Policies of your denomination

[e=mv^2]

I am currently without a church and am having a hard time finding one.

A major problem for me is that there are often denominations that have great doctrine but then have some issue that turns me off. Ordination of women is one issue that just does not sit right with me. This is just one example and is not directed at any specific denomination.

Here is the question:

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?
Ordaining women?
Ordaining Homosexuals?
Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)
Having Icons on the walls?
Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?
Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?
Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?
Having a goat headed idol on the altar?

ok... so the last one I have not actually seen but it is the only one.

At what point am I just being legalistic? Am I just being too picky? Are there things that your denomination does that turns you off but you stay anyway? Should preachers be held to a higher standard?

[twistedsketch]

Ordaining women - as long as they don't teach in the pulpit, that's fine with me. There are plenty of female staff helping out with youth, children's, and women's ministries. And when a missionary/new preacher gets ordained, I believe his wife is up there recieving some sort of ordination as well.

Ordaining Homosexuals - depends. Are they repentant homosexuals who haven't finished fighting all the urges yet, or are they proud and unashamed homosexuals like V. Gene Robinson?

Homosexual women preachers - that should never happen.

Having Icons on the walls - are they used as merely religious art, or are they being used as icons?

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit - depends how it's done. If it's TBN style, no way. But a former senior pastor of mine did an excellent sermon series on marraige, and was later called to do marraige conferences around the country. He wrote a book with all that good stuff in it. I don't remember if he promoted it directly from the pulpit, but it is sold at the church bookstore. I have no problems with it whatsoever.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it - I dunno, it depends on how it is run.

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct - that to me takes away from the concept of tithing.

[TwinCrier]

To me legalism is simply adding to God's command. For example, I feel the bible is clear that modesty is a must. Showing knees is okay but showing thighs and navels cleavage and bra straps is not. None of that is in the bible directly, but this is the standard at which I draw the line. Legalism? Maybe. But if my church starting allowing bikinis in church, I would have to worship elsewhere because it would bother me. Some may argue that it doesn' matter what others where to church, but if it bothers my Spirit, then it is my duty to move on.
Those who say THEY have no problem with a lesbian minister would likly accuse you are being judgmental, a legalist or worse, but God gave us a conscious for a reason. If it feels wrong, it probably is.

Auto-tithe! Wow, that would chase me away.

[LCMS Lutheran]

[QUOTE=e=mv^2]I am currently without a church and am having a hard time finding one.

A major problem for me is that there are often denominations that have great doctrine but then have some issue that turns me off. Ordination of women is one issue that just does not sit right with me. This is just one example and is not directed at any specific denomination.

Here is the question:

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?
Ordaining women?
Ordaining Homosexuals?
Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)
Having Icons on the walls?
Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?
Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?
Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?
Having a goat headed idol on the altar?
QUOTE]

You eliminate a church from consideration when it teaches doctrine that is contradictory to Scripture, or if it simply does not view the Bible as totally Holy and inerrant.
I would consider a Lutheran church for you, a conservative Lutheran church. Something along the lines of the LCMS or the WELS or ELS would be good. No ordination of women or homosexuals, no icons, no solicitation from the pulpit, no McDonald's, and no auto-tithe!!!! Generally speaking, goat heads are frowned upon also. I would like to know what church has a tithe that is required for all members to pay in order to stay in the church. I know the Mormons do this but, then again, they aren't considered Christians by most people.

[kidsminister]

With all due respect, good luck finding the "perfect" church. It doesn't exist.

What about a church where people gossip and backbite? What about a church where people go around stirring up trouble and try to undermine the pastoral staff? What about pride? People in the church who are scrambling to the top for a presigious leadership position and don't care at all about people's feelings?

These things happen in ALL churches, on a regular basis...doesn't matter what denomination!

And to me, the above are more offensive than "auto-tithe" or a fast-food restaurant.

I do draw the line at goat's heads on the altar, though ;) . Which makes me wonder (to end this post on a lighter note): To me, goats - esp. baby goats - are so adorable! Why not pick a more sinister animal to represent "the dark side"?

[jlujan69]

I am currently without a church and am having a hard time finding one.

A major problem for me is that there are often denominations that have great doctrine but then have some issue that turns me off. Ordination of women is one issue that just does not sit right with me. This is just one example and is not directed at any specific denomination.

Here is the question:

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?
Ordaining women? My church has exclusive male leadership. It's not a matter of ability, it's a matter of authority in the family and local church.

Ordaining Homosexuals?
Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)
Under no circumstances. If he's repentened of homosexuality, then he has no business calling himself a homosexual in the first place. If he still considers himself such, then he has no place in ministry.

Having Icons on the walls? My church has flags of the nations of my geographical region where we have fellowship churches.

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit? Unacceptable

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it? Depends



Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?
I believe we're to "bring the tithe into the storehouse".

Having a goat headed idol on the altar? Never heard of it. It seems creepy though. No idol belongs anywhere in the building or on the premises.


ok... so the last one I have not actually seen but it is the only one.

At what point am I just being legalistic? When the Word addresses a matter either directly or in principle and you decide to add to it, then you're being legalistic.
Am I just being too picky? With several of the examples you gave, there's a doctrinal issue to consider. Where you stand is important and shouldn't be put to the side. Try not to get hung up on the peripheral considerations such as: style of architecture, stained glass or not, preacher wearing a robe or suit, et al.

Are there things that your denomination does that turns you off but you stay anyway? Sure, but nothing I consider to be major. If they were major, then I'd leave.

Should preachers be held to a higher standard?

