I would like to propose...

[SirTimothy]

That there's a change of title of the forum. From "Scripture, Tradition, Reason - Anglican" to "Scripture, Tradition, Reason - Anglican/Old Catholic", to acknowledge our two (or is it three, F4JC?) OC members, who provide very valuable input to this forum. And since the main CF title is way longer than that, vbulletin shouldn't have a problem with it...

What say ye? (This is a public poll)

Timothy

[benedictine]

1- YES, we should get this done.

2-Timothy, you didn't oput anything next to your name (who always does this.)

[Zacharias]

Yes, we should do this! :)

[ethereal hope]

Is Old Catholic like pre-Vatican II Catholics?

[Albion]

Is Old Catholic like pre-Vatican II Catholics?

In theory at least, they are like pre-Vatican I Catholics. That is to say, they departed from the Roman Church when it declared the Pope to be infallible. Believing this to be neither scriptural nor Traditional but a new concept, they could not abide this change. Their intention was to maintain everything that the Church had represented until then.

A century later, of course, the Roman Catholic Church modified some other of its practices, such as in the liturgy. By and large, the Old Catholics continue to worship and celebrate the sacraments in the pre-Vatican II way, but what most distinguishes them (and caused them to come into existence as a separate body) was Vatican I. When they split, they continued their Apostolic orders by having an independent Catholic church in the Netherlands which Rome also considered to have legitimate Apostolic Succession pass that onto their churches.

Many Old Catholic Churches today, however, are not recognized by those Old Catholic churches, having themselves split from the older ones.

[Albion]

You could call them Anglicans that use the Tridentine liturgy.

I believe that would be a mistake.

[PaladinValer]

I believe we should include Old Catholics in the title, but if so, let's chance the entire name.

Canterbury-Utrecht Harmony (Anglican/Old Catholic Forum) sounds rather nice to me.

[Fish and Bread]

I favor the concept of including Old Catholics in the forum title, as I find our Old Catholic friends to be valued members of our online community. However, practically speaking, I think the actual name "Old Catholic" could cause some confusion, and could see people stopping by fairly frequently confused about the nature of Old Catholicism and asking why there seems to be a joint board for Roman Catholics and Anglicans as well as a seperate Roman Catholic board. As such, I would propose who use an alternate name for Old Catholics in the forum title, such as "Scripture, Reason, Tradition: Anglicans and Utrecht-Catholics" (My changing STR to SRT is intentional as Hooker actually listed them in the latter order, if I recall correctly, when he first introduced those three words to describe the Anglican approach to faith and not the order currently being used in our forum name). I would additionally suggest that OBOB's name be changed to more clearly reflect that it is a forum for *Roman* Catholics in order to further reduce confusion. :)

John

[benedictine]

This thread is closed for staff review and cool down town. STR rules do not allow non STR members to call any member of this forum schismatic. STR rules, while not explicitly forbidding immaturity, are based upon the principle that we act maturely at all times while on this board, unless the said posts are in a "fun thread".

Peace

[pmcleanj]

Okay, friends. Carry on, with respect and charity.

[TomUK]

Why don't we just rename the forum 'non-Roman Catholic Catholics'? ;)

[ahab]

I have voted other. If its scripture reason and tradition as in Anglican, then it ought to be open and represenative of the Anglican communion worldwide. this includes high and low church, evangelicals and affirmingcatholicism and all regions. And yet of course its heavily US and eurpoean anglo-catholic IMO.

I believe it should saty the same, but if a chaneg was considered I suggest a separate north american episcopal spilt in the light of recent events.

peace:)

[Albion]

That there's a change of title of the forum. From "Scripture, Tradition, Reason - Anglican" to "Scripture, Tradition, Reason - Anglican/Old Catholic", to acknowledge our two (or is it three, F4JC?) OC members, who provide very valuable input to this forum. And since the main CF title is way longer than that, vbulletin shouldn't have a problem with it...

What say ye? (This is a public poll)

Timothy

IS Old Catholicism indeed rightly described by the expression, "Scripture, Tradition, Reason" (since that's part of the proposal) in the same way that it applies to Anglicans?

[Zacharias]

IS Old Catholicism indeed rightly described by the expression, "Scripture, Tradition, Reason" (since that's part of the proposal) in the same way that it applies to Anglicans?
They use Scripture and Tradition. To decide the Pope is fallible even though the majority disagreed, I'd say they have good Reasoning. :)

[Albion]

They use Scripture and Tradition. To decide the Pope is fallible even though the majority disagreed, I'd say they have good Reasoning. :)

Well, they USE Scripture and Tradition. Certainly. But when we say S-T-R we are speaking of that familiar three-legged stool idea in which the three are balanced, harmonious. There are many families of faith in which scripture and tradition are both used, but one has priority over the other. And Reasoning is something that everyone with intellectual powers uses, but that's not what is meant theologically in the S-T-R expression.

So, maybe it's a question for our OC brothers.

[Zacharias]

Well, they USE Scripture and Tradition. Certainly. But when we say S-T-R we are speaking of that familiar three-legged stool idea in which the three are balanced, harmonious. There are many families of faith in which scripture and tradition are both used, but one has priority over the other. And Reasoning is something that everyone with intellectual powers uses, but that's not what is meant theologically in the S-T-R expression.

