? He was talking to His disciples, the Church. Is ALL THE WORLD invited to partake of the Lord’s Supper? If ALL THE WORLD is not invited to partake of the Lord’s Supper, which is a symbol or picture of the atonement of Jesus Christ then how can we believe that the atonement itself is offered to ALL THE WORLD?



It just doesn’t make sense to think that way.

[GLJCA]

Someone made this statement, The Grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men... Salvation is made possible for all, but all don't yield to the Spirit's conviction. Could you please explain what is meant by this statement? Let me explain why I am asking.



This scripture has been used for years by Arminians to combat the doctrine of Limited Atonement but is that what it is really saying? What is the grace of God that brings salvation, and also is salvation made possible for all? I lived in the mountains of Mexico for 13 years and there were many that lived and died, in the village where I lived, never hearing the gospel, or knowing the salvation of the Lord until the first missionary arrived in 1980. Can it be said that salvation was made possible for those that died without ever hearing the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ, in all the years before the missionaries got there? According to New Tribes Mission, and Wycliffe Bible Translators there are millions of tribal people that have never heard the gospel one time. I can attest to that fact because I have lived with some that had never heard the gospel.



Even while Paul penned those words to Titus (2:11) there were people living on other continents that knew nothing of Jesus Christ and wouldn’t hear about Him for many years. So how could Paul be saying that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to those who had not heard the gospel? Can we really say that salvation was made possible for those that died in the hundred years before the gospel got to them? Will the Arminians say that God is unjust for sending missionaries to some and not to others?



God ordained that the way someone is to be saved is through the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul asked the question, How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?(Rom 10:14)



To say that salvation is made possible for all people is to say that the gospel has completely saturated the whole world. There are millions upon millions that have never heard the gospel so how can it be said that salvation is made possible for them?



GLJCA

[Imblessed]

You know what I have noticed in this discussion? I noticed that the majority of the argument against Limited Atonement has been taken from the New Testament (NT). When I was studying Limited Atonement I felt that I could prove it wrong using the NT, but when I looked at the OT I saw Limited Atonement clearly.



God chose Abram (Abraham) to be the father of God’s chosen people. God said that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. He said that He (God) would be their God and they would be His people. Did anyone else have that privilege? NO! God gave the children of Israel the privilege of sacrificing animals, which is a shadow of the one true sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Did the heathen nations have that privilege? NO! It was Israel’s privilege and Israel’s alone. If someone wanted to be included in that privilege they had to become an Israelite by circumcision. God limited who the recipients of that privilege would be, and it wasn’t ALL THE WORLD. Now my question is, Has God changed? I don’t think so! In fact I see no change at all from the blessings in the OT. They are reserved by God for His people, not ALL the world.



In the NT, the Church of Jesus Christ is God’s chosen people (1Pt. 2:9), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), the holy nation that is bringing forth the fruits that God requires. (Matt 21:43). Today the Church is the recipients of God’s blessings, which includes the privilege of having our sins forgiven. Can someone have their sins forgiven and not be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ? Who was Jesus talking to when he said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me? He was talking to His disciples, the Church. Is ALL THE WORLD invited to partake of the Lord’s Supper? If ALL THE WORLD is not invited to partake of the Lord’s Supper, which is a symbol or picture of the atonement of Jesus Christ then how can we believe that the atonement itself is offered to ALL THE WORLD?



It just doesn’t make sense to think that way.

First off, Welcome!!!! :wave:

Secondly, very nice post.

I have brought that very same point up several times and strangely enough :scratch: it gets COMPLETELY ignored! It's a point that cannot be refuted and therefore gets brushed under the carpet.

See ya around! :wave:

[Scholar in training]

God chose Abram (Abraham) to be the father of God’s chosen people. God said that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea. He said that He (God) would be their God and they would be His people. Did anyone else have that privilege? NO! God gave the children of Israel the privilege of sacrificing animals, which is a shadow of the one true sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Did the heathen nations have that privilege? NO! It was Israel’s privilege and Israel’s alone. If someone wanted to be included in that privilege they had to become an Israelite by circumcision. God limited who the recipients of that privilege would be, and it wasn’t ALL THE WORLD. Now my question is, Has God changed? I don’t think so! In fact I see no change at all from the blessings in the OT. They are reserved by God for His people, not ALL the world.
Just to clarify: have God's people always been God's people? That is, have they always been on "his side"? What does it mean to be a part of God's people?


