Ministry vs. Renovation

[KagomeShuko]

I find that St. Paul has a huge problem in this area. People want the church to grow, but they don't put any emphasis on the ministry aspect of things and then they expect results. This really bugs me.

They don't care about bringing the youth into church (and I'm definitely watching a dying church here. . .six and eight and then nineteen, or is she twenty, and can be considered one of the leaders along with me) is not focusing on youth. Okay, we have three that are "youth," but they don't do anything except SOMETIMES come to church with their parents.

So, as I try to do ministry for ANY and ALL ages, I'm constantly told that I'm "overstepping my bounds of ministry" (doing education for people as the VOLUNTEER head of education is "overstepping"?) and then all I hear about are these renovation projects. They decided to renovate the kitchen. I didn't find that necessary for the church. It's not going to attract people. The kitchen is inside and doesn't draw attention. Plus, they had already bought a dishwasher. Did they really need to redo the whole kitchen? It does look nice, but that's not a big deal.

People even complained because they were so worried about a luncheon on the day that the Red Cross called my home and my mom and I went to open the church as a shelter for the people who had no home because of a fire.
Yes, they COMPLAINED about a church being a shelter and I was very angry about such. Then, the OTHERS took credit for "being there" and "serving" when what they did was "stand around" and didn't even care that my mom and I were the ones who were truly there to help.

Do you find your church or churches in your area have the same problem?

I'm tired of this problem, and it's lasted for years on end. It never seems that it'll go away.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[AngelusSax]

We were having some attraction problems, but then we got us one of those "wacky liberal (that's an eye of the beholder thing, really) optimist" pastors and now we're starting to attract more people with more evangelism (not to be confused with the psuedo-evangelism of some ministries of "You're hellbound, but come here and we'll fix you!").

Anyway, sometimes all that needs to change is the leadership. Not necessarily ALL the leadership, but one person steps up and takes charge with new ideas and whatnot.

All I can say is that sometimes, growth needs to happen through and despite the old-line-thinking people grumbling.

[RedneckAnglican]

new ideas...find out what works with other Churches and do that...as the old saying goes, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permisson"...

[SPALATIN]

new ideas...find out what works with other Churches and do that...as the old saying goes, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permisson"...

Funny isn't that how the Church growth movement started?:scratch:

[AngelusSax]

new ideas...find out what works with other Churches and do that...as the old saying goes, "It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permisson"...

And unfortunately, many churches offer neither of those... Sad, considering forgiveness is a command and all.... (God forgives and forgets perfectly, and we're told to be imitators of God... so... yeah).

Funny isn't that how the Church growth movement started?:scratch:

A Church getting more people to believe in Jesus than turning people away because they're too heathenistic... what a novel idea!

[GreekWeasel]

A Church getting more people to believe in Jesus than turning people away because they're too heathenistic... what a novel idea!


The "Church Growth Movement" isn't about getting people to believe in Jesus, but rather getting bodies in the pews on Sunday morning. Case and point is Willow Creek. Thousands of people sit in the pews on Sunday morning (think of the tithes and offerings there!), but very little (if anything) is said about Jesus. In one of our classes we did a theological analysis of one of their Sunday "services". It's basically a "feel good seminar."

BTW, their "real" members worship on Thursday evenings. That service more closely resembles a church service.


GW

[RedneckAnglican]

pardon my ignorance but what is the "Church Growth movement"?...I don't see anything wrong with wanting more folks in the pews...so long as you don't have to compromise the Word to do it...

[GlowingFirefly]

I find that St. Paul has a huge problem in this area. People want the church to grow, but they don't put any emphasis on the ministry aspect of things and then they expect results. This really bugs me.

They don't care about bringing the youth into church (and I'm definitely watching a dying church here. . .six and eight and then nineteen, or is she twenty, and can be considered one of the leaders along with me) is not focusing on youth. Okay, we have three that are "youth," but they don't do anything except SOMETIMES come to church with their parents.