So, maybe it's a question for our OC brothers.
What doe Reason mean? :)

[Father Rick]

Hmmm... I didn't find this 'til today and it looks like I missed all the fun already!:P

Well, obviously I voted to have us "OC's" included in the name, but my feelings aren't going to be hurt either way so you guys do whatever is best for the forum.

As to the number of OC's here... I know of me, Rev Smith, Wiggles, Deacon Will (on rare occasions), Freak (depending on his mood that day;) )...

I actually think having 'Old Catholic' in the name may be a good thing-- even though I know it will probably ruffle a few OBOB feathers, since there are SSPX'ers and others who are not accepted in OBOB who may find a place to at least fellowship here. It may also educate some as to the existence of 'other' Catholics.

As I said before, however, whatever is best for the forum is fine with me and I won't be upset regardless.

Blessings!

[Father Rick]

Why don't we just rename the forum 'non-Roman Catholic Catholics'? ;)How about "The Catholics OBOB doesn't want you to know about":P

Ok...OK... I know I'm being bad!

[Fish and Bread]

I believe it should saty the same, but if a chaneg was considered I suggest a separate north american episcopal spilt in the light of recent events.

As an Episcopalian, I personally would prefer to remain united with my Anglican and Old Catholic brothers and sisters as a member of the present forum. Even if events shake out in such a way that ECUSA winds up no longer being a member of the Anglican Communion, ECUSA would still be Anglican in the same sense that the continuing churches in North America are Anglican. We've already set a precident for allowing all who identify as Anglican or Old Catholic to participate here and have not limited participation to people who are formally with communion with any one particular bishop or See.

John

[Fish and Bread]

Why don't we just rename the forum 'non-Roman Catholic Catholics'? ;)

I find that idea amusing, but ultimately I think we would lose too many Anglicans who might otherwise become members who would not be able to easily identify this as the forum they're supposed to be in.

John

[Fish and Bread]

I actually think having 'Old Catholic' in the name may be a good thing-- even though I know it will probably ruffle a few OBOB feathers, since there are SSPX'ers and others who are not accepted in OBOB who may find a place to at least fellowship here.

That's a good point. Do you think SSPXers would get along well with this board, though? Don't they pretty strongly condemn Protestants, think people can suffer in hell for taking communion on the hand, and so forth? I wonder if they'd even *want* to be here. They'd certainly be welcome to fellowship, but I could see defining them as members causing some threads to start where they define us all as outside the church and apostate. Basically, it seems their beef with Roman Catholicism is simply that it isn't enough like the worst excesses of Roman Catholicism of the middle ages anymore whereas Anglican and Old Catholics to some extent owe their heritage to efforts to counter those excesses. I could be wrong, though -- maybe there is a SPPX member here who could set the record straight for me. I haven't had much contact with SPPX and am basing my impression of their theology primarily on some website I once came across as well as what Roman Catholics have told me of them.

John

[Zacharias]

How about the Diverse Catholic Church. :)

[Albion]

As an Episcopalian, I personally would prefer to remain united with my Anglican and Old Catholic brothers and sisters as a member of the present forum. Even if events shake out in such a way that ECUSA winds up no longer being a member of the Anglican Communion, ECUSA would still be Anglican in the same sense that the continuing churches in North America are Anglican. We've already set a precident for allowing all who identify as Anglican or Old Catholic to participate here and have not limited participation to people who are formally with communion with any one particular bishop or See.

John

That expresses my view, too.

It's not as though there are any identifiable problems with the way it works now, so let's not, with the best of intentions, make a successful situation worse.

[higgs2]

I should know this -- but -- what is an SSPX'er?

Hmmm... I didn't find this 'til today and it looks like I missed all the fun already!:P

Well, obviously I voted to have us "OC's" included in the name, but my feelings aren't going to be hurt either way so you guys do whatever is best for the forum.

As to the number of OC's here... I know of me, Rev Smith, Wiggles, Deacon Will (on rare occasions), Freak (depending on his mood that day;) )...

I actually think having 'Old Catholic' in the name may be a good thing-- even though I know it will probably ruffle a few OBOB feathers, since there are SSPX'ers and others who are not accepted in OBOB who may find a place to at least fellowship here. It may also educate some as to the existence of 'other' Catholics.

As I said before, however, whatever is best for the forum is fine with me and I won't be upset regardless.

Blessings!

[Zacharias]

I should know this -- but -- what is an SSPX'er?
Here's a link to their website: http://www.sspx.org/

P.S. If you post it in OBOB you'll in trouble for posting a schismatic link. :D

[Wigglesworth]

I should know this -- but -- what is an SSPX'er?

The Society of Saint Pius X (http://www.sspx.org/) celebrates the mass in Latin, and they don't like all these new fangled modernizations arising from the second Vatican council.

[ahab]

I think my point is the same as I mentioned before, that as a sort of low church, evangelical ‘Anglican’ I am not finding much common ground in this SRT section. As to ‘old catholic’ I think that equates to 'affirmingcatholicism' and 'anglo catholic', but my experience is we work with, and talk to Roman Catholics more than high church anglicans anyway. (which may speak volumes about where the ECUSA is right now) So I would still say if the section is to be renamed to include Old Catholics then it will end up even less representative of Anglican.

[Fish and Bread]

I should know this -- but -- what is an SSPX'er?

