Focus

[yod]

It's breaking my heart that most of the messianics I see on discussion boards are focused on the works of the Torah instead of the works of Yeshua.

I know the standard comeback...Yeshua is the Torah...blah, blah, blah....but He didn't condemn the Samaritan woman at the well for eating bacon.

The only people He ever had a critical word for were those who were forcing Torah (and their interpretation of it) upon the lost sheep.

We MUST get past this. The focus of a redeemed person is NOT keeping every jot and tittle of Levitical law. Our mission is BLESSING THE WORLD with the LOVE of Yeshua. To preach the gospel and make disciples.

How many of us beat our children or humiliate them with our words when they get it wrong? No matter how we are treated by others, we are to salt our words with grace and forgive one another.

We are turning our brothers (christians) against us over this stupidity. They have centuries of error to overcome and it won't happen overnight. Why would they want to be Torah observant when the Torah observant crowd is devoid of grace toward them?

It was Yeshua's final wish that we be as "one" so that the world would know HIM....not the Torah.

(please don't do the whole "Yeshua is Torah" bit because we are not saved by the Torah...which clearly proves that Yeshua is more than just that)

I'm not speaking against the Torah and I'm not speaking to any person in particular here. This is more a response to something I saw on Pal-Talk today and an overall observation which has been frustrating what the Lord wants to do in His WHOLE body.

If we are saved by grace through faith, and we are to call no man unclean whom the Lord has made clean, then what is the point of beating them up over the little stuff when the really BIG stuff requires that we work as one?

Even the worst churches have programs that are blessing the world. I see most churches feeding the poor, housing the naked, helping the lost. How many of us are helping them with this mission?

I see most messianic congregations teaching jots and tittles, jewish dancing, and how to act like a jew. While there is nothing wrong with this, if it is all we are doing then we have lost focus.

When we are doing the works that Yeshua has given us to do, they will know HIM and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Thanks for letting me vent...I was about to explode.
:wave: :kiss:


PS - Go Spurs!

[A_Pioneer]

While I almost agree with you, you are so right if salvation is the goal! In my view election is the goal.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

We are to be ministers not Judges! Tend the Sheep.

[yod]

who does the electing?

If it is the Father, then how does requiring/forcing Torah observance help?


In other words, I believe it is the work of the Ruach to convict....not our job.


We do the works of Yeshua (including but not limited to the Torah) and He will do the rest.

These disputes over words and works are accomplishing the opposite of that. We can feel like we've done something good....but the fruit of it is division or even death...so whose work have we actually done?

We are only called to be witnesses. Not prosecutors or judges. The witness never does anything but testify to what he/she has seen and known.

I love the Torah....but I am only called to tell every person I know about Yeshua.

The study of Torah is a maturity issue that only mature believers can deal with. Even then, we have to set the example of being mature ourselves.

Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.

[Ahavah]

It's breaking my heart that most of the messianics I see on discussion boards are focused on the works of the Torah instead of the works of Yeshua.

I know the standard comeback...Yeshua is the Torah...blah, blah, blah....but He didn't condemn the Samaritan woman at the well for eating bacon.

The only people He ever had a critical word for were those who were forcing Torah (and their interpretation of it) upon the lost sheep.

We MUST get past this. The focus of a redeemed person is NOT keeping every jot and tittle of Levitical law. Our mission is BLESSING THE WORLD with the LOVE of Yeshua. To preach the gospel and make disciples.

How many of us beat our children or humiliate them with our words when they get it wrong? No matter how we are treated by others, we are to salt our words with grace and forgive one another.

We are turning our brothers (christians) against us over this stupidity. They have centuries of error to overcome and it won't happen overnight. Why would they want to be Torah observant when the Torah observant crowd is devoid of grace toward them?

It was Yeshua's final wish that we be as "one" so that the world would know HIM....not the Torah.

(please don't do the whole "Yeshua is Torah" bit because we are not saved by the Torah...which clearly proves that Yeshua is more than just that)

I'm not speaking against the Torah and I'm not speaking to any person in particular here. This is more a response to something I saw on Pal-Talk today and an overall observation which has been frustrating what the Lord wants to do in His WHOLE body.

If we are saved by grace through faith, and we are to call no man unclean whom the Lord has made clean, then what is the point of beating them up over the little stuff when the really BIG stuff requires that we work as one?

Even the worst churches have programs that are blessing the world. I see most churches feeding the poor, housing the naked, helping the lost. How many of us are helping them with this mission?

I see most messianic congregations teaching jots and tittles, jewish dancing, and how to act like a jew. While there is nothing wrong with this, if it is all we are doing then we have lost focus.

When we are doing the works that Yeshua has given us to do, they will know HIM and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Thanks for letting me vent...I was about to explode.
:wave: :kiss:


http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_132.gifI know how ya feel..

[A_Pioneer]

He made the rules for Election.

De 6:17 ¶ You shall diligently keep the commandments of the LORD your God, and his testimonies, and his statutes, which he has commanded you.

Mt 19:17 And he said to him, "Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments."

Mt 7:21 ¶ "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Keep the faith, be saved. Keep the commandments and do His will, enter the Kingdom.

Jas 2:18 But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith.

Mt 22:12 and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless.

Have I made my point?

[AlikhnKwizad]

So we have faith, and we act in obediance upon that faith. We learn more, our faith increases, our obediance increases.

We cannot hold others acountable for what WE know. Others are accountable for what G-d has revealed to them.

So, at what point do we cross the line... from sharing knowledge or insight about G-d's calling in our lives... to putting a burden on others that G-d has not called them to carry?

And about telling everyone about Yeshua... Is that a personal call or are you saying it is what every believer in Messiah ought to do?

Sometimes I feel moved to express my faith in Messiah to an unbeliever... but most of the time, not. I am open to those who come to me for questions... but I don't seek out people to 'witness' to them. I wait & see what the Ruach is doing... 'Cause when I was younger I had the idea that I should constantly be out there trying to 'win souls' pounded into my head by people in the church...

I guess it comes down to the definition of "witnessing" & "evangelizing" ....
Being a living witness... and actively evangelizing...

You know, I don't have a problem with people going out on a street corner and speaking the word of G-d... those who are drawn to it will be drawn... and those who are not can just keep on walking..... But if a person invades the space of another with his bible thumping agressive condemning aproach... that's not cool.

In the end, G-d will draw his people to Himself... and those who are not His will scatter....

[Tishri1]

...

I see most messianic congregations teaching jots and tittles, jewish dancing, and how to act like a jew. While there is nothing wrong with this, if it is all we are doing then we have lost focus.

When we are doing the works that Yeshua has given us to do, they will know HIM and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

Thanks for letting me vent...I was about to explode.
:wave: :kiss:


PS - Go Spurs!Yod, please if you know of anyplace that has a happy balance of Torah (teaching and instruction...not LAW) and the kind of love that lays down own's own life ...PLEASE let me know....that is what I am looking for! :pray:

[Ahavah]

Yod, please if you know of anyplace that has a happy balance of Torah (teaching and instruction...not LAW) and the kind of love that lays down own's own life ...PLEASE let me know....that is what I am looking for! :pray:Come on Over to our house Tishri...;)

[Tishri1]

who does the electing?

If it is the Father, then how does requiring/forcing Torah observance help?


In other words, I believe it is the work of the Ruach to convict....not our job.


We do the works of Yeshua (including but not limited to the Torah) and He will do the rest.

These disputes over words and works are accomplishing the opposite of that. We can feel like we've done something good....but the fruit of it is division or even death...so whose work have we actually done?

We are only called to be witnesses. Not prosecutors or judges. The witness never does anything but testify to what he/she has seen and known.

I love the Torah....but I am only called to tell every person I know about Yeshua.

The study of Torah is a maturity issue that only mature believers can deal with. Even then, we have to set the example of being mature ourselves.

Knowledge puffs up but love edifies.where's the reps button?:scratch: it's that big ol thumb sticking up somewhere around here....hmmm must be stuck in a pie...well thumbs up from Tish then:thumbsup:... that was well said and heart felt Yod

[Tishri1]

Come on Over to our house Tishri...;):hug: I will! sorry I missed your last party, I was still kinda new and shy:blush:....

[ShirChadash]

I've said it before and I will say it until people on the internet get it...

we can not and do not know the fullness of, nor the ins and outs of, nor can we remotely accurately judge the richness of one another's faith walks and the entirety of the depth of one others' relationships with G-d based on nothing more than what they choose to post on often/regularly/sometimes on an internet message board. To assume so is immaturity, arrogance and presumption at its "finest".

What saddens me are people who run about assuming what others are "focussing" on in their walks (based on nothing more than a handful or even a forum full of posts), and neglecting to let Abba -- Who knows the hearts of each one of us and where we are truly "focussed" in our own walk -- be the One Who judges in this case... because we are ill-equipped to, in this medium of internet anonymity.

PS it's hard to be "One" with people who are constantly judging others for their expressions, thoughts, what they choose to share and post on and assuming that if they don't choose to post on other aspects of the faith-walk they simply mustn't HAVE those other aspects or "focus" on them. Then again, what do I know... apparently I am not welcome to join in on the fellowship, according to a few, so I must really have it all wrong, huh? Lovely. Thanks for letting me vent back. I have tried to keep my mouth shut too.

[plum]

Thanks for the posts, yod. I am encouraged and smiling :)

I yearn for passion for all of God's holy ways and especially passion for The Beloved! He fills up my heart.

