Roman Infallibility

[perpendicular_bisector]

Dearest Friends,

Here is what the Lord hath said to me about Roman Infallibilitiy:

Psalm One Hundred and Eighteen

It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in man.
It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in princes.


Jeremiah Seventeenth Chapter

This is what the LORD says:
"Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who depends on flesh for his strength
and whose heart turns away from the LORD.


Do you depends on the Lord or on the man of Rome, who has only breath in his nostrils? Who is infallible by God alone? Who is good but God alone? man requireth a redeemer- God's only Son. Dont pray to Mary she needs the same redeemer, pray to our King who saveth thee.

[Reformationist]

Umm...are you aware that you're posting this in the non-denominational forum? :scratch: To my knowledge, only those of the Catholic denomination submit to the idea of Papal infallibility, which would exclude everyone who is non-denominational.

God bless

[lismore]

Umm...are you aware that you're posting this in the non-denominational forum? :scratch: To my knowledge, only those of the Catholic denomination submit to the idea of Papal infallibility, which would exclude everyone who is non-denominational.

God bless

Yea.

The next time he hears from God he should tell God to speak within forum guidlines:D :D . just kiddin.

But I had not thought of that. Papal infallability and Godly infallibility. There might be a fine line here between belief and blasphemy. Afterall the bible does say that no MAN is infallible, only GOD.

:crossrc:

[WalksWithChrist]

A good message, but I think you're preaching to the choir! = )

[jasperbound]

Why is the original writings that make up the NT inerrant? Because the writers wrote what they wrote through the Spirit, and the Spirit is infallible.
When the pope is in "infallible" mode, that is when the Spirit is working through him to interpret scripture.
What I'm saying is, I think when we submit to the Spirit and it guides us, we are in such a mode, but then again, can we ever allow the Spirit to completely guide us, or does a remnant of us disrupt it?

[perpendicular_bisector]

A good message, but I think you're preaching to the choir! = )

Hmm, the choir are the folks that needeth to sing

So sing out fair birdS!;)

[perpendicular_bisector]

When the pope is in "infallible" mode, that is when the Spirit is working through him to interpret scripture.
What I'm saying is, I think when we submit to the Spirit and it guides us, we are in such a mode, but then again, can we ever allow the Spirit to completely guide us, or does a remnant of us disrupt it?

Well if the Men of Rome had the Holy Spirit Ministering the Gifts of interpretation through them why did they make a pigs ear of it?

Indulgences:o

We need one another to confirm our minstries of interpretation, no one man, verily yay, even no-one man of Rome has it all!

[Lynn73]

A good message, but I think you're preaching to the choir! = )

Yep!

[Harlan Norris]

Jesus is our salvation.

[WesWoodell]

When the pope is in "infallible" mode, that is when the Spirit is working through him to interpret scripture.


The pope is never in infallible mode - otherwise all their "infallible" teachings would be correct.

What's right - the Bible or the Papal teachings of the Catholic Church?

[savedbygracebre]

You know i don't think it wrong if he comes over here in this forum to state about the errors of catholicism, especially when a certain other member who seems to be very catholic has stated at the end of his discussion of the holy trinity that "unless you are a faithful catholic then you will not have salvation"-look it up. So, brother speak thy truth as long as your source is the Word of God.

[repoland2]

I find it amazing how Christians can be so quick to jump on others when something they feel so strongly about is said, just because it conflicts with their own beliefs.

What happened to the LOVE that the Lord has provided us to give to others who are in need of it?

[savedbygracebre]

I find it amazing how Christians can be so quick to jump on others when something they feel so strongly about is said, just because it conflicts with their own beliefs.

What happened to the LOVE that the Lord has provided us to give to others who are in need of it?
I'm not sure if you are refering to me but in case you are i am not jumping on this individual-he felt it good to state facts and i said i agreed as long as it was based on the Word of God. And as you get to know me i am always going to base everything i say on the Word. The word is a house built on a rock and tradition or self-beliefs are castles built on sand-everything looks really good for the castle until the waves come crashing in. However, God's house will always stand. Also, on a final note-i noticed at the bottom where you have your signature you talk about how God is all love, love, etc. How true brother, just don't forget that God is a very jealous and a JUST God who will give everybody the free gift, but if they refuse it He will condemn then forever. Love yes, jealous yes, and very just-that is the God that my bible talks about-what does your bible say?

[Dark_Lite]

You know i don't think it wrong if he comes over here in this forum to state about the errors of catholicism, especially when a certain other member who seems to be very catholic has stated at the end of his discussion of the holy trinity that "unless you are a faithful catholic then you will not have salvation"-look it up. So, brother speak thy truth as long as your source is the Word of God.

What the indvidual faithful believe do not matter. Read the Catechism. All non-Catholics going to Hell automatically is NOT a teaching of the Church.

[savedbygracebre]

What the indvidual faithful believe do not matter. Read the Catechism. All non-Catholics going to Hell automatically is NOT a teaching of the Church.
So true, as i do have a copy of the catechism handbook which i have read and i am also catholic by religeon. I just get discouraged when someone can put out false doctrine which could mislead one of our newborn babes in Christ to have serious self-doubts in their own faith. I geuss i will accept it the same way Jesus did when the Pharisees and Saucees had him murdered because He spoke the truth which is what they didn't want to hear.

[Asaph]

Personally, I don't think Jesus was kidding when He said this:

John 14:5-6
5 Thomas said to Him, "Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?" 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
NKJV

It matters a great deal what the individual believes.

Asaph

[repoland2]

I'm not sure if you are refering to me but in case you are i am not jumping on this individual-he felt it good to state facts and i said i agreed as long as it was based on the Word of God. And as you get to know me i am always going to base everything i say on the Word. The word is a house built on a rock and tradition or self-beliefs are castles built on sand-everything looks really good for the castle until the waves come crashing in. However, God's house will always stand. Also, on a final note-i noticed at the bottom where you have your signature you talk about how God is all love, love, etc. How true brother, just don't forget that God is a very jealous and a JUST God who will give everybody the free gift, but if they refuse it He will condemn then forever. Love yes, jealous yes, and very just-that is the God that my bible talks about-what does your bible say?

Considering what was said in another thread by Tel, I wouldn't mind just retracting that last statement.

[gtsecc]

Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic.
Anglicans will say their church is Catholic.
Roman Catholics will say their church is Catholic.
Eastern Orthodox will say their church is Catholic.
In fact, anyone who knows what it means, and believe their church contains the fulness of the faith, will say their church is Catholic.

[Bulldog]

Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic.
Anglicans will say their church is Catholic.
Roman Catholics will say their church is Catholic.
Eastern Orthodox will say their church is Catholic.
In fact, anyone who knows what it means, and believe their church contains the fulness of the faith, will say their church is Catholic.

Every true church should probably say that their church is "catholic", including Protestant churches.

[gtsecc]

To correct some misconceptions, the Pope is not considered by anyone to be infalable.
The claim is rather that:
Certain statements, by the Pope, clarifying doctrine are said to be guided by the Holy Spirit such as to prevent them from error.
I am not saying I agree or disagree with that. I am merely sayign that is what teh claim is.

One statment made by the Pope in this manner asserts that Mary was always a Virgin.

My Church reject Papal infalability claims, but does agree that he was correct in this assertion regarding Mary.

[gtsecc]

Every true church should probably say that their church is "catholic", including Protestant churches.
exactly!

[repoland2]

Every true church should probably say that their church is "catholic", including Protestant churches.

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

[Asaph]

To correct some misconceptions, the Pope is not considered by anyone to be infalable.
The claim is rather that:
Certain statements, by the Pope, clarifying doctrine are said to be guided by the Holy Spirit such as to prevent them from error.
I am not saying I agree or disagree with that. I am merely sayign that is what teh claim is.

One statment made by the Pope in this manner asserts that Mary was always a Virgin.