In the NT, the Church of Jesus Christ is God’s chosen people (1Pt. 2:9), the Israel of God (Gal 6:16), the holy nation that is bringing forth the fruits that God requires. (Matt 21:43). Today the Church is the recipients of God’s blessings, which includes the privilege of having our sins forgiven. Can someone have their sins forgiven and not be a part of the Church of Jesus Christ? Who was Jesus talking to when he said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me? He was talking to His disciples, the Church. Is ALL THE WORLD invited to partake of the Lord’s Supper? If ALL THE WORLD is not invited to partake of the Lord’s Supper, which is a symbol or picture of the atonement of Jesus Christ then how can we believe that the atonement itself is offered to ALL THE WORLD?
Do you know the parable of the bridegroom? The guests refused to come. So the bridegroom sent for anyone on the streets who would come to his wedding. Were his invitations limited?

[BBAS 64]

Just to clarify: have God's people always been God's people? That is, have they always been on "his side"? What does it mean to be a part of God's people?



Do you know the parable of the bridegroom? The guests refused to come. So the bridegroom sent for anyone on the streets who would come to his wedding. Were his invitations limited?

Good Day, Scholar in training

Yes, I know that parable very well. You have mis read it the bridgegroom sent for no one it was the "father" the king, the one who provided the garments to attend the wedding of the son.


Many are called "few" are choosen....


Peace to u,

Bill

[GLJCA]

Thank you for the welcome.



Just to clarify: have God's people always been God's people? That is, have they always been on "his side"? What does it mean to be a part of God's people?



I am not sure that I understand the question right but I will try to answer it from where I am in understanding.



Have God’s people always been God’s people?

Ans. First of all let’s look at what a covenant is and how it is administered. A covenant

defined by Robertson is, A covenant is “a bond in blood sovereignly administered by God.” The way a covenant was administered between two people was that they would take animals and cut them in half and the two men would walk between them together. This signified that if one of them broke the covenant the same would happen to them that happened to the animals. In Gen. 15:9-17, when God made the covenant with Abraham He told Abraham to kill a heifer, a she goat, a ram, a turtledove, and a pigeon and cut them in half, except for the birds. The difference was that God put Abraham to sleep and he went through the animals alone signifying that the responsibility to keep the covenant depended on God not Abraham. The covenant between God, Abraham and Abraham’s seed was unconditional. God made the promises to Abraham and his seed, which was Christ (Gal 3:16). The descendants of Abraham benefited from the promises that God made to him but to them the covenant was dependant on their obedience to God. Carefully read the whole chapter of Deut 28. The blessings that God promised to Israel were based on their obedience to God’s commandments.

God required circumcision as a sign of the covenant between Himself and the descendants of Abraham. All the males who were Abraham’s descendants, servants, etc., had to be circumcised or else they would be cut off from the people of Israel. (Gen 17:14) He would have broken the covenant with God.



The children of Israel that God freed from Egypt were circumcised and a part of the covenant with God. The Bible says that they were baptized in the Red Sea, they drank from the Rock, which was Christ, and they ate manna in the wilderness, which was a shadow of Christ the bread of heaven. To me this is a perfect picture of salvation yet almost all of these people died in the wilderness in unbelief, not to enter into God’s rest. (Heb 3:9-12) They were members of God’s covenant by circumcision but they were not circumcised in their hearts. God told them over and over to be circumcised in their hearts. (Deut 10:16. Jer. 4:4) You can see that being in covenant with God did not secure eternal salvation for the descendants of Abraham. There were many that were in covenant with God that died in disobedience and did not enter into God’s rest. Judas was a covenant member. He was among the upper echelon in the Church yet he went to Hell. Why? He was circumcised and a member of the People of God yet he wasn’t ordained to eternal life.



Now let’s move forward to today. The NT equivalent of circumcision is baptism. In the OT we see that through belief and circumcision one entered into the covenant with God. In the NT we see that through belief and baptism one enters into the New Covenant with God. Now does that mean that all who are baptized in every church are ordained to eternal life? NO! It means that they are a part of the church of Jesus Christ and will receive the blessings that God gives to His church. If God has chosen and ordained them to eternal life then, as wheat, they will spend eternity in heaven with Christ, if not then, as tares, they will spend eternity in Hell. Never in history has God’s chosen people ever had a free pass to heaven just because they were in covenant with God. The Pharisees thought that just because they were descendants of Abraham that they had a free ticket to heaven but Jesus called them vipers and told them that the kingdom would be taken from them. (Matt 21:43)



If you will notice in the NT we have the same warnings that the OT covenant people had. Romans 11:20-21, Heb 2:3; 3:12-13; Heb 12:25, these are just a few and there are many more. We tend to overlook these warnings to our shame. We need to be exhorting our brothers to righteousness and purity.



