this place is diferent

[Tishri1]

this place gets tweeked everyonce in a while (probably Hasatan's doing) but for the most...this place is a retreat! A TRUE house of fellowship:groupray: a delight to be in. some one heared me complaining about another Forum once and thought I was talking about this place (cuz I didn't mention the forum's name)HAHAHA:D never! THIS place is where its at! I have never found another like it. Everytime I visit other places I only see strife and competition and "one-uping" ...not here...this place and everyone here has the other's well being in mind (for the most part) . I love this place and am so glad to be here. :bow:

[christinepro]

Me too!

[queenm04]

Probably becoz most of d people in this forum are Shabbat keepers, their heads hav been cooled on the 7th day. may b a lessin need 2 b learn by boiling brains out there :doh:

:clap:

[Bon]

Here! here!.....I love it too. :hug:

Bon

[Tishri1]

Probably becoz most of d people in this forum are Shabbat keepers, their heads hav been cooled on the 7th day. may b a lessin need 2 b learn by boiling brains out there :doh:

:clap:I think you may be on to something Queen...yep thems wize words:thumbsup:

[MyLittleWonders]

Yes, this place is an oasis in the middle of a vast desert we live in. I am so thankful to HaShem for bringing me here. :) And yep, queenm04 - I do think you are on to something as well. Even the weeks where Shabbat doesn't seem to quite go as I wish, the day is still a little taste of heaven.

[Tishri1]

:groupray:I love you guys..really I do...:clap: (And without even know how ugly everyone is) hehehe:D just kidden ...we are the BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE(well Erin is gorgeous I have seen her) Everyone says I resemble my pet:eek:


the heart is all we see here....and everyone of them is beautiful, reflecting the love of Yeshua...

:kiss:
love you all, Tish

[Steve Petersen]

I wonder if the unity here is because you don't have to deal with the myriad hair-splitting theologies and dogma that the rest of the Christian world has created for itself.

I think in a real sense your are all beneficiaries of and Absolute Reformation.

Here is an article by D.T. Lancaster that brought this idea home for me:

Absolute Reformation



A Philosophy of Return

D. Thomas Lancaster



Absolute Truth

Looking for the Way Home



Christianity is characterized by two kinds of diversity. We are diverse in the positive sense that many ethnic and cultural backgrounds find expression within a common faith framework. This first kind of diversity is good. It speaks to the universal truth and inclusiveness of the faith. The second type of diversity is just the opposite. It is diversity in the negative sense of many splintered and fractured belief systems without a common faith framework. This kind of diversity is bad. It denies universal truth and it denies the inclusiveness of our faith.

Negative diversity is the average Christian experience. Within the faith, we find all manner of mutually exclusive and incompatible beliefs and practices. This troubles us because we believe that ultimately truth is absolute. If truth is derived from God, it must be absolute and not subject to aberration. Yet clearly, since we cannot agree on what the truth is, we do not possess absolute truth, but only splinters of it.

Did we, as a faith, ever possess absolute truth? We must affirm that we once did, for if we did not, then there is no basis for seeking continuity with the past or preserving ourselves in the future. If we never possessed truth, then our whole faith is only a sham. But on the other hand, if we did once possess absolute truth, where has it gone?

If we possess truth at all, anymore, surely it is to be found in what we share in common with one another, rather than in what separates us. This is the driving force behind the ecumenical movement. It is the desire to rise above our differences and discern one core faith, belief and truth that identifies us all as truly Christian. Finding that core, however, is tricky business.

In order to find the common core we all share, we must return to a point prior to our fracture. We must return to a place we all have in common. That place can only be found in the story of our common origin: the New Testament record of the Gospels and the inception of the First Century Church. If then, we are to find the core of absolute truth that can serve as a basis for our common brotherhood, we must return to our origins in the First Century Church.