[yod]

He made the rules for Election.Have I made my point?




Yes....yet it is still HIS decision to elect by grace.


---------------






I guess it comes down to the definition of "witnessing" & "evangelizing" ....
Being a living witness... and actively evangelizing...

You know, I don't have a problem with people going out on a street corner and speaking the word of G-d... those who are drawn to it will be drawn... and those who are not can just keep on walking..... But if a person invades the space of another with his bible thumping agressive condemning aproach... that's not cool.


Nilahk81


I enjoyed your response the most. You have honestly approached the question of how do we be a witness. For some it would be to take on an orthodox jewish lifestyle perhaps. For others it might be a motorcycle mechanic.

I can't tell you what He has called you to do no more than you can tell someone else.

But if either of us goes any farther than what He has told us, then we are in sin....and Lord help us if we are telling someone else to go farther than He has told them.


-----------------


What saddens me are people who run about assuming what others are "focussing" on in their walks (based on nothing more than a handful or even a forum full of posts),


You are swimming in de Nile, sister....

[ShirChadash]

You are swimming in de Nile, sister....

I assure you, you know nothing of my walk with my Abba or my life under the blood, remotely, Yod, if you think you can ascertain it or box it up, just from your viewing of the fact that I think my opinions regarding Torah Observance are the things which I am led to post about here. And if you presume to assume you do ;) , it is you who are swimming in da Nile, yessirree.

Like I said above, so I maintain. At its finest.

[yod]

you are in de Nile if you think this isn't a problem.


My post had nothing to do with you personally...but evidently you think the shoe fits?

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Shalom, I will say again, Shalom my Brothers and Sisters who are drawn to HaShem in the Love that Yeshua showed us and His obedience to HaShem's Torah to give us all a chance at eternal life considering we all don't deserve any,

I can say in my case and you all have seen how stern I can be. Partly from where I have been. You tend to be what grew up around, yet there are those who aren't affected by any outside influence and I for one give HaShem the praise due to that. I thank HIM for providing the Lamb as HE did the Ram for Abraham when he wasn't looking for a proper sacrifice, yet was obedient in carrying out what HaShem commanded him to do.

In the past three weeks this Friday, I have made many changes in my life. And yes, my Temper has gotten the worse of me. Guess when you RADICALLY MAKE CHANGES you tend to be on edge in everything. Well, I sure hope I am better now then I was then. I sure dont' need to smoke anything to feel good or relaxed any more and I can Thank Our Father through the Faith Yeshua showed us to live by. Yeshua is our Example that we all should mimic or rather BECOME, as Yeshua became Echad with HaShem, so can we. And Yeshua said that we would do even greater things then He did.
In order to get get these miracles and do these things that are even greater then the things Yeshua said we would, we have to have Faith. But we also know Faith isn't anything without Works. And even further still, you can't be filled with Ruach HaKodesh if your Evil inside and live a life that isn't approved by Our Father in Heaven. Yet, Ruach HaKodesh does touch peoples lives that have lived an evil life. Do you know how? Simple enough, There are those who are of the Faith that PRAY for that person. And that is the ONLY WAY CHANGE CAN COME. Not by our words to that person. Of course being an Example helps. But it comes down to PRAYER. And if you have Faith as small as a Mustered Seed you can MOVE MOUNTAINS. Just remember, WORKS is involved. We must live HOLY LIVES for HaShem told us to BE HOLY BECAUSE HE IS HOLY. How? TORAH. Yet, is there something missing here? I reckon so, it is called LOVE. You can walk like your in TORAH and people will see you are a LIAR, why? Because of your lack of LOVE. You can be the Pharisee of Pharisees as Paul was, but it takes someone else to MOVE THOSE MOUNTAINS out of that persons life so that person can Finally see the LOVE HaShem has for them.
I know I talk long and drawn out. That is my nature. I just hope I come through in all LOVE in Yeshua and in Obedience to Our Father HaShem in everything I say from here on. We can learn from our Jewish brothers and sisters about Torah since they have preserved them as Yeshua says. Just remember to TEST the Spirit's of everything. I have much to learn still.

I have seen many things I really hate that I have had in my life. And yes some do linger, but they won't be around long, since in my opinion my EYES to my Soul have finally been OPENED.

So what is our FOCUS? Our Focus should be on who Yeshua said our focus should be on and that is Our Father in Heaven. :bow: YHVH!!! BLESSED IS HIS NAME!!! ALL IN YESHUA's FAITH AND LOVE!!!

Shalom, Shalom and SHALOM!!! :groupray:

Tag

[ShirChadash]

Actually, LOL, my original post had very little to do with you, which I figured was fair since you said you weren't specifically speaking to anyone so could I. But apparently you think they shoe fits. :sorry:

you are in de Nile if you think this isn't a problem. If you think is it no problem to be assuming you know the depth and breadth and beauty and intimacy and fragrance -- or lack thereof -- of others' faith-walks based on nothing more than their posts on a message board... you are in denial. Period. And I have said this umpteen times here and to about 20 different posters over the time I have been here. It's not personal... it's something I see happening over and over. And it's ignorance and arrogance, based on an image people build of others from extremely little information.


My post had nothing to do with you personally...but evidently you think the shoe fits? Not really, but again I am one who will respond just because I think the message needs to be heard and it doesn't have to be about me, personally. Which you know, Yod. But, hey, I don't run around beating people over the head with what *I* think they should be posting on... and I think I can respond to posts here on this forum just because, whether those posts refer to me... and still do it with at least a modicum of integrity and reasoned responses.

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

First, I thank EVERYONE for posts they posted, no matter what I thought of them at the time, whether good or bad. Because in reading and seeing what others think and say does form some what who I am. Yet, in the reality of it all, in person makes a more perfect witness then just words. I thank all for their words because this is where I came across Messianic Judaism. I was Drawn To MJ becuase of mainly one person here that doesn't speak to often. Yet, many here have touched me as well, not to think less of your words of wisdom, or heart of gold, or faith, or love for others, or prayers you have prayed. Sometimes it has been hard, but I always came HERE to vent or to share or to admonish or to edify. Not always perfectly since I ain't perfected as of yet. But where I am weak HE is STRONG and I can only Thank HIM for that since HE is the ONE who knows the Hearts of all and has HIS RUACH HAKODESH MOVE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD to Touch those HE chooses to TOUCH. HE knows you and I inside and out. And we all do touch each other no matter how stern or how loving we are. HE uses the GOOD as well as the EVIL for HIS PURPOSE.

I can sit here and say I wish I was awakened up much earlier, yet, I have to say it is all IN HIS TIME. HE KNOWS BEST, we are HIS to do as HE Pleases. And of course we can go along with HIM or we can try to do everything by our OWN MIGHT, which you and I know isn't going any where even though we might think so.

So here we sit wondering what is next. Where do we find the TRUTH of what our FOCUS should be.

As you notice I have not posted any scriptures. Why? No reason. Maybe to drive you to look to see where these thoughts come from in Scripture. For if I live in TORAH then I am seeking HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Yet, I must also Seek in LOVE as Yeshua showed in His Life while with us on planet earth.

Faith and Love go hand in hand. Can you Love HaShem by being Disobedient? You can hash that out in your own walks with HaShem in Yeshua.

Shalom Aleichem,

Tag

[visionary]

I have always found that in witnessing, it is the witnessing of the life of Yeshua rather than the law that works. I make sure that it is in Yeshua that they see the law. When that is achieved in workings of the Holy Spirit upon the minds and hearts of the readers, then it will be blessed to not come back void. Without Yeshua it is all dead.

[AlikhnKwizad]

You know, I am really not caught up on how MJ's live out their faith- what they do or don't do...but when it comes to Jewish people who have become 'christian' and are brainwashed into a slight form of anti-semitisim... That bugs me. REALLY bugs me.

Do I lack love in this? You know, I would hate it even if it had nothing to do with Jews... I don't like the fact that Native Americans had to wear stiff itchy "white mans" clothing and were forced to abandon their heritage. Now, getting rid of the witch doctor stuff... yeah, of course... but making them be something they are not... It's the same with any people group. It really makes me mad.

But in the end, you've just got to let them be. If G-d moves on their heart- then Baruch HaShem! And if not- well, there's nothing you can do. Let it go. *Sigh*
(had to vent.)

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Messiah has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. Behold, I, Sha'ul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Messiah will profit you nothing. Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole Torah. You are alienated from Messiah, you who desire to be justified by the Torah. You have fallen away from grace. For we, through the Spirit, by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Messiah Yeshua neither circumcision amounts to anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith working through love. You were running well! Who interfered with you that you should not obey the truth? This persuasion is not from him who calls you. A little yeast grows through the whole lump. I have confidence toward you in the Lord that you will think no other way. But he who troubles you will bear his judgment, whoever he is. But I, brothers, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been removed. I wish that those who disturb you would cut themselves off. For you, brothers, were called for freedom. Only don't use your freedom for gain to the flesh, but through love be servants to one another. For the whole Torah is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you don't consume one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you won't fulfill the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, that you may not do the things that you desire. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are obvious, which are: adultery, sexual immorality, uncleanness, lustfulness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, strife, jealousies, outbursts of anger, rivalries, divisions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these; of which I forewarn you, even as I also forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the Kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, shalom, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Messiah have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. If we live by the Spirit, let's also walk by the Spirit. Let's not become conceited, provoking one another, and envying one another. (Gal 5:1-26 HNV)

Now where do I and others stand?

