Looking for a source

[FreeinChrist]

I am wondering if anyone knows of a good resource (besides the Bible but refers to scrpture :) ) for defending the existence of hell and that the wicked will suffer eternally (as opposed to annihilationism)..... any suggestions?

[JimfromOhio]

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

http://www.helltopia.com/Christian_Apologetics_-_Hell/christian_apologetics_-_hell.htm

http://www.rbc.org/ds/q1002/point4c.html

[bleechers]

Can't help you there... I believe there is a "Lake of Fire" but that is not "hell."

Hell is the grave.

Punishment need not be eternal to be fair and just.

[mesue]

Can't help you there... I believe there is a "Lake of Fire" but that is not "hell."

Hell is the grave.

Punishment need not be eternal to be fair and just.
There is a hell, it's not the grave and it is eternal. Jesus gives us plenty of warning in Mark:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[bleechers]

There is a hell, it's not the grave and it is eternal. Jesus gives us plenty of warning in Mark:

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mark 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mark 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mark 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

This is what you preach? So I cannot have eternal life if I offend God by my hand or by my eye? The Greek word there is "Gehenna" which is a particular place outside of Jerusalem.

Where does the broad road lead to?

What does John 3:16 warn of if someone doesn't believe?

What is the warning given in John 3:36?

[FreeinChrist]

http://www.av1611.org/hell.html

http://www.helltopia.com/Christian_Apologetics_-_Hell/christian_apologetics_-_hell.htm

http://www.rbc.org/ds/q1002/point4c.html

Thanks!

[mesue]

This is what you preach? So I cannot have eternal life if I offend God by my hand or by my eye? The Greek word there is "Gehenna" which is a particular place outside of Jerusalem.

Where does the broad road lead to?

What does John 3:16 warn of if someone doesn't believe?

What is the warning given in John 3:36?
That is what Jesus said. Don't be mad at me. I was merely pointing what our Lord and Savior said about the eternity of hell to which you seem to disagree with Him on. As to what John 3:16 says about those who don't believe?
Go back to verses 3-7 of that very same chapter.

[bleechers]

That is what Jesus said. Don't be mad at me. I was merely pointing what our Lord and Savior said about the eternity of hell to which you seem to disagree with Him on. As to what John 3:16 says about those who don't believe?
Go back to verses 3-7 of that very same chapter.

Oh, I'm not mad... see :D

In John 3, those who don't believe "perish." Where in vs. 3-7 does he threaten unbelief with eternal punishment?

Did you have an answer for my question about the broad road? Where does it lead?

Look at "hell" in the OT. Just look in the Psalms and in Proverbs. It is the place of the dead. In Christ we are promised a resurrection body. Jesus said of those who believe "though he die, yet shall he live." Why? Because the "gates of hell" cannot prevail. The grave cannot hold us in corruption.

Since Satan doesn't live in hell nor rule from there (sorry Carman), what are the "gates of hell" to you and how can gates prevail apart from holding in its hostages?

Jesus came to conquer "death, hell, and the grave." Do you mean he came to conquer a place of torment? What does that mean?

How does hell give up those that are in it in Revelation? Why? If these are people already in eternal torment why is hell giving them up for judgment (Rev 20)?

What does it mean that Jesus has the keys of "hell" and of "death" (Rev 1)?

Does Paul ever warn anyone of the hell you describe? Why not?

[mesue]

Oh, I'm not mad... see :D




I'm glad you're not mad, it is not my intention to provoke you to anger or make you think ill of others. :hug:

In John 3, those who don't believe "perish." Where in vs. 3-7 does he threaten unbelief with eternal punishment?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Jesus came to conquer "death, hell, and the grave." Do you mean he came to conquer a place of torment? What does that mean?
When we are saved, we are no longer condemed.
Jesus said:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

What does it mean that Jesus has the keys of "hell" and of "death" (Rev 1)?

Whom do you think created hell? It would stand to reason that the Creator holds the keys to all He creates.
Does Paul ever warn anyone of the hell you describe? Why not?
Does that matter?
Jesus, God, Creator said there was a hell. Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?

[bleechers]

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

Let me ask again... where in there is anyone threatened with eternal torment?

When we are saved, we are no longer condemed.
Jesus said:
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Amen... again where in there is "condemnation" equated with eternal toment?

Whom do you think created hell? It would stand to reason that the Creator holds the keys to all He creates.

Great but that doesn't answer my question. Why is that a key word that He uses there? He must be using it for a purpose.

Does that matter?
Jesus, God, Creator said there was a hell. Are you saying that Jesus was wrong?

Of course it matters. Since Paul was given the specific calling of bringing the gospel to the Gentiles don't you think it odd that he NEVER mentions a place of eternal torment?

Jesus wasn't wrong, but He wasn't talking about a place where disembodied souls (is there such a thing?) are tormented in fire for all eternity. And Jesus doesn't warn that unbelief leads to Gehenna, but rather lack of service and/or evil works.

Again, where does the broad road lead? :)

[mesue]

Again, where does the broad road lead? :)
you tell me, since I obviously have no knowlesge of sound Biblical doctrine.

[Flynmonkie]

Again, where does the broad road lead? :)
To put it easily and nicely.....a "total seperation from God" Blatently to "dust"

Can't help you there... I believe there is a "Lake of Fire" but that is not "hell."
Hell is the grave.
Punishment need not be eternal to be fair and just.

I have to agree with you there.

[bleechers]

you tell me, since I obviously have no knowlesge of sound Biblical doctrine.

Now now, I never said any such thing. :) Remember, it was you who accused me of saying that Jesus was wrong.

The answer is "destruction."

"Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it."

You pointed us to John 3 and to John 5. I agree that we must be born again. I agree that faith in Christ is the only way to life and that in Him is the promise of no condemnation. But what is not there (or in any of Paul's preaching of the gospel) is any mention of eternal torment.

You will find it no where in the Old Testament. The end of the wicked is always destruction. Adam wasn't warned that he'd go to a place of eternal torment if he sinned, only that he would die.