Because of the nature of public ministry, pastors and others in this area of church service do need to be held to a slightly higher standard. However, love and mercy must always be in abundance when addressing behavior and conduct problem areas of the individual worker. Though they're held to a higher standard, they too are fallible and especially need our prayers for a blood hedge around their families and them as they do Kingdom work.

[MrJim]

Auto-tithe? Never heard of it

[HumbleMan]

You're being legalistic when you do it for your glory and not God's.

I would not attend a church that did not believe in the authority and inerrancy of the bible.

I would not attend a church that has a pastor that is better known in his church than Christ.

I would not attend a church that didn't believe in the Great Commission.

I would not attend a marketplace that just happens to have a chapel in it.

[WiredSpirit]

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?

When they discriminate against women, homosexuals, or any minority.

Ordaining women?

Of Course (Here is a link (http://archives.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1090) explaining the UM position on this, its the best I could do.)

Ordaining Homosexuals?

In my church, you have to be a closeted homosexual. They say nothing about having a homosexual relationship, you just can't admit to it. Yeah, I know, the church isn't perfect.

Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)

I'd say there are more of these than homosexual male preachers, but there's no difference in policy and I don't understand why there should be.

Having Icons on the walls?

We have various works of art, stained glass, etc. We don't exactly worship them though.

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?

No, but you may have to buy a book for a elective class at my church, and it may just so happen to be the teachers book.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?

We have a cafeteria where free refreshments are served Sunday morning, meals are served during youth services and at special functions, and occasionally a group from the church holds a dinner that they might charge for. Its sometimes used for fundraisers too.

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?

We don't teach tithing, but you can give via credit card if you want and you can have it set up to take a certain amount every month.

Having a goat headed idol on the altar?

:confused:

Yeah, but I'm not particularly fond of it myself.





This is my first venture into this forum, btw, and I was curious as to what an example of a fundamentalist church or denomination would be. By the definition in that sticky thread, I am not a fundamentalist.

[ethereal hope]

Neat thread. You know, once you eliminate the women's ordination, you're left with only a few denominations and the Catholic church, so that one is a telling baseline. (It surprised me, anyway).

And I thought a decently small church was important because of Hebrew 13:17.

My next "no no" was simple: no rebaptisms required to join. You'd be surprised how many parishes insist on baptising again to "join" their parish. I'm personally really big on the ONE baptism being sufficient, and having nothing to do with joining a denomination.

Here's one that I ended up being GLAD I had on the "would be nice if" list: a creed. Trust me--protect yourself and your future parish, and ensure that the parish's beliefs are spelled out CLEARLY somewhere (and better yet, are repeated as part of the service, like the Apostle's Creed or something.)

Because I ran into some members who professed a [completely!] different Gospel -- that the apostles weren't real people, for starters -- and a potentially ugly situation turned out to be easily averted by pointing to the creeds!

Otherwise, you'll spend more time debating than worshipping, and that's SOOoooo not the point of Church.

(Remember, there are "birds" that nest in every parish, and you may even BE one some weeks, and there's no way to avoid having some of the world in your parish. But a good parish can keep the birds in line, and not let them disturb the workings of the tree/branch.)

[BeforeThereWas]

The OP made mention of the tithe:

It seems to me that most professing believers almost always make their electric bill the higher priority above what they give to their religious organization.

I have no problem with this scenario so far, BUT

giving to meet the necessity needs of fellow believers, in most cases, is a lower priority than what they give to their religious organization.

Doesn't that strike everyone as being like putting the cart before the horse?

BTW

[BeforeThereWas]

Most organizations have a purpose and an objective, and to achieve these objectives, there needs to be procedures and resources. The resources would include money, men and machinery. In the case of religions, the men and machinery combine in the form of missionaries. When we have too many men for the same purpose, a hierarchy sets in, and when we have a hierarchy, there would naturally be division of work and responsibilities. So, as Men of God empower themselves with power and money, all the problems associated with an organization also find their way into the system.

Most organizations are effective and depending upon the will and morale of the people involved, it will deliver the results. If we bother to look around, we find that the best organizations are those with the most effective people on top. What needs to be understood here is that effectiveness and efficiency have nothing much to do with being virtuous. In fact, we find this true most of the time, i.e. the virtuous ones are never the most effective ones. It's this simple fact that makes it dangerous for us to shroud religion with any organizational clothing.

Religion, as a process, has more to do with the human mind than body. Though human beings can be highly deceptive at times in suppressing their thoughts, it's essentially the way one thinks that comes out as action. Religions and true religious leaders have always motivated us to indulge only in noble thoughts and virtuous actions. It's therefore highly imperative that such religious processes always led by virtuous leaders rather than efficient and effective ones. The inevitability of any organizational approach is exactly the opposite of this essential criterion. The moment we combine religion with organization, the latter aspect starts dominating, and ‘unwanted’ elements will always come to the top. All the shameful news (pedophilia, etc.) we hear about within organized religions these days are basically reflections of this unholy amalgamation.

BTW

[colinlindsay]

You've got a good point.
At what point does an aspect of a church make that church become unacceptable.
I don't think it's possible (although some say theirs is doctrinally perfect) to find a pure church.
Maybe there are issues which are non-negotiable. Paul had more problems with the Galations than the Corinthians, I contend.
As for those people who think their chucrh IS doctrinally perfect, what about the practice? It's undoctrinal not to consider others better than yourself. It's undoctrinal to reduce a church to intellectual ascent to correct creeds. What about pride and the love of dispute - pride, the great sin that no-one is ever aware of.
Maybe the Laodicean chucrh was a fundamentalist church that had completely lost its passion. The Ephesian church seemed doctrinally OK but was rebuked for losing its first love.