[Bon]

The reason I post on this forum is because I grew up basically hidden from the outside world.....(figuratively, not literally).

Our way of life was strange and unusual to those around us, who were completely uninterested in anything of the Spirit.

"Why dont you eat pork?......"
"Because it says so in the bible."
"Oh! how wierd!....you dont know what you're missing out on."
"Mmmmm!" :scratch:

Then I joined a congregation of Messianic believers in Sydney. WOW!
REAL FELLOWSHIP, WITH REAL PEOPLE OF LIKE-MINDEDNESS!....I WAS IN HEAVEN.

Then it fell apart, and I moved interstate to Melbourne, and I'm flying solo again.

Then I discovered the internet and then Christian Forums' Messianic Judaism forum. Again WOW! REAL INTERACTION, WITH REAL PEOPLE OF LIKE-MINDEDNESS.

Here I can learn, (occasionally teach), discuss, (occasionally debate) and have struck up some lovely on-line friendships with other regulars who, like me, just want to be able to talk about and share with other's, their favourite topic in the world.

....and just like Zemmirah said, what you see here is only a very tiny facet of each person's personallity, and what they are all about.

I certainly come here to get what I can never hope to get when I walk outside my front door.

Shalom from Bon

[visionary]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Bon again.Hard to give you a rep... so just letting you know that is exactly the way I feel.

[yod]

Here I can learn, (occasionally teach), discuss, (occasionally debate) and have struck up some lovely on-line friendships with other regulars who, like me, just want to be able to talk about and share with other's, their favourite topic in the world.

....and just like Zemmirah said, what you see here is only a very tiny facet of each person's personallity, and what they are all about.

I certainly come here to get what I can never hope to get when I walk outside my front door.



First of all, I am not trying to criticize of be critical of anyone personally. I'm addressing "messianic discussion groups" and an overall attitude of "We have it right, you christians don't know anything" OR "We please God but you christians don't"

If you don't think a problem exists in our messianic attitude, then you have led a sheltered life.

You don't see this attitude in a lot of actual congregations. In congregations, they generally have to flesh these things out between people to keep harmony. Not so in discussion groups because you enjoy complete anonymity.

And I posted that here but it was more in response to the arguing in a chatroom at PalTalk where neither the christians or the messianics were listening to each other. It was a battle of who is "right" but they were being very un-Messiah-like in proving their point.

And it's always over interpretation of Torah. There is a difference between honest ignorance and arrogant disobedience....and those things happens on both sides of this discussion. We are also guilty of disobedience to Torah so it's just a matter of degree.

Until we start keeping every single law we should not beat christians over the head with the Torah.


notice I'm saying "we" and "us"

[yod]

You know, I am really not caught up on how MJ's live out their faith- what they do or don't do...but when it comes to Jewish people who have become 'christian' and are brainwashed into a slight form of anti-semitisim... That bugs me. REALLY bugs me.

Do I lack love in this? You know, I would hate it even if it had nothing to do with Jews... I don't like the fact that Native Americans had to wear stiff itchy "white mans" clothing and were forced to abandon their heritage. Now, getting rid of the witch doctor stuff... yeah, of course... but making them be something they are not... It's the same with any people group. It really makes me mad.

But in the end, you've just got to let them be. If G-d moves on their heart- then Baruch HaShem! And if not- well, there's nothing you can do. Let it go. *Sigh*
(had to vent.)



I'm not really sure what your point was...but it dovetails into mine.

Too many messianics expect christians to become like us before we can consider them truly as equal brothers. This attitude is wrong. Call no man unclean whom the Lord has made clean.

We must be able to honestly assess the situation before a solution can be found.

I'm not railing against jews remaining as jews. I am railing against turning gentiles into rabbinic orthodox jews.

This was never the intent of the Torah.

[AlikhnKwizad]

I was saying how it frustrated ME when genetically Jewish people accept Jesus and then ditch their calling as Jews... with the whole, let's eat pork, celebrate christmas, cause we are not under the law.

Right now I have gotten myself into a debate with a Jewish person who has become christian and believes all that OT stuff no longer aplies...

It makes me crazy- because that doctrine has been so pounded into the christian thinking... that even Jews would readily give up their heritage to be 'saved.' (believing you cannot have both)

So, I'd like to ask everyone to check out the debate (which I really don't even want to have in the first place!!!) and respond to it.

But then, should I just cut it short & walk away? I mean, what's the use? What's the point?

When do you engage in debate & when do you not?

The topic is "The chosen People- This bugs me." So, yeah, I'm going to feel strongly about what scripture says reguarding the topic... And I hate the anti-semetic slant some christian theology has in it today...

And now we've gone off on Peter not eating Kosher and kosher no longer applies... and freed from the law... and nailed it all to the cross... etc.

So do I walk away- or do I get into it? Or maybe I just ask you guys to go there and give some imput! :)

[AlikhnKwizad]

Oh, and yes- I totally see your point and agree...

To me, telling a gentile to be like a jew is like the "white man" trying to convert the "native" to his paticular belief system & requireing the native to give up part of who he is- his culture, heritage, etc.

My question is about the 'christian' Jew.... the one who has bought into the lie that the Torah has been nailed to the cross.

Is there any reason we should or should not engage in a debate with them???

[A_Pioneer]

Is not this our goal?

31 ¶ Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, "If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples,

32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

Isn't "My word" Torah?

Anyone see the news item about "Evangelic Christians" at the Air Force Academy?

[AlikhnKwizad]

Well, yeah- I have a burning in my heart to see the sons of Avraham gathered again- standing firm in their calling as Jews and in the Messiah of Israel.

This guy is saying some crazy stuff... Does anyone want to check out the thread & offer insight???

He is saying it was because of the Jewish believers hypocracy in going back under the law that the temple was destroyed...:eek:

And I don't mean to take this off the OP... so I can start another thread on this if necessary....

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Counsel in the heart of man is like deep water; but a man of understanding will draw it out. Many men claim to be men of unfailing love, but who can find a faithful man? A righteous man walks in integrity. Blessed are his children after him. A king who sits on the throne of judgment scatters away all evil with his eyes. Who can say, "I have made my heart pure. I am clean and without sin?" Differing weights and differing measures, both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD. Even a child makes himself known by his doings, whether his work is pure, and whether it is right. (Pro 20:5-11 HNV)

Sha'ul, an emissary of Messiah Yeshua according to the mitzvah of God our Savior, and Messiah Yeshua our hope; to Timothy, my true child in faith: Grace, mercy, and shalom, from God our Father and Messiah Yeshua our Lord. As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might charge certain men not to teach a different doctrine, neither to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which cause disputes, rather than God's stewardship, which is in faith-- but the end of the charge is love, out of a pure heart and a good conscience and unfeigned faith; from which things some, having missed the mark, have turned aside to vain talking; desiring to be teachers of the Torah, though they understand neither what they say, nor about what they strongly affirm. But we know that the Torah is good, if a man uses it lawfully, as knowing this, that Torah is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave-traders, for liars, for perjurers, and for any other thing contrary to the sound doctrine; according to the Good News of the glory of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. And I thank him who enabled me, Messiah Yeshua our Lord, because he counted me faithful, appointing me to service; although I was before a blasphemer, a persecutor, and insolent. However, I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief. The grace of our Lord abounded exceedingly with faith and love which is in Messiah Yeshua. The saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance, that Messiah Yeshua came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. However, for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first, Yeshua the Messiah might display all his patience, for an example of those who were going to believe in him for eternal life. Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amein. (1Ti 1:1-17 HNV)

I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men: for kings and all who are in high places; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Yeshua, who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times; to which I was appointed a preacher and an emissary (I am telling the truth in Messiah, not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting. In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing; but (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works. (1Ti 2:1-10 HNV)

But the Spirit says expressly that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons, through the hypocrisy of men who speak lies, branded in their own conscience as with a hot iron; forbidding marriage and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be rejected, if it is received with thanksgiving. For it is sanctified through the word of God and prayer. If you instruct the brothers of these things, you will be a good servant of Messiah Yeshua, nourished in the words of the faith, and of the good doctrine which you have followed. But refuse profane and old wives' fables. Exercise yourself toward godliness. For bodily exercise has some value, but godliness has value in all things, having the promise of the life which is now, and of that which is to come. This saying is faithful and worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we have set our trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. Command and teach these things. Let no man despise your youth; but be an example to those who believe, in word, in your way of life, in love, in spirit, in faith, and in purity. Until I come, pay attention to reading, to exhortation, and to teaching. Don't neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the elders. Be diligent in these things. Give yourself wholly to them, that your progress may be revealed to all. Pay attention to yourself, and to your teaching. Continue in these things, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. (1Ti 4:1-16 HNV)

Don't receive an accusation against an elder, except at the word of two or three witnesses. Those who sin, reprove in the sight of all, that the rest also may be in fear. I charge you in the sight of God, and Messiah Yeshua, and the chosen angels, that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing by partiality. Lay hands hastily on no one, neither be a participant in other men's sins. Keep yourself pure. Be no longer a drinker of water only, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. Some men's sins are evident, preceding them to judgment, and some also follow later. In the same way also there are good works that are obvious, and those that are otherwise can't be hidden. (1Ti 5:19-25 HNV)

If anyone teaches a different doctrine, and doesn't consent to sound words, the words of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness, he is conceited, knowing nothing, but obsessed with arguments, disputes, and word battles, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, constant friction of people of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. Withdraw yourself from such. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into the world, and we certainly can't carry anything out. But having food and clothing, we will be content with that. But those who are determined to be rich fall into a temptation and a snare and many foolish and harmful lusts, such as drown men in ruin and destruction. For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But you, man of God, flee these things, and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, and gentleness. Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold of the eternal life to which you were called, and you confessed the good confession in the sight of many witnesses. I charge you before God, who gives life to all things, and before Messiah Yeshua, who before Pontius Pilate testified the good confession, that you keep the mitzvah without spot, blameless, until the appearing of our Lord Yeshua the Messiah; which in its own times he will show, who is the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and eternal power. Amein. (1Ti 6:3-16 HNV)

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

My last post is just informative for all to read. Not pointing at anyone.