I hope this answered that question. Since this is getting so long I will answer the rest of your question at a later time. Presently I am at work awaiting the decision of whether the refinery will shut down or keep running because of Hurricane Rita. It will come mighty close to us but I think it will miss us. Lord willin!



GLJCA

[Godzchild]

Just to clarify: have God's people always been God's people? That is, have they always been on "his side"? What does it mean to be a part of God's people?


No we haven't. We become God's people by the spirit of adoption into Christ. ONly in Christ are we God's chosen people. We are spiritual Israel through the circumscision of the Holy Spirit. And because we have been engrafted into Israel...then we become the 'chosen' because Israel are chosen.

[BBAS 64]

No we haven't. We become God's people by the spirit of adoption into Christ. ONly in Christ are we God's chosen people. We are spiritual Israel through the circumscision of the Holy Spirit. And because we have been engrafted into Israel...then we become the 'chosen' because Israel are chosen.

Good Day, Godzchild

Jer 24:7 I will give them a heart to know that I am the LORD, and they shall be my people and I will be their God, for they shall return to me with their whole heart.

God gives the heart to know, as a result they are and "shall be" his people.

Peace to u,


Bill

[Rick Otto]

How sweet to lurk & read the doctrines affirmed after hangin' out with arminians, hopin' for a lucid moment.
Rock On, Reformata!:cool:

[Fatty]

How sweet to lurk & read the doctrines affirmed after hangin' out with arminians, hopin' for a lucid moment.
Rock On, Reformata!:cool:

:bow: All Hail the Most High and Holy Calvinsts!

[Elect]

Well, since the topic of this thread is limited atonement, I won't address the issue of Calvinism portraying God as unjust, but I will mention that it only appears to be that way from a human perspective. A few simple examples are all that is necessary to show that Calvinism is actually the only just theology. However, I disgress, you were talking about the atonement.

The third point of the five-point acrostic TULIP is Limited Atonement. Of all the points of Calvinism this is the most hotly disputed, although I have never understood why. Limited atonement, or particular redemption, is the most obvious of all the points, and all orthodox Christian believe in the limited atonement of Christ's death. I'll show you how.

Ask your typical Protestant who Christ died for and he or she will most likely reply, "everyone." Fair enough. We then ask a follow-up question, "What was the effect of Christ's death?" Here there might be a couple different answers, such as, "He died so that anyone who believes could be saved," or, "He died to save the world." Now, since the entire world will not be saved, we can immediately discard the latter argument, which leaves us with an obviously limited atonement: "Christ died so that anyone who believes could be saved." This is the orthodox view of the atonement for all Christians. No one believes that Jesus's death on the cross atones for the sins of the unrepentant. If that were true, his sacrifice would be atoning for the sins of the unjust, the unrighteous. That would make God unrighteous because he would be accepting unjustified sinners into heaven. The Word is clear that we are justified by grace through faith. If a man has not faith, he has not grace. It is therefore impossible for God to justify a man without faith, which means that Jesus's sacrifice does not atone for his sins.

Now, there is a second side to the battle. Many have cleverly tried to avoid this obviously logical pitfall and argue that Christ's atonement was part of a "universal design" for the atonement, but that only those who believe will be saved, of course. However, this violates the laws of cause and effect. To say that God intended for all men to be justified by Christ's sacrifice, but that some aren't, is to say that God is not sovereign. That is to say that there is something that God cannot do: atone for the sins of everyone. If God purposes to do something, it will be done. "For he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest Thou?" (Dan. 4:35 KJV). God's will cannot be frustrated. If I decide to get up and get a drink of water and God decides that I should drink iced tea instead, well, then I'm going to be drinking iced tea. There are no exceptions to this.