So, as I try to do ministry for ANY and ALL ages, I'm constantly told that I'm "overstepping my bounds of ministry" (doing education for people as the VOLUNTEER head of education is "overstepping"?) and then all I hear about are these renovation projects. They decided to renovate the kitchen. I didn't find that necessary for the church. It's not going to attract people. The kitchen is inside and doesn't draw attention. Plus, they had already bought a dishwasher. Did they really need to redo the whole kitchen? It does look nice, but that's not a big deal.

People even complained because they were so worried about a luncheon on the day that the Red Cross called my home and my mom and I went to open the church as a shelter for the people who had no home because of a fire.
Yes, they COMPLAINED about a church being a shelter and I was very angry about such. Then, the OTHERS took credit for "being there" and "serving" when what they did was "stand around" and didn't even care that my mom and I were the ones who were truly there to help.

Do you find your church or churches in your area have the same problem?

I'm tired of this problem, and it's lasted for years on end. It never seems that it'll go away.

Stein Auf!
Bridget


You go to a St. Paul's Lutheran Church right?

I think I told you I go to one too, and I'm surprised your church is like that.

Personally, my church is right now heading towards it's 100th anniversary in 2006, and my congreation and Pastor are always open to more ideas. In fact, many months back we just finished something called "Vision for Mission."

See my Pastor is very open to new ideas for the church. Vision for Mission was a way for the congreagation to decide and think about what the Vision for the church was, and then what the Mission of the church was. Both youth and adults of the congreations met in meetings once a week to discuss what they wanted to see happen in the church; what changes they wanted to see. The youth and adults met up with the church council and talked over their ideas. As far as I know, many ideas were good and passed through council. Some didn't but most did. And I think in 2006 when my church has it's 100th anniversary, the changes to the church will begin during that entire year of celebration.

Perhaps you could suggest to your council to organize something like this?

But I certainly know what you mean by losing the youth too.

See, I had an assistant Pastor in the church for about two years. She mostly worked with the youth. Don't get me wrong, she was a good Pastor, very friendly and loved God, but she just couldn't work with the youth. And after talking with my youth group friends about it, we've come to the conclusion she was the reason why most of the youth stopped going to church. I haven't seen some of my youth group in ages.

To be honest, my friend and I are pretty much the ONLY active high school youth group members that are active in my church. Everyone else pretty much just left.

We don't really have an organized high school youth group. When I first came to my church three years ago, there was so many active teenagers, now there are two. Now that my assistant Pastor left last winter, we are doing our best to try and get more high school youth to come back. It's hard though. They always give excuses not to go like "there is nothing to do there," and "No one else is going!" And the ever popular "church is boring." Which I hear a lot from my youth group.

It really makes me mad. But now that my friend and I graduated high school this month, we are just hoping that our Pastor can figure out some way to bring high school youth back together in my church. I guess the problem is that he has tried a lot of things but nothing ever works. He doesn't know what else to try and the high school youth leaders are getting frustrated. We have more youth leaders than students. :(

I would though try talking with people and see what they want to see in the church, what changes they would like to see. And ask around as to ways to help bring youth back.

[Protoevangel]

pardon my ignorance but what is the "Church Growth movement"?...I don't see anything wrong with wanting more folks in the pews...so long as you don't have to compromise the Word to do it...
It is simply a marketing approach to increasing membership. That is its strength and its weakness. It gets more bodies in, but it often does compromise the Word to do so. That compromise is not the essence of the movement, but all too often, that is exactly what developes from it.

Could it be used responsibly? Probably. Seeing the fruits of it, though, has the tendency to turn off those who truly take the Word as inviolable.

[KagomeShuko]

"Vision for Mission."

Perhaps you could suggest to your council to organize something like this?

I would though try talking with people and see what they want to see in the church, what changes they would like to see. And ask around as to ways to help bring youth back.

I've talked about this, tried to get them to see what they are doing. We've done things like "Vision for Mission." I'm the head of education, so that means I'm in a council meeting at least once a month.