You will only see references to everlasting punishment in regard to Satan and/or works judgments in light of the Kingdom (Israel). You do not see it as a result of unbelief.

[DawnTillery]

Rev 20, from what I understand is after the 1000 year reign, they are judged at that point and casted into the Lake of fire and its for eternity.. (These are the Unsaved people) Unsaved people don't go to Heaven, so they are condemned - they are in Hell at that point (See below) after the 1000 year reign, they are then casted into the lake of fire which is forever...

What about Lazarus and the Rich man... The Rich Man was in HELL...
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24

[bleechers]

Good points. :)

Rev 20, from what I understand is after the 1000 year reign, they are judged at that point and casted into the Lake of fire and its for eternity.. (These are the Unsaved people) Unsaved people don't go to Heaven, so they are condemned - they are in Hell at that point (See below) after the 1000 year reign, they are then casted into the lake of fire which is forever...

Note in Revelation 20 that only Satan is said to go to everlasting punishment (v.10). The ones who are brought out of "hell" there (v. 13; not a place of firery torment by the way or the whole passage makes no sense) are those who specifically do not have their names written in the Boom of Life (v. 15). Also note: they are cast into the Lake of Fire which is not the "hell" he just mentioned in verse 13.

Anyway, we have to look at Rev 13 to see who this specific group is. "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." These are people who worshiped the Beast in the Tribulation.

Again, just as with Jesus, this judgment is a judgment of works and is done in light of the earthly Kingdom. Jesus' earthly ministry was to Israel only. Just as in the gospels, the Revelation is a Jewish context. You will not find any warning for "unbelief" along these lines.

What about Lazarus and the Rich man... The Rich Man was in HELL...
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Luke 16:24

Well, this is a parable. We don't look to parables to establish doctrines. Their purpose was contain either hidden truth (difficult to understand) or to show the foolishness of the doctrines taught by men.

If you want to say that that parable is about salvation you're going to have to explain why each is in the place he is. Does one earn salvation via poverty? Does one earn torment because he is rich? Is it true that our eternal fate is merely the opposite of our human existence? Is that what we preach?

That parable was a mockery of Pharisee doctrine. It contains no faith, no cross, no blood and no Jesus! Abraham is in the grave. Jesus said that no man has gone to heaven except the son. Peter tells us in Acts that David is still in the grave.

Would you argue that Jesus was teaching us to be unjust stewards as well since he praises the unjust steward in another parable?

[Pilgrim 33]

Not taking sides in this discussion, just making a little side comment.
"total seperation from God"
This oft heard comment is not a scriptural statement, is without scriptural foundation, serves only to confuse and results in a copout when scriptural proof is unable to be found. iow it can mean anything anyone wants it to mean when proof of everlasting torment cannot scripturally be presented or as an opposition to scriptural evidences against eternal torment and, essentially, in this regard, is little more than a poorly worded non sequitur trump card that is tossed out anywhere along the train of thought. It is used most often by those that are either unable to study and search the scriptures to any serious depth or are unwilling and resort to proof texting in an attempt to bolster preconceived notions and beliefs. fwiw, imo it is far better to use scripture than to resort to this modern day neo-humanistic phrase.

[FreeinChrist]

I am hoping for more sources (the topic of the thread :) ) and am hoping there is a site that explains how 'hell' is sometimes the grave and other times refers to Sheol.

And info, anyone?

[Pilgrim 33]

I am hoping for more sources (the topic of the thread :) ) and am hoping there is a site that explains how 'hell' is sometimes the grave and other times refers to Sheol.

And info, anyone?

THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS FOR "HELL", ETC.


"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T. The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide. It is in the N.T. used as the translation of two Greek words :--


Gehenna. Gr. geenna. This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom, i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.

In the O.T. Tophet was the Heb. word used, because it was a place in this valley.

In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, "geenna of fire". See 2Kings 23:10. Isa. 30:33. Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:11-14. Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", viz. Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33. Mark 9:45, 47. Luke 12:5. Jas. 3:6.
Hades. Gr. hades, from a (privative) and idein, to see (Ap. 133. I. i (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append133.html)); used by the Greeks for the unseen world. The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them. The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Ps. 12:6). From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".

The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sheol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.

Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts 2:27, 31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10, He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Ps. 16:10 is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.

The word occurs eleven times (Matt. 11:23; 16:18. Luke 10:15; 16:23. Acts 2:27, 31. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" (1Cor. 15:55, marg. "hell"). In the R.V. the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in 1Cor. 15:55 (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade), and in the American R.V. also.

As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol, further light may be gained from Ap. 35 (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append35.html), and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the N.T. (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sheol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).

"The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (Germ. sterbend, for w 6a2 hich we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show.
The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Num. 16:30, 33. Job 17:16).
The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades. For, as to direction, it is always down: as to place, it is in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deut. 32:22-25 and 1Sam. 2:6-8); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen. 37:34, 35), sorrow (Gen. 42:38. 2Sam. 22:6. Ps. 18:5; 116:3), fright and terror (Num. 16:27, 34) mourning (Isa. 38:3, 10, 17, 18), silence (Ps. 6:5; 31:17. Ecc. 9:10), no knowledge (Ecc. 9:5, 6, 10), punishment (Num. 16:29, 34. 1Kings 2:6, 9. Job 24:19. Ps. 9:17 (R.V. = re-turned), corruption (Ps. 16:10. Acts 2:27, 31); as to duration resurrection is the only exit from it (Ps. 16:11. Acts 2:27, 31; 13:33-37. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 20:5, 13, 14).

Tartaroo (occurs only in 2Pet. 2:4) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Sept. Homer describes it as subterranean (cp. Deut. 32:22, which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim, Ap. 25 (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append25.html)), who rebelled against Zeus.

