Form of Church Government and doctrine

[Diane_Windsor]

Do you think that a church's form of government should take precedence over doctrine?

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and still consider myself to be one. However, I am also a paedobaptist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism)-no one agrees totally with their denomination :P . I have researched several denominations who also practice paedobaptism, but I always have a major difficulty with their form of church government. I am most comfortable with congregationalism as opposed to other forms of church governance. The more highly organised a church structure is the more uncomfortable I am with that church.

I am somewhat comfortable with presbyterianism, but I am not a Calvinist. I am drawn to Lutheransim, yet I don't agree with all parts of the Book of Concord. I like Anglicanism somewhat, yet they have a highly structured form of government. The RCC/EO are out of the picture because of doctrinal issues. I'm running out of churches here, but there is one that I like.

I like the UMC, it seems that I agree with their theology more than I agree with the theology of the SBC. There are also some really great UMC churches in my area, and I enjoy attending the services and receiving Holy Communion frequently. Yet they have bishops as well, and I'm still uncomfortable about that aspect. OTHO, perhaps it is not a coincidence that my great-grandfather's name was John Wesley Surname, who was ironically a Baptist himself.

What would you do if you were in my situation?

Diane
:)

[hindsey]

Do you think that a church's form of government should take precedence over doctrine?

I was raised as a Southern Baptist, and still consider myself to be one. However, I am also a paedobaptist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infant_baptism)-no one agrees totally with their denomination :P . I have researched several denominations who also practice paedobaptism, but I always have a major difficulty with their form of church government. I am most comfortable with congregationalism as opposed to other forms of church governance. The more highly organised a church structure is the more uncomfortable I am with that church.

I am somewhat comfortable with presbyterianism, but I am not a Calvinist. I am drawn to Lutheransim, yet I don't agree with all parts of the Book of Concord. I like Anglicanism somewhat, yet they have a highly structured form of government. The RCC/EO are out of the picture because of doctrinal issues. I'm running out of churches here, but there is one that I like.

I like the UMC, it seems that I agree with their theology more than I agree with the theology of the SBC. There are also some really great UMC churches in my area, and I enjoy attending the services and receiving Holy Communion frequently. Yet they have bishops as well, and I'm still uncomfortable about that aspect. OTHO, perhaps it is not a coincidence that my great-grandfather's name was John Wesley Surname, who was ironically a Baptist himself.

What would you do if you were in my situation?

Diane
:)

If I were in your situation, I would repent of my belief in paedobaptism (infant baptism). Then, find a good Baptist church, and be happy ever after! :)

[McDLT]

I choose NO. Goverence should not take precidence over doctrine.

But it really depends on the doctrine. What if the doctrine could be faulty. Always test the Scriptures.

I think you may have 2 threads here - one on goverence vs doctrine and another on infant baptistism. Hopefully people will stay on the poll topic.

[hindsey]

I choose NO. Goverence should not take precidence over doctrine.

But it really depends on the doctrine. What if the doctrine could be faulty. Always test the Scriptures.

I think you may have 2 threads here - one on goverence vs doctrine and another on infant baptistism. Hopefully people will stay on the poll topic.

I was just trying to be funny, McDLT. We won't get off topic.

Doctrine is more important in my opinion.

[Carrye]

Hi Diane,

I'm not sure that I understand "congregationalism" - could you explain?

[Diane_Windsor]

Carrye,

I found a Wikipedia article which should explain things: Congregationalist church governance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congregationalism)

One major concept is autonomy (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=autonomy). From the Baptist Faith and Message:
"VI. The Church (http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#vi)

A New Testament church of the Lord Jesus Christ is an autonomous local congregation of baptized believers, associated by covenant in the faith and fellowship of the gospel; observing the two ordinances of Christ, governed by His laws, exercising the gifts, rights, and privileges invested in them by His Word, and seeking to extend the gospel to the ends of the earth. Each congregation operates under the Lordship of Christ through democratic processes. In such a congregation each member is responsible and accountable to Christ as Lord. Its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons. While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.

The New Testament speaks also of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all of the redeemed of all the ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.

Matthew 16:15-19; 18:15-20; Acts 2:41-42,47; 5:11-14; 6:3-6; 13:1-3; 14:23,27; 15:1-30; 16:5; 20:28; Romans 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:2; 3:16; 5:4-5; 7:17; 9:13-14; 12; Ephesians 1:22-23; 2:19-22; 3:8-11,21; 5:22-32; Philippians 1:1; Colossians 1:18; 1 Timothy 2:9-14; 3:1-15; 4:14; Hebrews 11:39-40; 1 Peter 5:1-4; Revelation 2-3; 21:2-3."



It should be noted that congregationalism differs from a presbyterian church governance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presbyterian_church_governance) (governed by elders), and a episcopalian church governance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopalian_church_governance) (governed by bishops).

Do you have a better idea of congregationalism now, or did I just confuse you ^_^ ?

