Enter Holy Spirit, stage left

[Buho]

Wow, there's a fundamental forum too?! (Forum so big, so big... not as big as God, hehe)

Here's a question I've been stumped over. I even brought it before my group and we found some... things, but nothing conclusive came of the study. Pardon me, I'm not good at looking up scripture. I'm using BibleGateway's keyword search feature.

When does one recieve the Holy Spirit?

I think right off the bat there are two answers. (#1) A Calvinistic/Romans approach (correct me if I'm wrong) says one recieves the Holy Spirit when God metaphorically plants a seed in you. It will grow and days or years later the seedling will break the surface of the soil (a pinpoint moment usually coincidental with the "sinner's prayer"), at which point other Christians can see the Holy Spirit working in them.

(#2) Another easy answer is the Holy Spirit takes residence at the moment one truly, with their heart, believes what is in "the sinner's prayer" and commits ones life to the Lord. When the individual is "born again."

The Bible is not clear on which of the two cases above are true, but I've run across enough verses in my 9 months as a Christian (counting from #2) that I believe #1 is the case, which could have been 8 years ago for me.

I'm less sure on the underlying faith of this one, and how much biblical support this has, but I think some Christians believe (#3) the Holy Spirit indwells a person at the moment of baptism.

Now, here's where my real curiosity comes in. It's in Acts. (#4)

4.a Acts 2:1-4: All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit...as the Spirit enabled them.

4.b Acts 8:14-17: When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them. When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

4.c Acts 8:38: Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.

4.d Acts 10:44-48: While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.... [Peter says] "They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

4.e Acts 19:2-7: [Paul] asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when[a] you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied. Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied.

Now, every one of these passages is an eyewitness account of the Holy Spirit coming into people (except 4.c). Nowdays we just don't see that. Also to note, every one of these "conversion" experiences are quite instantaneous. My experience took place over about two weeks.

4.a: I'd like to treat this as a one-time special event, since the Spirit could not be on Earth at the same time Jesus was (some old-testament prophecy, if someone has a passage). This shows the Spirit came after #1, #2, and #3.

4.b: Highlights: They "accepted the word of God" first. They were baptized into Jesus's name second. Thirdly, an Apostle touched the believers and initiated the Spirit to come. Nowdays we do not have Apostles (people hand-chosen by God). Therefore, the Spirit must come to us via another means, otherwise none of us would have Him. Possibly, the Spirit would have come to these men sooner but waited for the Apostles to make an example (God does this a lot in Acts, to show us how we are to live). My questions, though: if this isn't a "special" event, how can one have accepted God, be baptized, yet still be without the Spirit. This exemplifies that the Spirit comes after #1, #2, and #3.

4.c: The Spirit was not shown here, even though Philip was whisked away instantly after this event. Studying the historics and culture around this chapter, you will see that the Enuch was interested in God before Philip arrived (showing signs of #1). He found salvation in the verse he was stuck on (a section in Isaiah (can't find passage) about salvation for circumcised people; an enouch is circumcised) but did not understand it. I assume when Philip vanished the Spirit was in the Enuch (#2 and #3).

4.d: I don't fully understand this passage. There appear to be three groups of people. Key order: first the Spirit came, second they were baptised in Jesus's name. This throws everything out of order. The spirit seems to have come after #1 and #2, but before #3.

4.e: "Baptism of repentance" sounds like #2 (not the same baptism as #3, new Christians!), so presumably they went through a #1 phase also. #3 was done, but again, the Spirit waited to come at the moment an Apostle touched the diciple. Special event? See my question in 4.b.

Sorry for the long post, but this really has got me wondering. How good is the book of Acts if it describes special events that do not apply today (no Apostles)? Final question: these are all examples of a visible Holy Spirit. Why is the Spirit invisible these days?

EDIT: I keep editing my post and adding more questions. One more: Why are the indwellings so fantastic?! Speaking of tounges, prophesizing.... Why are we saints not also blessed with these abilities?! #4.e were not even apostles, just diciples like us.

[e=mv^2]

Congratulations!
You have just shown the behavior of an individual thinking and feeling entity.