[PapaLandShark]

That's an awesome amount of work there...but could you boil it down a bit? :)

[Pilgrim 33]

That's an awesome amount of work there...but could you boil it down a bit? :)
Nope.
..........II Timothy 2:15
................................. :sorry:

[FreeinChrist]

Well, I was looking for an authoritiative source, but this is interesting, and have read some of these views before, but mostly by Seventh Day Adventists. They usually like to try and imply that 'hell' is based on Greek mythology rather than scripture....and beleive in annihilationism and soul sleep.
THE SYNONYMOUS WORDS FOR "HELL", ETC.


"Hell" is the English rendering of two different Greek words in the N.T. The English word is from the Anglo-Saxon hel, Genitive case helle = a hidden place, from the Anglo-Saxon helan = to hide. It is in the N.T. used as the translation of two Greek words :--

Gehenna. Gr. geenna. This is the transliteration of the Heb. Gai' Hinnom, i.e. the Valley of Hinnom or "the Valley" of [the sons of] Hinnom, where were the fires through which children were passed in the worship of Moloch.

In the O.T. Tophet was the Heb. word used, because it was a place in this valley.

In our Lord's day the idolatry had ceased, but the fires were still continually burning there for the destruction of the refuse of Jerusalem. Hence, geenna was used for the fires of destruction associated with the judgment of God. Sometimes, "geenna of fire". See 2Kings 23:10. Isa. 30:33. Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:11-14. Geenna occurs 12 times, and is always rendered "hell", viz. Matt. 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15, 33. Mark 9:45, 47. Luke 12:5. Jas. 3:6.
Hades. Gr. hades, from a (privative) and idein, to see (Ap. 133. I. i (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append133.html)); used by the Greeks for the unseen world. The meaning which the Greeks put upon it does not concern us; nor have we anything to do with the imaginations of the heathen, or the traditions of Jews or Romanists, or the teachings of demons or evil spirits, or of any who still cling to them. The Holy Spirit has used it as one of the "words pertaining to the earth", and in so doing has "purified" it, "as silver tried in a furnace" (see notes on Ps. 12:6). From this we learn that His own words "are pure", but words belonging to this earth have to be "purified".

The Old Testament is the fountain head of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew Sheol is a word Divine in its origin and usage. The Greek Hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.

Seeing that the Holy Spirit has used it in Acts 2:27, 31 as His own equivalent of Sheol in Psalm 16:10, He has settled, once for all, the sense in which we are to understand it. The meaning He has given to Sheol in Ps. 16:10 is the one meaning we are to give it wherever it occurs in the N.T., whether we transliterate it or translate it. We have no liberty to do otherwise, and must discard everything outside the Word of God.

The word occurs eleven times (Matt. 11:23; 16:18. Luke 10:15; 16:23. Acts 2:27, 31. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14); and is rendered "hell" in every passage except one, where it is rendered "grave" (1Cor. 15:55, marg. "hell"). In the R.V. the word is always transliterated "Hades", except in 1Cor. 15:55 (where "death" is substituted because of the reading, in all the texts, of thanate for hade), and in the American R.V. also.

As Hades is the Divine Scriptural equivalent of Sheol, further light may be gained from Ap. 35 (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append35.html), and a reference to the 65 passages there given. It may be well to note that while "Hades" is rendered "hell" in the N.T. (except once, where the rendering "the grave" could not be avoided), Sheol, its Hebrew equivalent, occurs 65 times, and is rendered "the grave" 31 times (or 54%); "hell" 31 times (4 times with margin "the grave", reducing it to 41.5%); and "pit" only 3 times (or 4.5 %).

"The grave", therefore, is obviously the best rendering, meaning the state of death (Germ. sterbend, for w 6a2 hich we have no English equivalent); not the act of dying, as an examination of all the occurrences of both words will show.
The rendering "pit" so evidently means "the grave" that it may at once be substituted for it (Num. 16:30, 33. Job 17:16).
The rendering "the grave" (not "a grave", which is Hebrew keber or bor) exactly expresses the meaning of both Sheol and Hades. For, as to direction, it is always down: as to place, it is in the earth: as to relation, it is always in contrast with the state of the living (Deut. 32:22-25 and 1Sam. 2:6-8); as to association, it is connected with mourning (Gen. 37:34, 35), sorrow (Gen. 42:38. 2Sam. 22:6. Ps. 18:5; 116:3), fright and terror (Num. 16:27, 34) mourning (Isa. 38:3, 10, 17, 18), silence (Ps. 6:5; 31:17. Ecc. 9:10), no knowledge (Ecc. 9:5, 6, 10), punishment (Num. 16:29, 34. 1Kings 2:6, 9. Job 24:19. Ps. 9:17 (R.V. = re-turned), corruption (Ps. 16:10. Acts 2:27, 31); as to duration resurrection is the only exit from it (Ps. 16:11. Acts 2:27, 31; 13:33-37. 1Cor. 15:55. Rev. 1:18; 20:5, 13, 14).

Tartaroo (occurs only in 2Pet. 2:4) = to thrust down to Tartarus, Tartarus being a Greek word, not used elsewhere, or at all in the Sept. Homer describes it as subterranean (cp. Deut. 32:22, which may refer to this). The Homeric Tartarus is the prison of the Titans, or giants (cp. Heb. Rephaim, Ap. 25 (http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append25.html)), who rebelled against Zeus.
Tartaroo does occur in II Peter 2:4 - and I do not believe Peter is deferring to Greek mythology, but to the actuall existence of a place. It is not the grave or Hades (Sheol):


2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell (tartaros) and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;

In a number of places in KJV, hell is used of the grave, to simply indicate death.
However, we know that there was a place for the OT saints to wait prior to the resurrection of Christ, as shown by Jesus in the following passage - an no, Jesus is not in this one place advocating a Greek mythology:

Luk 16:19 "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day.

Luk 16:20 "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores,

Luk 16:21 and longing to be fed with the {crumbs} which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.

Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.

Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

Luk 16:24 "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Luk 16:25 "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.