My Church reject Papal infalability claims, but does agree that he was correct in this assertion regarding Mary.

Jesus's half brothers and sisters would have definately said the pope demonstrated fallability in that one. As does the bible. As do I. :)

Asaph

[Asaph]

What exactly do you mean by this statement?

The word "catholic" merely means "universal".

Of course that is not what the common usage has come to mean. ;) :D

Asaph

[gtsecc]

Jesus's half brothers and sisters would have definately said the pope demonstrated fallability in that one. As does the bible. As do I. :)

Asaph
I don't think anyone took Brothers and Sisters to mean children of Mary and Joseph until after the reformation.

You could be right, but is is awfully unlikely that every Christian comentary on the Bible for the first 1500 years just missed that point.

I think it is more likely that some well intintioned folks just started teaching that Mary had other children as a counter to percieved Mary worship.

[Victrixa]

***clarifying a few things in fellowship***

True devoted Catholics do not put their trust in a man. They put their full trust in Jesus. Jesus is guiding the visible Church through His head on earth, i.e., the Pope. Jesus is the only Head of the Church. The Pope is the head of the Church on earth guided by the Head of the Church, Jesus.

Jesus is the King of His Kingdom. In Old Testament times, a King (in Israel) always had a cabinet of prime-ministers to help him do the work. And he had a first prime-minister, a vicar, that would take his place while he was gone. The first prime-minister would be given the keys of the kingdom, that is, the authority, all the time that the King of Israel would be away from his kingdom. When he would return, he would take his keys (authority) back. When the first Prime Minister was in charge of the King's kingdom, he had powers to make decisions.

That's what Papacy is all about, except that Jesus guides the Vicar, His first Prime Minister, the Pope, by the Holy Spirit so that God's Will alone will be done.

The Pope, as a man, is fallible. It is only through the Holy Spirit's guidance concerning faith and morals that he is infallible, because the Holy Spirit who guides him is infallible. But the man himself, outside of the guidance of the Holy Spirit, is definitively fallible.


Also, concerning the Bible, who decided the Canon of your New Testament (and Bible as a whole)? ;)

***leaving discreetly***

[Asaph]

I don't think anyone took Brothers and Sisters to mean children of Mary and Joseph until after the reformation.

You could be right, but is is awfully unlikely that every Christian comentary on the Bible for the first 1500 years just missed that point.

I think it is more likely that some well intintioned folks just started teaching that Mary had other children as a counter to percieved Mary worship.

Well, not really. I got saved, started reading my bible, and when it said Jesus had brothers and sisters I just accepted what I was reading. I understood that Mary got pregnant with Jesus even though she was a virgin. And I understood that Joseph and Mary had normal sexual relations afterwards and produced other children. (even though technically Joseph is really only Jesus' stepdad).

It actually wasn't until much later that I discovered that the RCC (and the Anglicans now) taught that Joseph and Mary had no kids, but by that time I was a mature enough Christian to know that they were in error.

What do the Ultrechs (sic?) teach about this?

Asaph

[repoland2]

The word "catholic" merely means "universal".

Of course that is not what the common usage has come to mean. ;) :D

Asaph

Ahhh, I did not know that. Thank you!

[gtsecc]

It actually wasn't until much later that I discovered that the RCC (and the Anglicans now) taught that Joseph and Mary had no kids, but by that time I was a mature enough Christian to know that they were in error.

What do the Ultrechs (sic?) teach about this?

Asaph
The word used can mean cousins or brothers. But, the people who knew Mary, such as John and Luke, held her to be a Virgin. The entire church did from Pentecost onward until the reformation, and even then the reformers held Mary as perpetual Virgin.

RCC - says Mary was always a Virgin - those were cousins
Anglican - says Mary was always a Virgin - those were cousins
Eastern Orthodox - says Mary was always a Virgin - those were cousins
Oriental Orthodox - says Mary was always a Virgin - those were cousins
Martin Luther - says Mary was always a Virgin - those were cousins
John Calvin - says Mary was always a Virgin - those were cousins

Asaph, your avitar indicates you are a Martin Luther Hero, me too! I think most of his stuff is fantastic.

Here is what Martin Luther says about Mary:





Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . "brothers" really means "cousins" here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.



(Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39)



He, Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.



(Ibid.)



God says . . . : "Mary's Son is My only Son." Thus Mary is the Mother of God.



(Ibid.)



God did not derive his divinity from Mary; but it does not follow that it is therefore wrong to say that God was born of Mary, that God is Mary's Son, and that Mary is God's mother . . . She is the true mother of God and bearer of God . . . Mary suckled God, rocked God to sleep, prepared broth and soup for God, etc. For God and man are one person, one Christ, one Son, one Jesus, not two Christs . . . just as your son is not two sons . . . even though he has two natures, body and soul, the body from you, the soul from God alone.



(On the Councils and the Church, 1539)
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ95.HTM (http://ic.net/%7Eerasmus/RAZ95.HTM)

[Victrixa]

Concerning Mary's perpetual virginity.

Mary lived in the temple as a young girl and until her 'teenage' years, that is around 15 or 16. She had offered herself as a virgin to the Lord. It was normal, in those days, for young ladies to offer themselves up to God as virgins (as do nuns and the religious today).

Joseph was much much older than Mary. He was widowed and already had children. When Joseph learned that he had to take care of Mary he accepted to do so. However, he knew that she had offered herself up as a virgin to God.

Jesus' 'brothers and sisters' are really the children of Joseph.

This is, in short, what happened. :)

[jasperbound]

Well, not really. I got saved, started reading my bible, and when it said Jesus had brothers and sisters I just accepted what I was reading. I understood that Mary got pregnant with Jesus even though she was a virgin. And I understood that Joseph and Mary had normal sexual relations afterwards and produced other children. (even though technically Joseph is really only Jesus' stepdad).

In the OT, King Ahab refers to King Jehosephat (sic) as a brother, even though they are not literal brothers.

[Asaph]

Well then, let's take a closer look.

Matt 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Matt 4:21-22
21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. And He called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Matt 12:47
47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You."
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Matt 12:48-49
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Later we find this passage, still originally written in greek:

Col 4:10-11
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him),
NKJV


NT:431
anepsios (an-eps'-ee-os); from NT:1 (as a particle of union) and an obsolete nepos (a brood); properly, akin, i.e. (specially) a cousin:

KJV - sister's son.

Ahhhhhh. So there actually is a word in Greek that means "cousin".

So then whomever translated Matthew's gospel into greek was unaware of that? I don't buy it. That would call into question the entire rest of the gospel.

Asaph

[Lynn73]

.


Also, concerning the Bible, who decided the Canon of your New Testament (and Bible as a whole)? ;)

***leaving discreetly***

Not who you think. :cool:

[Lynn73]

What do the Ultrechs (sic?) teach about this?

Asaph

What's an Untrech? I've asked before but never got an answer. :scratch:

[Lynn73]

Every true church should probably say that their church is "catholic", including Protestant churches.

Yes, Christ's church is universal or catholic. He has members everywhere on the globe. I just used a small c so people will know when I talk of Christ's church I'm not talking about the Roman Catholic Church.

[Asaph]

What's an Untrech? I've asked before but never got an answer. :scratch:

Actually, we both misspelled it. It is supposed to be Ultrecht.

The guy who calls himself "father rick" is a preist in that organization.

Their icon is the upside down cross thing.

Asaph

But I still have not heard from anyone on my "cousin" question.....:D

[gtsecc]

The Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches

Father Rick certainly would affirm Mary's Perpetual Virginity, and he can tell you why using the Greek also, I bet.

[gtsecc]

But I still have not heard from anyone on my "cousin" question.....:D
Ok, if you are correct then, how did no one notice that for 1600 years?
How come Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli explicitly affirm Mary's Perpetual Virginity in sermons and their writings? Do you really believe that no one noticed that or wrote about it for over 1,000 years? I think it is much more likely that some well intentioned folks just made a mistake and thought she had other children.