Diane
:wave:

[novcncy]

If I were in your situation, I would repent of my belief in paedobaptism (infant baptism). Then, find a good Baptist church, and be happy ever after! :)

What Hindsey said. :)

But in all seriousness, I too voted for doctrine over governence. However, as long as doctrine and governence agree, then there is no issue. The New Testament model of the church is local, not some large organization, whether it be synod or diocese or whatever. That's a doctrinal issue in and of itself, as if you didn't have enough to consider. God blass, Diane.

[Flynmonkie]

What would you do if you were in my situation?

Diane
:)

:wave: Diane, actually I went through this for quite a while. To be completely honest..it stymed my growth. No one denomination is perfect, as you have found. What I decided to do was find the denomination/Church that I feel most comfortable in with learning and fellowship. I self-study quite a bit. And Honestly, I pray God will lead me where He wants me to be.

Jimfromohio had a post somewhere regarding the fundamentals of Christian faith. The things that are non-negotiable. I will have to look for it again or may-be he can post it again for us. But then there are other things that are just not that important to agree on. (or allow others to grow at their own pace on). That is how I feel. Actually, it was studying Calvinist doctrine that really freaked me out ..But my aunt and uncle and many friends follow these teachings closely. We disagree on issues, however we don't make this an issue between ourselves. Knowing that neither one of us are going to convince the other. ;)

You might stick with a Methodist church? Or even a Baptist church outside of the SBC. I have not noticed any Baptist Churches that are very strict on Church government unless you get into the Anabaptist arena (?), or even Calvinist. In the south, the Methodist and the Baptist seem to be close. My grandmother and granddaddy (he was a deacon for a SBC church) are converted Methodist to Southern Baptist, however they participate with the Methodists in many ways. Years ago, the little town they came from, the Methodists and Baptist would plan picnics together or potlucks after church. Are there variations of Methodist such as Lutheran?

It is one of those things I think you will have to either give to God and let Him lead....or if you feel He is urging you to look elsewhere....keep searching. IMVHO :)

[Carrye]

Do you have a better idea of congregationalism now, or did I just confuse you ^_^ ?

No, it actually helped! :) It's interesting how many parallels there are between congregationalism and more hierarchical models. What is it about congregationalism that appeals to you?

[Diane_Windsor]

Carrye,

1. I grew up in it, so it's what I know. I think we're most comfortable with things we know really well.

2. Congregationalists don't have a bishop over you, etc. The reason that I don't like highly-organized churches is that I had a bad experience with the RCC. I won't go into details, but once you get burned by something you tend to go the other direction ;) I like the Episcopal church, but am a bit weary of their bishops. I'm not sure how much power Methodists bishops have.

Diane
:)

[R.J.S]

Do you think that a church's form of government should take precedence over doctrine?

I would say that church government is doctrinal :) so you have a loose loose situation...doctrinally correct regarding baptism or doctrinally correct regarding church structure...which is more important?

[Carrye]

Carrye,

1. I grew up in it, so it's what I know. I think we're most comfortable with things we know really well.

2. Congregationalists don't have a bishop over you, etc. The reason that I don't like highly-organized churches is that I had a bad experience with the RCC. I won't go into details, but once you get burned by something you tend to go the other direction ;) I like the Episcopal church, but am a bit weary of their bishops. I'm not sure how much power Methodists bishops have.

That answered my question. :)

I'm not sure that it'll do much now, but I apologize for whatever bad experiences you had with the Church. It always hurts my heart to hear those stories, and to know that people have ever been shown anything less than Christ's own love by Catholics. Forgive us.

[eldermike]

Doctrine is more important. FWIW, I am one that believes that the local church should be led by elders, one of which is a bishop (adminstrative gifts) and one which is the teaching elder (shepherd/teacher/pastor). Somehow we got all of these ideas from the same two letters, into different denoms, with few cases of churches that have them all. But to stay on track, church government should be based on doctrine and followed closely.

[abbygirlforever]

Diane,

From my experience in the UMC, bishops don't have too awful much direct influence over individual churches. They basically oversee a group of churches to help handle any problems that might rise up and make sure they are sticking to the BoD (Book of Discipline). When the UMC I attended at one time had a internal battle over the pastor, the bishop stepped in and helped settle the issue when asked. If a church is in financial trouble (as mine was at the same time), the bishop will help with that as well if he/she can. Still, most matters of church government are left to the individual church as long as they follow the basic guidelines in the BoD.

While I miss the UMC to a large degree, some of the internal issues within the conference have me worried, such as arguements over ordaining homosexual ministers, etc. However, most of the rural and southern UMC churches have a more Baptist leaning as far as discipline goes; it's mostly the more urban UMC churches that are leaning liberal.

[Diane_Windsor]

Carrye,

Thank you for your kind remarks. I've found that no church is immune from arrogant clergy.

I would say that church government is doctrinal :) so you have a loose loose situation...doctrinally correct regarding baptism or doctrinally correct regarding church structure...which is more important?

I would agree with that church government is doctrinal to some extent. I really don't see Christ preaching about Church governance though, so I tend to put it in another category.

Thanks for your post Flynmonkie :)

Diane
:wave: