Observe the Torah or don't observe the Torah? - that is the question

[Adammi]

My brothers and sisters,
I want to be Torah observant I want to observe the dietary laws, celebrate the holy days, and everything. Why? Because Adonai does not change and the early church did not stop practicing Judaism. But. When I get to Romans 14 it changes my mind because it seems so opposed to observing the Torah and the word of God including the Torah and Romans are my supreme rule of faiht. How do Torah-observant Christians interpret this passage of scripture?
:confused: :confused:

[Torah]

My brothers and sisters,
I want to be Torah observant I want to observe the dietary laws, celebrate the holy days, and everything. Why? Because Adonai does not change and the early church did not stop practicing Judaism. But. When I get to Romans 14 it changes my mind because it seems so opposed to observing the Torah and the word of God including the Torah and Romans are my supreme rule of faiht. How do Torah-observant Christians interpret this passage of scripture?

Lets clear up one misconception of the word “FOOD” When it comes to what we call food. We say it’s all good! We skip over key words. We must understand what God call’s food. And what the Roman’s called food.
([1] What animals did God create to be used as food?)
God did not; create all animals to be called food. Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said… 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food.

([2] What food is made consecrated (holy) by the word of G-d?)
Lev 11: 44 I am the LORD your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves about on the ground.

What is food? This is what God says is food.
Lev 11: 46-47
"'These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves in the water and every creature that moves about on the ground.
You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.'" (FOOD.)


GOD declares what animals are to be called food in Lev chapter 11. And Jesus, Peter, and Paul will not say otherwise. The word food=kosher=clean all mean the same thing. It’s what we can eat as food. To say kosher food is like saying food, food.



Rom 14: 1 is another versa that is missed understood. It is used to call excitable what God calls unacceptable
Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. [6] He who eats meat eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.

[1] Disputable matters: If God says in his word this you can eat, and this you cannot eat. Then it is not a disputable matter.
So! Roman chapter 14 is about people who eat only vegetables. And the people who eat kosher meat, Looking down on him who does not eat kosher meat. This is a Disputable matters. Because the law- Torah does not say you cant eat only vegetables.
Rom 14: 14
As one who is in the Lord Jesus, I am fully convinced that no (kosher) food is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for him it is unclean.

[20] Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of (kosher) food. All (kosher) food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble.
What Paul is saying “vegetables or meat” its all-kosher food so lets move on in the Lord!

Shalom Upon_This_Rock

[Zacharias]

Lets clear up one misconception of the word “FOOD” When it comes to what we call food. We say it’s all good! We skip over key words. We must understand what God call’s food. And what the Roman’s called food.
([1] What animals did God create to be used as food?)
God did not; create all animals to be called food. Lev 11:1-47
The LORD said… 'Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: (call food.) If it is not on the list it is not even called food.


If I may note...

Are dogs and cats considered food? If Yeshua said that all foods were clean, we would still believe that dogs and cats aren't food. :)

[Torah]

Freak4JC how about human flesh? Can we be cannibals?. Is it in Lev 11: If not, it is not even called “FOOD”, and we only eat food.

If Yeshua said that all "foods" were clean,

[Zacharias]

Freak4JC how about human flesh? Can we be cannibals?. Is it in Lev 11: If not, it is not even called “FOOD”, and we only eat food.

If Yeshua said that all "foods" were clean,
My would have been rep if his rep wasn't disabled:

Good point! :sick: :thumbsup:

[A_Pioneer]

Mr 7:19 since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Parrens means added by writer.

Omein to Torahs post!

[Zacharias]

Mr 7:19 since it enters, not his heart but his stomach, and so passes on?" (Thus he declared all foods clean.)

Parrens means added by writer.

Omein to Torahs post!


Pretend that there are NO parentheses. What is "food"? Am I food? Are you food? Is my little brother food? Is my dog food? :sick: :sick: :sick:

[Torah]

Thanks Pioneer.

NIV
19 For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body."
(In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")

did Jesus say all food is clean. Or did he?
This verse is not in the original text.
In the preface in the front of your Bible it says.
“To achieve clarity the translators sometimes supplied words not in the original texts, it is enclosed in brackets.” (,) [,]
[Clarity from whose point of view?]
Jesus never said. (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")


KJV
19 Because it entereth not into his heart, but into the belly, and goeth out into the draught, purging all meats?