How do you get people who don't care to care? The "vision" is always renovations of some sort. I mean, all I hear about is the kitchen, the fact that they want a playground (okay, that one MIGHT help), and that they want to pain the fellowship hall.

The Interim pastor we had apparently really didn't care about the youth. . she just seemd to ok things to perhaps "appease" me. Once she left, I found a lot more about what she would really say and do. I feel really betrayed by her now.

The one person that is the evangelism chair sometimes gets into the whole trying to reach out to the community and sometimes the council president gets into that, too. However, most don't seem to care. I know that property is going to focus on property. That's obvious. But property tends to become the main focus. There's stewardship and nurture amd don't seem to focus on anything but some in church activities and the renovations, too.

The vision? Who knows? We're currently working for a shared pastor with a church in Orange, TX. I don't even know what they put for their "vision" and they say that the profiles of the churches match. . .which, to me, says, there's really nothing happening at EITHER of them. . .and that NEITHER care all that much and just want a pastor.

It gets really frustrating. No matter what I bring up that perhaps we should focus on ministry, they act like I'm just this little girl who doesn't know anything. They insist on doing the opposite things.

Even when we did have the concert by Lost And Found, it was almost not done. . .my mom had to tell them again that IF they did promotion, it'd be a good thing. . .guess what others didn't do.

I get the feeling that most everybody there are simply "Sunday Christians." It's really disturbing.

We once had a great pastor, but she accepted a call to some churches in Fayetteville/Brenham, TX area and shes' serving in a shared minsitry now.

Things died down once she left. .and you see, she was good with the youth. People got mad because of how the person who was president of the council at that time treated her. And, yes, it was very unfair and very rude what he did. We had a good size church and it seems many of the hypocrites stayed and those who really did care left.

I'm still friends with one of the people who left and their family was a huge part of the ministry that actually did outreach and helped. We both see the terrible things that have gone wrong in that church.. .and they don't seem to be ending whatsoever.

The thing for me is that it is the ONLY ELCA church for a good 30 miles.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[ottaia]

I tend to agree with Spong on his view of "established" denominations. He says the established churches have been around for hundreds of years because they are doing the right thing. The fundamentalist/Pentecostal churchs have only been around for about 100 years. He considers them a flash in the pan. I think he is right. We may be feeling a lull, but I believe it is not permanent. We have what people need to hear, we just need to stick to it.

[Protoevangel]

I tend to agree with Spong on his view of "established" denominations. He says the established churches have been around for hundreds of years because they are doing the right thing. The fundamentalist/Pentecostal churchs have only been around for about 100 years. He considers them a flash in the pan. I think he is right. We may be feeling a lull, but I believe it is not permanent. We have what people need to hear, we just need to stick to it.
Spong might actually be right on that point. Well, whadaya know, even a broken clock is right twice a day. But honestly, it sickens me to hear that antichrist's name even mentioned.

[KagomeShuko]

I tend to agree with Spong on his view of "established" denominations. He says the established churches have been around for hundreds of years because they are doing the right thing. The fundamentalist/Pentecostal churchs have only been around for about 100 years. He considers them a flash in the pan. I think he is right. We may be feeling a lull, but I believe it is not permanent. We have what people need to hear, we just need to stick to it.

I get what you are saying, even though I don't really like Spong!

That the "gospel" churches aren't growing right now and the "entertainment" ones are growing.

I do see a lot of that (there's a Baptist church in town that has a bowling alley!!! My sister was invited to go there with a friend of hers once!).

I understand that issue and it is frustrating.

However, it wasn't the exact issue I was addressing. How do I get the members to even care about the church??? They only seem to care about the building. I know that keeping it in good condition matters. . .but these renovation projects aren't NEEDED. . .but they are always the main concern.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[KagomeShuko]

Well, not necessarily how do "I" but how does anybody get members to care about ministry and preaching the gospel over silly material things???

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[JADVirginia]

Facilities are important. You have to get folks in the door! "To Share Christ's Love with the Greatest Number of People" is the mission of my church, and one advantage that they have is a gym.