Luk 16:26 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and {that} none may cross over from there to us.'

Luk 16:27 "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house--Luk 16:28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

Luk 16:29 "But Abraham *said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.'

Luk 16:30 "But he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!'

Luk 16:31 "But he said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' "

It is not permanent, and is referrred to by Christ:
Mat 11:23 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day.

Mat 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it.

Luk 10:15 "And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will be brought down to Hades!
Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.


Hades will eventually be thrown into the lake of fire. See Rev. 20.

And yes, gehenna is also tranlsated as 'hell', and is a place of buring, referring to the Valley of Hinnon.
However, gehenna is the place of the condemned:

Mat 5:29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.(gehenna)

Mat 5:30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.(gehenna)
Mat 23:15 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell (gehenna) as yourselves.

[Pilgrim 33]

Seventh Day Adventists. They usually like to try and imply that 'hell' is based on Greek mythology rather than scripture

In THAT they are most correct. Hell is predominantly found in all pagan religions. But, except for what filtered in during the Jewish periods of captivity, hell is not a Jewish concept. Nor is it a New Testament concept. The word, hell, is an ENGLISH word that did not come into play until the Middle Ages and became finally enshrined into the hallowed walls of Christendom by the Catholic church and their poets and authors of the Middle Ages who helped immeasureably in that regard with their inglorious paintings and authored ramblings of how they perceived what hell must be like.

[Pilgrim 33]

As far as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, hell and eternal torment are not the subject or purpose of its telling, if they will not believe Moses and the prophets neither will they believe one that came back from the dead is, however, the prophetic subject but, then, we've already previously covered that.

[FreeinChrist]

In THAT they are most correct. Hell is predominantly found in all pagan religions. But, except for what filtered in during the Jewish periods of captivity, hell is not a Jewish concept. Nor is it a New Testament concept. The word, hell, is an ENGLISH word that did not come into play until the Middle Ages and became finally enshrined into the hallowed walls of Christendom by the Catholic church and their poets and authors of the Middle Ages who helped immeasureably in that regard with their inglorious paintings and authored ramblings of how they perceived what hell must be like.

No, they aren't correct.

And I prefer to base my beliefs about 'hell' from the Hebrew and Greek words in scripture, and the descriptions provided in scripture. In the KJV, 'hell' means the grave a number of times, but it also means Sheol (Hades) in others......and a place of buring, and tartaroo is referred to as an actual place of existence - the nature of which we do not know.

And Jesus didn't stoop to include Greek mythology in His teaching, and neither did Peter.

Mat 13:41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Mat 13:42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 13:49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous,

Mat 13:50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mat 25:45 "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'

Mat 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."




Luk 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Luk 13:25 "Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'

Luk 13:26 "Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets';

Luk 13:27 and He will say, 'I tell you, I do not know where you are from; DEPART FROM ME, ALL YOU EVILDOERS.'

Luk 13:28 "In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being thrown out.

[FreeinChrist]

As far as the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, hell and eternal torment are not the subject or purpose of its telling, if they will not believe Moses and the prophets neither will they believe one that came back from the dead is, however, the prophetic subject but, then, we've already previously covered that.

It doesn't matter whether hell and eternal torment were the subject of the telling. Jesus was NOT using Greek mythology - He stuck with truth. 'Abraham's bosum' is referred to as an actual place.

From http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_go.htm
Where did Jesus go after He died on the cross?


The Bible does not specifically state what happened to Jesus immediately after He died on the cross. Because of this, there is debate surrounding the answer to the question of where He went and what He did. So, I will present differing views so you might know the scope of the answer and decide for yourself which position is preferable.
Perhaps the best known scripture that appears to deal with this issue is found in 1 Pet. 3:18-20 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Pet/1Pet_3.htm#15),

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water."

When Jesus was made alive in the spirit, it is not saying that His spirit died and then it became alive again. "Made alive in the spirit" is contrasted with "put to death in the flesh." He first lived as mortal men but "...He began to live a spiritual 'resurrection' life, whereby He has the power to bring us to God."1 (http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_go.htm#1) Furthermore, some Bibles (NIV, KJV, and NKJV) render the verse as "made alive by the Spirit," referring to the Holy Spirit's work with Christ. “By the Spirit” translates one word, pneumati, which could refer to the third Person of the Trinity (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/trinity.htm) as the agent of Christ’s resurrection.2 (http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_go.htm#2)
One view where Jesus was and what He did before His resurrection is that He went to Hades (the place of the dead) and made proclamation to those who were in spiritual prison. The word "proclamation" in Greek is kerusso. It means to proclaim and is a different word than "euaggelizo" which means to preach the gospel. Therefore, it is most probable that Jesus was not preaching the gospel to those in Hades/Spirit prison so they could be saved, but was instead proclaiming the truth to them. After all, the Bible says, "And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment," (Heb. 9:27 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Heb/Heb_9.htm#as)).
But who were the ones in spiritual prison? Some believe it is the people who were alive at the time of Noah's flood and who were killed in the flood. Others believe it is all humanity who died before the time of the cross. There seems to be support for the former position in 2 Pet. 2:4-5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Pet/2Pet_2.htm#1),

"For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly."

Needless to say, this passage also raises many questions and much debate can be found as to its precise meaning. Nevertheless, as far as the other option goes, that Jesus simply presented the facts concerning His work on the cross to those in spiritual prison, we can look to Eph. 4:8-9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Eph/eph_4.htm#4) for possible support.

"When He ascended on high, He led captive a host of captives, and He gave gifts to men. 9 Now this expression, 'He ascended,' what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things...

Some theologians believe that during the three days between Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, He descended into Abraham's bosom3 (http://www.carm.org/questions/Jesus_go.htm#3) (Luke 16:19-31 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_16.htm#was)), proclaimed to them the mystery of the gospel, and then led them into heaven to dwell with God. The belief is that they were not permitted to enter into the presence of God in heaven until after the atonement. Once that had happened, Jesus who had died, descended to Abraham's bosom, proclaimed the gospel, and then led its residents into heaven.
So, even though we cannot precisely determine where Jesus was and what He did during those three days, it seems apparent that He presented the gospel message (not to have them get saved) to those in spirit prison and possibly also to those in Abraham's bosom.

_____________________
1. Jamieson, Robert; Fausset, A.R.; and Brown, David, Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible, (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.) 1998.
2. Walvoord, John F., and Zuck, Roy B., The Bible Knowledge Commentary, (Wheaton, Illinois: Scripture Press Publications, Inc.) 1983, 1985.
3. Abraham's bosom seems to have been the pre-crucifixion holding place for those people who had died in expectant hope of the coming Messiah.

[FreeinChrist]

I have found this:

http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm
Hell

Hell is one of those subjects that makes people uncomfortable. We hear stories of hell being a place of fire, demons, and endless torment. Throughout history many authors have written about it, Dante's Inferno for example. Western culture is very familiar with the concept. Even Hollywood has made it the subject of many movies. Whatever the context, whatever the belief, hell is definitely taught in the Bible. But even the doctrine of hell is not without its controversy. Some say it is only the grave with no consciousness. Others say it is a place of correction and punishment that is not eternal. Others say it is an endless agonizing punishment in fire. Whichever it is, hell is the total absence of the favor of God.

The words associated with Hell

Gehenna
In the OT, the word for hell is 'ge-hinnom' meaning "Valley of Hinnom." It was a place to the southwest of Jerusalem. This place was once "called 'Topheth' and derived from an Aramaic word meaning 'fireplace.' It was here that some pagan kings practiced human sacrifice by fire (2 Chron. 28:3 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Chron/2Chron_28.htm#1); 33:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Chron/2Chron_33.htm#6); Jer. 7:31 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Jer/Jer_7.htm#31); 32:25 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Jer/Jer_32.htm#22))(1) (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm#N_1_). This is probably why in the NT the word came to be associated with destruction by fire. The word 'gehenna' is found in the NT 12 times and every instance is spoken of by Jesus. In the NT, "gehenna" is used of a condition and never of a place.

Hades
This word only occurs in the NT, ten times, and corresponds to the OT word "sheol." Jesus uses the word four times: Matt. 11:23 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_11.htm#20); 16:18 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_16.htm#16); Luke 10:15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_10.htm#15); 16:23 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_16.htm#was). The other six occur in Acts 2:27 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_2.htm#23),31 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_2.htm#28); Rev. 1:18 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_1.htm#And); 6:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_6.htm#8); 20:13,14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#12).
It was probably the "subterranean abode of all the dead until the judgment. It was divided into two departments, paradise or Abraham's bosom for the good, and Gehenna or hell for the bad."(2) (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm#N_2_) In particular, in the account of Lazarus and the Rich man of (Luke 16:19-31 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_16.htm#was)), it is the place of the conscious dead who are wicked.

Sheol
"The Hebrew word Sheol is probably derived from a root "to make hollow," and was seen as the common receptacle of the dead and in the great many places the word appears in the OT, it is referring to the grave.(3) (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm#N_3_) It is a place and is mentioned in Gen. 37:35 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_37.htm#35); Num. 16:30,33 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Num/Num_16.htm#30); Psalm 16:10 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_16.htm#10), etc. Sheol has many meanings in scripture: the grave, the underworld, the state of the dead. It was supposed to be below the surface of the earth (Ezek. 31:15,17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Ezek/Ezek_31.htm#15); Psalm 86:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_86.htm#12)).

Is Hell Eternal Conscious Torment?

There are some Christian groups and many cults that deny the idea that hell, in the general sense, means eternal, conscious punishment. Some maintain that God's eternal punishment is annihilation, or non-existence. Others say it is temporal and that eventually all will be saved out of hell. Perhaps the most common objection is that a loving God would never punish people in eternal torment. We agree that God is love (1 John 4:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1John/1John_4.htm#is 1)), but He is also just (Neh. 9:32-33 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Neh/Neh_9.htm#No); 2 Thess. 1:6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/2Thess/2Thess_1.htm#1)), and eternal (Psalm 90:2 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_90.htm#1); 1 Tim. 1:17 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Tim/1Tim_1.htm#16) ). God punishes the evil doer (Isaiah 11:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Isaiah/Isaiah_11.htm#12)) and this punishment will be eternal. But the question remains. Is this eternal punishment conscious or not?
There are verses that can be interpreted to support the idea that the dead are not conscious after death: (Ecc. 9:5 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Ecc/Ecc_9.htm#1) - the dead know nothing(4) (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm#N_4_) and Psalm 146:4 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Psalms/Psalm_146.htm#1) - their thoughts perish, are good examples.) Other verses compare the dead to sleep: Acts 13:36 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Acts/acts_13.htm#32); 1 Cor. 15:1-6 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Cor/1cor_15.htm#ov); 1 Thess. 4:13 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/1Thess/1Thess_4.htm#10), etc. But these latter verses are merely comparing the similarity between the appearance of the dead and the appearance of someone sleeping.

The Dead are Conscious After Death

The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Num/Num_16.htm#30), "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_8.htm#12), "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_13.htm#38), "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50. (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_13.htm#49)

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_14.htm#8), "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_21.htm#8).

Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment

Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_3.htm#10) "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_5.htm#22), "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_5.htm#Ye).