The spirit does what it does. It does it when it wishes.

There is no set formula for when the Holy Spirit will do something. It can not be forced or rushed.

That help?

Suggested reading:

The Fundamentals chapters 34, 35 and 36 (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/6528/fundcont.htm)
RE: Holy spirit

also chapters 43 45 and 48
RE: Salvation, grace and faith.

[Buho]

Well, uh, thanks e? I'd like to think I've been an individual thinker on theology for at least the past few years. (Individual thinking led me to leave the Lutheran church.) On the other hand, there's not much room for free thinking when the bible is explicit in certain areas (like the resurection).

Reading those chapters now....

No formula? :(

I had other questions interspersed in my original post too, by the way. Thanks for replying! :)

[e=mv^2]

Buho,
I think you may have misunderstood my point.

You have just shown the behavior of an individual thinking and feeling entity.

That thinking feeling entity is the Holy Spirit - not you. In the chapters listed earlier you can see that the fundamentalist thinking on the Holy Spirit is that of an individual thinking and feeling entity that is of one essence shared with the Father and the Son. Your post describes that almost to a t. See how the Spirit moves of its own accord? Coming into people when it chooses? I really was congratulating you for seeing this - it lines up with fundamentalist thinking quite well. Sorry if that was unclear (read the other way it seems a bit sarcastic - not my intention).

When does one recieve the Holy Spirit?
When it makes the choice for us to recieve it? When we are ready? Both?

My questions, though: if this isn't a "special" event, how can one have accepted God, be baptized, yet still be without the Spirit.
The spirit will do what it will do. We can not force it. Remember you are talking about God here.

Why are we saints not also blessed with these abilities?!
There are some that believe that the gifts are still active today. Not all of them are pentecostals but they are a large group that still adheres to the gifts.

Others believe that the gifts were special and only for the apostles to aid them in the initial spread of the gospel.

Some of us just don't know.

No formula?
Exactly. Receiving the Holy Spirit is not like chemistry. There is not a specific methodology for getting it.

these are all examples of a visible Holy Spirit. Why is the Spirit invisible these days?
I disagree. The only example of the Holy Spirit being visible that I am aware of is in at Jesus's baptism. I have been wrong before tho.
I think that the cases where people are described as recieving the Holy Spirit that there is some outward result of the reception - not that the Spirit was visibly entering someone. Maybe the apostles were able to tell when it happened?


That make any more sense now?

[Oscarr]

I enjoyed reading your long post.
Your questions are very perceptive.
You have obviously done a comprehensive search of the relevant references and thought about them deeply.

I have put many posts in the Spirit-filled/Charismatic area, and you can read them there if you want my opinions as to the more technical aspects of receiving the Holy Spirit and His gifts.

I will say that the Book of Acts show us what the church should be like. There is no reason why our churches should not operate in the same way as the NT church did. The trouble is that Christendom has gone through years of formalism and confusions of different denominations since the NT times.

I believe that the Holy Spirit is slowly restoring the NT pattern back into our churches. But He has to overcome the formalism and traditionalism that most of our churches have.

I have a view that might seem radical to a lot of Christians. Here it is:

God is a separate entity to the church.
He dwells outside of the organised church, and just because the organised church believes things, it doesn't mean that God automatically holds to them as well.

He inspired the New Testament, and He is the one who can interpret it the right way for you.
He might not agree with all the interpretations church leaders and other people might put on the Bible for you.

He wants you to seek Him for Himself - directly and not through your church. Not that you should break fellowship with your church or to stop learning from it.

What I am saying is that there are times when you need to separate yourself from other people and groups, and seek God alone. You might need to have a revelation of Him as a Person who is independent of all churches, so that you can perceive the Bible in a fresh and exciting way, not filter through your group leader or pastor.

I believe that then you will find the answers you are looking for, and you will discover God as an exciting Person who loves you and enjoys fellowshipping with you on a personal level. "This is life eternal, that I might know the Father and Jesus Christ whom He has sent." "Truly our fellowship is with God the Father and with His son Jesus Christ."