Freak4JC ":sick:" :thumbsup:

[A_Pioneer]

Pretend that there are NO parentheses. What is "food"? Am I food? Are you food? Is my little brother food? Is my dog food? :sick: :sick: :sick:

Okay, I'll pretend I can't read, does this make me above the law?

Y H V H designated what was food!

I did not see Freak4JC, nor your brother on the menu nor Gods' list of clean animals. So I suppose you are not Kosher food. LOL

[Adammi]

Thank you guys very much for your replies to my questions.


Shalom

[visionary]

Think of it this way, as you read the laws found in the old testament, visualize Jesus giving them. Remember to try to understand the spirit (Holy Spirit) in which they were given. They are after all not just the shadows but the body of Christ.

[Bon]

Romans 14:1 Receive one who is weak in the faith, [but] not to disputes over doubtful things.

Here in Romans it is speaking of a weak brother. This is much like the situation in 1 Corinthians chapter 8. So we can see that in both the Corinthian and Roman assemblies the common thread was dealing with those who are weak. Part of the problem is that we are dealing with something that both Paul and the Roman assembly are aware of but we are left to figure out what it is. It is much like listening to one side of a phone conversation.

But keep in mind that this is among the 'doubtful things', so it must not be an issue of whether or not to obey a commandment of Yahweh.

Romans 14:2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats [only] vegetables.

The key is in verse two. Paul is clearly speaking here about vegetarianism. The weak person is the one eating vegetables. The question is why is this person considered weak?? There is a similar situation with a 'weak' brother in the Corinthian assembly. This persons faith was hindered by his temptation to follow an idol. But this is a more advanced situation in Rome. Brothers have taken more of a stance on both sides of the issue.

Romans 14:3 Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for Yahweh has received him. 4 Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Yahweh is able to make him stand.

Based on context of this chapter, I believe that some would not eat meat at all for fear that it might have been offered to an idol. Others believed that since an idol was nothing, they would not ask any questions when buying meat. Keep in mind that in Rome there were over 1 million people and 400 pagan temples in that city alone! This is not unlike the city of Corinth with its many pagan temples and about a half million people. So it seems that what is being said here is that they should not judge one another based on this issue. The Roman assembly apparently had a division on this. Those who did not ask questions when eating the meat were condemned by those who refused to eat anything (for fear it might have been offered to an idol.) This passage refers to the latter as the 'one who is weak'. Just the same as in 1 Corinthians.

Romans 14:5 One person esteems [one] day above another; another esteems every day [alike]. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

This verse speaks of days of observance which are not the issue in this thread....so we wont go there right now.

But as I see it, given its correct context, I believe that verse 5 is talking about which day that one should fast. This does have support in the text because the next verse says:

Romans 14:6 He who observes the day, observes [it] to Yahweh; and he who does not observe the day, to Yahweh he does not observe [it]. He who eats, eats to Yahweh, for he gives Yahweh thanks; and he who does not eat, to Yahweh he does not eat, and gives Yahweh thanks.

It is important to understand that one of the traditions of the Pharisees in that day was to fast twice a week:

Luke 18:11 "The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, `Elohim, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 `I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'

Shalom from Bon

[A_Pioneer]

In the beginning Y H V H created Aleph Tav(alphabet) with which He spoke the mind of God and the universe came into being. The NT says Yeshua is the Aleph Tav(alphabet)the first born of all creation. The "Word of God" created all things. The Word of God became flesh and dwelt with us, Yeshua is the living Torah. Yeshua was sent into the world to save the world. John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word/Torah and believes him/Y H V H who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
The gift of God is wonderful! But it does in no way replace the giver. Y H V H sent Yeshua to be The Yeshua/salvation of God. Glory be to God in the highest!!

[debi b]

Because Adonai does not change...

That is the very best place to start :) When I was a new believer, I was told the WHOLE book was His word. When we generally have trouble reconciling one part of scripture with another part of scripture, it is often due to definitions. I have found that the longer I study ALL of scripture, the more I am able to reconcile. However, we are often in such a hurry. It takes time, it is a pretty big book - but it is only ONE BOOK.

IMO the study of the first five books is crucial because I believe it is the foundation for all scriptural thought. It is often difficult to follow issues and concepts later because we really do not understand what is being talked about (you would never pick up a mystery novel and try to figure out "who dunnit" by reading only the last three chapter :) ).

It isn’t so much a line in the sand we cross over as it is a journey we travel.