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_18.htm#Where), "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_25.htm#he), "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_25.htm#go), "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
The word 'eternal' in both places is "aionios" which means 1)without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2)without beginning; 3)without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word 'punishment' is the word kolasis and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"(5) (http://www.carm.org/doctrine/hell.htm#N_5_)

Eternal Fire
Jude 7 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Jude/Jude_1.htm#4), "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Rev/Rev_20.htm#15), "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

In Luke 16:19-31 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Luke/luke_16.htm#was) is the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Basically, Lazarus is a poor man who suffers during life. The rich man is, of course, rich. They both die. The rich man goes to Hades. Lazarus goes to Abraham's bosom, another term for paradise. In Hades, the rich man lifts up his eyes and sees Lazarus far off. He cries out to Abraham and asks for mercy because he is in agony in flame. Abraham says no. Then the rich man asks if someone from the dead were to rise and go tell his brothers not to come to this terrible place. Abraham teaches him that that will not be done either.
Some say that this is a parable. However, if it is, it is unique because no other parable actually names a person. It isn't a story. It is history. It really happened. But many who believe in no consciousness after death will say it is still a parable. The question then is, if it is? What is it teaching? If hell fire is false and if self-awareness after death is also false, then Jesus is using false doctrines to teach a truth. Parables illustrate truth. If it is a parable what does the consciousness after death symbolize? Also, what does the agony in flame symbolize? Are they not real? Of course they are.


Conclusion

Hell is a real place. It is not mere unconsciousness. It is not temporal. It is eternal torment. Perhaps that is why Jesus spoke more of hell than heaven and spent so much time warning people not to go there. After all, if people just stopped existing, why warn them? If it was temporal, they'd get out in a while. But if it were eternal and conscious, then the warning is strong.


Jesus said, "And if your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30"And if your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off, and throw it from you; for it is better for you that one of the parts of your body perish, than for your whole body to go into hell," (Matt. 5:29-30 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Matt/matt_5.htm#Ye)).

_________________

1. Achtemeier, Paul J., Th.D., Harper's Bible Dictionary, (San Francisco: Harper and Row, Publishers, Inc.) 1985.
2. Unger, Merrill F., Unger's Bible Dictionary, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1966, p. 437.
3. Vine, W. E., Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, (Grand Rapids, MI: Fleming H. Revell) 1981.
4. Ecclesiastes is a book that is addressed as things appear "under the sun" (Ecc. 1:3,9,14 (http://www.carm.org/kjv/Ecc/Ecc_1.htm#1), etc.). In fact, the phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in Ecclesiastes, a book written from the human perspective and boldly states that all is vanity.
5. Louw, Johannes P. and Nida, Eugene A., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament based on Semantic Domains, (New York: United Bible Societies) 1988, 1989.

[bleechers]

The Dead are Conscious After Death

"The Dead know nothing." (Eclesiastes) Job also teaches that the dead know nothing. All through the OT, the dead just go to the grave. Adam was told that sin meant "death" not "eternal torment."


What the NT says of David:


Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:24 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand...

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption...


The wicked descend alive into Sheol
Num. 16:30, "But if the Lord brings about an entirely new thing and the ground opens its mouth and swallows them up with all that is theirs, and they descend alive into Sheol, then you will understand that these men have spurned the Lord . . . 33So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly."

Yeah, IN THIS INSTANCE, the earth opened up and people that were alive dropped into their graves. This is NOT the normal pattern. Usually we put dead people into the earth. All throughout the OT people die and go into the grave. This ONE INSTANCE of God's immediate judgment sending live people into the grave does not teach that living souls go apart from their bodies into a place called hell.

If I told you that I saw a movie where a guy was buried alive, would you conclude that he is till conscious somewhere?

In Psalm 6:5, David in his prayer said, "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee. In the grave who shall give Thee thanks?" Also, in Psalm 30:9, "What profit is there in my 'blood' (or life), when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? shall it declare Thy truth?" Lev.17:11 says,"For the life of the flesh is in the blood..."




Cast to outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matt. 8:12, "but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

All the casting into fire in the gospels has to do with the Kingdom and with the judgment of works. I trust that you do not teach as the gospel, what Jesus was teaching in these passages. To wit...

Those cast into the fire suffer consciously
Matt. 13:41-42, "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42and will cast them into the furnace of fire; in that place there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” See also Matt. 13:50.

Where is the gospel? Where is unbelief? You will not find mere unbelief as a cause for people to be cast out of the Kingdom and into fire.

Cast into a tormenting fire
Rev. 14:9-11, "And another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11"And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."” See also, Rev. 21:8.

Yes, look at Rev 20-21. This is a very specific group that HELL coughs up for judgment. Would you suggest that a place of fiery toment coughs up people to be judged and sent back to the same place? Is the sea a place of firery judment too?

"13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades [Hell] gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

Also note in this passage that ONLY Satan is said to go to everlasting punishment (v. 10), but this is never said of those who took the mark of the Beast (v.15).


Hell is a place of eternal fire and punishment
Unquenchable Fire
Matt. 3:12 "And His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

This is John the Baptist preaching the coming Kingdom. As with all the references in Matthew the fire has to do with works and with the Kingdom. The listerners are never told the gospel as we preach it today.

Paul NEVER threatens unbelief with firery eternal torment.

Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.

You believe this is for us? You really believe that if we call someone a fool we will be cast into sternal torment? Is that the gospel you preach and believe? Do I have to answer to the Sanhedrin as well? That is what Jesus said!

Look at the WHOLE verse: "But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

You also believe that we are in danger of the "council" (Sanhedrin)?

While we're in Matthew 5... how about cruising on over to v. 42 ("Give to him that asketh thee..."). Now send me all your assets. :)

Fiery Hell
Matt. 18:8-9, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. 9"And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out, and throw it from you. It is better for you to enter life with one eye, than having two eyes, to be cast into the fiery hell."

This is what you preach? We have to straighten up our lives or we will be cast into eternal torment. You believe this? Do you preach this? This is, again, in regard to the Kingdom and has to do with WORKS perfomance.

Eternal Fire
Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels.

This is the judghment of nations. It also has solely to do with the Kingdom and works. Do you preach this as your gospel. Note in Matt 25: no cross, no blood, no faith, no grace, no Jesus!

Eternal Punishment
Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Ibid.


The word 'eternal' in both places is "aionios" which means 1)without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; 2)without beginning; 3)without end, never to cease, everlasting. The word 'punishment' is the word kolasis and it means "to punish, with the implication of resulting severe suffering - 'to punish, punishment.'"(5)

Doesn't change a thing.