SSPX=Society of St. Pius X (Named after the late Pope of that name, a staunch defender of orthodoxy in the view of the society).

After Vatican II, a renegade Cardinal (Or perhaps the only orthodox one remaining, from the SSPX perspective) refused to adopt the Novus Ordo mass (i.e. the one in the venacular adopted at Vatican 2) and considered it an improper rite. He wound up ordaining priests who agreed with him and shortly before his death consecrated four bishops to carry on his movement. SSPX folks consider themselves Roman Catholics in communion with the Pope, however a Pope excommunicated many of them and they are not allowed to say masses on Roman Catholic property. Their orders are considered "valid, but illicit" by the Vatican. Generally, SSPX folks are categorized by their complete rejection of mass in the venacular and the non-linguistic liturgical issues they have with the new mass, which they consider to be creation of Protestants and thus not Catholic (Some of their other objections to the new mass include the priest facing the people, communion in the hand, etc.). Generally, theologically, SSPX folks are very very conservative in the sense of affirming Roman Catholic ideals from the middle ages. I don't know much about them beyond that, but I'd imagine things like marrying non-Catholics (As defined by them) and so forth would be considered unethical to them. There is some talk that Pope Benedict XVI may try to bring them back into full communion with him by offering them the carrot of easing restrictions on the old-rite Latin mass (Which used to be nearly completely banned and is now allowed in some places by special permission from the local bishop under a policy put in places by JPII), though. The issue of their non-acceptance of the new rite being a "real" mass would probably still be a stumbling block, though.

*All this is said with the disclaimer that I've never been to an SSPX mass or talked to an actual SSPX member, so I'm just going on what I've picked up here and there and could be wrong on some of the specifics.

John

[Albion]

I think my point is the same as I mentioned before, that as a sort of low church, evangelical ‘Anglican’ I am not finding much common ground in this SRT section. As to ‘old catholic’ I think that equates to 'affirmingcatholicism' and 'anglo catholic', but my experience is we work with, and talk to Roman Catholics more than high church anglicans anyway. (which may speak volumes about where the ECUSA is right now) So I would still say if the section is to be renamed to include Old Catholics then it will end up even less representative of Anglican.

The poll itself is turning out to be useless anyway, since the votes include one who is tallied in two different answer categories, one who is still seeking his affiliation, and one professed Roman Catholic. All that suggests to me that we continue to be an Anglican poll, allowing OCs who have no other home and are welcomed here, and a liberal policy concerning non-members to participate within limits (but not to determine our name and rules, I wouldn't think).

[SirTimothy]

Hmm... I can't see the results at the moment... I need to work out how. I thought it would be fairly obvious that this was only open to full members of STR, though... Since they are technically only supposed to be involved in fellowship threads.

*sighs*

Timothy

[PaladinValer]

I have voted other. If its scripture reason and tradition as in Anglican, then it ought to be open and represenative of the Anglican communion worldwide. this includes high and low church, evangelicals and affirmingcatholicism and all regions. And yet of course its heavily US and eurpoean anglo-catholic IMO.

This is, with all due respect, a moot point. Your are arguing ad populum.

Despite the fact that this forum in a joint, nearly 100% voice, chose to accept the OCs into our forum as full participants, with all rights and responsibilities?

If I were Father Rick and Co, I would have polited asked something be done months upon months earlier. The fact that they have been so meet and patient proves they are far better Christians than I am.

How about "The Catholics OBOB doesn't want you to know about"

Ok...OK... I know I'm being bad!

You wicked little hobbit! :P

[Wigglesworth]

What about "Come to the Table-- Anglican/Old Catholic"?

I like the communion table theme. Both the Anglicans and the Old Catholics allow any baptised Christian who believes in the real presence to receive communion.

[Albion]

Hmm... I can't see the results at the moment... I need to work out how. I thought it would be fairly obvious that this was only open to full members of STR, though... Since they are technically only supposed to be involved in fellowship threads.

*sighs*

Timothy

Click on the orange number that tells you how many have voted in any category to date, Timothy. It will then reveal the voters' identities.

[Albion]

I like the communion table theme. Both the Anglicans and the Old Catholics allow any baptised Christian who believes in the real presence to receive communion.

Some, most do. But there are some (TAC, for instance) which follow a close communion policy.

[Wigglesworth]

Some, most do. But there are some (TAC, for instance) which follow a close communion policy.

Hmmm . . . impossible to find a cigar that satisfies every smoker. :)

[Bonifatius]

Well, I voted for "other" as I think STR does not really fit with the Old Catholic Identity as far as I know it. I find it very good though to mention the Old Catholics in the board name.

I like Father Rick's proposal "Come to the table" - it sounds very inviting.

There is a sentence in Common Worship that goes in that direction ... what do you think about "Let us keep the feast - Anglican/Old Catholic" - as to both our traditions the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist is essential.

Greetz
Boni

[Albion]

There is a sentence in Common Worship that goes in that direction ... what do you think about "Let us keep the feast - Anglican/Old Catholic" - as to both our traditions the liturgical celebration of the Eucharist is essential.

Greetz
Boni


Well, it doesn't even appear in the Book of Common Prayer that many of us use.

[Wigglesworth]

How about these phrases from the Book of Common Prayer?