The Spirit of God came on `Azaryah the son of `Oded: and he went out to meet Asa, and said to him, Hear you me, Asa, and all Yehudah and Binyamin: the LORD is with you, while you are with him; and if you seek him, he will be found of you; but if you forsake him, he will forsake you. Now for a long season Yisra'el was without the true God, and without a teaching Kohen, and without law: But when in their distress they turned to the LORD, the God of Yisra'el, and sought him, he was found of them. In those times there was no shalom to him who went out, nor to him who came in; but great vexations were on all the inhabitants of the lands. They were broken in pieces, nation against nation, and city against city; for God did vex them with all adversity. But be you strong, and don't let your hands be slack; for your work shall be rewarded. When Asa heard these words, and the prophecy of `Oded the prophet, he took courage, and put away the abominations out of all the land of Yehudah and Binyamin, and out of the cities which he had taken from the hill country of Efrayim; and he renewed the altar of the LORD, that was before the porch of the LORD. He gathered all Yehudah and Binyamin, and those who sojourned with them out of Efrayim and Menasheh, and out of Shim`on: for they fell to him out of Yisra'el in abundance, when they saw that the LORD his God was with him. So they gathered themselves together at Yerushalayim in the third month, in the fifteenth year of the reign of Asa. They sacrificed to the LORD in that day, of the spoil which they had brought, seven hundred oxen and seven thousand sheep. They entered into the covenant to seek the LORD, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul; and that whoever would not seek the LORD, the God of Yisra'el, should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. They swore to the LORD with a loud voice, and with shouting, and with trumpets, and with cornets. All Yehudah rejoiced at the oath; for they had sworn with all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was found of them: and the LORD gave them rest round about. Also Ma`akhah, the mother of Asa the king, he removed from being queen, because she had made an abominable image for an Asherah; and Asa cut down her image, and made dust of it, and burnt it at the brook Kidron. But the high places were not taken away out of Yisra'el: nevertheless the heart of Asa was perfect all his days. He brought into the house of God the things that his father had dedicated, and that he himself had dedicated, silver, and gold, and vessels. There was no more war to the five and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa. (2Ch 15:1-19 HNV)

Am I saying that we can do all the above without Yeshua? Am I? Didn't Yeshua say the words He speaks aren't His own? So who did Yeshua tell us to SEEK? Not His own Kingdom did He? Or His Own Righteousness?
Didn't He say:


In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. Pray like this: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amein.' "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. "Moreover when you fast, don't be like the hypocrites, with sad faces. For they disfigure their faces, that they may be seen by men to be fasting. Most certainly I tell you, they have received their reward. But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face; so that you are not seen by men to be fasting, but by your Father who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you. "Don't lay up treasures for yourselves on the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consume, and where thieves don't break through and steal; for where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can't serve both God and Mammon. Therefore, I tell you, don't be anxious for your life: what you will eat, or what you will drink; nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food, and the body more than clothing? See the birds of the sky, that they don't sow, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns. Your heavenly Father feeds them. Aren't you of much more value than they? "Which of you, by being anxious, can add one moment to his lifespan? Why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin, yet I tell you that even Shlomo in all his glory was not dressed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, won't he much more clothe you, you of little faith? "Therefore don't be anxious, saying, 'What will we eat?', 'What will we drink?' or, 'With what will we be clothed?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. But seek first God's Kingdom, and his righteousness; and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore don't be anxious for tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Each day's own evil is sufficient. (Mat 6:7-34 HNV)



Did Yeshua say for us to pray to Him? Please correct me if I am wrong. For that is your duty as a believer and mine as well. Shall we learn from those who teach lawlessness how ever slight that is? Or shall we correct and teach those who live in lawlessness how ever so slight that is?

Shalom,

Tag

[Tishri1]

I was saying how it frustrated ME when genetically Jewish people accept Jesus and then ditch their calling as Jews... with the whole, let's eat pork, celebrate christmas, cause we are not under the law.

Right now I have gotten myself into a debate with a Jewish person who has become christian and believes all that OT stuff no longer aplies...

It makes me crazy- because that doctrine has been so pounded into the christian thinking... that even Jews would readily give up their heritage to be 'saved.' (believing you cannot have both)

So, I'd like to ask everyone to check out the debate (which I really don't even want to have in the first place!!!) and respond to it.

But then, should I just cut it short & walk away? I mean, what's the use? What's the point?

When do you engage in debate & when do you not?

The topic is "The chosen People- This bugs me." So, yeah, I'm going to feel strongly about what scripture says reguarding the topic... And I hate the anti-semetic slant some christian theology has in it today...

And now we've gone off on Peter not eating Kosher and kosher no longer applies... and freed from the law... and nailed it all to the cross... etc.

So do I walk away- or do I get into it? Or maybe I just ask you guys to go there and give some imput! :)I sure do understand how both of you feel, this concerns me too...
So do I walk away- or do I get into it? This has been my conviction since I stumbled into MJ (8+ years ago)...after the initial ranting I did ("WHY WEREN'T WE TAUGHT THIS BEFORE!"and"THERE ARE NO CHRISTMAS TREES IN HEAVEN") which probably lasted 6 mos - 1 year (because I kept meeting others who were in the ranting stage and that perpetuated my problem.)

Well after I repented from that attitude, I realised that deep down inside I had an intense love and need to reach out to my church as I truely believe we were never suppose to be separated from our roots and each other.

Well I think that this is where you come in Yod...

My focus thus far has been has been helping the Church to see it's roots (fellowship is what I went over board in and I admit I need help here)

When I am face to face with someone my approach is like this...I pray "Father what does this person need to hear TODAY", (not how much of my Divine Knowlege can I shove into them today) and usually it is nothing:sorry: or just one thing...that's it. And I would never have guessed what that need was if I hadn't prayed for them first. This has been "my Torah" (law) for a long time

On Forums I try to do this too...I always pray when I know the other person is not MJ or new to it. But it is harder as you may start out great with one person (praying and giving just what they need) and then other people come in and ....well I think you know what I mean....it's just harder for me...

Yod I really think your onto something here...I think if we all share our feelings the way you have been sharing then we would all learn something


BUT

I think you stopped to soon...I would love to hear more

I have alot to learn.....

[A_Pioneer]

Yes....yet it is still HIS decision to elect by grace.

....This comment just won't leave me!

I think Hellenistic Christianity has been quite successful! If Election is by Grace then it is same as Salvation?

Again, I will say, I ALMOST agree, but the criteria is much different for Election than that of Salvation!

Why? Then are there so many verses pertaining to reward? Why, all the references to doing?
Lu 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"

Lu 19:17 "And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’
Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
2 Pe.1:5 ¶ For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

Faith leads to salvation by grace, grace leads to obedience, obedience leads to election. Yeah, It is a gift! But a gift for faithfulness. By grace through obedience.
Because you are faithful in a little, He may reward you with much.

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

This comment just won't leave me!

I think Hellenistic Christianity has been quite successful! If Election is by Grace then it is same as Salvation?

Again, I will say, I ALMOST agree, but the criteria is much different for Election than that of Salvation!

Why? Then are there so many verses pertaining to reward? Why, all the references to doing?
Lu 17:10 So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, ‘We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty.’"

Lu 19:17 "And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’
Mr 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
2 Pe.1:5 ¶ For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall;

Faith leads to salvation by grace, grace leads to obedience, obedience leads to election. Yeah, It is a gift! But a gift for faithfulness. By grace through obedience.
Because you are faithful in a little, He may reward you with much.


Well said. I can say from my perspective I lack in some of those areas and am embarrased because of my lack. The work Yeshua started in me will one day flurish and will spill over if I will just let go of all things that hinder.

Shalom,

Tag

[Bruce101]

I did not read through all of the posts, but I would like to say that there are two groups of people that I have observed as being gracious and non-judgemental.
Messianics and saved Bikers.
Most others Bible believing Christians tend to be somewhat if not outright judgemental and narrow-minded.
Notice that I said Bible believeing.
Bruce

[Andyman_1970]

Most others Bible believing Christians tend to be somewhat if not outright judgemental and narrow-minded.


I agree........................ :(

[Ahavah]

Messianics and saved Bikers.
BruceHahahttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/900.gifAre you talking about Shimshon again?;)

[visionary]

Probably has something to do with that free spirit....Wheeeeeeee

[Henaynei]

Yeshua condemed the actions of those who laid on the backs of others burdens they themselves would not carry and those who engaged in the observances to gain glory fromk men ...

and yet He said "if you love me obey My Mitzvot" - and "So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

[A_Pioneer]

"Rusty old halo, skimpy white cloud, a robe so wooly, that it scratches!"
"Don't want no mansion."
Let's all strive to be the least in the kingdom of heaven. LOL
"But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven."
My goal.