[holo]

I've worshipped with a high speed junkie while I was tipsy on alcohol myself, so I don't really draw that many lines. I wouldn't be a member of just any church, but I'll worship Jesus with anyone who believes in him. Homosexuality and gender have nothing to do with my relationship with the Lord.

[DiscipleOfIAm]

This post sort of died out awhile back, but I just found this today, so here's my 2 cents.

The perfect church does exist. It is in Heaven. On earth, no. Impossible to find it on earth. So, where do you go? What do you do?

The items you listed to exclude are a good start. If you have a female lead pastor, that's unbiblical. Not so if she is teaching children or other women, etc. You know the verses I'm referring to.

If you have a homosexual pastor, once again, unbiblical. But, that person needs our love and needs to be ministered to, so don't outcast them.

Auto-tithing: I've heard of this, but not sure about it.

Fast food in the church: interesting. I've heard of a coffee shop/breakfast area so families cannot have an excuse to be late for church or so folks can have a chance to fellowship a bit before or after the services. This particular one i'm thinking of was based on a donation type thing. Not a bad idea.

The truth is, you need to listen to where God is leading you. I know from a previous post that you are opposed to legalism, but TwinCrier gave a good example of the biblical backings for certain legalisms.

I think if you rule out the above, you'll still have a good size list to choose from. Meet with the pastor of the church you're interested in attending. Go to the source at the beginning. It will save you time and stress in the end. Be honest, let them know you're searching for where God is leading you and you have a list of questions/concerns about the church and its practices, etc. I don't know too many pastors who would not take time to share with someone about their church. Maybe meet at a neutral location, like a coffee shop or something.

Anyway, good luck in your journey. It is a difficult one, I know from experience.

God Bless!

[Project 86]

Ordaining women - as long as they don't teach in the pulpit, that's fine with me. There are plenty of female staff helping out with youth, children's, and women's ministries. And when a missionary/new preacher gets ordained, I believe his wife is up there recieving some sort of ordination as well.

Ordaining Homosexuals - depends. Are they repentant homosexuals who haven't finished fighting all the urges yet, or are they proud and unashamed homosexuals like V. Gene Robinson?

Homosexual women preachers - that should never happen.

Having Icons on the walls - are they used as merely religious art, or are they being used as icons?

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit - depends how it's done. If it's TBN style, no way. But a former senior pastor of mine did an excellent sermon series on marraige, and was later called to do marraige conferences around the country. He wrote a book with all that good stuff in it. I don't remember if he promoted it directly from the pulpit, but it is sold at the church bookstore. I have no problems with it whatsoever.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it - I dunno, it depends on how it is run.

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct - that to me takes away from the concept of tithing.

What he said.

[e=mv^2]

Preacher selling his book from the pulpit - depends how it's done. If it's TBN style, no way. But a former senior pastor of mine did an excellent sermon series on marraige, and was later called to do marraige conferences around the country. He wrote a book with all that good stuff in it. I don't remember if he promoted it directly from the pulpit, but it is sold at the church bookstore. I have no problems with it whatsoever.

Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it - I dunno, it depends on how it is run.

Make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In my mind selling anything at all inside the church is flat out wrong. That is a BIG issue with me.

[No Swansong]

Make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In my mind selling anything at all inside the church is flat out wrong. That is a BIG issue with me.

e my friend it sounds like you live down the block from me. I have seen all of these things except for the goat's head, but my brother in law at one time was into alot of the really dark Pagan stuff, I'll ask him.

Alot of you have wondered about the auto-tithe. I don't see auto-tithe as necessarily a bad thing as long as it is not mandatory. I actually pay a lot of my bills this way, and although the tithe isn't a bill it is convenient to pay it this way. I know a woman who was a member of World Harvest ( The Church Rod Parsley pastors) who told me that anyone could attend but to be a member you had to allow this. She also said that a one weeks pay check once a year was also required. Now this is of course all hearsay in that I have never attended World Harvest and witnessed this for myself, but she is a very honest lady who is still a member there. As far as I know she has no axe to grind so I believe she is telling me the truth. Are there any WH members out there that could clear this up?

As for finding a church e. I think all of the issues you presented are important. I believe scripture is clear about the authority of men in the church. While I would never turn an active homosexual away at the door (indeed I would welcome) I do consider homosexuality a sin and would not want an unrepentent sinner (of any kind of sin) in a leadership position. (I guess these two sentences covers ordained lesbians) I've already addressed auto-tithe. I have no opinion about a fast-food restaurant although I have never been a member of any church this large and probably would not want to be. Preacher selling from the pulpit is unconscionable in my opinion and should be summarily dismissed.

As a final note, I don't think that being concerned about doctrine is the same as legalism. While some would argue that these are fringe issues, I would not. Most of these issues deal with authority, and who should have it. Scripture is clear about this issue and thus I do believe this to be an important issue in any church and I worry for those church bodies who do not recognize this. Some may call you Pharasaical, others may accuse you of hate, I admire that you are concerned with orthodoxy.

[Albion]

Make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.

In my mind selling anything at all inside the church is flat out wrong. That is a BIG issue with me.

I'm not hostile to your feelings in this matter, but I can't see anything wrong with selling items that relate to worship in that very church. Usually, they are of small cost, anyway, and surely do not constitute a "house of merchandise." My understanding of the money-changers in the temple was that they were a large gathering of merchants selling all manner of stuff (some of it relevant, yes) and making a living off of worshippers coming by. That's a different thing to my mind.

[ContraMundum]

To the OP'er-

Maybe it's time to re-consider what it is you are actually looking for.