[lismore]

Well then, let's take a closer look.

Matt 4:18-20
18 And Jesus, walking by the Sea of Galilee, saw two brothers, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea; for they were fishermen. 19 Then He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 They immediately left their nets and followed Him.
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Matt 4:21-22
21 Going on from there, He saw two other brothers, James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother, in the boat with Zebedee their father, mending their nets. And He called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father, and followed Him.
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Matt 12:47
47 Then one said to Him, "Look, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak with You."
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Matt 12:48-49
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

Later we find this passage, still originally written in greek:

Col 4:10-11
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him),
NKJV


NT:431
anepsios (an-eps'-ee-os); from NT:1 (as a particle of union) and an obsolete nepos (a brood); properly, akin, i.e. (specially) a cousin:

KJV - sister's son.

Ahhhhhh. So there actually is a word in Greek that means "cousin".

So then whomever translated Matthew's gospel into greek was unaware of that? I don't buy it. That would call into question the entire rest of the gospel.

Asaph

If Jesus brothers and sisters were his cousins, then where else would the bible be wrong?

Now why is Paul's letter on the perpetual virginity of mary missing? Surely the queen of heaven and mother of god would be important enough to get a mention in one of the letters.

Its because this false teaching did not arrive until later.

Another example:


7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, were all those in Rome called to be saints people whom Peter had canonized:D ? Or were they those who had been sanctified by the Blood of Jesus? Are all believers not sanctified?

The previous pope is going to be made a saint. If he was not a saint before he died then.........................:holy: you see what I mean

Lismore:)

[lismore]

Ok, if you are correct then, how did no one notice that for 1600 years?
How come Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli explicitly affirm Mary's Perpetual Virginity in sermons and their writings? Do you really believe that no one noticed that or wrote about it for over 1,000 years? I think it is much more likely that some well intentioned folks just made a mistake and thought she had other children.

Q: Why does Paul or indeed,:D :D , the first pope Peter not mention this teaching?

Answer: because this teaching was invented after the days of the apostles.

:eek:

[lismore]

The Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches

Father Rick certainly would affirm Mary's Perpetual Virginity, and he can tell you why using the Greek also, I bet.

Will Wooglesworth could show you where Mary's Perpetual Virginity is wrong, using Greek, Aramaic and Chinese, I wager.

Ah come on, dont you know why?

[lismore]

Catholic does not mean Roman Catholic.
Anglicans will say their church is Catholic.
Roman Catholics will say their church is Catholic.
Eastern Orthodox will say their church is Catholic.
In fact, anyone who knows what it means, and believe their church contains the fulness of the faith, will say their church is Catholic.

1 Corinthians 12:20 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=1 Corinthians 12:20)
As it is, there are many parts, but one body.


As soon as someone gives their heart to Jesus then they become a member of the church. All believers are members of the same body, the Church.

The Church cuts accross all denominations and groups and 'churches'- there are people in every denomination that are saved and there are people in every denomination that are not saved. There will be popes and protestant clergy in heaven together and the opposite is also true. There will be people of every colour in heaven, of every occupation and social status.

Jesus is the head of the church. How does the head give orders?

Hebrews 1:1 1In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.

Jesus speaks to all believers, not via man but to you.

If you have not yet heard Jesus voice then you are not yet one of his sheep.



John 10:16 NIV (http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=John 10:16)
I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

One flock, one shepherd and Jesus is the good shepherd. The body has a head, there is not a vacancy for another one.

:)

[Asaph]

Ok, if you are correct then, how did no one notice that for 1600 years?
How come Martin Luther, John Calvin, and Ulrich Zwingli explicitly affirm Mary's Perpetual Virginity in sermons and their writings? Do you really believe that no one noticed that or wrote about it for over 1,000 years? I think it is much more likely that some well intentioned folks just made a mistake and thought she had other children.

While Martin Luther did say that he thought Mary stayed a virgin, he also said that he would disavow it before he would let it become elevated to the status of Mary worship.

I don't have a clue what Calvin or Zwingly said about the subject. Frankly, if all three of these people were mistaken on this one thing it's no big deal to me. I don't hold them to be infallible anymore than I hold myself to be. :D

Asaph

[perpendicular_bisector]

Q: Why does Paul or indeed,:D :D , the first pope Peter not mention this teaching?

Answer: because this teaching was invented after the days of the apostles.

:eek:

Yay

and

YAY!

Where is the primacy of Mary or Rome from the scripture?

[Lynn73]

Actually, we both misspelled it. It is supposed to be Ultrecht.

The guy who calls himself "father rick" is a preist in that organization.

Their icon is the upside down cross thing.

Asaph

But I still have not heard from anyone on my "cousin" question.....:D

But that doesn't tell me who they are or what they believe. Are they Catholic or similar to Catholic..or Orthodox?

[Asaph]

But that doesn't tell me who they are or what they believe. Are they Catholic or similar to Catholic..or Orthodox?

I think Rick told me one time that their organization was never a part of the organization now known as the Roman Catholic church. I think it was a simultainiously developed organization.

But that has been quite a while ago that he and I talked about it. It would be best to ask him directly.

Asaph

[gtsecc]

They are part of the Historic faith, so they have had a laying on of hands tracable back to the disciples and Christ. It passed through Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox lines. They split off of the Roman Catholic Church over Papal Authority claims.

[Father Rick]

:wave:

I got a pm from someone saying I should pop in and explain who the Old Catholics are.

BTW it's the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches... The icon here on CF is what is know as the "conqueror's cross" which is a modified Jerusalem cross. The greek lettering around it means "Jesus Christ, Conqueror".

Here is a link to a full explanation of who were are http://www.christianforums.com/t1161975-the-utrecht-union-of-old-catholic-churches.html from the Scripture, Tradition, and Reason-- Anglican/Old Catholic forum.

You can get more info on us on my Church's website www.saintthomasmorechurch.com (http://www.saintthomasmorechurch.com/)



And for the record... regarding this particular issue, Old Catholics hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary, as do ALL the historic churches since this was declared formal dogma in the same councils that collected the Scriptures to preserve what we now know as the Bible. It has only been in the past 200 years that this was even a questions, as ALL parts of the early Church held to this doctrine.

If anyone has any further questions regarding us OC's, I'll be glad to help if I can.

Blessings!

[gtsecc]

ALL the historic churches since this was declared formal dogma in the same councils that collected the Scriptures to preserve what we now know as the Bible. It has only been in the past 200 years that this was even a questions, as ALL parts of the early Church held to this doctrine.
Wow.
So, lets see what you have to believe if you think Mary had other children:

1. The folks who gathered Scripture together in the councils, were correctly guided by the Holy Spirit in doing that, but somehow misled on Mary's perpetual Virginity.

2. None of these folks, including many who died to keep the faith alive, read scripture.

or

They did, but were mislead into thinking brothers could also mean cousins.
In fact, either no one read scripture for...1800 years or those that did misunderstood it.

3. 200 years ago, someone finally read the scriptures and was guided by the Holy Spirt to the truth of the matter.

[Asaph]

:wave:

I got a pm from someone saying I should pop in and explain who the Old Catholics are.

BTW it's the Utrecht Union of Old Catholic Churches... The icon here on CF is what is know as the "conqueror's cross" which is a modified Jerusalem cross. The greek lettering around it means "Jesus Christ, Conqueror".

Here is a link to a full explanation of who were are http://www.christianforums.com/t1161975-the-utrecht-union-of-old-catholic-churches.html from the Scripture, Tradition, and Reason-- Anglican/Old Catholic forum.

You can get more info on us on my Church's website www.saintthomasmorechurch.com (http://www.saintthomasmorechurch.com/)



And for the record... regarding this particular issue, Old Catholics hold to the perpetual virginity of Mary, as do ALL the historic churches since this was declared formal dogma in the same councils that collected the Scriptures to preserve what we now know as the Bible. It has only been in the past 200 years that this was even a questions, as ALL parts of the early Church held to this doctrine.