The First Century Church is the home from which all the children came. If we are ever to find ourselves under one roof again, we must return to that same home. There, under that common roof we are free to express and celebrate our positive diversity in a positive sense while holding fast to the common absolute truth of our shared faith. Undoubtedly, the core commonality of the First Century Church is the person of Jesus. But even this is not enough if Jesus is treated as an abstraction or a spiritual principal. Stripped of his mortal person and historical-scriptural context, Jesus became malleable in our hands. Thinkers, theologians and heretics were free to reshape Jesus into many forms. Even the author of our faith ceased to be the absolute by which we could define ourselves.

If we would find absolute truth, then, we must restore both Jesus and the Church to their original person and historical-scriptural context. This is the only way home. Only on the basis of the truths that the New Testament church professed and walked in can we hope to find commonality and, indeed, Absolute Truth. Only in the person of living and real Jesus, as revealed in the scriptural-historical context of the New Testament can we find Absolute Truth. To put it directly, we must find the way back home, past centuries and centuries of wandering, we must find the way back to Jerusalem and the Church of the Bible.

[Steve Petersen]

Absolute Reformation

The Long Journey Home



At the end of the Middle Ages, an Austrian monk by the name of Martin Luther had a terrible realization. While studying the New Testament, he realized that the Church as he knew it was far, far removed from the Church of the New Testament. He realized that the Church as he knew it was saturated with unbiblical doctrines. He realized that the Church as he knew it had drifted far from the course laid by Jesus and his disciples.

In response to this terrible realization, Martin Luther set out to reform the Church and bring it back in line with the Biblical pattern. His efforts became known as the Reformation, and the rest is, of course, history.

But did Luther go far enough? Clearly the myriad daughters-denominations of the Protestant movement do not think so. Each Protestant movement has contributed its own distinctive set of further reforms. Ostensibly, each reform is an attempt to reach further back to the original, back to the First Century Church of Jesus and his disciples.

The effort to return home to the First Century Church is praiseworthy and noble. This effort springs from a desire to conform our lives and congregations to the authority of the Word of God. The motives of these reformers are pure and good. Their methodology, however, has been flawed.

What the various Protestant reformers have failed to recognize about the First Century Church is that she was Jewish. She was a branch of Judaism, in no way distinct from Judaism. Jesus, the disciples, the first believers, the worship system, the Scriptures, the interpretation of the Scriptures, the teaching, the vernacular and even the very concept of faith were all patently Jewish. The inclusion of Gentiles into the Church was also a Jewish concept, based upon Jewish ideas of conversion and inclusion.

An honest reading of the New Testament from a Jewish perspective makes it clear that the First Century Church never thought of herself as separate and excluded from Judaism. Rather, she considered herself part of the whole of Israel. She never imagined herself as replacing Judaism, because she never considered herself separate from Judaism. She did conceive of herself as a reform within Judaism, but not as a separate entity.

So it is that any attempt to return to the First Century, New Testament Church will fall short as long as it refuses to acknowledge the Church’s essential Jewishness. The historical fact of gross anti-Semitism within the Church has made such an acknowledgment impossible until very recently in our history. Only after the horror of the Holocaust has Christianity been willing to try to shake off her deep-rooted anti-Semitism, and only after Christians were removed from a climate of anti-Semitism have they been free to examine their Jewish origins.

Only now, almost 2000 years after her inception is the Church free to return home to her Jewish roots. Only now do we have the tools for Absolute Reformation.



Two Examples

Absolute Reformation demands that Christians not only examine their Jewish roots, but return to them. This does not entail formal and individual conversions to Judaism. It does entail a spiritual and corporate conversion to Judaism. Absolute Reformation means that Christians must return to the form and structure of the faith of Jesus and the Apostles. That form and structure is Judaism. For example, Absolute Reformation necessitates a return to the Synagogue. The First Century Church had its provincial locus within the Synagogue. Therefore, Absolute Reformation means returning to the ecclesiastical structure of the Synagogue. It necessitates a return to the models of worship, prayer and teaching of the Synagogue. Another example of Absolute Reformation is a return to the Biblical Holidays. The New Testament Church never issued directives regarding the weekly Shabbat or Biblical Holidays because those institutions were normative for all of Judaism. As a functioning part of First Century Judaism, the New Testament Church was already engaged in those institutions. Holy Days outside of Judaism and the Biblical sphere had not yet been introduced. There was no conflict between the Biblical mandate and Christian tradition because Christian tradition had not yet deviated from the Biblical. Thus Absolute Reformation necessitates a return to the Biblical Holidays. These two examples are just the beginning. Absolute Reformation involves a complete re-thinking, restructuring and renewal of Christian form and observance. No theological premise can be above scrutiny. No deep-rooted tradition can be beyond review. More than just another reformation, Absolute Reformation is a revolution.