Eternal Fire
Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrah were punished with fire and brimstone. Verse 5 says that unbelievers were "destroyed." Verse 22 says to "pull some out of the fire." Is Jude teaching that we can pull "souls" out of eternal punishment?

Lake of Fire
Rev. 20:15, "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."

See earlier note. This a specific group... they are called up from "hell" for this judgment (i.e. "hell" CANNOT therefore be the "lake of fire")... Satan's punishment is said to be forever, but not their punishment.


Luke 16:19-31, Lazarus and the Rich Man

I covered this in another post. It is a parable. It also has no cross, no blood, no faith, no grace and no Jesus. Do you believe that the gospel is that our eternal fate is merely the opposite of our life here on earth?

[FreeinChrist]

"The Dead know nothing." (Eclesiastes) Job also teaches that the dead know nothing. All through the OT, the dead just go to the grave. Adam was told that sin meant "death" not "eternal torment."


Yet the same writer goes on to say:
Ecc 12:6 {Remember Him} before the silver cord is broken and the golden bowl is crushed, the pitcher by the well is shattered and the wheel at the cistern is crushed;

Ecc 12:7 then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Look at chapter 9 again:
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

So once one dies - that's it? No eternal life? No rejoicing in heaven?
What about this:
Rev 21:4 and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be {any} death; there will no longer be {any} mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
2Cr 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord--

2Cr 5:7 for we walk by faith, not by sight--

2Cr 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

How can we be absent from the body and be with the Lord if there is nothing after death? Paul isn't referrring to the future resurrection here, for that includes the body:
Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.


Of the unbelievers, Jesus told us of Sheol:
Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.






What the NT says of David:


Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Acts 2:24 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand...

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption...


Yes. His BODY saw corruption. The resurrection of the body at the last day is yet to take place, Christ being the firstfruits of that resurrection.
Now as to context:
Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

Act 2:34 "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

Act 2:35 UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.'"

Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus whom you crucified."

In other words - it was not David who rose from the grave (bodily ressurrection) but it was Jesus. Peter is talking to Jews - and giving the gospel message.


In Psalm 6:5, David in his prayer said, "For in death there is no remembrance of Thee. In the grave who shall give Thee thanks?"

Psa 6:4 Return, O LORD, rescue my soul; Save me because of Your lovingkindness.

Psa 6:5 For there is no mention of You in death; In Sheol who will give You thanks?

David is being very poetic here, figuratively showing the dead as entirely separated from this earth and earthly cares. There is no visual or material connection with this life.

And compare all this with:
1Sa 28:14 He said to her, "What is his form?" And she said, "An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe." And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.

1Sa 28:15 Then Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?" And Saul answered, "I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me and no longer answers me, either through prophets or by dreams; therefore I have called you, that you may make known to me what I should do."

1Sa 28:19 "Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!"

1Sa 28:20 Then Saul immediately fell full length upon the ground and was very afraid because of the words of Samuel; also there was no strength in him, for he had eaten no food all day and all night.



Also, in Psalm 30:9, "What profit is there in my 'blood' (or life), when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise Thee? shall it declare Thy truth?"
Context:
Psa 30:2 O LORD my God, I cried to You for help, and You healed me.

Psa 30:3 O LORD, You have brought up my soul from Sheol; You have kept me alive, that I would not go down to the pit.

And the other verse you reference:
Lev.17:11 says,"For the life of the flesh is in the blood..."
yep - the life of the flesh is in the blood - not the spirit.



Yes, look at Rev 20-21. This is a very specific group that HELL coughs up for judgment. Would you suggest that a place of fiery toment coughs up people to be judged and sent back to the same place? Is the sea a place of firery judment too?

"13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades [Hell] gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."



No - the lake of fire is not Sheol, or where the dead are prior to the great white throne judgment.
They aren't sent back to the same place - and I never said they were! I think you are really twisting what I have said and am quoting! Those who are "coughed up" as you say from the sea do not go back to the sea. They are judged. There is a new heaven and new earth - so why would you think the sea is to be fiery - or that I imply that the sea is fiery - honestly, I do not think you are trying to have a serious conversation here, but instead you are misrepresenting my view by twisting it and bringing up untrue assumptions.


Perhaps you didn't clearly read what I wrote, and I don't see that the site I quoted from said that either!

Also note in this passage that ONLY Satan is said to go to everlasting punishment (v. 10), but this is never said of those who took the mark of the Beast (v.15).

Rev 19:20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
All of those judged at the GWTjudgment are those that are not part of the church - and that is alot of people.

Paul NEVER threatens unbelief with firery eternal torment.
What you quoted of my post does not show Paul threatening unbelif with fiery eternal torment - so what is your point?
Paul does write this:
Rom 2:5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
Rom 2:6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

2Th 1:7 and {to give} relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,

2Th 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Paul said that unbelievers will face God's wrath - His retribution.


From the site I quoted:
Fiery Hell
Matt. 5:22, "whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell." See also, Matt. 5:29,30.


You believe this is for us? You really believe that if we call someone a fool we will be cast into sternal torment? Is that the gospel you preach and believe? Do I have to answer to the Sanhedrin as well? That is what Jesus said!
Did you read:
"..shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell"

Aren't we all guilty enough to go into fiery hell?
The only reason we aren't is because we believe in Jesus Christ, and are saved by the sacrifice of His blood! We have been saved by the blood of the Lamb - saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. What Christ is pointing out to the pharisees is that though they kept the law, they still fell short and were worthy of eternal punishment.
The point of bringing this up in the article is that it is being used to show that Jesus DID refer to a fiery hell as a real place. No implication is made that we, as Christians are responsible to the Sanhedrin - where did you get that silliness???


Instead of just reacting and making bad assumptions, Bleechers, why don't you try to actually understand where others are coming from???

Tell you what - when you want to have a civil discussion, I will respond to you again.