[Velcro]

Please pardon the interruption:

"Rusty old halo, skimpy white cloud, a robe so wooly, that it scratches!"

That tweaks my memory. What are the rest of the words?

[yod]

Faith leads to salvation by grace, grace leads to obedience, obedience leads to election. Yeah, It is a gift! But a gift for faithfulness. By grace through obedience.
Because you are faithful in a little, He may reward you with much.



I don't see how you think election has anything to do with reward?

How faithful was Israel for most of it's history? Why not the Hittites?

Has Israel been forever cast off for unfaithfulness?




I wish I could believe that God "elects" me for the good works I have done....or even the bad works I've avoided...because that would give me a sense of control over God. A desire for control is the root of all "religion"

My reading of the Brit Chadashah is that we are saved by grace through faith...and that NOT of ourselves.


When we receive the mind of Messiah, we will spend our time blessing others instead of focusing on Torah to regulate ourselves. THIS is the fulfillment of Torah by the Spirit because love covers a multitude of sin.

If messianics would show THAT to christians we wouldn't have to debate the details. Most do...

[visionary]

I don't see how you think election has anything to do with reward?

How faithful was Israel for most of it's history? Why not the Hittites?

Has Israel been forever cast off for unfaithfulness?

I wish I could believe that God "elects" me for the good works I have done....or even the bad works I've avoided...because that would give me a sense of control over God. A desire for control is the root of all "religion"

My reading of the Brit Chadashah is that we are saved by grace through faith...and that NOT of ourselves.

When we receive the mind of Messiah, we will spend our time blessing others instead of focusing on Torah to regulate ourselves. THIS is the fulfillment of Torah by the Spirit because love covers a multitude of sin.

If messianics would show THAT to christians we wouldn't have to debate the details. Most do...We can not be a blessing to others if we know not Torah to regulate ourselves, there must be a balance. It is true that the fulfillment of Torah by the Spirit in love does cover a multitude of sins.

We are not to give christian children strong meat, for there are many still spoon feed, and even still nurse at their mother's breast. We are to recognise what age in spiritual maturity they are and nuture them accordingly. Then there are the guardians of the gates and keepers of the rituals who need to be awaken to what they are keeping or guarding so that they may realise that God never asked them to do that.

To be elected has responsibilities that go with it, and thus faithfully performed has its own rewards. They are the stewards of the gifts and talents and with those gifts and talents faithfully done the Will of Yeshua.

You asked How faithful was Israel for most of it's history? Why not the Hittites?It was the oracles of God that were entrusted to the Jews, which they, in failing at all other things, did keep the Oracles at least.
Romans 3:2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God. So was God at times protecting the Word of God more than the unrighteous, probably. If another nation was more faithful, for example, let's say that the Philistines when there were holders of the Ark of the Testament, became better keepers than the Israelites ever were, what would God have done? Would he have rewarded the faithful in that nation?

[A_Pioneer]

Visionary said almost all. I will add, read "The Wisdom in the Hebrew Alphabet" by Rabbi Michael Munk.

Thanks, Visionary. You said it very well.

It was Y H V H that Chose Israel. Elect.

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
Is. 59:20 "And he will come to Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD. 21 "And as for me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: my spirit which is upon you, and my words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children’s children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore."

[yod]

We can not be a blessing to others if we know not Torah to regulate ourselves, there must be a balance.

Yes...agreed. Balance comes with proper focus.






You asked
http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-left.gifQuote:http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-top-right-10.gifHow faithful was Israel for most of it's history? Why not the Hittites?http://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-left.gifhttp://www3.christianforums.com/images/quotes/quot-bot-right.gif


It was the oracles of God that were entrusted to the Jews, which they, in failing at all other things, did keep the Oracles at least.





It was a rhetorical question. My point is that it is He who elects and no one has been his counselor.

Have you considered the hippopatomus?

[Kriss]

Thank you Yod. I have been visiting this MJ forum and reading the post here. And I wanted to comment on this thread “Focus”. I was considering becoming a Messianic But your right Yod. :thumbsup:

My reading of the Brit Chadashah is that we are saved by grace through faith...and that NOT of ourselves.

We are saved by grace. And there is no “need” for nothing more. What is the point is “doing” all this other stuff. If we keep the law of Christ and love others as our self it covers every thing. Thanks again Yod :thumbsup: I almost got put into bondage. Thank you Jesus. :amen: and :amen:

[Henaynei]

as you read you will discover that all Messianics (that I know) who keep Torah do so for sanctification not justification ... while justification is preeminent - sanctification is commanded ;)

[ShirChadash]

Thank you Yod. I have been visiting this MJ forum and reading the post here. And I wanted to comment on this thread “Focus”. I was considering becoming a Messianic But your right Yod. :thumbsup:



We are saved by grace. And there is no “need” for nothing more. What is the point is “doing” all this other stuff. If we keep the law of Christ and love others as our self it covers every thing. Thanks again Yod :thumbsup: I almost got put into bondage. Thank you Jesus. :amen: and :amen:

And...

there ya go.

[Henaynei]

sorry - erroneous post

[ShirChadash]

Thank you Yod. I have been visiting this MJ forum and reading the post here. And I wanted to comment on this thread “Focus”. I was considering becoming a Messianic But your right Yod. :thumbsup:



We are saved by grace. And there is no “need” for nothing more. What is the point is “doing” all this other stuff. If we keep the law of Christ and love others as our self it covers every thing. Thanks again Yod :thumbsup: I almost got put into bondage. Thank you Jesus. :amen: and :amen:

You know what I find very sad about this? "Doing all this other stuff" is part and parcel of what G-d set down for us to do, to practice, to learn, to know, to understand and delve into in order to understand Him, and His Son -- Who He is, What He does and why, His life, His G-d-given purpose, His teachings. You cannot understand the "New" Testament and understand it correctly in its correct context until you intimately know the "Old" -- which was the ONLY written Word that Y'shua and His first followers knew and taught from -- and lived by.

"And there ya go" -- what I mean by this is... well there you go, if you remove Y'shua's Torah from your walk, your understanding, your learning of Who Y'shua really is and what He really intended to be the faith-path His followers continue on in following Him... if you divorce Torah from your Messiah... then you have a nice broad path of Christianity to walk within and choose, all of them with legalisms of their own that most people do not see, because then "MJ" is nothing more than Christianity with some Hebrew thrown in here and there -- so there is no point in embracing it. Christianity will do -- it'll get you where you are going. But is it His intended plan for you? Only He knows and He is able to bring you where He wants you to be as you are in relationship with Him. But He did say that His Spirit is given us to lead us into ALL Truth. Not just part Truth. Not just some Truth. All Truth.

I personally don't know how removing the teachings of the faith OF Y'shua from our faith IN Y'shua can possibly be twisted to mean we are in "All of the Truth". Just my .02

[Kriss]

Then why can’t you all [messianic]. Agree on this? It seams to me, that you guys argue a lot about this. And I have seen where some have left this forum because of all the disagreement. I see in my Church and other Church’s fight and bickering. And I come here and see the Messianic people doing the same thing. One Messianic will say to keep the law, another Messianic will say it’s not necessary. I have read where someone here was kicked out of his
Messianic church for keeping the law. I’m sorry but why would someone want to be Messianic when you look just like the Church. I’m sorry if I seem rude but I have been reading lots of post here and this is what I see. :cry:
In Jesus name.


You know what I find very sad about this? "Doing all this other stuff" is part and parcel of what G-d set down for us to do, to practice, to learn, to know, to understand and delve into in order to understand Him, and His Son -- Who He is, What He does and why, His life, His G-d-given purpose, His teachings. You cannot understand the "New" Testament and understand it correctly in its correct context until you intimately know the "Old" -- which was the ONLY written Word that Y'shua and His first followers knew and taught from -- and lived by.

"And there ya go" -- what I mean by this is... well there you go, if you remove Y'shua's Torah from your walk, your understanding, your learning of Who Y'shua really is and what He really intended to be the faith-path His followers continue on in following Him... if you divorce Torah from your Messiah... then you have a nice broad path of Christianity to walk within and choose, all of them with legalisms of their own that most people do not see, because then "MJ" is nothing more than Christianity with some Hebrew thrown in here and there -- so there is no point in embracing it. Christianity will do -- it'll get you where you are going. But is it His intended plan for you? Only He knows and He is able to bring you where He wants you to be as you are in relationship with Him. But He did say that His Spirit is given us to lead us into ALL Truth. Not just part Truth. Not just some Truth. All Truth.

I personally don't know how removing the teachings of the faith OF Y'shua from our faith IN Y'shua can possibly be twisted to mean we are in "All of the Truth". Just my .02
[QUOTE]

[Velcro]

Kriss, if you came here looking for human perfection, you came to the wrong place. If you came here looking for a belief in which everyone is in total agreement on how to live, you came to the wrong place. If you came here looking for a belief in which everyone is in total agreement on how to obey G-d, you came to the wrong place.

We are still on the earth and are not perfect in every way yet, and we are still finding our way in a belief system that was completely neglected for nearly two thousand years. If you are looking for perfection in any religious institution or belief, remember that old saying you have heard for years: if you find a perfect one with understanding and fellowship, then join it, it will no longer be perfect.

When we disagree, most of us just say, "All right; that is how you believe. and this is how I believe" and we go on about our personal business. We do not hold differences over one anothers' heads, for the most of us -- in fact, for those of us still here and even for some no longer here.