We Believe in One God - Anglican/Old Catholic

Kyrie Eleison - Anglican/Old Catholic

Walk in Love - Anglican/Old Catholic

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism - Anglican/Old Catholic

The Communion of Saints - Anglican/Old Catholic

:crossrc:

[Colabomb]

What about Scripture Tradition and Reason, Anglican and other Catholics.

Or something along those lines?

[Albion]

How about these phrases from the Book of Common Prayer?

We Believe in One God - Anglican/Old Catholic

Kyrie Eleison - Anglican/Old Catholic

Walk in Love - Anglican/Old Catholic

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism - Anglican/Old Catholic

The Communion of Saints - Anglican/Old Catholic

:crossrc:

This is fun to kick around, and I know that you are doing some serious thinking there with those suggestions, so I have no want to nit-pick them to death by pointing out that it STILL depends upon which version of the BCP one is using...and that we Anglicans (to say nothing of the Old Catholics) do not have any one BCP in common.

But then, if we find one saying or title (the first one you suggested, for example) that is foolproof acceptable to all of us, what good is it as a mark of distinctiveness as opposed to the other forums? Almost every Christian could assent to that saying (We believe in one God)!

STR at least is a typically Anglican expression that even the different parties within can pretty much agree to.

With that in mind, I did ask (and Boni also questioned) the applicability of "STR" as a concept harmonious with Old Catholic belief and practice before we go any further with possible changes. What do YOU think about that, Wig?

[Albion]

What about Scripture Tradition and Reason, Anglican and other Catholics.

Or something along those lines?

Although I favor not fixing something that isn't broken...

I'm leaning towards your thinking if a majority of Anglicans and Old Catholic voting here are for one agreed-up replacement title. We are far from that now, but I like what you said.

I would rather Scripture, Tradition, and Reason--Anglican and Old Catholic.

Not "Anglican/Old Catholic" which sounds like the two are interchangable-- which is fair to neither--instead of the reality that we have two notable religious traditions that are closer in many ways than either is with most other church groups.

[Zacharias]

[QUOTE=Albion]I would rather Scripture, Tradition, and Reason--Anglican and Old Catholic.
QUOTE]

Sounds good to me. :)

[Wigglesworth]

STR at least is a typically Anglican expression that even the different parties within can pretty much agree to. With that in mind, I did ask (and Boni also questioned) the applicability of "STR" as a concept harmonious with Old Catholic belief and practice before we go any further with possible changes. What do YOU think about that, Wig?

Old Catholic belief is based upon Scripture, Tradition, and Ecumenical Synods. As I understand it, the concept of a three-legged stool is unique to Anglicanism. However, I certainly would not oppose STR remaining as the name of the forum.

If I were to entertain unkind thoughts about our separatist brethren, I would probably say that reason sets Anglicans and Old Catholics apart from them in the approaches taken toward one another.

While reason is not expressly upheld in the PNCC in the same way it is in the Anglican Communion, reason is certainly not foreign to the way the PNCC approaches Scripture and Tradition. The position taken on eternal punishment is a prime example of our first bishop rejecting an idea that seemed to him to be unreasonable.

My vote, without reservation, is for

Scripture, Tradition, and Reason - Anglican and Old Catholic

God save the President, the Queen and our Bishops!

:amen:

[Albion]

Old Catholic belief is based upon Scripture, Tradition, and Ecumenical Synods. As I understand it, the concept of a three-legged stool is unique to Anglicanism. However, I certainly would not oppose STR remaining as the name of the forum.

If I were to entertain unkind thoughts about our separatist brethren, I would probably say that reason sets Anglicans and Old Catholics apart from them in the approaches taken toward one another.

While reason is not expressly upheld in the PNCC in the same way it is in the Anglican Communion, reason is certainly not foreign to the way the PNCC approaches Scripture and Tradition. The position taken on eternal punishment is a prime example of our first bishop rejecting an idea that seemed to him to be unreasonable.

My vote, without reservation, is for

Scripture, Tradition, Reason - Anglican and Old Catholic

God save the President, the Queen and our Bishops!

:amen:

Thanks. That seems an excellent assessment of the situation. And I appreciate that it's from the OC side of our group.

Obviously, Reason is the hardest of the three to pin down for any of us and is subject to many misunderstandings. But since it is not outside the OC way and is not any kind of red flag for you, that's a biggie settled IMO.

[PaladinValer]

I will agree with the current trend conditionally. I see one Old Catholic (Wigglesworth) agrees with it, and if I see more, then consider my vote for it confirmed.

[Fish and Bread]

The position taken on eternal punishment is a prime example of our first bishop rejecting an idea that seemed to him to be unreasonable.

What was the position taken on enternal punishment by your first bishop, out of curiosity?

John

[Aymn27]

How about "The Catholics OBOB doesn't want you to know about":P

Ok...OK... I know I'm being bad!
ROFL!! I LOVE it!!!

[Wigglesworth]

What was the position taken on enternal punishment by your first bishop, out of curiosity?

John

You can read about it here (http://www.bvmc.org/theology/eternal_life.html). There were some threads on that particular issue in the last month or so in General Theology and elsewhere.

:)

[alban]

Not "Anglican/Old Catholic" which sounds like the two are interchangable-- which is fair to neither--instead of the reality that we have two notable religious traditions that are closer in many ways than either is with most other church groups.