Many Christians in this day and age find themselves completely overwhelmed by the religious smorgasbord, and like a food smorgasbord confusion comes from not knowing which items to pick or after picking them, not finding a place to dine.

All the issues you mention are rejected by conservative Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran or Baptist. However, picking one of these may not suit you because of other issues.

You can-
a) Start your own church (not recommended)
or
b) Think about what it is that you want out of a church besides doctrine why you can't find it.
or
c) Re-think your position on doctrines that you currently reject in other conservative Churches and perhaps come at it from a different angle. There's always plenty to learn from those who came before us.

Bless ya!

[Jipsah]

To me, goats - esp. baby goats - are so adorable! Why not pick a more sinister animal to represent "the dark side"? The same thought occured to me just a couple of days ago. My daughter and I were petting little miniature goats at the Tennessee State Fair, and I wondered to myself how such lovable critters ever came to be used as satanical symbols. If I just had a bigger yard, or more tolerant neighbors... ^_^

[Albion]

The same thought occured to me just a couple of days ago. My daughter and I were petting little miniature goats at the Tennessee State Fair, and I wondered to myself how such lovable critters ever came to be used as satanical symbols. If I just had a bigger yard, or more tolerant neighbors... ^_^

Baby anythings are almost always darling.

Have you ever really looked a grown-up goat in the eye up close? Try it, and you'll appreciate the symbolism.

[HumbleMan]

The same thought occured to me just a couple of days ago. My daughter and I were petting little miniature goats at the Tennessee State Fair, and I wondered to myself how such lovable critters ever came to be used as satanical symbols. If I just had a bigger yard, or more tolerant neighbors... ^_^

I think goats got that symbology because they are sort of the opposite of lambs (the Lamb).

[erin74]

I once heard a minister say this:

"If you find the perfect church whatever you do don't join it. You'll only ruin it for the rest of them"

That being said, I would attend a church with a good doctrinal statement that I can see does not detract from the word of God.

The other points seem reasonably valid, but some hard to tell quickly.... eg you're not just going to walk up to the minister the first week and ask if he's a homosexual are you! Same with the idol thing.... hard to tell. We have some stuff in our church, not idols, but practices from 60 years ago when our church was high anglican. Now it is anything but, but some of those less helpful practices haven't quite died out.... each new minister is able to lose a bit more. So does that make it a bad church.... not at all. I would say any church that is on a journey toward evagelicalism is one to support, and attend. It may not be completely there yet, but that's ok too.

That being said there are some things that I would have trouble supporting....

just another thought. The women's teaching thing. Now I don't support it at all, and nor does my dh. However, our church does have women preach a few times a year. So, do we leave. No. Basically we think that the women's preaching issue is not an issue that is central to salvation. So we disagree with our minister on this issue. He's not about to ordain one of them (not that he has that authority). Plus the women in question were convinced (it apparently took a lot of convincing too) by a previous minister that it was ok for them to preach under his authority (erroneous theology I believe). So nor do I think they are being sinful per say. I think that maybe they are still on a path to good theology in this area.

Ultimately it is gospel issues I am most concerned with. I will not divide with another christian over issues that deserve to be on the sideline of christian thinking.

ok.... so i go on a bit.... got me thinking is all!

erin

[Wolfman66]

Well call me a heretic but Im basically easing out of my current church and dont plan to go again - anywhere - ever. Personally I am just tired of all the junk. Just read the posts here. Anyone of you could be or represent the ideals (or lack of) people in the congregation at my church. Im guessing that people dont believe anything anymore and I wonder about the preachers also.
I know it sounds critical but Im just tired of trying to find a place that really cares about God and things that are true.

And now I cringe waiting for the first stone to be thrown at me.

[Albion]

Well call me a heretic but Im basically easing out of my current church and dont plan to go again - anywhere - ever. Personally I am just tired of all the junk. Just read the posts here. Anyone of you could be or represent the ideals (or lack of) people in the congregation at my church. Im guessing that people dont believe anything anymore and I wonder about the preachers also.
I know it sounds critical but Im just tired of trying to find a place that really cares about God and things that are true.

And now I cringe waiting for the first stone to be thrown at me.

On the contrary, you are following a well-worn path and one that is increasingly common. Keep your powder dry on the idea of a congregation to join...and keep your own faith if and while you are not affiliated.

[HumbleMan]

Well call me a heretic but Im basically easing out of my current church and dont plan to go again - anywhere - ever. Personally I am just tired of all the junk. Just read the posts here. Anyone of you could be or represent the ideals (or lack of) people in the congregation at my church. Im guessing that people dont believe anything anymore and I wonder about the preachers also.
I know it sounds critical but Im just tired of trying to find a place that really cares about God and things that are true.

And now I cringe waiting for the first stone to be thrown at me.

Well, brother, the stone can bouce off me first. While Paul told us to not forsake fellowship, we are also told to seek His kingdom first. Sometimes we have to be alone in the wilderness to find it. Keep praying, and keep your heart in a place where God can touch it, and He'll find you a place.

[Ohiomom2]

To the OP'er-

Maybe it's time to re-consider what it is you are actually looking for.

Many Christians in this day and age find themselves completely overwhelmed by the religious smorgasbord, and like a food smorgasbord confusion comes from not knowing which items to pick or after picking them, not finding a place to dine.

All the issues you mention are rejected by conservative Christians, be they Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran or Baptist. However, picking one of these may not suit you because of other issues.