Regarding not falling into bondage, the definition of bondage is often merely in human perception. I love Torah. It is is G-d's instruction, and it is not bondage to me. I love the Sabbath He gave us, I love the festivals, and I love to study His Word, seeking for Truth, because it is important to me beyond words. These are not bondage for me nor for Messianic believers.

Warning: this is going to sound harsh.
What would be bondage to me? Returning to the church. I told my husband (a Christian) yesterday that should my shul disband for any reason, I could not return to the church. It would be more bondage than I could bear. I told him I would stay home and study as well as use the internet to contact other Messianics in order to expand my horizons. For fellowship (in order not to neglect gathering together), I would meet with other believers as often as I could for interaction.

[A_Pioneer]

It is called "pilpul" peppered speech, or iron sharpening iron, refinning silver, seeking qodesh/holy. Mitzvot/commanment
IMO one who comes to Hebrew Root from Christianity, must "Dump the Garbage".
Dr Karl Coke is fond of saying "you should be smart enough to eat the fish and discard the bones."
Ex 22:31 "And you shall be holy men to Me: you shall not eat meat torn by beasts in the field; you shall throw it to the dogs.
1Pe 1:16 because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

[Sephania]

My reading of the Brit Chadashah is that we are saved by grace through THIS is the fulfillment of Torah by the Spirit because love covers a multitude of sin.

If messianics would show THAT to christians we wouldn't have to debate the details. Most do...

Why is that so over abused? Just whose love was this speaking of? Can our love for someone covers their sins, can it cover ours? No, Only Yeshua's blood did that.

[Sephania]

Yes, Kris , we are a unholy bunch, refusing to be Holy,set apart from the world and its interpretations of the word, instead of belieiving what the word of G-d says is Holy or not. :(

[ShirChadash]

Then why can’t you all [messianic]. Agree on this? It seams to me, that you guys argue a lot about this. And I have seen where some have left this forum because of all the disagreement. I see in my Church and other Church’s fight and bickering. And I come here and see the Messianic people doing the same thing. One Messianic will say to keep the law, another Messianic will say it’s not necessary. I have read where someone here was kicked out of his
Messianic church for keeping the law. I’m sorry but why would someone want to be Messianic when you look just like the Church. I’m sorry if I seem rude but I have been reading lots of post here and this is what I see. :cry:
In Jesus name.


I don't think you are rude at all -- I think you are right.

But I think that the friction you have seen here and elsewhere perhaps, occurs when people refuse to understand that G-d is ABLE to convict and to convince His children -- as individuals -- to express their faith in Him as individuals, NOT as clones of one another who have to be unanimous in all things but rather as individuals who are in UNITY despite our differing views. He is able to convict His children and often we hold differing understandings and opinions on just how to walk out our own faith-walks. The problem comes in when we refuse or forget to respect others whether they see it the same way, understand things the same way or "do it the same way" as we individually do.

The striving pops up when people try to claim (or even privately think -- whether they realize it or not) that their interpretation and understanding of Torah and the faith-walk is the only one that's right with G-d. These people, by default, assume that everyone who disagrees, or understands and implements Torah differently must be blinded, "in bondage", misled or miguided, instead of convicted differently by the Spirit of G-d. It is nothing more than pride to assume that we -- any one of us -- has a corner on the market for how OTHERS "should" be "doing it" (not to mention, it is disallowing the Spirit of G-d to be the Spirit of G-d in one another's lives, and trying to take that place ourselves when we treat others that way). And frankly... when Messianics do these things to other Messianics, it is NO different than when some Messianics tell Christians "you have to do it the way Messianics 'do it' (no "paganized" holidays, only the Biblical feasts/festivals, no Sunday worship but 7th Day Shabbat, no "this or that" or whatever) or else you aren't _________________________ (fill in the blank)!" No different at all. The same spirit drives the people doing both of these things.

This has often been my basic point here for a long time. When someone of the "torah-observers" spoke negatively and presumptively and degradingly of those who are not Torah-observing... what did people visiting the forum see? And the same is true of the flip-side. When someone who doesn't see Torah-observance as actions one can use to legitimately express one's faith-walk, and instead posts negatively, presumptively, degradingly of those who do see a Torah-observant walk as not only appropriate but personally necessary (and dares to share why they see it so)... what do people visiting the forum see? Man-driven strife, not Spirit-led unity which can flourish beautifully even in our diversity, and such unity does NOT hinge on our being unanimous in all beliefs/expressions and understandings of things not of salvation-import.


-------------------------------------------
Just some other thoughts I am wanting to add...

As much as some want to make it so, the fact is that Messianic Judaism does NOT, as a movement, have one central governing group/body that is able to delineate just who is a Messianic and can claim that term to explain/describe their faith-walk. And no one can say that "Messianics must beleive and do or not do 1) 2) 3), etc..." Yet, many here over the time I have been here have said, and I will say it too, if you take away "Old"-testament teaching (the esteem of G-d's Torah -- ALL of it and some will say this includes the "New" testament AND the "Old" testaments -- and observing of the actions which may be of Torah to the best of our limited understandings and abilities in our walk before Him) from the MJ walk and strive with others in the movement for adhering to it, thereby also causing the disruption and strife, there is no point in calling yourself or in even attempting to beMessianic as compared to Christian IMHO, and I would cautiously even suggest there is probably no longer any real difference in that case, anyway. Pretty much every Christian "denomination" and religious system anyone might choose is valid (in my eyes... of course, I am speaking as only one person here) if the goal is simply to be "saved" and to know who this Jesus person is and what he did on earth and why. And the Messianic walk is extremely lonely and can be very difficult for many if not most Messianics. So, if you (general you, not you personally, Kriss) are going to remove the very things that make Messianicism what it is as compared to normative Christianity, why bother? It's just as legitimate to be a Christian in any other religious/denominational faith-expression you might choose, then.

G-d didn't create His people to be clones -- and that applies to our personal faith-walk with Him as well. Not only that, considering how vast and beyond our understanding and intricate and rich is G-d's very nature, perhaps really it is nothing but vainglorious human sinfulness and frailty that believers of every and any faction assume He cannot have people who are His and belong entirely to Him who yet remain and are to be found in every single Christian group and expression of faith -- and even within Judaism itself -- from the most "liberal" to the most "legalistic". Maybe it just darned-well pleases G-d to be worshipped, related-to, and praised in a huge variety of ways and languages (Latin, Hebrew, the lingua franca, whatever)... and maybe He is even big enough to allow room for people, groups and denominations to have vastly differing understandings and varying applications and expressions of their (collective or individual) faith in Him, however they deem is appropriate for whatever reasonings, even though each "system" assuredly has some human failings and falsehoods and misunderstandings in there to boot. I dunno... I tend to think He is pretty big and pretty able to bring His people who are truly His into Truth, no matter how we may wander along the way or head off on rabbit trails, or try to run from Him or circumvent His work in our lives for a while. (let me repeat, I am talking about Christian faith-systems and denominations here... not various world or new-age religions, etc.)

G-d is bigger, and He is able to convict people and bring people to differing understandings of issues because He works in us as individuals, slowly, maybe teaching me in an area now that perhaps He taught you about years ago, and teaching you about things I have perhaps known a very long time, and bringing others of His children into entirely different seasons of learning from any we have personally been in yet, and revealing Himself to even others in other ways/areas of the walk perhaps we can't even fathom at this point. I think we all need to remember to let Him be bigger and in charge of His own people, even in our own minds. And I think we need to let Him do the convicting and stop telling each other what to do and how to "appropriately" express our faith in Him. Only the Spirit of G-d can convict -- men just turn each other away and harm others' faith when we try to tell others (Messianics telling Christians, Messianics telling other Messianics, Catholics telling Evangelicals, whoever telling whoever) how to express our own faith in Him. That's G-d's job. Our job is to be in prayer.

*shrug* I have no idea if any of this is making any sense.

[yod]

Thank you Yod. I have been visiting this MJ forum and reading the post here. And I wanted to comment on this thread “Focus”. I was considering becoming a Messianic But your right Yod. :thumbsup:



We are saved by grace. And there is no “need” for nothing more. What is the point is “doing” all this other stuff. If we keep the law of Christ and love others as our self it covers every thing. Thanks again Yod :thumbsup: I almost got put into bondage. Thank you Jesus. :amen: and :amen:


Kriss...I have no idea where you got that idea from because I didn't say that we have "no need" for nothing more.

We are to keep the Torah in the spirit of what it says...and there are many who keep it supernaturally without realizing it as Paul talks about in the early chapters of Romans. When we are born of the spirit and become a new creature, the desire to do His will is usually strong. Then we go to church.....and are taught things that are not necessarily true regarding the Torah's relevance to the believer even today.

I think that the New Covenant can only be fully understood in the light of the entire Bible and since Torah is the very foundation, it must be understood well.


Do you "have to" do these things to be born again? No. You will have the penalty for not doing them paid for by the blood of the Lamb of God.


Should you "want to" do them if you are a child of this Lamb?

It seems to me that you would want to know Him (as He is) by knowing Him as He was.

You aren't getting the whole experience if you are in the church.

But it isn't my place to enforce these things upon you or say that "messianics" have it all right and the church has it all wrong. We need each other as members of the same body.

As a gentile who was paid for by the Messiah of Israel, I believe just as Paul taught.....that some of the smaller members are worthy of more honor. This is why I am called to be messianic.