That's a good point. There's enough confusion about Anglicanism and the Old Catholics at this forum without adding to it with our forum name.

Secondly, i'm all for renaming the forum to further the belief of the centrality of the mass, but we can't forget that there are our Anglican (either here, or simply in the wider communion) which don't place such an emphasis on communion. Would it be fair to those Anglicans (and also representative of our church) if we renamed it as such?

[Fish and Bread]

You can read about it here (http://www.bvmc.org/theology/eternal_life.html).

Interesting. Thank you for sharing the link. Are these the views of all Old Catholic Churches or the PNC only?

John

[Father Rick]

Interesting. Thank you for sharing the link. Are these the views of all Old Catholic Churches or the PNC only?

JohnPNCC is the only OC jurisdiction I am aware of that holds those views.

[Wigglesworth]

. . . use an alternate name for Old Catholics in the forum title, such as "Scripture, Reason, Tradition: Anglicans and Utrecht-Catholics" . . . I would additionally suggest that OBOB's name be changed to more clearly reflect that it is a forum for *Roman* Catholics in order to further reduce confusion. :)

There are actually no churches in the USA who are members of the Utrecht Union, although our faith icon is "Utrecht." That is a reason "Old Catholic" might be more fitting. The PNCC was the Utrecht Union member in the USA until they parted ways. More importantly, I never heard of Utrecht until I started posting here. I don't think most people would have any idea what an Old Catholic or a Utrecht Catholic would be either way without doing some research.

As for changing the name of OBOB . . . well . . . maybe that can be the poll for next month. :D

For now, I would ask the rest of the Anglicans and Old Catholics to chime in.

[julian the apostate]

wigglesworth,, so you know longer believe in hell?

[Fish and Bread]

There are actually no churches in the USA who are members of the Utrecht Union, although our faith icon is "Utrecht." That is a reason "Old Catholic" might be more fitting.

I find it ironic that the Roman Catholic icon is just listed as "Catholic" without even a qualifier to indicate the symbol is only appropriate for Catholics loyal to the Vatican, yet Old Catholics don't even get an icon that indicates their Catholicity *with* a qualifier like "Utrecht Catholic" or "Old Catholic". It almost seems to indicate an editorial/theological decision on the part of the website.

The PNCC was the Utrecht Union member in the USA until they parted ways.

Any idea why they decided to part ways with each other? I just ask out of historical curiosity, stuff like this fascinates me. :)

As for changing the name of OBOB . . . well . . . maybe that can be the poll for next month.

Do we get a vote in that poll? ;)

John

[pmcleanj]

Do we get a vote in that poll? ;)

I'm reminded of the story of the two Canadians who died unsaved.

They found themselves in the fiery place, but much to it's master's dismay, they immediately began rejoicing:

"It's warm, eh? Like, we're from Canada, eh? And anyplace warm, that's great!"

Dismayed, the prince of lies ordered his demons to heap coals on the furnaces, until the lake of fire boiled higher and his realm was hotter than it had ever been. Alas, the Canadians only rejoiced further:

"Like, break out the barbecue, eh? Let's take advantage of the good weather! Sure, it's warm, but it's better than a blizzard, eh? Beach volleyball down by the lake, eh?"

An infernal idea here struck the prince of evil, and he ordered the demons to extinguish the fires and crank up the air conditioning to maximum. Icy winds now howled across the forsaken land. Now, he would hear those annoying Canucks wail with anguish. And wailing they were -- or was it cries of delight? Those fiends! Through chattering teeth, they were cheering:

"The Leafs have won the Stanley Cup! The Leafs have won the Stanley Cup!"

[Fish and Bread]

"The Leafs have won the Stanley Cup! The Leafs have won the Stanley Cup!"

A very amusing way of making your point. :) I'll have to steal it for my own use sometime, if you don't mind (Properly credited, of course). ;)

Is the identity of the person who owns this website public knowledge? If so, what denomination, if any, does he/she belong to?

John

[Father Rick]

I find it ironic that the Roman Catholic icon is just listed as "Catholic" without even a qualifier to indicate the symbol is only appropriate for Catholics loyal to the Vatican, yet Old Catholics don't even get an icon that indicates their Catholicity *with* a qualifier like "Utrecht Catholic" or "Old Catholic". It almost seems to indicate an editorial/theological decision on the part of the website.
It was... there was a huge war over in OBOB when I first came online and the only choice of icon was 'catholic'-- which I used. A lot of really bad stuff went on by the OBOB'ers until Erwin created the OC icon to calm the waters. However, 'Old Catholic' was specifically rejected as the label of the OC icon as it was thought it would be too confusing (like Utrecht isn't confusing). Anyway... that's the history. I haven't made a big deal out of it.

Any idea why they decided to part ways with each other? I just ask out of historical curiosity, stuff like this fascinates me. :) The official reason is that PNCC rejects the ordination of women. The unofficial reason is that certain jurisdictions of the Utrecht Union in Europe are beginning to open the doors to ordaining 'elephants' which PNCC does not agree with.

[pmcleanj]

A very amusing way of making your point. :) I'll have to steal it for my own use sometime, if you don't mind (Properly credited, of course). ;)

Is the identity of the person who owns this website public knowledge? If so, what denomination, if any, does he/she belong to?