You can-
a) Start your own church (not recommended)
or
b) Think about what it is that you want out of a church besides doctrine why you can't find it.
or
c) Re-think your position on doctrines that you currently reject in other conservative Churches and perhaps come at it from a different angle. There's always plenty to learn from those who came before us.

Bless ya!

May I ask why starting your own church is not recommended (by you at least). There are many home churches cropping up because of all the wishy washy believers and ministers. Home churchers are usually those who belive in modesty of dress, no women/homosexual pastors, men as the head, all the things that the original poster is looking for. Since most church's put most if not all of their faith in their man made (some do use Biblical doctrines) doctrines this is important to look at before joining (I don't like that either, but different subject) any church. This is why I won't 'join' the Catholic church or have my children baptized as infants. Why would the poster want to rethink the way they believe. I won't put aside my beliefs just because a church thinks I am wrong. I get many looks when I visit a church whose women remain uncovered, cut hair and don't mind wearing tank tops and pants/shorts because I feel that for me and my daughters I must cover my hair, leave our hair uncut and dress modestly. I don't expect them to just adopt my beliefs, but I do pray that they study Scripture and let the Lord work on their hearts and minds. So I wouldn't expect my beliefs that are convictions from the Lord to change just because the church follows what they deem acceptable. Sorry if I misunderstood your post feel free to correct me, but from what you wrote this is how I interpreted it.

[ContraMundum]

May I ask why starting your own church is not recommended (by you at least).

I don't believe anyone has the authority to do so. I believe the church is visible, continuous and identified historically by unity in mission and ministry.

I understand your concerns about the heterodoxy in churches all over the world, but forming your own will not solve that problem, but ultimately (if history has any lessons for us to learn) will merely add to it.

St Jerome compared the church to the Ark of Noah, and said that if wasn't for the storm outside, you couldn't stand the stench inside.

[e=mv^2]

Maybe it's time to re-consider what it is you are actually looking for.
You are quite right. I am in the process of that now.

May I ask why starting your own church is not recommended (by you at least).
I do not want the gospel according to e. I do not want Jimmy Bob Johnston's plan of salvation. I want the real thing.

Home churches are a way of saying:
"Everyone else is wrong. I have it right and if you do not like it then go away". It is the #1 easiest way to fall into heresy. In fact - it would be the literal definition of heresy. MY way.

There are many home churches cropping up because of all the wishy washy believers and ministers.
They also crop up to have homosexual churches. Or ones that think that that everyone will be saved. Those that teach backsliding or once saved always saved or whatever *they* are comfortable with. There is a way that seems right to a man. That way leads to the pit.

Home churchers are usually those who belive in modesty of dress, no women/homosexual pastors, men as the head, all the things that the original poster is looking for.
Possibly - what exactly would prevent someone from going along just fine for 5-9 years then deciding to serve kool-aid so they can all be with the aliens?

Since most church's put most if not all of their faith in their man made (some do use Biblical doctrines) doctrines this is important to look at before joining (I don't like that either, but different subject) any church.
Agreed - what doctrines would a home church have?

Koresh started a home church. His ended poorly.

Why would the poster want to rethink the way they believe.
Because I have been prideful and have been looking for a church that fits my beliefs. This is a major problem. What I need to do is to find a church that has right beliefs and confrm myself to the truth. The truth is the truth. It is true for those that think it is false and for those that think it is true. My opinion does not affect the truth.

I won't put aside my beliefs just because a church thinks I am wrong.
But what if you are wrong on something? Is this not what I have complained about?

People get ideas and then split. They make Christianity fit them. Do you realize how many different viewpoints/denominations are out there? Which one is right? The truth is that on some level they are all wrong. Someone at some point decided that they were right and they broke off and made another gospel. Then someone else came along and decided that that person was obviously wrong and did the same thing.

I do not want Christianity to fit me. I want to fit it. I want Christianity uncut, unfiltered and distilled and then I want to conform myself to it.

[erin74]

I think the other thing we need to think about when looking for a church is are we looking to serve or to be served. It seems to me that a lot of people think of church like they would a shopping centre, or a school - what's in it for me. Which church offers me the most.

While there has to be some level of this thinking, really I think the biblical attitude had far more to do with being part of a body, and serving your fellow believer. Hebrews does not warn against not meeting together simply so that "I" won't fall away, but so "WE" won't fall away. So your church may have some bad practices - stay there and work at fixing them. Continue to use sites like this to build yourself up, or meet in some way (physically, over the phone, internet) with other likeminded christian/s so as to ensure you are adequately cared for, and built up so that you in turn can do the same. Meet to pray and study the scriptures. What a difference that kind of attitude can make. What a witness to be able to say - yeah we disagree on x, but we agree that Christ died for all, and so we work together at saving others.

Don't hear me wrong, there are some issues worth dividing on. Anything that challenges the centrality of the cross to salvation I wouldn't go near.....

enough raving from me

erin

[Ohiomom2]

You are quite right. I am in the process of that now.


I do not want the gospel according to e. I do not want Jimmy Bob Johnston's plan of salvation. I want the real thing.

I don't want that either, I follow the plan that is outlined in the Bible. If everyone did this and relied only upon the Bible instead of someone's man-made doctrines we wouldn't have a problem with division.

Home churches are a way of saying:
"Everyone else is wrong. I have it right and if you do not like it then go away". It is the #1 easiest way to fall into heresy. In fact - it would be the literal definition of heresy. MY way.

I am sorry but I feel you are wrong. I know of several who homechurch and they do not tell me I am wrong and they are right. I don't feel if we were to homechurch we would be commiting heresy, we would follow the Bible and what it's guidelines are as should everyone.