Yup, a first class gym that is frequently open to the public. For example, on Wednesday mornings, they host a toddler playtime. Similarly, any teen is invited to Freaky-Fridays for open basketball. Lots of other events, open to the public, happen there too.

The gym also supports a great preschool by adding an incredible advantage over the local competition, secular or Christian. And when the preschool uses the gym to hold consignment sales of children's clothing and toys, literally thousands of people come through the door.

I think it is brilliant. And when folks go to that gym, they have every opportunity to learn about Christ. There are pamphlets, fun posters, and warmly welcoming parrishoners participating actively.

So facilities are important if they effectively support your mission. By attracting people to fun events, quality early education, or even letting other public service groups use the facilities, a great facility can get people to ask the spiritual questions that are the ultimate mission of all churches.

For more info, see http://www.redeemermclean.org/.

[KagomeShuko]

Facilities are important. You have to get folks in the door! "To Share Christ's Love with the Greatest Number of People" is the mission of my church, and one advantage that they have is a gym.

Yup, a first class gym that is frequently open to the public. For example, on Wednesday mornings, they host a toddler playtime. Similarly, any teen is invited to Freaky-Fridays for open basketball. Lots of other events, open to the public, happen there too.

The gym also supports a great preschool by adding an incredible advantage over the local competition, secular or Christian. And when the preschool uses the gym to hold consignment sales of children's clothing and toys, literally thousands of people come through the door.

I think it is brilliant. And when folks go to that gym, they have every opportunity to learn about Christ. There are pamphlets, fun posters, and warmly welcoming parrishoners participating actively.

So facilities are important if they effectively support your mission. By attracting people to fun events, quality early education, or even letting other public service groups use the facilities, a great facility can get people to ask the spiritual questions that are the ultimate mission of all churches.

For more info, see http://www.redeemermclean.org/.

I'm not saying facilities aren't important. They are and it's GREAT when they help your mission. However, the little church I attend had a kitchen that was just fine! The amount of work and money that has gone into that kitchen and bought new chairs and tables compared to what they do for ministry/outreach/inreach/music. . .is ridiculous! The kitchen worked. Sure, it looks nice. Sure, now it has a cut-through window. Still, it was NOT necessary. It was just a sudden, "WE WANT this" project from a bunch of people.

If they were actually concerned about getting the playground done, I'd fully support that. I understand how that visually draws in people with children to visit the church.

However, a little kitchen inside the same-looking fellowship hall isn't going to do ANYTHING in supporting the ministry. It's just one of those pleasing renovations. . .

I've come to a feeling at the church that most of the time when people say okay to the few of us going to ministry things, they only "okay" it to appease us rather than really caring about the ministry. That's exactly how it feels to me.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[JADVirginia]

Sometimes, in other churches, I've felt that there's a "this is our clubhouse" mentality. That doesn't help support the mission. If that's what you're seeing, I certainly understand.

I've also seen others who are really shy, introverted folks who aren't very comfortable with the outreach stuff. They find it painfully awkward, so they do things that they feel help out, like mowing the grounds on Saturdays. Maybe some of those folks build kitchens in your church?

[KagomeShuko]

Sometimes, in other churches, I've felt that there's a "this is our clubhouse" mentality. That doesn't help support the mission. If that's what you're seeing, I certainly understand.

I've also seen others who are really shy, introverted folks who aren't very comfortable with the outreach stuff. They find it painfully awkward, so they do things that they feel help out, like mowing the grounds on Saturdays. Maybe some of those folks build kitchens in your church?

I'm constantly seeing the "this is our clubhouse" in the church. That's the entire feel to all of this. I'm an introvert, myself. So, it's odd having/feeling a call to Youth Ministry.

I know the people who actually do help in the ways of painting, electrical work, gardening, mowing the grass, etc. They are definitely appreciated. This isn't the case with the kitchen. It's the "clubhouse" thing. Basically a bunch of the women in the church just WANT it.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[setmefree]

This whole building for building sakes really bugs me too.