John

Christian Forums is owned by Dr. Erwin Loh, username "Erwin" http://www.christianforums.com/about

Dr. Loh does a fairly good job of not being nailed down as to any one perspective. As near as I can tell, he really is 100% committed to the goal of uniting all Christians as one body, and he really doesn't play favourites. I think he's some manner of congregationalist protestant, but that's my own guess from the occasional comments he's made that "didn't sound Catholic". He does post in the CF support forums and, if you're a site supporter, occasionally in the suggestions forum, as well as in a few other rare places.

The reason OBOB is called "Catholic" is that that's what they asked to be called, and he accomodated them. A lot of protestants don't realize that there are Catholics outside of communion with Rome, so they don't see the term as being exclusivist. I got the impression he was surprised when a bit of discord broke out over exclusive rightes to the term -- but he really does try to be accomodating, fair, and practical.

Bottom line is, we're here to support one another, feed Christ's little ones, and make disciples of all nations. It is sad that occasional confusion and hurt feeling happen because out-of-communion Catholics wander into OBOB, give unintentional offense, and have to retreat with their wounds -- but is it worth the vain battle it would be attempting to get them to relinquish their claims to exclusivity? And remember, the people in OBOB who do insist on sole claim to the unmodified word "Catholic" are themselves hurt and wounded by any claims to the contrary. It may not be fair or reasonable, but that doesn't diminish the reality of their hurt.

For practical purposes, outside of OBOB, we can use clarifying nomenclature, and keep an eye out to pick up the wounded and tend their sores. There's not much to gain by us making a fuss over their forum's name.

[Fish and Bread]

It was... there was a huge war over in OBOB when I first came online and the only choice of icon was 'catholic'-- which I used. A lot of really bad stuff went on by the OBOB'ers until Erwin created the OC icon to calm the waters. However, 'Old Catholic' was specifically rejected as the label of the OC icon as it was though it would be too confusing (like Utrecht isn't confusing). Anyway... that's the history. I haven't made a big deal out of it.

For the most part, I think this is a wonderful website, which is why I spend so much time here. Yet, there does seem to either be a predisposition to bow to the will of the majority on nearly every conceiveable issue, which results in inconsistancies in terms of the nature of the way rules are applied, and is just kind of generally an odd attitude for a website based on a religion founded by someone who was very countercultural for his time, *or* a strong bias towards Roman Catholicism. I suspect the former rather than the later simply because the "How to become a Christian" description on the website doesn't seem like something the Pope would approve of. ;)

Anyhow, I'd glad you decided to make your home here with us in STR. OBOB's loss has definitely been our gain. :)

The official reason is that PNCC rejects the ordination of women. The unofficial reason is that certain jurisdictions of the Utrecht Union in Europe are beginning to open the doors to ordaining 'elephants' which PNCC does not agree with.

The PNCC seems like an interesting mix of conservatism and liberalism. Conservative views in terms of who they'll ordain, yet what I think would generally be considered to be a very liberal view of salvation. It's interesting, because it's so unusual nowadays to have churches that are staunchly both liberal and conservative. Usually they're one or the other, or perhaps simply open to both values, but it is interesting to see a church with solid stands on both sides, depending on the issue. Does the PNCC have open communion to all baptised Christians?

John

[Father Rick]

Does the PNCC have open communion to all baptised Christians?

I believe so. I don't know of an OC jurisdiction that doesn't. Wiggles may be better to answer that since he is actually in a PNCC church now.

[Fish and Bread]

Bottom line is, we're here to support one another, feed Christ's little ones, and make disciples of all nations. It is sad that occasional confusion and hurt feeling happen because out-of-communion Catholics wander into OBOB, give unintentional offense, and have to retreat with their wounds -- but is it worth the vain battle it would be attempting to get them to relinquish their claims to exclusivity? And remember, the people in OBOB who do insist on sole claim to the unmodified word "Catholic" are themselves hurt and wounded by any claims to the contrary. It may not be fair or reasonable, but that doesn't diminish the reality of their hurt.

There are official RCC documents which refer to their church as the "Roman Catholic Church". It seems a little odd that Roman Catholics would object to having the official name for their church used to identify their forum. I'm not sure what their motivation is for refusing to be identified that name, even though it would clear up a lot of confusion and prevent a lot of hurt feelings, but it gives the appearance of them using their forum name and identifying icon as tools to make a theological point, which I think is inappropriate given the ecumenical nature of this forum and the fact that who qualifies as catholic is something that is often disputed. Though I am sure it is unintended, it also gives the appearance of the site endorsing the RCC's claim to be the only true catholic church. I'd simply like to see the site take a more clearly neutral stance on the issue, though I agree it probably isn't worth fighting over -- there are much bigger problems in the world. :)


For practical purposes, outside of OBOB, we can use clarifying nomenclature, and keep an eye out to pick up the wounded and tend their sores. There's not much to gain by us making a fuss over their forum's name.

I suppose that's true. I just feel bad for Father Rick and the others who have and will find themselves in the same situation he did because the RCC forums and faith icons are identified in a confusing manner.

John

[Albion]

Well, it appears that democracy loses out again.

Has everyone noticed that the forum name has been changed for us?

Even though--

voting isn't closed yet,

one voter is recorded twice,

Members of other forums have voted here,

and several who voted changed their minds and said so to no avail (in particular, changed to
"Scripture, Tradition, Reason--Anglican and Old Catholic.")