Furthermore, God foreknows those who are his. God knows his elect. He knew them before he even created the world. For him to design Christ's sacrifice for all men knowing that only the elect will believe makes absolutely no sense. That would be unjust. It would not be a genuine offer. He would essentially be teasing people with the gift of salvation. All you have to do is believe in Christ and you will be atoned--but since he already knows that they won't believe, the offer has no meaning at all. It would be like offering someone a million dollars if they killed themselves. What in the world is the point of an offer like that? Even if they did kill themselves, they would neither be dead to redeem it, nor be alive to enjoy it. Such is the same as an offer of atonement to those who will never believe.

So you see the solidarity of the Limited Atonement doctrine stands firmly upon the rock. Knowing so plainly and honestly that the nature of the atonement is inherently limited, we can better understand the Scriptures that seem to contradict this by studying their immediate context and their biblical context.

I'll discuss two of the most commonly cited "proof texts" against Limited Atonement to set your mind at ease. They are 1 John 2:2, and the one you have quoted, 1 Tim. 2:4.

When we confer in 1 John 2:2 we need to consider other verses that clarify the point made. I was doing some recent study and came across a couple of verses that clarify the assertion of 2:2 very well.





John makes it clear in the third chapter of his first epistle that he is speaking of the elect of the whole world.(1 John 3:5 KJV) And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.





Jesus came to take away our sins. That is, believers:(1 John 3:6 KJV) Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.





What John is saying is that to whoever sin is imputed, he has not been atoned, but those that have been atoned, to them sin is not imputed, for they are justified through faith. Moreover, this is precisely the purpose for which Matthew attributed his birth in his account of the Gospel, viz. that Christ came to atone for the sins of those who have faith (his people):(Matt. 1:21 KJV) And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.





Additionally, Paul conveys the context of the passage in a parallel statement in Romans:(Rom. 2:11-12) For there is no respect of persons with God. 12) For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;





And then he continues:(Rom. 3:25 KJV) Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;





Paul here says that the propitiation comes through faith, not universally. Moving ahead a couple of verses:(Rom. 3:29 KJV) Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:





Here he sets the context of the promise: being to all people, Jew and Gentile. The promise of propitiation through faith is made without respect concerning persons (Rom. 2:11), but is made according to God's good and pleasing will (Eph. 1:11).



The idea of a universal atonement that is applicable to those who have faith is logically indefensible. It is a cause without an effect. (It follows the same argument used by James against dead faith in the second chapter of his epistle.) A cause without an effect is meaningless, useless, and non-existent. There is no such thing as a cause without an effect.





1 Tim. 2:4 is explained much more easily. Let's have a look at the KJV of the verse:Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.




This is an accurate translation, however, the imprecision of the Greek to English translation makes it appear that Paul is saying God desires that every one be saved. Of course, this is not possible, because if God truly desired that all would be saved, then all would. Instead, let's have a look at a much clearer, much more literal rendering of the Greek. I'll cite the Analytical-Literal Translation:who desires all people [or, peoples] to be saved and to come to a full [or, true] knowledge of the truth.




The Greek word being translated "men," or "people," or "peoples" is anthropos. This word means many things. Here is the Thayer definition:




What we see, rather clearly, is that "men" or "people" here refers not to all men individually, but to all peoples, that is, all kinds of people: both Jew and Gentile. This is the most common use of anthropos in the New Testament. It is a generic term used to refer to humanity. And, of course, this is very much true of God's grace toward all "kinds" of men. Again, this is much the same "problem" that we saw in 1 John 2:2 that was explained by Rom. 3:29. Paul is saying that God desires all peoples of the world, regardless of race, background, gender, or otherwise to be saved. His call is not limited to the Jews, but extends to the Gentiles, whereunto Paul was ordained a preacher and apostle (1 Tim. 2:7).

I hope that aids you in your understanding.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon
[/font]
Good post! I agree! I bet you will sleep better knowing that I agree - lol :wave:

[Jon_]

Good post! I agree! I bet you will sleep better knowing that I agree - lol :wave:
Actually, I will. :)

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

[Unreformedbythetruth]

I understand that the elect are limited. As the scripture says,

Revelation 7

144,000 Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

But there is no limit on how many will be saved, they will be like the sands of the seashore.

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"


13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

[seekingpurity047]

I understand that the elect are limited. As the scripture says,

Revelation 7

144,000 Sealed

1After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth to prevent any wind from blowing on the land or on the sea or on any tree. 2Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.

But there is no limit on how many will be saved, they will be like the sands of the seashore.

The Great Multitude in White Robes

9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"


13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?"