Could this have anything to do with keeping the church constantly in debt to preserve its “non for profit” status?

Any tax attorneys among the group? :P
Would anyone admit it if they were a tax attorney anyway? :D


keith

[mnphysicist]

Its hard to follow, but it appears you currently do not have a pastor, since your interim pastor left. It also appears your church is going to try pastoral sharing with another congregation some distance away. As a result.... their is a lack of leadership.

Councils often times only focus on facility issues to the exclusion of the more critical arenas, as it is an area they are comfortable with. As a result, other things suffer, and at such times, many key areas take a major header. The net result, the traditional good old boys club who has been there, not out of service to Christ, but out of long standing tradition remain. It is a sad situation, which seems to repeat itself many times over. One would think this would be an issue to be addressed by leadership, instead of liberal theology, but thats a whole other scenario, and is OT.

If the shared pastor concept does come to be. It may be very useful to meet up with those in equivalent positions in his other church to share ideas and bounce things back and forth.

No matter what, much prayer is needed
Ron

[RedneckAnglican]

I've felt that there's a "this is our clubhouse" mentality.

wasn't this addressed in an episode of "Davey and Goliath"?...

I'm glad my Church isn't this way...I love my Church and the folks in it...my wife and I have only been there a few monthes...and been members for about a month now...but we have always been treated as if we belong...and as if we had always been there...

[KagomeShuko]

wasn't this addressed in an episode of "Davey and Goliath"?...

I'm glad my Church isn't this way...I love my Church and the folks in it...my wife and I have only been there a few monthes...and been members for about a month now...but we have always been treated as if we belong...and as if we had always been there...

It's sad, but for me, I know who actually cares about the ministry by who comes to Sunday School. :sigh:

At least, there is a good little group of people. Just wish this could even be reflected with the leadership, but as stated, that's with the "good ol' boys" network.

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[RedneckAnglican]

I am a firm disbeliever in "Good 'ol Boy" networks...in the early days of the Methodist Church John Wesley made sure that ministers rotated every 3 years...this way new ideas could be propogated and spread around...bad ideas would be forgotten and die off...I feel that Church leadership should be the same way...you been on the Church council for how many years now?...thanks for the service...here's a plaque for your office...see you later...perhaps not quite that blunt, but you get the meaning...the only real problem with this is that in most Churches now a days it's hard to find anyone who will serve...so you get stuck with the same people...the same rut...the same bad ideas...

[KagomeShuko]

While the council did approve of this. . .it's not even really the people ON the council that are making the big deal about the kitchen. I mean, as you said, it's hard enough to find people who will serve. These people usually do care about the ministry. . .and property is supposed to care about property. . .this was more of the W/ELCA, honestly. They came and wanted this kitchen.

Ken, I know you live in TX. I don't know how it is there, but in Louisiana, pretty much EVERYTHING is still the "good ol' boys" network. . .

Stein Auf!
Bridget

[RedneckAnglican]

"A Mighty Fortress" put to the music of Led Zepplin's Black Dog

I know your being sarcastic, but don't put ideas like that into my head...I been on my Bass all morning and you know what...it can be done...

[JADVirginia]

This whole building for building sakes really bugs me too.

Could this have anything to do with keeping the church constantly in debt to preserve its “non for profit” status?

Any tax attorneys among the group? :P
Would anyone admit it if they were a tax attorney anyway? :D


keith



If you really want to know ... no, an organization need not maintain debt to remain not for profit.

JADVirginia, Esq.

[KagomeShuko]

I know your being sarcastic, but don't put ideas like that into my head...I been on my Bass all morning and you know what...it can be done...

You can sing "Amazing Grace" to the tune of the Gilligan's Island theme song.

You can also sing it to the verses "Peaceful Easy Feeling" and leaving the refrain on works for the hymn.

I've never tried or even thought of trying to put "A Mighty Fortress" to a different tune.

I learned the two about Amazing Grace. The first, by reading and just trying. The second, by singing it because it was done that way at a gathering/camp (The Disciple Project).

Stein Auf!
Bridget