[bleechers]

So once one dies - that's it? No eternal life? No rejoicing in heaven?

Not when you're dead, no. You have to wait for the resurrection.

2Cr 5:8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

The context is resurrection. He is groaning for his resurrection not for a disembodied life in heaven. Read for yourself:

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Paul is clearly saying that he'd rather be absent from his earthly tabernacle and be present with the Lord in his heavenly tabernacle (resurrection). Where do see disembodied state in there?

Rom 8:23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for {our} adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

But this makes my point. The "redemption of the body" is resurrection, not a diesmbodied state in heaven.

Of the unbelievers, Jesus told us of Sheol:
Luk 16:22 "Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.Luk 16:23 "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.

For the 4th time, where does this parable say anything about unbelievers? Where does it mention believers? Do you teach that our eternal state is merely the opposite of our life on earth? That is what is said in the parable.

No cross, no blood, no faith, no grace, no Jesus... is that your gospel?

Why didn't Paul warn anybody about this?

David... etc...

Lovely, but where does it say that he is in heaven in a disembodied state? When did he get there? Jesus said that no man had yet ascended to heaven in His ministry and after the cross Peter said that David still hadn't ascended.

Show me anywhere where the scriptures teach that David is in heaven in a disembodied state.

They aren't sent back to the same place - and I never said they were!

That's my question. The text says that "hell" gave them up before they were cast into the Lake of Fire. So "hell" can't be the Lake of Fire that burns for eternity. Thanks for agreeing.


I think you are really twisting what I have said and am quoting! Those who are "coughed up" as you say from the sea do not go back to the sea. They are judged.

That's the point. They are the dead who took the mark of the beast. Why weren't they already in firey torment? Why were some in "hell" and some "in the sea"?

There is a new heaven and new earth - so why would you think the sea is to be fiery - or that I imply that the sea is fiery - honestly, I do not think you are trying to have a serious conversation here, but instead you are misrepresenting my view by twisting it and bringing up untrue assumptions.

I am very serious. I can't help it of you can't follow your own arguments.

I'll challenge anyone to read through our posts and determine who is more consistent.

Paul said that unbelievers will face God's wrath - His retribution.

I never said that unbelievers won't face wrath. Show me where Paul says that that wrath is eternal torment in a fire in a disembodied state?

Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
All of those judged at the GWTjudgment are those that are not part of the church - and that is alot of people.

Honestly, you are not reading my posts very carefully. I already addressed this. The people whose names are not found are the people in Rev 13 who took the mark of the Beast. It never says that those present there are just unbelievers of all time. The "believers" in that chapter are a very specific group as well:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

EVEN SO... for the 4th time... please try and follow this... it STILL doesn't say that they are tormented in fire in a disembodied state for eternity!

In fact, by contrast it says quite the opposite. AGAIN, Satan is said to be tormented for eternity, BUT THAT IS NOT SAID OF ANYONE ELSE.

The chapter is clearly addressing resurrected people. These are not disembodied souls floating around.

Did you read:
"..shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell"

Aren't we all guilty enough to go into fiery hell?
The only reason we aren't is because we believe in Jesus Christ, and are saved by the sacrifice of His blood! We have been saved by the blood of the Lamb - saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. What Christ is pointing out to the pharisees is that though they kept the law, they still fell short and were worthy of eternal punishment.
The point of bringing this up in the article is that it is being used to show that Jesus DID refer to a fiery hell as a real place. No implication is made that we, as Christians are responsible to the Sanhedrin - where did you get that silliness???

Show me where He preaches the gospel anywhere in there?

You really believe that Matthew 5 is for us? OK, then Jesus commanded you to give me all your assets because I asked for them. There are numerous commands Jesus gave that are not for us.

Is the answer to how we get to heaven: obey the commandments? Can I come to your church and preach that? I can tell your congregation that if they sell all they have and give it to the poor, they'll go to heaven?

What about the Sanhedrin? You only quoted part of the verse. Why would he warn of a real threat of a firey place of torment and not tell them the gospel. What is the point of referencing the council?

Can I come to your church and tell your congregation that they cannot go to heaven if something offends God? That's all Jesus warned about... gehenna. You believe He taught that if your eye offends and you don't do anything about it that you cannot go to heaven?

What Christ is pointing out to the pharisees

Context. Why do you see the Pharisees here?

Matthew 5:1 "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him..."

Did He say this to the Pharisees too?...

"Ye are the salt of the earth... Ye are the light of the world."

He was addressing Jews (alone) who were going to enter into the Kingdom. The Kingdom always requires a judgment of WORKS.

[daveleau]

Erickson's Christian Theology (systematic theology book) treats this subject very well.

[FreeinChrist]

For the 4th time, where does this parable say anything about unbelievers? Where does it mention believers? Do you teach that our eternal state is merely the opposite of our life on earth? That is what is said in the parable.


You can't see any unbeleivers in the story of the rich man and Lazarus?
So why was the rich man separated from Abraham's bosum by a chiasm?





No cross, no blood, no faith, no grace, no Jesus... is that your gospel?


bleechers, I have lost all respect for you.

Where in the world do you come up with "my gospel" as no cross, no blood, no faith, no Jesus? Did you even read my post??
What does this statement from my earlier post say?
"We have been saved by the blood of the Lamb - saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. "

Don't you see the words blood, grace, faith and Jesus? Obviously you aren't even reading my post and are just overreacting and assuming wrongly.


And you continue to badly misrepresent what I have said. Otherwise you wouldn't make this rather ignorant statement:


"You really believe that Matthew 5 is for us? OK, then Jesus commanded you to give me all your assets because I asked for them. There are numerous commands Jesus gave that are not for us."


I am putting you on ignore. Obviously this is a waste of time. Beleive as you wish.

[FreeinChrist]

Erickson's Christian Theology (systematic theology book) treats this subject very well.

Thanks! I appreciate that you are responding to my request in the OP.

[P_G]

Requested by the OP