If anyone has any further questions regarding us OC's, I'll be glad to help if I can.

Blessings!

Thanks Rick. Not only did I have the history wrong, but I had three shots at spelling the name correctly and blew it each time I think! :D

The link was especially helpful. :thumbsup:

Asaph

[lovesblessing]

.....which appears in the first chapter of Matthew.......


Matthew 1:18-25 (King James Version)

King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9) (KJV) Public Domain (http://www.biblegateway.com/help/faq/?id=2#10)

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=34) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24)





18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.




Matthew 1:18-25 (Amplified Bible)

Amplified Bible (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=45) (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation (http://www.lockman.org/)

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=54 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=54) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=3) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=1)



18Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place under these circumstances: When His mother Mary had been promised in marriage to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.

19And her [promised] husband Joseph, being a just and upright man and not willing to expose her publicly and to shame and disgrace her, decided to repudiate and dismiss (divorce) her quietly and secretly.

20But as he was thinking this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary [as] your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.

21She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus [the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua, which means Savior], for He will save His people from their sins [that is, prevent them from [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:18-25;&version=45;#fen-AMP-23166a)]failing and missing the true end and scope of life, which is God].

22All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet,

23Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel--which, when translated, means, God with us.(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:18-25;&version=45;#cen-AMP-23168A))

24Then Joseph, being aroused from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him: he took [her to his side as] his wife.

25But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus.




Matthew 1:18-25 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=15) (YLT) Public Domain (http://www.biblegateway.com/help/faq/?id=2#10)

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=31)





18And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit,

19and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing to make her an example, did wish privately to send her away.

20And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten of the Holy Spirit,

21and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'

22And all this hath come to pass, that it may be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,

23`Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted `With us [he is] God.'

24And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, 25and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.




Matthew 1:18-25 (The Message)

The Message (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=65) (MSG) Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson (http://www.messagebible.com/)




The Birth of Jesus

18The birth of Jesus took place like this. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. Before they came to the marriage bed, Joseph discovered she was pregnant. (It was by the Holy Spirit, but he didn't know that.) 19Joseph, chagrined but noble, determined to take care of things quietly so Mary would not be disgraced.


20While he was trying to figure a way out, he had a dream. God's angel spoke in the dream: "Joseph, son of David, don't hesitate to get married. Mary's pregnancy is Spirit-conceived. God's Holy Spirit has made her pregnant. 21She will bring a son to birth, and when she does, you, Joseph, will name him Jesus--"God saves'--because he will save his people from their sins." 22This would bring the prophet's embryonic sermon to full term:



23Watch for this--a virgin will get pregnant and bear a son;

They will name him Emmanuel (Hebrew for "God is

with us").



24Then Joseph woke up. He did exactly what God's angel commanded in the dream: He married Mary. 25But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

[i]Ginosko


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1097 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1097&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originginwvskwa prolonged form of a primary verbTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1097&version=kjv#Legend) EntryGinosko1:689,119Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechghin-oce'-ko http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=1097g) Verb Definition

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
to become known

to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of


to understand
to know

Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
to become acquainted with, to know
King James Word Usage - Total: 223know 196, perceive 9, understand 8, miscellaneous 10 KJV Verse Count Matthew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mt&number=1097&count=20&version=kjv)20Mark (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mr&number=1097&count=13&version=kjv)13Luke (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=lu&number=1097&count=28&version=kjv)28John (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=joh&number=1097&count=49&version=kjv)49Acts (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ac&number=1097&count=18&version=kjv)18Romans (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ro&number=1097&count=9&version=kjv)91 Corinthians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1co&number=1097&count=12&version=kjv)122 Corinthians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2co&number=1097&count=7&version=kjv)7Galatians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ga&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)3Ephesians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=eph&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)3Philippians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=php&number=1097&count=5&version=kjv)5Colossians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=col&number=1097&count=1&version=kjv)11 Thessalonians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1th&number=1097&count=1&version=kjv)12 Timothy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2ti&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)3Hebrews (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=heb&number=1097&count=4&version=kjv)4James (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=jas&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)32 Peter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2pe&number=1097&count=2&version=kjv)21 John (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1jo&number=1097&count=21&version=kjv)212 John (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2jo&number=1097&count=1&version=kjv)1Revelation (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=re&number=1097&count=5&version=kjv)5Total208Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.



Make God's Word the final source, and you will not be led astray from the Truth!:amen:

lovesblessing;)

[Asaph]

Wow, Excellent post Lovesblessing. That seems pretty clear to me that Mary and Joseph were normal husband and wife after the birth of Jesus.

Not even to mention that had they not had normal relations with resulting children, that fact alone would have stigmtized Mary as having been unfaithful to Joseph during the betrothel period.

Joseph affirmed Mary's virginity by the consumation of the marriage, in other words.

Asaph

[Father Rick]

.....which appears in the first chapter of Matthew.......


Matthew 1:18-25 (King James Version)

King James Version (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9) (KJV) Public Domain (http://www.biblegateway.com/help/faq/?id=2#10)

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=34 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=34) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=24 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=24)





18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife: 25And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.




Matthew 1:18-25 (Amplified Bible)

Amplified Bible (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=45) (AMP) Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation (http://www.lockman.org/)

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=54 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=54) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=3 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=3) http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=1 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=1)



18Now the birth of Jesus Christ took place under these circumstances: When His mother Mary had been promised in marriage to Joseph, before they came together, she was found to be pregnant [through the power] of the Holy Spirit.

19And her [promised] husband Joseph, being a just and upright man and not willing to expose her publicly and to shame and disgrace her, decided to repudiate and dismiss (divorce) her quietly and secretly.

20But as he was thinking this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph, descendant of David, do not be afraid to take Mary [as] your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of (from, out of) the Holy Spirit.

21She will bear a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus [the Greek form of the Hebrew Joshua, which means Savior], for He will save His people from their sins [that is, prevent them from [a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:18-25;&version=45;#fen-AMP-23166a)]failing and missing the true end and scope of life, which is God].

22All this took place that it might be fulfilled which the Lord had spoken through the prophet,

23Behold, the virgin shall become pregnant and give birth to a Son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel--which, when translated, means, God with us.(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%201:18-25;&version=45;#cen-AMP-23168A))

24Then Joseph, being aroused from his sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him: he took [her to his side as] his wife.

25But he had no union with her as her husband until she had borne her firstborn Son; and he called His name Jesus.




Matthew 1:18-25 (Young's Literal Translation)

Young's Literal Translation (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=15) (YLT) Public Domain (http://www.biblegateway.com/help/faq/?id=2#10)

http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgview.php?what=31 (http://www.biblegateway.com/bg_versions/bgclick.php?what=31)





18And of Jesus Christ, the birth was thus: For his mother Mary having been betrothed to Joseph, before their coming together she was found to have conceived from the Holy Spirit,

19and Joseph her husband being righteous, and not willing to make her an example, did wish privately to send her away.

20And on his thinking of these things, lo, a messenger of the Lord in a dream appeared to him, saying, `Joseph, son of David, thou mayest not fear to receive Mary thy wife, for that which in her was begotten of the Holy Spirit,

21and she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.'

22And all this hath come to pass, that it may be fulfilled that was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,

23`Lo, the virgin shall conceive, and she shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,' which is, being interpreted `With us [he is] God.'

24And Joseph, having risen from the sleep, did as the messenger of the Lord directed him, and received his wife, 25and did not know her till she brought forth her son -- the first-born, and he called his name Jesus.




Matthew 1:18-25 (The Message)

The Message (http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/?action=getVersionInfo&vid=65) (MSG) Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson (http://www.messagebible.com/)




The Birth of Jesus

18The birth of Jesus took place like this. His mother, Mary, was engaged to be married to Joseph. Before they came to the marriage bed, Joseph discovered she was pregnant. (It was by the Holy Spirit, but he didn't know that.) 19Joseph, chagrined but noble, determined to take care of things quietly so Mary would not be disgraced.