They also crop up to have homosexual churches. Or ones that think that that everyone will be saved. Those that teach backsliding or once saved always saved or whatever *they* are comfortable with. There is a way that seems right to a man. That way leads to the pit.

I would like to know where you have found that to be true of homosexuals in the home church. I believe we can all backslide and that once we come repentitly to Christ and ask for forgiveness He will give it. I feel that my way is not man's way, I follow what the Bible says.


Possibly - what exactly would prevent someone from going along just fine for 5-9 years then deciding to serve kool-aid so they can all be with the aliens?



Agreed - what doctrines would a home church have?

I am enclosing a link that mostly sums up my beliefs http://www.charityministries.org/confession.cfm This is their confession of faith but for me follows what the Bible has stated.


Koresh started a home church. His ended poorly.


Because I have been prideful and have been looking for a church that fits my beliefs. This is a major problem. What I need to do is to find a church that has right beliefs and confrm myself to the truth. The truth is the truth. It is true for those that think it is false and for those that think it is true. My opinion does not affect the truth.

But what if your opinions go against what is set in the Bible by Christ? Would it then be wrong?


But what if you are wrong on something? Is this not what I have complained about?

(I am not by any means saying I am perfect, although someone will more than likely make that accusation or that I am not wrong) I am following the Bible, if it says women should have their heads covered I do it, it says we should dress modestly and not in costly array I follow it, men are the heads I follow it, women should remain quiet I follow it with the exception of singing hymns (I haven't been convicted of yet on that), etc. So am I wrong for taking the Bible for what it says and listening to the Lord convict me? I would rather take it literally than realize to late that I made a mistake. Second of all, who can tell me I am wrong, would that not be passing judgement?

People get ideas and then split. They make Christianity fit them. Do you realize how many different viewpoints/denominations are out there? Which one is right? The truth is that on some level they are all wrong. Someone at some point decided that they were right and they broke off and made another gospel. Then someone else came along and decided that that person was obviously wrong and did the same thing.

Yes I do realize how many denoms and it is sad. The apostle's were called Christians in the Bible and while the term Catholic was used it meant "one" it didn't give permission for men to make laws and omit Scripture or add to. I don't believe in adding or taking from Scripture as that is also in the Bible as a grave sin. If all denoms could read the Bible for what is there and understand it for what it is then I don't think there would be all this problems that have arisen from different denoms. Feminism changed what God originally put forth as the plan for the family and other denoms have taken from it by following the liberal viewpoints or saying Scripture can't possibly be put in use for today since it was written so long ago.

I do not want Christianity to fit me. I want to fit it. I want Christianity uncut, unfiltered and distilled and then I want to conform myself to it.

I would then say read the Bible and understand it for what is written by inspiration of God and then live it. (my responses are in blue, sorry for any confusion)

[e=mv^2]

I am following the Bible, if it says women should have their heads covered I do it, it says we should dress modestly and not in costly array I follow it, men are the heads I follow it, women should remain quiet I follow it with the exception of singing hymns (I haven't been convicted of yet on that), etc. So am I wrong for taking the Bible for what it says and listening to the Lord convict me? I would rather take it literally than realize to late that I made a mistake. Second of all, who can tell me I am wrong, would that not be passing judgement?
That was not intended to be critical of you. That was to be critical of ME.

Example:
Baptism
Baptist view: Only baptize adults by immersion
Methodist view: Baptize infants by sprinkling

There are 3 possible truths here.

1 - Both are wrong
2 - The Methodists are right
3 - The Baptists are right

So your best possible situation here is that one is right ang the other wrong.

Communion:
Symbolic - actualy blood and body

Again - best possible situation is that one is right and the other wrong.

Now we get into a situation where we have multiple doctrines mixed up between no less than 2000 denominations.

But what if your opinions go against what is set in the Bible by Christ? Would it then be wrong?
Yes. Exactly. But if I was fervent enough in my wrongness and could convince enough people to follow me then I could set up my own denomiation.

I am enclosing a link that mostly sums up my beliefs http://www.charityministries.org/confession.cfm This is their confession of faith but for me follows what the Bible has stated.
Lets have a look. Remember - you asked for it.



9. THE KINGDOM OF GOD: We believe and confess that the kingdom of God, or Christ, is a spiritual kingdom of the world. In the Sermon on the Mount, Christ presented a higher standard of holiness for His kingdom. Citizenship in the kingdom, therefore:








Prevents participation in the affairs of state, serving in armed forces, and belonging to state-regulated churches. Matt. 6:33; II Cor. 6:14-18; II Cor. 10:3, 4.
Further separates us from the course of this world in affection, occupation, and organizational yokes and affiliations. Matt. 6:19-21, 24; Rom. 12:1, 2; Col. 3:1-3.
Enjoins returning good for evil, praying for persecutors, feeding and clothing the needy, and doing good to all men, including enemies. Matt. 5:38-48; Rom. 12:14-21; I Thess. 5:15.
Forbids speaking evil of ANYONE, resisting evil or taking vengeance, suing at the law, or in any way demanding personal rights. Matt. 5:39,40; John 18:36; I Cor. 6:1-8; Titus 3:2; I Peter 2:18-20.
Requires the non-swearing oaths, “Yea, Yea and Nay, Nay” honestly, and absence of idle words in speech. Matt. 5:33-37; Matt. 12:35-37; James 5:12.
Enjoins an explicit trust in God for material and spiritual maintenance.
Trusting in the arm of flesh or human securities is a violation of faith in Divine preservation. Matt. 6:25-34; Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 12:32, 33; Phil. 4:6, 19; I Peter 5:7.