It's an acknowlegement that something went very wrong in the early centuries of "christendom"





But my lament was because there is a growing group of people in the opposite extreme who are so focused on the letter of the law that they can't see that there IS a NEW Covenant

I'm not speaking of anyone in particular here though we have varying disagreements over the "spirit vs letter" all the time.

[yod]

Why is that so over abused? Just whose love was this speaking of? Can our love for someone covers their sins, can it cover ours? No, Only Yeshua's blood did that.




Hmmm....I don't read it that way.


The way I understand that passage is that our love for others can cover a multitude of OUR sins.


In other words, if our heart's motive (mixed with truth) is to bless our neighbor, then we can not possibly harm them in a sinful way.

If we are pre-occupied with blessing others, we will be fulfilling the spirit of every law in the Torah. This is the New Covenant in a nutshell.

[Sephania]

If our hearts motive does not match up with HaShem's will it is not love at all , even though we may percieve it as such. We must not do to our leading, even if it is 'heartfelt' and seems good to us, we must do in the spirit and will of HaShem. But regardless, I don't see how all the love we can muster in the world will cover anyones sins, I believe that alone belongs to the King of Kings. :)

[yod]

But regardless, I don't see how all the love we can muster in the world will cover anyones sins, :)


maybe someday.

[Tishri1]

Kriss...I have no idea where you got that idea from because I didn't say that we have "no need" for nothing more.

We are to keep the Torah in the spirit of what it says...and there are many who keep it supernaturally without realizing it as Paul talks about in the early chapters of Romans. When we are born of the spirit and become a new creature, the desire to do His will is usually strong. Then we go to church.....and are taught things that are not necessarily true regarding the Torah's relevance to the believer even today.

I think that the New Covenant can only be fully understood in the light of the entire Bible and since Torah is the very foundation, it must be understood well.


Do you "have to" do these things to be born again? No. You will have the penalty for not doing them paid for by the blood of the Lamb of God.


Should you "want to" do them if you are a child of this Lamb?

It seems to me that you would want to know Him (as He is) by knowing Him as He was.

You aren't getting the whole experience if you are in the church.

But it isn't my place to enforce these things upon you or say that "messianics" have it all right and the church has it all wrong. We need each other as members of the same body.

As a gentile who was paid for by the Messiah of Israel, I believe just as Paul taught.....that some of the smaller members are worthy of more honor. This is why I am called to be messianic.

It's an acknowlegement that something went very wrong in the early centuries of "christendom"





But my lament was because there is a growing group of people in the opposite extreme who are so focused on the letter of the law that they can't see that there IS a NEW Covenant

I'm not speaking of anyone in particular here though we have varying disagreements over the "spirit vs letter" all the time.Kriss, Yod pretty much spoke for all of us here...sorry I bet you walked in on a family fight that's all:sorry:

[Ahavah]

Kriss, Yod pretty much spoke for all of us here...sorry I bet you walked in on a family fight that's all:sorry:Who fights around here?:P We all get along like peaches in a pie. ;)

[Bon]

Then why can’t you all [messianic]. Agree on this? It seams to me, that you guys argue a lot about this. And I have seen where some have left this forum because of all the disagreement. I see in my Church and other Church’s fight and bickering. And I come here and see the Messianic people doing the same thing. One Messianic will say to keep the law, another Messianic will say it’s not necessary. I have read where someone here was kicked out of his
Messianic church for keeping the law. I’m sorry but why would someone want to be Messianic when you look just like the Church. I’m sorry if I seem rude but I have been reading lots of post here and this is what I see. :cry:
In Jesus name.


That is why I stear clear of "THE DENOMINATION - MESSIANIC JUDAISM". Because, as a denomination, it becomes just another "MAN-MADE" organisation, filled with man-made error.

Look to the Word of Yahweh and not a denomination for the answers.

I think we all know that the Law of Yahweh cannot save us. That was never it's intention. And we understand that our salvation comes through our Saviour Yahshua Messiah, through faith, by the grace of Yahweh.

But take a look at some scriptures which give the Law a 'good rap'. They cannot be dismissed.

What exactly is the NEW COVENANT?

Hebrews 8:6 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MIND, and WRITE THEM IN THEIR HEARTS: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMNANT of her seed, which KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God, and HAVE the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that KEEP the COMMANDMENTS of God, AND the FAITH of Jesus.

A thorough study of the Word of Yahweh, will prove, without a shadow of a doubt, that the Law of Yahweh, (Torah= instruction) is NOT the "yoke of bondage" spoken of in Galatians, but rather, but the placing of our hope of salvation upon the keeping of the Law.

1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are NOT BURDENSOME.


Notice below that Abraham kept the commandments of Yahweh???
The Law wasn't even given at Mt Sinai yet.

Genesis 26:5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws."

------------------------------------------------------------------------

John 14:15 "IF YOU LOVE ME, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS."

Matthew 19:17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But IF YOU WANT TO ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS"

Keep it in mind, that as you read the words of Yahshua in the Gospels, that there was yet no New Testament. He was refering to the COMMANDMENTS given by Him in the OLD TESTAMENT.

What might seem like, the Law being "done away with" in the NT, with careful study, in CONTEXT AND HARMONY with the entire Word of Yahweh, will soon show that this is not the case at all.

What you will find is that after faith comes desired obedience toward our Heavenly Father Yahweh. And how do me make measurement of this obedience? By His Word, His INSTRUCTION = TORAH = LAW.

....And not out of expectation of salvation, but out of pure LOVE for Him.

Hence, "if you LOVE ME, keep My commandment."

If you love Him, you will.....without burden.

Shalom from Bon

[A_Pioneer]

Well said Bon!!!! Omien.

[yod]

Amen. I agree with overall tone and intent of your thoughtful post, Bon

Still, the Law is not our primary focus...or is it? When we speak of messianic judaism, shouldn't Messiah be primary and central?

I'm finding more and more messianics who talk about Torah like they actually observe it...but they rarely mention Yeshua in the mix except to say that He commands us to do the Torah. He is SO much more than a Torah teacher.

Have we let ourselves follow a religion of dead works by placing our focus on the Torah instead of the Messiah? It is an honest question and I believe the honest answer in too many places is "YES".

We have left our first love if we put ANYTHING before Him. THAT is what I was lamenting in the OP.

[A_Pioneer]

Yod, Torah is the Word of God, your NT says Yeshua the Messiah is the Word of God, so each time I mention Torah, I am speaking the Messiah. Law is what in Christian Bibles they refer to the Torah. So when the Law was supposed to be nailed to the cross, I almost agree, if they are saying the Messiah/Word made flesh was nailed to the cross, but not the written Torah.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation;

Also Yod, do a word search on "who sent me", Yeshua had a very high regard fo that one!
He said it often! Check it out.
Shalom

[yod]

Yod, Torah is the Word of God, your NT says Yeshua the Messiah is the Word of God, so each time I mention Torah, I am speaking the Messiah. Law is what in Christian Bibles they refer to the Torah. So when the Law was supposed to be nailed to the cross, I almost agree, if they are saying the Messiah/Word made flesh was nailed to the cross, but not the written Torah.

Joh 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the first-bornofall creation;

Also Yod, do a word search on "who sent me", Yeshua had a very high regard fo that one!
He said it often! Check it out.
Shalom




If your focus and faith is in the Torah, then you are missing the entire point of Yeshua's life AND death.



19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Yeshua the Messiah to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Messiah Yeshua. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.



This doesn't make the Torah (Law) void but it sure does put faith in Yeshua as a separate and greater work.



28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Yeshua answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

[Bon]

28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Yeshua answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

A great starting point for living a life for Yahweh.

I agree Yod, many of us do place greater emphasis on the keeping of the Law than we should.

Personally, I am learning not to stress because I am not able to keep all the commandments. Yahweh knows my heart and my intentions, and I am contientiously walking in the direction that I believe to be pleasing to Him. I want to be obedient, but I cant do it all at once. It just becomes burdensome otherwise, and I have learned not to let that happen.

I think too, and I am speaking from a personal POV again, that I am learning to extend myself outward, toward others a lot more than I do, rather than expending all of my engergies on working out how to keep the Law correctly, and worrying if I don't. How foolish! ;)

Yod! how do we find a middle ground? From what I believe, you believe in the Law of Yahweh as still being valid....do you adhere to any of these Laws.....Shabbat, feasts etc. ?

If you do, how do we let those who truly believe the Law has been nailed to the cross, and is now null and void, understand that it IS still valid without making it seem as though we are being legalistic? ...or relying on the Law for our salvation?

That is one point that I just cannot seem to get across to Christians effectively.
(It's a case of selective deafness....the minute they hear the word "LAW", all the red lights go on, the bells start ringing, the eyes glaze over and then the word "LEGALISTIC" pops out of their mouth before I even get to finish my sentance. hehe!)

Shalom from Bon

[A_Pioneer]

If your focus and faith is in the Torah, then you are missing the entire point of Yeshua's life AND death.



19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Yeshua the Messiah to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Messiah Yeshua. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.



This doesn't make the Torah (Law) void but it sure does put faith in Yeshua as a separate and greater work.



28Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Yeshua answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Yod, I am sorry to say this, but that is full of Christian Judgement!

Why didn't you read what I wrote and ruminate on it before you got on your "High Horse"?

I have not lost the meaning of The Messiah, His laying down his life for me.
It is the Bible that says He is the WORD of GOD, the Word made Flesh, not me,I'm just quoting. Torah is the Word of God. How far is that from Yeshua the word of God. Instructions from our Father who is in heaven.