Absolute Reconstruction

Spiritual Archaeology

As an archaeologist begins to dig at an ancient city, he often uncovers layer after layer of civilizations that have occupied and built upon the same piece of earth. The first layers he uncovers are the most recent, sometimes the remains of streets and houses from only a few generations ago. The further he digs, the deeper the layers he uncovers. The deeper the layer, the older the civilization, the older, the closer to the authentic. At the bottom is the very last layer to be uncovered, the remains of the original city.

Returning to the First Century Church model is very much like a spiritual archaeological dig. There are layers upon layers to be sifted through. Hundreds of years of structures have been built over the top of the original Church. The amount of debris is enormous. Sorting through the rubble for authenticity is slow and painstaking work. Yet the result of clearing away the subsequent layers is the revelation of the original structure, the First Century Church.

This is the journey that the Messianic Jewish movement, wittingly or unwittingly, has embarked upon. By attempting to return Judaism to the Church, or better yet, return the Church to Judaism, the Messianic Jewish Movement began the process of digging at the original foundations. Layer after layer of debris must be removed before the foundations before the original Church will be fully exposed, but the work has been begun.

Absolute Reformation will not be content to merely pick at the foundations. Absolute Reformation is not even content to simply clear the original layer of debris for the purpose of study. Absolute Reformation intends to clear the old foundations in order to rebuild on top of them according to the original structures.

Absolute Reformation does not pretend that 2,000 years of Church history can be ignored or even disregarded. Rather, Absolute Reformation holds a debt of gratitude for bringing the faith through the generations. It is not the goal of Absolute Reformation to discard Christianity and return to Judaism. It is the goal of Absolute Reformation to restore the original shape of Christianity.





Isa 58 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins. 2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God. 3 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD? 6 Is not this the fast that I have chosen? to loose the bands of wickedness, to undo the heavy burdens, and to let the oppressed go free, and that ye break every yoke? 7 Is it not to deal thy bread to the hungry, and that thou bring the poor that are cast out to thy house? when thou seest the naked, that thou cover him; and that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh? 8 Then shall thy light break forth as the morning, and thine health shall spring forth speedily: and thy righteousness shall go before thee; the glory of the LORD shall be thy rereward. 9 Then shalt thou call, and the LORD shall answer; thou shalt cry, and he shall say, Here I am. If thou take away from the midst of thee the yoke, the putting forth of the finger, and speaking vanity; 10 And if thou draw out thy soul to the hungry, and satisfy the afflicted soul; then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noon day: 11 And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not. 12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.

[visionary]

By faith, we have come this far, having been in a far off country and now sojourners in this, we have more tolerance, and longsuffering for those who are lost. By faith, we have experienced the movement upon God's Holy Word to mean different things in different situations and know that it is true for the moments, wisdom for the centuries, and promised for the future. By this latitude, we are not as critical of others in their spiritual journey, because we understand a little more on how God works in each and every situation. We truly believe that God will be the ultimate judge, and therefore leave it in His hands.

We do not believe that we know all the truth, and that everyone needs to conform to exactly as we see it. We know that there is more light, because the latter rain is coming, and we know that we must continue to walk in the path that the Holy Spirit has laid before us. By us coming together and sharing our thoughts, understandings, and studies, we prayerful are considerate, lovingly praying for those who present and for ourselves in receiving each and every presentation for the Spirit of God in them.

We are not defending any man made organization, which makes it easy for us to pick up study and lay back down things that we do not fully understand or know whether it is of God. We are more watchful to see if the Lord's hand is in it. We can be because it is not a criteria to belong. Bottom line....Our faith rests in God.