You just excluded all of our fighting men and women from the kingdom of God.
You just excluded all Lawyers.
You just excluded all Judges.
You just excluded all Presidents, Congressmen, Governors and Mayors.

You did it based on this:
Mat 6:33
(33) But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness; and all these things shall be added to you.


2Co 6:14-18
(14) Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers; for what fellowship does righteousness have with lawlessness? And what partnership does light have with darkness?
(15) And what agreement does Christ have with Belial? Or what part does a believer have with an unbeliever?
(16) And what agreement does a temple of God have with idols? For you are the temple of the living God, as God has said, "I will dwell in them and walk among them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."
(17) Therefore come out from among them and be separated, says the Lord, and do not touch the unclean thing. And I will receive you
(18) and I will be a Father to you, and you shall be My sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.


2Co 10:3-4
(3) For though walking about in flesh, we do not war according to flesh.
(4) For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds,



One verse here that discusses weapons and warfare and guess what? IT is utterly IRRELEVANT.
Lets look at the verse in Context

2Co 10:1-18
(1) And I myself, Paul, beseech you by the meekness and gentleness of Christ; I, who indeed to look upon am lowly among you, but being absent am bold toward you.
(2) But I ask, not being present, that I may be bold with the confidence which I think to be daring against some, who thought of us as walking according to flesh.
(3) For though walking about in flesh, we do not war according to flesh.
(4) For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds,
(5) pulling down imaginations and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought into the obedience of Christ;
(6) and having readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
(7) Do you look at things according to appearance? If anyone has persuaded himself that he is Christ's, let him think this again as to himself, that as he is Christ's, even so we are Christ's.
(8) For even if I also should boast somewhat more fully of our authority (which the Lord has given us for building up, and not for pulling you down) I will not be put to shame;
(9) so that I might not seem to terrify you by letters.
(10) For indeed they say, the letters are weighty and powerful, but the bodily presence is weak, and his speech is contemptible.
(11) Let such a one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters, being absent, such we will be also in deed when we are present.
(12) For we do not dare to rank or compare ourselves with some of the ones commending themselves. But they, measuring themselves among themselves, and comparing themselves to themselves, are not perceptive.
(13) But we will not boast beyond measure, but according to the measure of the rule which the God of measure distributed to us, to reach even to you.
(14) For we do not overstretch ourselves as though not reaching to you. For we also came to you in the gospel of Christ;
(15) not boasting beyond measure in the labors of others, but having hope that the growing faith among you will be increased according to our rule, to overflowing;
(16) to preach the gospel in that beyond you, and not to boast in another's rule in things made ready.
(17) But he who glories, let him glory in the Lord.
(18) For not he who commends himself is approved, but he whom the Lord commends.


Please tell me on what basis you have excluded:
participation in the affairs of state, serving in armed forces, and belonging to state-regulated churches.
based on that text.

Someone somewhere has decided that it is not ok to be in the military and is MAKING UP RULES. Remember King David? Solomon? Guess what? Heads of State. Remember all the battles they Jews won? They did not do that without a military.

Further, the Bible forbids following the changing fashions of the world.

Wearing a toga are you? Did not think so.

They base this on:
Rom 12:2
(2) And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

See a fashion statement there? Maybe they are discussing your MIND here?

1Th 5:22
(22) Abstain from every appearance of evil.

Fashion?

*** 2:11-12
(11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
(12) teaching us that having denied ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live discreetly, righteously and godly, in this present world,

Still waiting on a declaration about fashion.

and lastly:
1Pe 1:14
(14) as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance,

You must be kidding.

Tell me again why it is that we are forbidden from:
following the changing fashions of the world.

Utter nonsense.
This is legalism at its finest. Someone has decided on the proper interpretation. Someone has invented tradition.

More:
18. MARRIAGE: We believe and confess that marriage is an institution ordained of God. It was set apart, or sanctified, in the creation. It was set forth by God for the propagation of the human race, for the purity of the human family, and for the bringing up of godly children. Gen. 1:14; Gen. 2:24; Heb. 13:4.
God recognizes all first marriages where vows have been made and the marriage consummated. In God’s eyes only death can break the marriage covenant.
We further believe that God forbids divorce or marriages with divorced persons having former companions still living. Marriage by or with such persons is the forming of an adulterous relationship. We admonish all to scriptural meditation on this subject. Matt. 19: 8, 9; Mark 10:11, 12; Rom. 7: 2, 3; I Cor. 7:39


What of the exception that Christ himself gave?
Your text reads:
In God’s eyes only death can break the marriage covenant.
FALSE TEACHING.

All property is held in stewardship as God’s. There is a conscious effort made to discern the needs of others and to share to the point of an equality of living standard. The Bible warns of the danger of accumulating riches and therefore demands distribution according to ability. Matt. 5:42; Matt. 6:19-21; Luke 12:33; Acts 20:35; Rom. 15:26; I Cor. 16:1-3; II Cor. 8:11-15; I Tim. 6:17-19; Heb. 13:16; I John 3:16, 17.
Your preacher just gave himself permission to give your car to someone else. Your table to another person. Whatever the property is - your preacher has control over it, not you.

You have just proven my point better than I ever could have. I have soundly demonstrated the heresy within your own system.


Second of all, who can tell me I am wrong, would that not be passing judgement?
Come on now - at some point we all have to look at doctrine and make a judgement. The judgement is on the doctrine - not the human.

If all denoms could read the Bible for what is there and understand it for what it is then I don't think there would be all this problems that have arisen from different denoms.


What if just one could read it properly? Just one? From what I am seeing - no two of them can come to the same conclusions.