[yod]

Yod, I am sorry to say this, but that is full of Christian Judgement!

Why didn't you read what I wrote and ruminate on it before you got on your "High Horse"?

I have not lost the meaning of The Messiah, His laying down his life for me.



I never said that "you" did. Are you feeling some conviction maybe?

All I have said throughout this thread is that faith in Yeshua should be our focus instead of anything else, including Torah.



Yod! how do we find a middle ground? From what I believe, you believe in the Law of Yahweh as still being valid....do you adhere to any of these Laws.....Shabbat, feasts etc. ?


absolutely!

Yet I recognize that much of the "doing" of Torah as taught by the "Torah Observant" is cultural & rabbinic and not always relevant to a life of faith. Since there is no Temple, much of it can not be done so what we are getting is a rabbinically cultural replacement.

Nothing wrong with cultural observances as long as we understand that it IS cultural. Like Hannukah for example....

For instance, I don't beat myself up with guilt on Yom Kippur because in Yeshua my sins are already as far as the east is from the west. It is always a good idea to repent long before Yom Kippur comes but if you have waited all year for it, then by all means repent!

But our atonement has already been made.





If you do, how do we let those who truly believe the Law has been nailed to the cross, and is now null and void, understand that it IS still valid without making it seem as though we are being legalistic? ...or relying on the Law for our salvation?

It is going to take the same miracle of grace and mercy that God gave us.

Praying with them...and for them...usually works that miracle.

Everyone in the church knows that something is missing, they just don't know what it is yet. They are suspicious of anything that sounds like truth if they have never heard it from the pulpit.

All we have to do is be a patient witness to the Light. Most messianics do that naturally....as evidenced by your willingness to even discuss it publically.

But then there are some of us (not speaking of anyone in particular) who are just as stubborn in our ways as the christians we complain about. We will talk down to christians as if they are totally stupid when they have 2,000 years of Greek philosophy to overcome and it ain't gonna happen in one conversation. I've been guilty of doing this so my guess is that all of us have been guilty of it at one time or another.





That is one point that I just cannot seem to get across to Christians effectively.
(It's a case of selective deafness....the minute they hear the word "LAW", all the red lights go on, the bells start ringing, the eyes glaze over and then the word "LEGALISTIC" pops out of their mouth before I even get to finish my sentance. hehe!)

What a funny mental picture!:D

This reminds me of my friend, DeAnne. Whenever she would get into that kind of a discussion, she would say, "Well bless yore little heart" and that was code language for "you are oblivious to reality"

Bless them anyways!

Is it really up to us to make someone see things as we do? We should save that kind of intense engaged discussion for Zemirah and/or the mishpocha.

(jk... I love ya Zemmy)

[Henaynei]

MOD HAT ON
http://www.nehemiah-center.org/Henny.jpg

I'm gonna step in here before this "takes off" - Please be scrupulous to avoid ad hominem (against the person) posts as these are violations of the rules.
Please keep your comments addressed to the points and issues of the posts and NOT toward or about the poster :)

MOD HAT OFF
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[Henaynei]

temporarily closed for a bit to allow folks opportunity to read above post :)

[Henaynei]

go forth and be a blessing :)

[AlikhnKwizad]

Wouldn't the answer to all this be more complicated... Each human is made up of various past experiences, different genetics, different cultures, different gifts, and of course... that old sin nature...

And we are all in the process of being refined... so we will have to rub each other the wrong way, probably, through out our lives... hopfully less as we grow in spiritual maturity...

So, no matter what position we hold, we must approach every issue in love. And we will still disagree on some things...and we have to commit to hang in there and work through those tough spots. It's part of the process.

And sometimes I DO NOT LIKE THE PROCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I think it is sort of required... part of the packaged deal.

I think that is what everyone here realizes... but it's not an answer we like to hear. At least I don't like that answer!

[AlikhnKwizad]

As for me...

I live in an environment (I'm talking extended family here) that is passively hostile to Torah observance. And it's not just that. They have built a nice tidy box for G-d to live in... so He never rocks their boat, and they do not have to see the world beyond their front door.

They have no friends of a different ethnicity. They complain about people of different "races." They travel, but refuse to emerse themselves in other cultures. They throw out scripture but run from a response to their attack. They only approve of a perspective if their pastor says its ok. They talk church. They are oblivious to the outside world. They lack substance & depth.

They happen to be in the church. They could have been in the synagogue... or in some other religion.

And they are individuals, not everyone in their church is like that... or are they?

I met a woman in their church who had grown up a missionary. She had really been exposed to different cultures. One day her family went with DH & I to our synagogue. Her daughter was dateing a Jewsih guy. They said they enjoyed it... but the vibe I got from the lady (mother) was very different from the vibe I got from the daughter. The mother felt uncomfortable... once we started talking... she realized we didn't just "play" Jewish to win Jews to Christanity... but that we ARE Jewish.

I didn't think she'd come back... they didn't. The daughter, however was more open to it... but seemed to be very attached to mother... and her christian religion. They were full of fear... very on guard... trying to act relaxed.

What I've noticed is that once christians find out that MJism is not just a missionary outreach of the Christian religion... they get threatened by it.

The reverse could be true in a situation where one has grown up in a strick Jewish home... or one that was religious but lacked depth.

so we swing from one extreme to another, back & forth, rubbing each other wrong... 'tll at last we find the ballance... the center of G-ds will.

I'm typing as my 1 yr. old fusses in my lap... hope this made some sense... i don't even know... time for his lunch!

[Velcro]

Just writing for myself here . . . .

I admit that I resent all the years that were stolen from me by wrong teachings -- teachings that:

Torah was irrelevant and the "Old Testament" was good only for its stories and its teaching on rearing children and tithing
grace did not appear until the "New Testament"
the first believers' worship was inferior -- and even that they did not enter into eternal life with G-d because of it!
etc.
Where I attended, as is true for many Christians, we were so immersed into the "New Testament" that we rarely touched the other Scriptures! There was even a time when I carried only the "New Testament" because I had been taught so strongly that these were the only Scriptures that mattered, that were relevant! So yes, when one initially discovers Treasure, one immerses in that Treasure, absorbing, learning, doing.

However, this new discovery, while it is on our minds and lips for its newness, in no way detracts from that understanding that all things are Y'shua and He hold the keys to what is most important. I practice Torah with my eyes upon Him; He is the focal point. Without Him, I have no reason to do anything, and honestly, I would not bother.

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Made sense. I reckon I get on the defensive when I sense someone looking down on what I believe and I need to work that out so as not to, but to love them into the Truth.

[AlikhnKwizad]

Velcro-

I so understand. It's the feeling that you've been lied to... and about the most important thing in life... the Nature & heart of G-d.

Jesus didn't make any sense to me... untill I studied the Scriptures for myself... and that study (and prayer) has lead me to this place. I even prayed to HaShem that I didn't want to deal with denominations, or mans view... that I wanted to see HIM and live like HE instructed us to live... And here I am.

I don't know what the Jewish view on this would be... my husbands father so rejected his Jewishness, that my DH had to start from scratch... and encountered much oposition.

I don't see Torah without Yeshua! Shabbat nights... when we light the candles... it's like we touch something very ancient in human souls... There is a taste of that sinless union with G-d that we had before the fall and the feelings that came after... I see all of humanity existing in Shabbat... the whole story, past & present... and the mystery of the Messiah... words cannot explain.

It's like a doorway...

So when someone says that's going under the law... I'm like, "You have no idea, do you?"

That fellowship with G-d... nothing can replace it. And Yeshua cannot be seperated from it. It just IS.

[Shimshon]

When I bring the microscope into 'focus' what I see is people believing

Judaism = Rabbinical Halakha
&
Christianity = Catholic Doctrines

So when one says they are 'Christian' a Jew hears "you observe catholic doctrines and ways". And when one says they are 'Jewish' a Christian hears "you observe rabbinical halakha".

Yet, 'Rabbinical' "Judaism" is only one sect of such. And 'Catholicism' is only one sect of such.

So, when we use the terms in general the whole scope gets thrown out of 'FOCUS', and we argue 'distorted' paradims.



Why are we expecting to see everyone in focus? When we are quite obviously not viewing things from the same perspective. A work of the Ruach given us all.

I say Torah, one says "LAW" done away with. The other says "LIFE" I can't do without.

Both are looking at the same thing. Yet one says Black the other White. Because the paradim used is either 'rabbinical' or 'catholic'. I personally have a hebraic perspective. Sort of a 'hebrew roots, roots movement'. lol My paradim does not stop at the RCC nor the first advent of Yeshua, but from the first word Elohim spoke.

I see the unfocused reactions to his message starting from there. Even Adamah and Chavah had their microscope 'tweeked' so as to do something they shouldn't.

So, I see the question has not changed much throughout time. Who do you say I am? God, a prophet, a man, a messiah, THE messiah, Torah, worthless?

We are lamps holding the light of the world. We are to 'illuminate' others with the light given us. Not set them on fire with it.

A wise man can discern a wolf in sheeps clothing, a person bowling down others with his log.

As the good book says.........The rich man is wise in his own view, but the poor who has discernment sees through him.


Yod, lovely vent chaveri. The work is hard. May you remain strong.

[AlikhnKwizad]

Everyone sees G-d through their own eyes... and we are all looking to see G-d as He is. Eventually we will see him face to face... then everything will be made known to us. So we keep on walking...