14I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore,
"they are before the throne of God
and serve him day and night in his temple;
and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them.
16Never again will they hunger;
never again will they thirst.
The sun will not beat upon them,
nor any scorching heat.
17For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd;
he will lead them to springs of living water.
And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

What are you trying to argue? That many will be saved? or... maybe, many HAVE been saved? Well... ok?!?! Umm... the great multitude are the elect. There are a lot of believers nowadays. But, how is it that there is a great multitude? The great commission, obviously. Are the elect still limited? Yes. How do you figure? Matt. 7:13-14

13"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=12&end_verse=14&version=47&context=context#fen-ESV-23327a)] that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Some will go by the broad gate, and some will go by the narrow one. Ok... i don't see your reasoning behind using Revelation 7, but whatever. Is Christ's atonement limited? It has to be, for if Christ intended on saving everyone... well... we got a problem here. Not everyone is in heaven/going to heaven. Does Christ not fulfill His own will? Nonsense! Unless you are a universal salvation dude... then we got some serious issues.

So, are you a universalist? If so, I rebuke thee in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

The few workers are the elect, the saved are the harvast. the feild is the world.

Jesus has made the elect the messengers to the world, the hope for the world found in Christ Jesus.

[Unreformedbythetruth]

That's unscriptual. Unbelievers will be condemned and believers will be saved.
As the scripture says,

Rev 16:

7And I heard the altar respond:
"Yes, Lord God Almighty,
true and just are your judgments."


8The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. 9They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him. 10The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done.

[seekingpurity047]

then... tell me, waht is it that you believe?

Randy

[Unreformedbythetruth]

I believe in every word that comes from the mouth of God.

I don't believe in religions, but a relationship with God through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son.

I don't follow man-made doctrine, becaue they fall short from the truth. They are an incomplete work, that try to add onto the truth of God that is not scriptual.

[BBAS 64]

The few workers are the elect, the saved are the harvast. the feild is the world.

Jesus has made the elect the messengers to the world, the hope for the world found in Christ Jesus.

Good day, unreformedbytruth

That nick is trouble some....:scratch:

Scripture please, or you are left with assertion that are baseless.


Peace to u,

Bill

[5solas]

I believe in every word that comes from the mouth of God.

I don't believe in religions, but a relationship with God through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son.

I don't follow man-made doctrine, becaue they fall short from the truth. They are an incomplete work, that try to add onto the truth of God that is not scriptual.

that's funny - so you are a member of the "no man-made doctrine" group which is a doctrine as well, made by men ;)

[seekingpurity047]

I believe in every word that comes from the mouth of God.

I don't believe in religions, but a relationship with God through Jesus Christ His only begotten Son.

I don't follow man-made doctrine, becaue they fall short from the truth. They are an incomplete work, that try to add onto the truth of God that is not scriptual.

You're reasoning is well.... unreasonable. That doesn't make any sense. Calvinism IS scriptural. If you can prove that calvinism is NOT biblical, start a new thread, and let's see how you do using SCRIPTURE.

A reminder: I have noticed that calvinists ALWAYS back things up with scripture BEFORE they come to reason. Most other people... do not.

Randy

[akolouthein]

The few workers are the elect, the saved are the harvast. the feild is the world.

Jesus has made the elect the messengers to the world, the hope for the world found in Christ Jesus.

I would love to see the scriptural support of this statement.

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

Unless you are a universal salvation dude... then we got some serious issues.

So, are you a universalist? If so, I rebuke thee in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!

Randy

I don't think he is a universalist. He doesn't understand what "Limited Atonement" means.

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I don't follow man-made doctrine, becaue they fall short from the truth. They are an incomplete work, that try to add onto the truth of God that is not scriptual.

Do you believe in the Trinity?

If so, then please find the word in Scripture, and also find where the doctrine is specifically spelled out.

Thanks in advance.

[Unreformedbythetruth]

I believe in everything that is scriptual, even that God loved the world

The scripture was already posted about the elect.

I believe in the elect, trinity, Jesus the Man-God, Hell for non-believers and heaven for believers. I believe in the hope that Jesus gives to the world.

2 Corinthians 5

16So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin [Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

I pray that you return back and have the heart of God for the world again.

1 Timothy 2

3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

[Augustine_Was_Calvinist]

I believe in everything that is scriptual, even that God loved the world

The scripture was already postred about the elect.

I believe in the elect, trinity, Jesus th