[maria767]

I believe these should apply to all Christians.


Matthew15 "9": But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.


"17": And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Revelations 12 "17": And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ

Reve;ations 14 "12": Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


Rev. 22 "14": Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


1John 2 "4": He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Maria

[holo]

And what are His commandments? Will we make it if we keep the ten?

[Ohiomom2]

That was not intended to be critical of you. That was to be critical of ME.

Example:
Baptism
Baptist view: Only baptize adults by immersion
Methodist view: Baptize infants by sprinkling

There are 3 possible truths here.

1 - Both are wrong
2 - The Methodists are right
3 - The Baptists are right

So your best possible situation here is that one is right ang the other wrong.

Communion:
Symbolic - actualy blood and body

Again - best possible situation is that one is right and the other wrong.

Now we get into a situation where we have multiple doctrines mixed up between no less than 2000 denominations.


Yes. Exactly. But if I was fervent enough in my wrongness and could convince enough people to follow me then I could set up my own denomiation.


Lets have a look. Remember - you asked for it.




You just excluded all of our fighting men and women from the kingdom of God.
You just excluded all Lawyers.
You just excluded all Judges.
You just excluded all Presidents, Congressmen, Governors and Mayors.

You did it based on this:


One verse here that discusses weapons and warfare and guess what? IT is utterly IRRELEVANT.
Lets look at the verse in Context



Please tell me on what basis you have excluded:

based on that text.

Someone somewhere has decided that it is not ok to be in the military and is MAKING UP RULES. Remember King David? Solomon? Guess what? Heads of State. Remember all the battles they Jews won? They did not do that without a military.



Wearing a toga are you? Did not think so.

They base this on:

See a fashion statement there? Maybe they are discussing your MIND here?


Fashion?


Still waiting on a declaration about fashion.

and lastly:

You must be kidding.

Tell me again why it is that we are forbidden from:


Utter nonsense.
This is legalism at its finest. Someone has decided on the proper interpretation. Someone has invented tradition.

More:

What of the exception that Christ himself gave?
Your text reads:

FALSE TEACHING.


Your preacher just gave himself permission to give your car to someone else. Your table to another person. Whatever the property is - your preacher has control over it, not you.

You have just proven my point better than I ever could have. I have soundly demonstrated the heresy within your own system.



Come on now - at some point we all have to look at doctrine and make a judgement. The judgement is on the doctrine - not the human.




What if just one could read it properly? Just one? From what I am seeing - no two of them can come to the same conclusions.

Unfortunately I do not have the time to answers all your conclusions on these teachings. I believe I did say I did not agree with all that was written and I did not specify which ones. I am a veteran of the US Navy and I come from a long line of military persons, so no I don't think I am or anyone is excluded. This is something I have not been convicted on, although if my daughters came to me saying they want to join up I would pray that God would have them change their minds. Anyway I think that most of what is said come directly from scripture and is taken literally. I am also unsure of how you can deem certain Scripture irrelevant. That is the problem with most churches today they deem most if not all of Scripture irrelevant for our culture. Also I am starting to feel uncomfortable 'teaching/preaching' to a man, so I am going to conclude my thoughts and feelings with this, in following with Scripture. I will assume that we will have to agree to disagree.
God bless you on your search.

[e=mv^2]

Unfortunately I do not have the time to answers all your conclusions on these teachings.

No problem - you do recognize that they are my conclusions tho.


I believe I did say I did not agree with all that was written and I did not specify which ones.

Rereading that it may seem that I was overly critical of you personally. That was not my intention. I intended to be critical of the topic not the person. I am afraid I am still not very good at that.

I am a veteran of the US Navy and I come from a long line of military persons, so no I don't think I am or anyone is excluded.

Rephrase:
Your pastor has excluded you and your family at least during the period of time that you served. Do you feel that your service was sin? Should service be forbidden?

This is something I have not been convicted on, although if my daughters came to me saying they want to join up I would pray that God would have them change their minds.

I would wager that your parents did the same.


Anyway I think that most of what is said come directly from scripture and is taken literally.

Read the scriptures that he is quoting. The ones regarding military service and current clothing fashion were baseless and off topic.

I am also unsure of how you can deem certain Scripture irrelevant.

Irrelevant to the topic at hand. Offtopic. Not applicable to the point that the preacher was attempting to prove.

That is the problem with most churches today they deem most if not all of Scripture irrelevant for our culture.

If I tell you that you should never again eat pork and base that on 1 Peter 1:8 what would you tell me?

Also I am starting to feel uncomfortable 'teaching/preaching' to a man, so I am going to conclude my thoughts and feelings with this, in following with Scripture.

We can have a discussion without teaching or preaching. I do not feel that you have crossed the line at all. Your discussion has been great.

I will assume that we will have to agree to disagree.
Thank goodness we agree on more than we disagre.
God bless you on your search.
Thank you and God bless you too.

[Shipwreck]

At what point do you eliminate a church from consideration?

That is a matter of personal preference hence your list



Ordaining women?

We have "ordained" female pastors if that's what you want to call them however their role does not lend them to a leadership or instructional type function. They are more or less facilitators.


Ordaining Homosexuals?

No


Homosexual women preachers? (double whammy there)

No


Having Icons on the walls?

There is only a painting of Jesus in our church


Preacher selling his book from the pulpit?

No


Church having a fast food restaraunt inside it?

No

Church having "Auto tithe" directly wired from your bank acct?

No


Having a goat headed idol on the altar?

No


Are there things that your denomination does that turns you off but you stay anyway?

No

Should preachers be held to a higher standard?

They can try but only one is perfect