[jgonz]

I don't post much, but I read everything here and it's a Blessing to me. Thank you all. :)

[queenm04]

I think you may be on to something Queen...yep thems wize words:thumbsup:


Woz just trying to say those that dont observe Shabbat don't know what they're missing... indeed!!!


Am working at observing every Shabbat. Be praying for me...


love you my sister!

[Tishri1]

Woz just trying to say those that dont observe Shabbat don't know what they're missing... indeed!!!


Am working at observing every Shabbat. Be praying for me...


love you my sister!I will and you can pray for me too... I find with out my DH's heart in it something seems to always come up and I'm left holding the Challah..alone:sigh:

love you too sis:hug:

[Shamash Of Yeshua]

Everyone here seems to operate like a family.
Yes, there are family arguments every now and then, but for the most part we are all just fellow brothers and sisters in Yeshua learning about Messianic Judaism.

How loving can one be when they see another breaking down and that one person or persons reach out in love. When the one breaking down BITES and CLAWS, yet, that person(s) continue in Love, reaching out.

That is how this place is different. I have went to churches that say they aren't here to help others literally while one in particular said we have $50,000 to spend and wouldn't even offer to help someone out that didn't have a job and their car broke down. Reckon this one wasn't ready for change and was in the wrong place. Glad they didn't help, well sort of, considering I might of delayed coming to MJ. All other sources of fellowship cut off I came here to CF. I posted like over 500 posts as Servant of Jesus if I remember right. Then the BIG CRASH and wham all my posts GONE. So I chose this nick, I think after I came to MJ. It is all a blur now.

And Steve Petersen who ever you are. I agree with much you have shared here since you joined. This last thing really touches me. I now want the books D.Thomas Lancaster has written so I can read more.

[queenm04]

I will and you can pray for me too... I find with out my DH's heart in it something seems to always come up and I'm left holding the Challah..alone:sigh:

love you too sis:hug:


Yes. I have that syndrome as well, 'things keep coming up'...will be praying for you too. :thumbsup:

[Steve Petersen]

And Steve Petersen who ever you are. I agree with much you have shared here since you joined. This last thing really touches me. I now want the books D.Thomas Lancaster has written so I can read more.

He is the Educational Director at Firstfruits of Zion (www.ffoz.org (http://www.ffoz.org/)). He has written Mystery of the Gospel and Torah Club, Volume 4 and 5. Another of his books is being published soon, titled Restoration. He is regular contributor to messiah magazine and also has articles at www.bethimmanuel.org (http://www.bethimmanuel.org) :)

[Tishri1]

I have his Video Y3K from FFOZ it is awesome...and my favorite article is "Korban: To Draw Near":clap::clap:One of my favorite Torah Teachers...Isn't he a personal friend of yours?

[Steve Petersen]

I have his Video Y3K from FFOZ it is awesome...and my favorite article is "Korban: To Draw Near":clap::clap:One of my favorite Torah Teachers...Isn't he a personal friend of yours?

:) Yeah, but I hate to be a name dropper. I attend his congregation in Shoreview, MN.

[plum]

Daniel Lancaster is awesome! Of course I'm just a huge FFOZ fan too. So much wisdom and love coming from that group.

[debi b]

Do you know how old Daniel is?

[Steve Petersen]

Do you know how old Daniel is?

37

[insaneinthebrain]

Daniel Lancaster is awesome! Of course I'm just a huge FFOZ fan too. So much wisdom and love coming from that group.
I'm also quite fond of Tim Hegg. His What's So New About the New Covenant? DVD is really good.

[Wags]

I just got FFOZ's new seminar DVD "Trembling at the Word" am looking forward to watching it on Erev Shabbat. Has anyone seen it yet?

[plum]

We should just make a FFOZ thread ;)

I'm loving Torah Club! I'm also watching What's So New...

[insaneinthebrain]

I just got FFOZ's new seminar DVD "Trembling at the Word" am looking forward to watching it on Erev Shabbat. Has anyone seen it yet?
I've only watched session one thus far.

[Wags]

I've only watched session one thus far.

What do you think of it so far? Up to par with their previous seminars?