20While he was trying to figure a way out, he had a dream. God's angel spoke in the dream: "Joseph, son of David, don't hesitate to get married. Mary's pregnancy is Spirit-conceived. God's Holy Spirit has made her pregnant. 21She will bring a son to birth, and when she does, you, Joseph, will name him Jesus--"God saves'--because he will save his people from their sins." 22This would bring the prophet's embryonic sermon to full term:



23Watch for this--a virgin will get pregnant and bear a son;

They will name him Emmanuel (Hebrew for "God is

with us").



24Then Joseph woke up. He did exactly what God's angel commanded in the dream: He married Mary. 25But he did not consummate the marriage until she had the baby. He named the baby Jesus.

[i]Ginosko


The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon

Strong's Number: 1097 Browse Lexicon (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/browse.cgi?number=1097&version=kjv) Original WordWord Originginwvskwa prolonged form of a primary verbTransliterated WordTDNT (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1097&version=kjv#Legend) EntryGinosko1:689,119Phonetic SpellingParts of Speechghin-oce'-ko http://bible.crosswalk.com/images/audio.gif (http://bible.crosswalk.com/cgi-bin/lexicon.pl?id=1097g) Verb Definition

to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
to become known

to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of


to understand
to know

Jewish idiom for ual between a man and a woman
to become acquainted with, to know
King James Word Usage - Total: 223know 196, perceive 9, understand 8, miscellaneous 10 KJV Verse Count Matthew (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mt&number=1097&count=20&version=kjv)20Mark (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=mr&number=1097&count=13&version=kjv)13Luke (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=lu&number=1097&count=28&version=kjv)28John (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=joh&number=1097&count=49&version=kjv)49Acts (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ac&number=1097&count=18&version=kjv)18Romans (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ro&number=1097&count=9&version=kjv)91 Corinthians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1co&number=1097&count=12&version=kjv)122 Corinthians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2co&number=1097&count=7&version=kjv)7Galatians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=ga&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)3Ephesians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=eph&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)3Philippians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=php&number=1097&count=5&version=kjv)5Colossians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=col&number=1097&count=1&version=kjv)11 Thessalonians (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1th&number=1097&count=1&version=kjv)12 Timothy (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2ti&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)3Hebrews (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=heb&number=1097&count=4&version=kjv)4James (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=jas&number=1097&count=3&version=kjv)32 Peter (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2pe&number=1097&count=2&version=kjv)21 John (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=1jo&number=1097&count=21&version=kjv)212 John (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=2jo&number=1097&count=1&version=kjv)1Revelation (http://bible.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Greek/freqdisp.cgi?book=re&number=1097&count=5&version=kjv)5Total208Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.






Make God's Word the final source, and you will not be led astray from the Truth!:amen:

lovesblessing;)
While I can't debate here, may I suggest you do a word study on the word translated 'until' here... looking at some of the different meanings of that word may affect your view of this passage. (Saying something didn't happen before a certain time doesn't automatically mean it happened after that time.)

I've probably already gone too far in this forum, so I'll bow out now...

Blessings!

[lismore]

While I can't debate here, may I suggest you do a word study on the word translated 'until' here... looking at some of the different meanings of that word may affect your view of this passage. (Saying something didn't happen before a certain time doesn't automatically mean it happened after that time.)

I've probably already gone too far in this forum, so I'll bow out now...

Blessings!

Hi:wave:

Dont bow out.

You've been cited as the only person who knows the catholic textbook answer to this.

We are all waiting to receive the bible verses where is says Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Lismore:)

[lismore]

Wow.
So, lets see what you have to believe if you think Mary had other children:

1. The folks who gathered Scripture together in the councils, were correctly guided by the Holy Spirit in doing that, but somehow misled on Mary's perpetual Virginity.

2. None of these folks, including many who died to keep the faith alive, read scripture.

or

They did, but were mislead into thinking brothers could also mean cousins.
In fact, either no one read scripture for...1800 years or those that did misunderstood it.

3. 200 years ago, someone finally read the scriptures and was guided by the Holy Spirt to the truth of the matter.

Hi there:wave:

1) The bible catholics use and protestants use is different. Someone misled someone somewhere.

2) The Medieval Church of Rome burned people alive for reading or translating the bible. Why? Because they would see all the practices of that group that were not supported by Scripture. Martin Luther translated the bible, let them read it and see that these practices were not in scripture and so millions broke away from the church of Rome. Many others in Spain and Italy were murdered by the 'Holy Inquisition' for breaking away. One pope had a woman roasted alive in St Peter's Square.

3) From Luther's time onwards people could fianlly read the bible and see that it said Jesus has brothers and sisters.

[lismore]

.....

Make God's Word the final source, and you will not be led astray from the Truth!:amen:

lovesblessing;)


:thumbsup:

Amen and amen:groupray:

[Collum Cille of Iona]

While I can't debate here, may I suggest you do a word study on the word translated 'until' here... looking at some of the different meanings of that word may affect your view of this passage. (Saying something didn't happen before a certain time doesn't automatically mean it happened after that time.)

I've probably already gone too far in this forum, so I'll bow out now...

Blessings!

Mary was a virgin when she bore Jesus: this is necessary for our salvation.

Anything further will be a stumbling block for some brethern and we do not want this?

Slainte Mhath

Collum Cille of Iona:liturgy:

[Asaph]

Hi there:wave:

1) The bible catholics use and protestants use is different. Someone misled someone somewhere.

2) The Medieval Church of Rome burned people alive for reading or translating the bible. Why? Because they would see all the practices of that group that were not supported by Scripture. Martin Luther translated the bible, let them read it and see that these practices were not in scripture and so millions broke away from the church of Rome. Many others in Spain and Italy were murdered by the 'Holy Inquisition' for breaking away. One pope had a woman roasted alive in St Peter's Square.

3) From Luther's time onwards people could fianlly read the bible and see that it said Jesus has brothers and sisters.

Amen Lismore. And again I'll say if Matthew meant cousin, why didn't the translator use the greek word for cousin?

Matt 12:48-49
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother.

There is a greek word for cousin:

Col 4:10-11
10 Aristarchus my fellow prisoner greets you, with Mark the cousin of Barnabas (about whom you received instructions: if he comes to you, welcome him),
NKJV


NT:431
anepsios (an-eps'-ee-os); from NT:1 (as a particle of union) and an obsolete nepos (a brood); properly, akin, i.e. (specially) a cousin:

KJV - sister's son.

Mary may have been blessed above all other women, but she was still a sinner in need of a saviour just like every other person born on the planet except one. Jesus.

Asaph

[Father Rick]

Hi:wave:

Dont bow out.

You've been cited as the only person who knows the catholic textbook answer to this.

We are all waiting to receive the bible verses where is says Mary was a perpetual virgin.

Lismore:)Sorry... CF rules... come over to one of the other forums I am in and I'll be happy to go into this in as much depth as you like.

I will ask-- Why did Jesus, on the cross, need to entrust the care of His mother Mary to John the son of Zebedee?

Blessings!

[gtsecc]

1) The bible catholics use and protestants use is different. Someone misled someone somewhere.

2) The Medieval Church of Rome burned people alive for reading or translating the bible. Why? Because they would see all the practices of that group that were not supported by Scripture. Martin Luther translated the bible, let them read it and see that these practices were not in scripture and so millions broke away from the church of Rome. Many others in Spain and Italy were murdered by the 'Holy Inquisition' for breaking away. One pope had a woman roasted alive in St Peter's Square.

3) From Luther's time onwards people could fianlly read the bible and see that it said Jesus has brothers and sisters.

1. New testament is the same.
2. What about non Roman Medievil Churches?
3. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli said Mary was a perpetual virgin.

I guess Father Rick is correct - come over to STR if you want to know much more. I appreaciate you all letting me debate as much as I have over here. peace.

[Asaph]

Sorry... CF rules... come over to one of the other forums I am in and I'll be happy to go into this in as much depth as you like.

I will ask-- Why did Jesus, on the cross, need to entrust the care of His mother Mary to John the son of Zebedee?

Blessings!

Because none of His flesh and blood brothers were yet saved, but John would be very shortly.

Matt 12:48-49
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
NKJV

Blood may be thicker than water, but the Spiritual family trumps them all. :)

Asaph

[Lynn73]

Wow, Excellent post Lovesblessing. That seems pretty clear to me that Mary and Joseph were normal husband and wife after the birth of Jesus.

Not even to mention that had they not had normal relations with resulting children, that fact alone would have stigmtized Mary as having been unfaithful to Joseph during the betrothel period.

Joseph affirmed Mary's virginity by the consumation of the marriage, in other words.

Asaph

I, too, believe Joseph and Mary had normal marital relations after the birth of Christ. No reaons not to since the Bible says he knew her not until she brought forth her first born son. The normal way anyone would understand that sentence is that after she did bring Him forth, she did have relations with Joseph. When you say to your child you can't have a snack or watch TV until you do your homework isn't the understanding of the child that as soon as he does what he's supposed to do he WILL get that snack or be able to watch TV? It doesn't fit Catholic doctrine so it seems they must find a way to explain it away. Why not just accept what it says instead of trying to make it say something else? Doctrine should be changed to fit Scripture, not the other way around.

[Lynn73]

http://www3.christianforums.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Personally.....I will take God's word on this subject....
Amen! And I, too, choose to take God's word on the subject over the words of men.

[Collum Cille of Iona]

[/b][/color][/size][/b]
Amen! And I, too, choose to take God's word on the subject over the words of men.

Greetings

There seems to be a fair bit of upset towards the Catholic Church here, much of it justified and sincere.

I would like to apologise for certain things to clear the atmosphere here.

There has been a tendency for the catholic hierarchy to be proud and overbearing when they should have repented and been humble in the light of certain revealations. They should have repented and relented and spared the Body the shock of the reformation, instead of overbearing attitudes and an insistence on conformity as a substitute to unity. A lot of manifold and outlandish rhetoric has come out as a defence mechanism, but we all know that it is Jesus to thank for our redemption and sanctification. The church can oft times be a vehicle for the conveyance of the penitant to Jesus but the church is not in the place of Jesus himself. And the church is not made up of one body or denomination.

On behalf of catholics we apologise for oft times refusing to enter the kingdom of God and refusing to let diverse other people enter.

I hope this clears the air

Collum Cille of Iona:hug:

For all

[Asaph]

Greetings

There seems to be a fair bit of upset towards the Catholic Church here, much of it justified and sincere.

I would like to apologise for certain things to clear the atmosphere here.

There has been a tendency for the catholic hierarchy to be proud and overbearing when they should have repented and been humble in the light of certain revealations. They should have repented and relented and spared the Body the shock of the reformation, instead of overbearing attitudes and an insistence on conformity as a substitute to unity. A lot of manifold and outlandish rhetoric has come out as a defence mechanism, but we all know that it is Jesus to thank for our redemption and sanctification. The church can oft times be a vehicle for the conveyance of the penitant to Jesus but the church is not in the place of Jesus himself. And the church is not made up of one body or denomination.

On behalf of catholics we apologise for oft times refusing to enter the kingdom of God and refusing to let diverse other people enter.

I hope this clears the air

Collum Cille of Iona:hug:

For all

Oh my. I don't know that I have ever read such a thing, I pray you will be patient and merciful as I try to absorb it.

I hope that you do understand that in the same way that I do not speak for all reformed born again Christians, I will also understand that, at least for now, you do not speak for all Roman Catholics.

I do get the impression though that you have met my Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Messiah. :)

Asaph

[Lynn73]

Wow, not many Catholics speak like that it seems. Like Asaph, it'll take a little time to absorb.

[Bulldog]

Amen Lismore. And again I'll say if Matthew meant cousin, why didn't the translator use the greek word for cousin?


Adelphos literally means "from the same womb", and while it can mean refer to a relative other than a sibling, it takes strong contextual reason to understand it as such. Adelphos never (or at least, other than the disputed texts about Mary's perpetual virginity) means something other than "brother" in the New Testament, and I don't believe there is any Greek literature within the time period that uses adelphos as such.

[Asaph]

Adelphos literally means "from the same womb", and while it can mean refer to a relative other than a sibling, it takes strong contextual reason to understand it as such. Adelphos never (or at least, other than the disputed texts about Mary's perpetual virginity) means something other than "brother" in the New Testament, and I don't believe there is any Greek literature within the time period that uses adelphos as such.

I do have to wonder sometimes just what it was that began the notion that Mary had to have remained a virgin even after the birth of Jesus. None of the NT writers give any support or creedence to the idea, and I cannot see that it was a requirement of Jesus fulfilling any OT prophecy that she be celibate after the birth of the Lord.

Asaph

[lismore]

[/b][/color][/size][/b]
Amen! And I, too, choose to take God's word on the subject over the words of men.

And what men:sigh: . Heres a picture of the previous pope kissing the koran.

http://religion-cults.com/pope/koran26.jpg

[Asaph]

And what men:sigh: . Heres a picture of the previous pope kissing the koran.

http://religion-cults.com/pope/koran26.jpg

That was sad.

I wanted to try and make a joke about it to try and take the edge off, but it was just sad. :sigh:

Asaph

[Lynn73]

And what men:sigh: . Heres a picture of the previous pope kissing the koran.

http://religion-cults.com/pope/koran26.jpg

It's just mind boggling. The Bible says it's better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man but isn't that just what certain religions are doing? Putting their confidence in men? Am I going to trust that a man is telling me infallible truths when I have God's own word to tell me? Especially a man who kisses a book of a religion that is anti-Christian, bows before crowned statues and wafers? No, I'm not. The whole situation is very tragic but will continue until Christ returns.

[Dark_Lite]

It's just mind boggling. The Bible says it's better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man but isn't that just what certain religions are doing? Putting their confidence in men? Am I going to trust that a man is telling me infallible truths when I have God's own word to tell me? Especially a man who kisses a book of a religion that is anti-Christian, bows before crowned statues and wafers? No, I'm not. The whole situation is very tragic but will continue until Christ returns.

Oh.... The HUMANITY of it all!

*Faints*

[Lynn73]

Whatever.

[Dark_Lite]

Whatever.

Well with things this sad it can cause people to become really stressed and faint you know.

[Asaph]

It's just mind boggling. The Bible says it's better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man but isn't that just what certain religions are doing? Putting their confidence in men? Am I going to trust that a man is telling me infallible truths when I have God's own word to tell me? Especially a man who kisses a book of a religion that is anti-Christian, bows before crowned statues and wafers? No, I'm not. The whole situation is very tragic but will continue until Christ returns.

I wish I could have said he was nearsighted because he was too old to see and all he was really doing was trying to read the title, but a kiss, is a kiss, is a kiss.

I wish I could say he was trying to spit a luggie on the koran and he was so old he got his face real close so as not to miss, but a kiss, is a kiss, is a kiss.


I am a Christian. If I had a koran I would use it for toilet paper. I would then take pictures before I flushed it into the sewer and I would take my own money and pay for a website just to display those pictures.

I AM A CHRISTIAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I make no apology to anyone for it.

Asaph

[WalksWithChrist]

I am a Christian. If I had a koran I would use it for toilet paper. I would then take pictures before I flushed it into the sewer and I would take my own money and pay for a website just to display those pictures.Ewww! Don't get any rashes...

[Rising_Suns]

Now why is Paul's letter on the perpetual virginity of mary missing? Surely the queen of heaven and mother of god would be important enough to get a mention in one of the letters.

Since you have asked a question, I will assume that you would like to know an answer. As such, I will hope that my reply does not encroach on the rules, but merely seek to clarify something that was asked about Catholic teaching.

That being said, the short answer to your question can be found in my signature. Indeed, there is much misinformation and misconceptions about the Catholic view of Mary; some continue to insist that we worship her. We do not. If you would like to learn more, you can always come to OBOB.


Its because this false teaching did not arrive until later.

Another example:

7To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:
Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, were all those in Rome called to be saints people whom Peter had canonized ? Or were they those who had been sanctified by the Blood of Jesus? Are all believers not sanctified?

Notice how Scripture says we are called to be saints, which does not neccessarily mean we are saints yet. Indeed, everyone is called to be a saint, but not everyone heed that call.


KJV - brother.

Matt 12:48-49
48 But He answered and said to the one who told Him, "Who is My mother and who are My brothers?"
NKJV


NT:80
adelphos (ad-el-***'); from NT:1 (as a connective particle) and delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote [much like NT:1]:

KJV - brother

What is interesting about this passage is that Jesus then immediately says that everyone who does the will of the Father are His brothers, sisters, and mothers. Let me ask you; do you think He meant that everyone is biologically related to Him?

And again, please forgive me if I have overstepped my bounds. I am trying to be as polite as possible given the comments that have been made in this thread against my faith.


Blessings,

-Davide

[Rep Daddy]

+++MOD HAT ON++++

Gentle Reminder: Please keep posts civil. You may disagree with and critique other faith traditions but please do so with this in mind...


2.3 You will not post anything that puts down or belittles any Christian group or denomination

[Rep Daddy]

+++ MOD INTRO +++

BTW, I am the newest mod on this forum. I have been a non-denominational pastor for 30 years. Currently, I am a teaching pastor in a non-denominational church in LA (Lousianna).

drstevej

I'll be watchin and getting to know you all...

http://www.drstevej.com/atthebeach.jpg

[New_Found_Faith]

One would think a thread this misinformed belongs in GT :sigh:

[Rep Daddy]

One would think a thread this misinformed belongs in GT :sigh:

MOD HAT

You have a PM. This topic is OK here. Posts need to conform to CF rules and forum rules are followed.

[Asaph]

+++ MOD INTRO +++

BTW, I am the newest mod on this forum. I have been a non-denominational pastor for 30 years. Currently, I am a teaching pastor in a non-denominational church in LA (Lousianna).

drstevej

I'll be watchin and getting to know you all...

http://www.drstevej.com/atthebeach.jpg

Welcome. You know you look sort of like Greg Laurie from out there in California. He pastors a non-denominational church too.

Putting your picture on here kind of shatters an image I had of moderators though. Where's you battleaxe and mace? ;) :D :D

(that's a joke, just a joke...:D )

Asaph

[lismore]

Oh.... The HUMANITY of it all!

*Faints*

Hi there:wave:

I hope you are well

Please understand, there is no offence intended towards yourself or fellow Catholics:hug:

But, for people who are saved by Jesus, by his sacrifice and resurrection and have their trust in him we see this book the Koran, which states that Jesus is not the Son of God and that Christianity is a cult, as a bad book. What does the bible say about future other gospels?

Galations 1: 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!



Now Mohammed got this 'revelation' from an angel. A revelation that undermines our belief and takes away the importance of the central point in History: the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why would a believer want to kiss such an awful book?

Its just beyond comprehension:scratch:

[Rising_Suns]

Hi there:wave:

I hope you are well

Please understand, there is no offence intended towards yourself or fellow Catholics:hug:

But, for people who are saved by Jesus, by his sacrifice and resurrection and have their trust in him we see this book the Koran, which states that Jesus is not the Son of God and that Christianity is a cult, as a bad book. What does the bible say about future other gospels?

Galations 1: 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!



Now Mohammed got this 'revelation' from an angel. A revelation that undermines our belief and takes away the importance of the central point in History: the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Why would a believer want to kiss such an awful book?

Its just beyond comprehension:scratch:

It should be noted here that the pope's infalliblity does not extended to his actions. There have really only been two infallible statements made by popes in the 2,000 year history of the Church (Immaculate Conception and Assumption). So whether you disagree with John Paul II's kissing of the Koran or not is irrelevent to Catholic doctrine.

Also it should be noted that his kissing of the Quran does not mean acceptence of their doctrine. It was more a sign of respect; that is to say, acknolweging that there are small seeds of truth in Islam, and it can be thought of as a stepping stone to Christianity. To say that Islam stands in complete opposition to Christianity I do not think is accurate. Islam is not an anti-Christ. They revere Christ as a great prophet and so they really only need to take that last step towards accepting Him as savior.

I would think the tolerance of such attitudes as using the Quarn as toilet paper (as has been mentoined in this thread) is what should be focussed on first, for such attitudes will surely shun Moslems from conversion to Christianity.

Blessings,

-Davide

[lismore]

It should be noted here that the pope's infalliblity does not extended to his actions. There have really only been two infallible statements made by popes in the 2,000 year history of the Church (Immaculate Conception and Assumption). So whether you disagree with John Paul II's kissing of the Koran or not is irrelevent to Catholic doctrine.


Hi there:wave:

Im not saying anything about Catholic doctrine friend. If your doctrine says kissing the Koran is good then thats your issue friend. Not mine.

No need to be so defensive. Im just saying that mekissing the koran doesnt sit right somehow.:scratch:


Also it should be noted that his kissing of the Quran does not mean acceptence of their doctrine. It was more a sign of respect; that is to say, acknolweging that there are small seeds of truth in Islam, and it can be thought of as a stepping stone to Christianity. To say that Islam stands in complete opposition to Christianity I do not think is accurate. Islam is not an anti-Christ. They revere Christ as a great prophet and so they really only need to take that last step towards accepting Him as savior.



There are no levels of truth friend. There's only right or wrong. Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. If you are not found in him on the day of the lord then ..............its a terrible but true thought.

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the anointed messiah, Christ, King, Saviour and the one who will judge the living and the dead. You cannot pervert the truth and then say you have some of the truth, or a stepping stone to the truth. Why would God want stepping stones or half truths when he has already sent the absolute truth? It s amassive step backwards. No, Islam was sent to confuse, take the glory away from Jesus and is a lie, from the father of all liars.

Lismore:)

[Father Rick]

On Mars Hill, Paul stood up, and pointing to an empty pedestal dedicated to 'The Unknown God', began to quote pagan worshippers "In him we live, and move, and have our being". Paul actually used quotes from pagan worship literature used in pagan worship to show who the one true God really is.

Paul did not 'tear up their book and flush it', rather by showing respect to them as a people he was able to win many to Christ.

What's really funny to me is that a very popular worship chorus a few years back was actually taken from Paul's quote of pagan worship: "In Him we live and move and have our being..."


Acts 17:22-31
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus F408 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F408) and said, "Men of Athens, R1054 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1054) I observe that you are very religious R1055 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1055) in all respects. 23 "For while I was passing through and examining the objects R1056 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1056) of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, `TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you R1057 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1057) worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 "The R1058 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1058) God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord R1059 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1059) of heaven and earth, does not dwell R1060 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1060) in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as R1061 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1061) though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He R1062 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1062) made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined R1063 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1063) their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though R1064 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1064) He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in R1065 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1065) Him we live and move and exist, F409 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F409) as even some of your own poets have said, `For we also are His children.' 29 "Being then the children of God, we ought R1066 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1066) not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 "Therefore having overlooked R1067 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1067) the R1068 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1068) times of ignorance, God is now R1069 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1069) declaring to men that all people everywhere should repent, 31 because He has fixed a R1070 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1070) day in which He R1071 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1071) will judge the R1072 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1072) F410 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F410) world in righteousness through F411 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F411) a Man whom He has appointed, R1073 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1073) having furnished proof to all men by F412 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#F412) raising R1074 (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBible/bible.cgi?passage=ac+17&version=nas&showtools=0#R1074) Him from the dead."