This talks of an exciting and wonderful personal walk with God where you get to know His heart and the joys of his fellowship.

[plmarquette]

baptism the first work of grace , holy spirit .... redemption , instruction , oversight
baptism of the spirit - acts 19.5 , hebrews ... empowerment , discipleship

[Buho]

When does one recieve the Holy Spirit?
When it makes the choice for us to recieve it? When we are ready? Both?
e, your post really helped me. I forgot about the thread over the past week, but the content I'm still thinking about and have discussed with others. Your response has really helped me understand the Holy Spirit more. No formula.

these are all examples of a visible Holy Spirit. Why is the Spirit invisible these days?
I disagree. The only example of the Holy Spirit being visible that I am aware of is in at Jesus's baptism. I have been wrong before tho. I think that the cases where people are described as recieving the Holy Spirit that there is some outward result of the reception - not that the Spirit was visibly entering someone. Maybe the apostles were able to tell when it happened?
Not visibly visible, I meant a physical clue to His presence. Acts 2, penticostal "whoosh"; Acts 8:14-17, an observed reception ("recieve"); Acts 10:44-48, observed enterence ("come"); Acts 19:2-7, observed enterence, speaking in tounges, prophezation (all verbs). Nobody I know or heard of today can pinpoint the Spirit's enterence and effect. This bums me a little.

There are some that believe that the gifts are still active today. Not all of them are pentecostals but they are a large group that still adheres to the gifts.
I noticed my roommate got a junk mailer from this Christian couple that prophesize and teach you or show you at a seminar how you can become a more active servant for God. Indeed it seems these gifts are still active. I can't help but to treat these displays with caution, though. There's a verse in the Bible that explains how to tell whether gifts come from God or the enemy. I'll keep my eyes open for these gifts, now that I know to look for them.

Thank you again for responding, e!

+ + + + +

Oscarr, that was an awesome post.

Acts shows us what the Church should be like.
I totally agree! One of my Christian friends is really striving to live according to the early Church and I am listening to him (I'm so, so new).

I believe that the Holy Spirit is slowly restoring the NT pattern back into our churches.
I'm less optimistic. Another of my Christian friends just got back from a Guatamala missions trip. While there, in an intense prayer session for many people, America, and their mission, God spoke to him, "Revelations 3:1." He was very confused by this and even suggested back to him perhaps something from Corinthians. God repeated "Revelations 3:1" two more times before he had to grab a Bible and look into it. It's Jesus's message to the Church at Sardis. What he got out of that was God knows America is spiritually dead, and urged him to "strengthen what remains and is about to die." Inspirational words from God that, a week later, is still modivating him. From my limited mortal observations, I'm seeing a general decline. I agree, that true-to-God remnants are increasing, but the percentage of the American population seems to be decreasing. So many churches are full of nonbelievers, many, many more still have rejected organized religion. Despite America's increased interest in spirituality, Christianity is either holding its own (population-wise) or is losing members. The fastest-growing religion is New Age (specifically Wicca which is doubling in membership every 30 months). Numerically, the fastest growing organized religion in America is Islam. (Source is probably www.religioustolerance.com; I researched these statistics a month ago with shoddy reference notes.)

D'oh, I'm rambling off topic. :doh:

I should have just left it with the summary, "awesome post." It's very inspiring and I agree completely that God wants me to seek him personally. God is indeed separate from the Church. We are wed to him, but are separate from him at the same time. We are His Body, yet we are still separate. The horizontal relationship with other Christians is important, but the vertical relationship with God is paramount.

+ + + + +

baptism the first work of grace , holy spirit .... redemption , instruction , oversight
baptism of the spirit - acts 19.5 , hebrews ... empowerment , discipleship
Uh, can you elaborate on this?

+ + + + +

Ultimately, I wish the Holy Spirit was more visible, recognizable, tangible, or active in our world. Sure, Christians can be more in-tune with God, thus relying more on the Holy Spirit, and in turn the Holy Spirit can work more in the Christian, but the paradox I run into often is that we can't come closer to God without His help!