None of it mattered.

Looks like I'm a Protestant Anglican/Old Catholic now!;)

[Fish and Bread]

and several who voted changed their minds and said so to no avail (in particular, changed to
"Scripture, Tradition, Reason--Anglican and Old Catholic.")

None of it mattered.

Looks like I'm a Protestant Anglican/Old Catholic now!;)

I really would have liked to have seen a head to head vote between "Anglican and Old Catholic" and "Anglican/Old Catholic". I think the former would have won in a landslide as it is a more accurate description that can be more generally agreed to than what was ultimately chosen. Still, I am glad to see our Old Catholic brothers and sisters included in this forum's title, even though I wish it were worded slightly differently. It was a somewhat glaring deficency that they were not mentioned in our name, especially given that we have at least 3-4 regulars who identify as Old Catholic now. I also would still like to see "Scripture, Tradition, Reason" changed to "Scripture, Reason, Tradition" as well, since, as far as I can tell it's simply an error that they aren't listed in Hooker's order, rather than anything that was done for a specific purpose, and as such it is something that I see no reason not to correct. Granted, these aren't really issues of earth shattering importance. :)

John

[Fish and Bread]

Also, while I'm nitpicking, I notice that our description on the "congregation" list says "The forum for Anglican, Anglo-Catholic and Episcopal churches.". Given our name change and in the interests of greater accuracy, wouldn't it make more sense to have the description be "The forum for the Anglican, Anglo-Catholic, Episcopal, Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, and other similar or related churches."? Granted the PNCC is an Old Catholic Church, but since both Anglican and Episcopal are included seperately, I assume the intent is to put up every name that people could recognize and say "That's me!", so it makes sense to include both the PNCC and the OCC on the list. :) Can we start a poll to vote on that? ;)

John

[Fish and Bread]

And what happened to my ECUSA shield? ;)

John

[Albion]

I really would have liked to have seen a head to head vote between "Anglican and Old Catholic" and "Anglican/Old Catholic".

Maybe you should start one. It couldn't hurt.

I think the former would have won in a landslide as it is a more accurate description that can be more generally agreed to than what was ultimately chosen.

That's the impression I had, judging by several people's responses. More important to me, I was thinking that this would really be a unifying thing with everyone's interests, just about, reflected in that title. As it is, few wind up with what they hoped for, including some who first went for A/OC and changed to A and OC but were ignored.

Still, I am glad to see our Old Catholic brothers and sisters included in this forum's title, even though I wish it were worded slightly differently.

There doesn't seem to be any doubt about that, but it was made more certain when Wiggles joined the NCC and one other decided to join an OC church if one could be found. That's a big percentagfe gain for the OC and surely makes them too big to be shunted aside.

It was a somewhat glaring deficency that they were not mentioned in our name,

Well, I wasn't sure of that when we really had only one OC and another rarely checking in. But four or so makes a big diff, I agree.

I also would still like to see "Scripture, Tradition, Reason" changed to "Scripture, Reason, Tradition" as well, since, as far as I can tell it's simply an error that they aren't listed in Hooker's order, rather than anything that was done for a specific purpose, and as such it is something that I see no reason not to correct. Granted, these aren't really issues of earth shattering importance. :)

I agree with you there, too. Let's just refer to it like that anyway. ;)

Signed,

Your Evangelical Anglican/Old Catholic friend.

("We stand on the findings of the Seven Ecumenical Councils so long we don't have to believe anything they decided" is our slogan.)

[Albion]

And what happened to my ECUSA shield? ;)

John

Maybe you were right to be worried about the parish leaving the Church. Darn, they move fast!

[Father Rick]

And what happened to my ECUSA shield? ;)

John Erwin is working on the armor right now, so stuff is disappearing/reappearing... you haven't lost anything permanently, however.

[Fish and Bread]

("We stand on the findings of the Seven Ecumenical Councils so long we don't have to believe anything they decided" is our slogan.)

Are you sure you're not Episcopalian? ;)

John

[Fish and Bread]

Maybe you were right to be worried about the parish leaving the Church. Darn, they move fast!

LOL. If my shield comes back as "Shield of the Church of Bishop Aiknola", I'm trading it in for something else. ;)

John

[pmcleanj]

Well, it appears that democracy loses out again.

Has everyone noticed that the forum name has been changed for us?
.
.
.

None of it mattered.

Looks like I'm a Protestant Anglican/Old Catholic now!;)
On the contrary. Feel free to carry on the debate, redefine the polls, offer up variations on the names, and come to the perfect consensus.

But the Old Catholics have been accepted members of this forum for pushing a year now, and every so often the "members-only-debating-and-don't-call-our-members-schismatics-in-their-own-forum" rule bites someone who doesn't realize -- based on the name and rules -- that this is the home of the Old Catholics. And we've had these polls before, and they've dropped of the board without being closed as new and different ideas are added and discussed. The simple change is easy: by Erwin's final decision (informed by discussions on this board, and the general consensus of members, but nonetheless by fiat since he is the site owner and has final authority) Old Catholics are members of this forum on an equal footing with Anglicans. So the simplistic change is simply to add them to the name and rules in parallel with "Anglican". It's not the best solution, but it's the simplest, and hence he was able to change the forum name and authorize the rules changes today.

