Calvinism

[pro_odeh]

I have started to look into calvinism, but I just cannot make it fit what is in the Bible. I believe there is much truth, but the predestination doctrine is something that contricits the God of the Bible.
I don't mean this as a critique, but I am honestly interested, and would love if someone could show me how scripture supports this idea (predestination in the Calvin way), because I find that it doesn't...

God bless!!

[TwinCrier]

Calvinsim only holds true if you belive elecion and predestination occur before God created the Earth. If you look up those words in the dictionary, you'll see that the option doesn't actually have to go back that far.
http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn4.htm

[Jasie]

I believe God knows ahead of time what we will do but He does not interfere with our choices. He cannot choose for us whether or not we will be saved or lost.
If He did choose for us then that would be unfair and He could not be called a God of love but a God who has puppets.
The reason why we are still here and not destroyed is because God is allowing the universe to see the results of choosing sin. Once it all ends He does not want anyone to repeat the mistakes that we have made.
There is a war going on and it is the battle for your mind.
There need to be people on earth who will show the universe that it is possible that
through the power found in the name of Jesus and the indwelling Spirit controlling our lives it is possible to keep ourselves from sinning.
The counteracting theology states that we cannot change that we will always be sinning until Jesus comes or until we die.
God said to Mary " and He shall be called JESUS for he will save His people from their sins" This means that God is cleansing His people from their sins. If you are cleansed from something you are clean. There is another verse which says " If the Son shall set you free you shall be free indeed" Freedom from sin is not just a phantom transaction that happens when you believe in Jesus but a reality that is reflected in your personal life. What was once pleasant becomes disgusting, what you once loved now you hate.
God can and will do this and I have also experianced this amazing transformation in my life. I never will say that I am without sin but I can say that God is cleansing me and that what He has promised He will do in His own way and time. I can only say with JOB as found in JOB 9:20,21
"Though I am innocent, my own mouth would condemn me; though I am blameless, he would prove me perverse. I am blameless; I regard not myself; I loathe my life."
If you are truly born again then your life is hid in Christ and you do not regard yourself or put yourself first, instead you put God first.

[rider2]

One of the best books I have read that discusses Calvin, is Dave Hunt's book "Whatever Happened to Heaven."
This book may be out of print by now, but well worth trying to find. When Calvin was given full religious and government politcal control, it reached the point that he, and the control he wielded just could not be tolerated anymore by the populus. Especially the taking of lives by execution.
Especially the religious police state he estabished. This is a dark side of Calvinism and his history that most Christians know nothing about, but should.

[marianservant]

One of the best books I have read that discusses Calvin, is Dave Hunt's book "Whatever Happened to Heaven."
This book may be out of print by now, but well worth trying to find. When Calvin was given full religious and government politcal control, it reached the point that he, and the control he wielded just could not be tolerated anymore by the populus. Especially the taking of lives by execution.
Especially the religious police state he estabished. This is a dark side of Calvinism and his history that most Christians know nothing about, but should.

I am so glad someone else knows this, and I am very interested in this book, I really dislike when clavinists laud Calvin as a great man, when even if he was theologically intelligent, he was a megalomaniac in Geneva. I try to talk to reformed theologians and sometimes I get an intelligent and kind response but more than not I get anger and cruelty...I guess they are heralding back to their founder sadly. :(

God Bless

[twistedsketch]

I am not a Calvinist, but he had a couple of good points. For one, a certain amount of predestination is Biblical. See Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5 and 11, Acts 13:48.

However, I do not believe in limited atonement - I believe some free will has to exist for God to be just (and He is) in condemning sinful man. Also, without free will, Jesus weeping over Jerusalem (Matt. 23:37, Luke 13:34) would be foolish and pointless. Furthermore, God told Israel several times that they had a choice before them, and He is no liar:

Jeremiah 23:3, 36:3,7 and chapter 42
Zephaniah 2:3

[ksen]

I have started to look into calvinism, but I just cannot make it fit what is in the Bible. I believe there is much truth, but the predestination doctrine is something that contricits the God of the Bible.
I don't mean this as a critique, but I am honestly interested, and would love if someone could show me how scripture supports this idea (predestination in the Calvin way), because I find that it doesn't...

God bless!!

This might be better answered in the Semper Reformanda forum. There is a sub-forum called "Ask a Calvinist" that gives a little more leeway as far as give and take for non-Calvinists goes.

http://www.christianforums.com/f493-ask-a-calvinist.html

[ksen]

I try to talk to reformed theologians and sometimes I get an intelligent and kind response but more than not I get anger and cruelty...I guess they are heralding back to their founder sadly. :(

God Bless

A lot of times it has to do with how the question is asked.

[cenimo]

rider2
One of the best books I have read that discusses Calvin, is Dave Hunt's book "Whatever Happened to Heaven."
This book may be out of print by now, but well worth trying to find.

rider2, marianservant,
As of July 9, 2005 there are 52 copies available on amazon, starting at $0.23
http://www.amazon.com

Just go to books and then type in the title.

[Thursday]

I'm no fan of Calvin, but for fairness' sake, I'd be wary of reading anything by Dave Hunt. He wrote a book on Catholicism which is a pure polemic, full of errors. I have not read his book on Calvin but I certainly would not consider Dave Hunt an honest or reputable scholar, and anything he said about Calvin I'd take with a grain of salt.

[Pyrogenesis]

I heard an interesting point of view in regards to pre-destination, so without further ado...

When the Bible talks about people being pre-destined, it may not be talking about specific people. It may instead be refering to certian groups; ie. the church being pre-destined to perform certian tasks in the end times. It's still a matter of individual choice as to whether a person will be part of the pre-destined group, which means that individual people retain freewill.

I think that this particular view holds the best combination of ideas in order to reconcile pre-destination, individual freewill and God's desire that everyone be saved. The church as a group is pre-destined to follow certain paths and God's will is that everyone be part of it, but freewill means that not everyone will choose.

[twistedsketch]

That is possible.

[pegatha]

"In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth." In other words, he created the physical universe and everything in it. Isn't time itself part of that universe?

If so, then there's no reason to think that God experiences this limit we call "time" at all. When the Bible says that He knew something in advance, that's a concession to our human point of view, just like saying that "the sun rises" or "the sun sets."

This is an idea that goes way back in church history, although you don't hear it very often. There are things in Scripture that just make a lot more sense if you think of time as a created element, subject to God, rather than something to which God Himself must submit.