[Collum Cille of Iona]

Greetings:wave:

Your argument falls down on one point unfortunately.

The same chapter, but verse 30!

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

People do not have an excuse to follow false teachings now we have our glorious redeemer! We do not need to kiss false teaching now we have the word made flesh!

Hosanna! Hallelujah! blessed is he who comes in that name!

Its hard to admit.........ahem...............<choke>..........but in that situation..........the pope committed an error..........alas dare I even say............sin.

Slainte Mhath

Collum Cille:preach:





On Mars Hill, Paul stood up, and pointing to an empty pedestal dedicated to 'The Unknown God', began to quote pagan worshippers "In him we live, and move, and have our being". Paul actually used quotes from pagan worship literature used in pagan worship to show who the one true God really is.

Paul did not 'tear up their book and flush it', rather by showing respect to them as a people he was able to win many to Christ.

What's really funny to me is that a very popular worship chorus a few years back was actually taken from Paul's quote of pagan worship: "In Him we live and move and have our being..."

[Dark_Lite]

Hi there:wave:

I hope you are well

Please understand, there is no offence intended towards yourself or fellow Catholics:hug:


Perhaps not from you. However, certain other people in this thread have a minor history...


But, for people who are saved by Jesus, by his sacrifice and resurrection and have their trust in him we see this book the Koran, which states that Jesus is not the Son of God and that Christianity is a cult, as a bad book. What does the bible say about future other gospels?


We're saved by faith in Jesus, at least I hope you think so. The kissing of the Koran was a cultural thing.

[Dark_Lite]

Greetings:wave:

Your argument falls down on one point unfortunately.

The same chapter, but verse 30!

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

People do not have an excuse to follow false teachings now we have our glorious redeemer! We do not need to kiss false teaching now we have the word made flesh!

Hosanna! Hallelujah! blessed is he who comes in that name!

Its hard to admit.........ahem...............<choke>..........but in that situation..........the pope committed an error..........alas dare I even say............sin.

Slainte Mhath

Collum Cille:preach:

And even if he did sin, it still does not matter. The Papal office still retains its functions.

Also, there are some Popes that are very likely in Hell right now (The one that had illegitimate children comes to mind).

[Ceris]

This thread is closed for staff review & cleanup. It will be reopened momentarily.

[Ceris]

Thread Reopened - please keep in mind drstevej's Mod Hat (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=16780727&postcount=78). Thank you.

God Bless,
Ceris

[Rising_Suns]

On Mars Hill, Paul stood up, and pointing to an empty pedestal dedicated to 'The Unknown God', began to quote pagan worshippers "In him we live, and move, and have our being". Paul actually used quotes from pagan worship literature used in pagan worship to show who the one true God really is.

Paul did not 'tear up their book and flush it', rather by showing respect to them as a people he was able to win many to Christ.

What's really funny to me is that a very popular worship chorus a few years back was actually taken from Paul's quote of pagan worship: "In Him we live and move and have our being..."

Another interesting thing to note is that whenever Christ or the Apostles were harsh in their speech, they were usually speaking to their own, not pagans or other non-Christians. Christ's most firm speech was towards His disciples and most of the pharasees.

And in Acts of the Apostles, the Apostles were firm against hypocracy among their fellow brethren. In one passage (Acts 5) there was a couple named Ananias and Sapphira who joined in the communal life of the Apostles, but they kept money for themselves and did not sell their posessions. Peter admonished them and they immediately dropped dead.

I think alot of the focus has been misplaced in Christianity these days. We are so concerned about "evangelizing" when indeed our greatest commandments require us to reform our own hearts, that is; to help our own grow in our love for God and neighbor, which requires us to be accountable for each other. It would seem we have lost alot of this accountability.

Blessings,

-Davide

[lismore]

In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent.

People do not have an excuse to follow false teachings now we have our glorious redeemer! We do not need to kiss false teaching now we have the word made flesh!



Yes.

Once the truth is out of the bag, there is no reason to cling to falsehood.

I think if John Paul had given the Gospel to those Arabs it would have gone better, rather than just reinforcing their anti-Christ beliefs. Bear in mind Mohammed knew the truth- the true gospel- if you read his writings you see he rejected Christ and formulated something similar to the JW religion.

:sigh:

[lismore]

I think alot of the focus has been misplaced in Christianity these days. We are so concerned about "evangelizing" when indeed our greatest commandments require us to reform our own hearts, that is; to help our own grow in our love for God and neighbor, which requires us to be accountable for each other. It would seem we have lost alot of this accountability.

Blessings,

-Davide

Hi Rising:wave:

If ever there was a need for evangilising it is today:

Abortions are on the increase, protestant denominations and catholic countries now have gay marriages, God's people Israel are under pressure from every quarter to give up half of Jerusalem to the forces of Islam, people shout 'peace, peace' where there is no peace, a growing number of people have neve heard of Jesus!

We need less good deeds and more God deeds!

[lismore]

So whether you disagree with John Paul II's kissing of the Koran or not is irrelevent to Catholic doctrine.


This is what the Koran says about you: you should be crucified, your hands cut off.

The Koran says that God has no Son, and anyone who says that God has a son should be murdered.

You can read more on the link below.

Now, I cannot cenceive how anyone would want to kiss this, even to make muslims like you.

033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned [Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have "exiled" rather than "imprisoned"]


http://www.answeringislam.org/Quran...d_passages.html (http://www.answeringislam.org/Quran/Themes/jihad_passages.html)

[Rising_Suns]

This is what the Koran says about you: you should be crucified, your hands cut off.

The Koran says that God has no Son, and anyone who says that God has a son should be murdered.

You can read more on the link below.

Now, I cannot cenceive how anyone would want to kiss this, even to make muslims like you.

033
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned [Pickthall and Yusuf Ali have "exiled" rather than "imprisoned"]


http://www.answeringislam.org/Quran...d_passages.html

I would be carefull about this, Lismore. The Quaran can be taken out of context just like Scripture can be taken out of context;

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and smashes your children against the rocks."--[Psalms 137:9]

A non-christian reading this verse from Scripture might say the same exact things you just said about Islam.

Blessings,

-Davide

[lismore]

What about the bit about God having no son? can that be taken out of context like John 3:16?


I would be carefull about this, Lismore. The Quaran can be taken out of context just like Scripture can be taken out of context;

"How blessed will be the one who seizes and smashes your children against the rocks."--[Psalms 137:9]

A non-christian reading this verse from Scripture might say the same exact things you just said about Islam.

Blessings,

-Davide

[Asaph]

On Mars Hill, Paul stood up, and pointing to an empty pedestal dedicated to 'The Unknown God', began to quote pagan worshippers "In him we live, and move, and have our being". Paul actually used quotes from pagan worship literature used in pagan worship to show who the one true God really is.

Paul did not 'tear up their book and flush it', rather by showing respect to them as a people he was able to win many to Christ.

What's really funny to me is that a very popular worship chorus a few years back was actually taken from Paul's quote of pagan worship: "In Him we live and move and have our being..."

Well, Rick that is your official stance on the matter, but it completely contradicts what I have been taught about that passage, and it contradicts the clear reading of the scripture.

Like many works oriented religions of our own day, the greeks had come to work for so many different gods that they realized that they would be in deep trouble if they had forgotten to work obesience to a god they were unaware of. There is where the idol to the "unknown" god tradition had it's reason, and there is where Paul chose to explain the Truth.

No, Paul did not use devil worship to explain God.

Asaph

[Rising_Suns]

What about the bit about God having no son? can that be taken out of context like John 3:16?

Lismore,
I do not disagree that they deny the divnity of Christ. I believe I already addressed this in my previous post so I will not repeat myself here.

Blessings,

-Davide