Come to a consensus on additional changes, and we can request them. At least in the meantime, we have a name and rules that reflect the simple fact that Old Catholics belong here.

[SirTimothy]

("We stand on the findings of the Seven Ecumenical Councils so long we don't have to believe anything they decided" is our slogan.)

Are you sure you're not Episcopalian? ;)

LOL!

Timothy (Who finds that idea extremely funny)

[alban]

I also would still like to see "Scripture, Tradition, Reason" changed to "Scripture, Reason, Tradition" as well, since, as far as I can tell it's simply an error that they aren't listed in Hooker's order

From the (admittedly minimal) reading ive done, the phrase 'scripture tradition and reason' is actually a very recent development, which while commonly attributed to Hooker cannot be found explicitly within his work, be it in the form expressed in the forum title or your favoured version.

[Albion]

On the contrary. Feel free to carry on the debate, redefine the polls, offer up variations on the names, and come to the perfect consensus.

But the Old Catholics have been accepted members of this forum for pushing a year now, and every so often the "members-only-debating-and-don't-call-our-members-schismatics-in-their-own-forum" rule bites someone who doesn't realize -- based on the name and rules -- that this is the home of the Old Catholics. And we've had these polls before, and they've dropped of the board without being closed as new and different ideas are added and discussed. The simple change is easy: by Erwin's final decision (informed by discussions on this board, and the general consensus of members, but nonetheless by fiat since he is the site owner and has final authority) Old Catholics are members of this forum on an equal footing with Anglicans. So the simplistic change is simply to add them to the name and rules in parallel with "Anglican". It's not the best solution, but it's the simplest, and hence he was able to change the forum name and authorize the rules changes today.

Come to a consensus on additional changes, and we can request them. At least in the meantime, we have a name and rules that reflect the simple fact that Old Catholics belong here.

Most of that is way off the subject.

No one has posted a suggestion that Old Catholics be kept off the board or anything like it.

The discussion is over a good and an accurate title.

Pray tell, how does Anglicans and Old Catholics damage the Old Catholic position as opposed to Anglican/Old Catholics? Huh? It's a ridiculous argument.

But it's also ridiculous to say "go ahead and debate" when we can see with our own eyes that the title has already been changed to one particular suggestion. At the very least, when "other" is solicited, those ideas should be allowed in some way to have a chance also, perhaps in a run-off poll.

Go ahead and change it back, clean up the voting system so that non-voters can't vote, prevent double votes, and let people change their minds as they are persuaded by argument, ...and then there will be a chance of the consensus you mentioned. None exists now and yet the name has already been changed without notice. That's a fact.

[gitlance]

I know! I know! How about Strength, Tradition, Reason -- Christ's One True Church? Hahahahahahahahahaha.

Disclaimer: The above is purely for entertainment purposes only. No seriousness is meant by that statement. (At least, I don't think so....) ;)

[Father Rick]

Looking at the way it shows up on the main listings... it may be possible that 'Anglican and Old Catholic' is just too long to fit in the space allotted. As it is, we have the longest name of any of the forums.

[Wigglesworth]

. . . As it is, we have the longest name of any of the forums.

That may mean this is truly the one, true church! :cool:

[Albion]

That may mean this is truly the one, true church! :cool:

The Anglican Old Catholic Church, that is.

On the other hand, maybe we should ask for
"Christ's One True Church--Anglican & Old Catholic."

That takes in the suggestions of lots of our folks. It shortens it as per Fr. Rick, uses the phrase Gitlance suggested, solves the problem of those who wanted STR rearranged to SRT, keeps the two churches separate entities, makes formal recognition of the OCs here, and is sure to hack off the OBOB folks who some have said didn't treat them awfully well in the past.

[Father Rick]

Even though I know it would be too long, I thought about "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church-Anglicans & Old Catholics"

[Wigglesworth]

I would like to express my personal appreciation, by the way, to the members of STR, the moderators, and Erwin, for supporting a change of the forum name. It does make a difference for me.

Thank you!

:wave:

[Albion]

Even though I know it would be too long, I thought about "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church-Anglicans & Old Catholics"

Beautiful!

If it's too long, it's not by much.

[Fish and Bread]

On the other hand, maybe we should ask for
"Christ's One True Church--Anglican & Old Catholic."


LOL. That would make my day. The Roman Catholics would adore us. ;)

Right now there is a thread going over there called "Vatican" Catholics that is really obnoxious, arrogant, and over the top and would provide a great case in point to anyone who would like to see an example of the stance that some Roman Catholics take towards us and why so many of us are upset. I generally try to avoid that forum as I find it bad for both my blood pressure and my spiritual health, but every once in a while I stop by thinking it can't possibly be as bad as I remember and then see a thread like that. They should really stop and think about the message they're sending non-Roman Catholics about their church. Granted, it is reflective of the opinions of a lot of non-Internet Roman Catholics I know, so it's not just a problem with OBOB, but certainly at least the tone of their own messages are within their capacity to control.

John

[SirTimothy]

Hah. I find it really funny that their rules state explicitly that they cannot state that the R/V Catholic church is the only true church... yet they do it all the time.

Timothy

[SirTimothy]

If it's too long, it's not by much.

The main CF title is longer...

Timothy

[Bonifatius]

Even though I know it would be too long, I thought about "One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church-Anglicans & Old Catholics"

I'm definitely in favour! :thumbsup: