Ordination of Women

[Nova Scotian Boy]

I know the Baptist Convention in my area does not Ordain woemn, but i was told that were each convention is different, sometimes things and views like this varrie. So is there any bodys who's Church Ordains Women, i belive i recall reading somewere that one did, i could be wrong however.

[Diane_Windsor]

Each SBC church is autnomous from the others, so it's up to each local church in my denomination. I have been to SBC churches that have ordained women pastors, and others who do not.

Diane
:wave:

[Maeyken]

the BCOQ (Baptist Convention of Ontario and Quebec) does, I know
I think each church can decide independently though

[labellady]

As far as I know, we don't down here (southeast US) However some churches are different.

[Flynmonkie]

Wow I did not know this; actually I was just getting ready to post question on the topic of women in the Baptist church. I had an interesting conversation with someone recently that told me that women should not be leaders (not that I am aiming for that or even close ;) ) but really socked it to me with the Biblical reason. Cor & Tim. Much to my surprise that I did not believe this is truly how the Baptist faith taught. Is this exclusive to the Calvinist churches? I will try to prepare the post as not to derail this thread. ;)

[TwinCrier]

I believe the American Baptist denomination ordains women.

[Diane_Windsor]

Flynmonkie,

The conservative Southern Baptist Convention recently added this statement to "The Baptist Faith and Message":
XVIII. The Family (http://www.sbc.net/bfm/bfm2000.asp#xviii)

God has ordained the family as the foundational institution of human society. It is composed of persons related to one another by marriage, blood, or adoption.

Marriage is the uniting of one man and one woman in covenant commitment for a lifetime. It is God's unique gift to reveal the union between Christ and His church and to provide for the man and the woman in marriage the framework for intimate companionship, the channel of sexual expression according to biblical standards, and the means for procreation of the human race.

The husband and wife are of equal worth before God, since both are created in God's image. The marriage relationship models the way God relates to His people. A husband is to love his wife as Christ loved the church. He has the God-given responsibility to provide for, to protect, and to lead his family. A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.

Children, from the moment of conception, are a blessing and heritage from the Lord. Parents are to demonstrate to their children God's pattern for marriage. Parents are to teach their children spiritual and moral values and to lead them, through consistent lifestyle example and loving discipline, to make choices based on biblical truth. Children are to honor and obey their parents.

Genesis 1:26-28; 2:15-25; 3:1-20; Exodus 20:12; Deuteronomy 6:4-9; Joshua 24:15; 1 Samuel 1:26-28; Psalms 51:5; 78:1-8; 127; 128; 139:13-16; Proverbs 1:8; 5:15-20; 6:20-22; 12:4; 13:24; 14:1; 17:6; 18:22; 22:6,15; 23:13-14; 24:3; 29:15,17; 31:10-31; Ecclesiastes 4:9-12; 9:9; Malachi 2:14-16; Matthew 5:31-32; 18:2-5; 19:3-9; Mark 10:6-12; Romans 1:18-32; 1 Corinthians 7:1-16; Ephesians 5:21-33; 6:1-4; Colossians 3:18-21; 1 Timothy 5:8,14; 2 Timothy 1:3-5; Titus 2:3-5; Hebrews 13:4; 1 Peter 3:1-7.

*******

Disclaimer: Please note that SBC members are not bound to fully accept the Baptist Faith and Message, many Southern Baptists that I know do not accept the above statement on the family. As I stated above, the Soutehrn Baptist Convention is very conservative.

Diane
:)

[Nova Scotian Boy]

I was curiouse, and so at Youth Group i asked the Minister about this, and to find Out The Atlantic Convention of Baptist Churchs (Whitch is the one i my area) also ordains women.

[bleechers]

Each SBC church is autnomous from the others, so it's up to each local church in my denomination. I have been to SBC churches that have ordained women pastors, and others who do not.

Diane
:wave:

I'm pretty sure that if a church is part of the convention that it cannot ordain women. There are a number of doctrines and practices that are up to the local church, but certain things are required to stay in the convention.

[constance]

I believe the American Baptist denomination ordains women.
Yes. They do. (I grew up ABC and consider myself a lifetime member)

The Disciples of Christ (Christian Church) don't call themselves Baptists but they are by origin, doctrine and practice (they almost merged with the American Baptists in the 1930's) - they ordain women too.

Constance

[Diane_Windsor]

I'm pretty sure that if a church is part of the convention that it cannot ordain women. There are a number of doctrines and practices that are up to the local church, but certain things are required to stay in the convention.

I am pretty certain that women's ordination is left up to local SBC churches. Do you have any SBC sources to say that it does not?

Diane
:wave:

[bleechers]

I am pretty certain that women's ordination is left up to local SBC churches. Do you have any SBC sources to say that it does not?

Diane
:wave:

Women in Ministry
Women participate equally with men in the priesthood of all believers. Their role is crucial, their wisdom, grace and commitment exemplary. Women are an integral part of our Southern Baptist boards, faculties, mission teams, writer pools, and professional staffs. We affirm and celebrate their Great Commission impact.

While Scripture teaches that a woman's role is not identical to that of men in every respect, and that pastoral leadership is assigned to men, it also teaches that women are equal in value to men.

Source: sbc.net

[angela 2]

The American Baptist Churches have more that 1,400,000 members.

This is their statement about women and ministry

What do American Baptists believe about ministry

All persons are created in the image of God (Gen 1:27)
Every person who confesses faith in Jesus Christ is called to discipleship and ministry (1Cor 12:12-13)
God gives every Christian gifts for ministry (1 Cor 12; 1Cor 14:26; Rom 12:1-8; Eph 4:11-16; 1 Pet 4:10-11; Acts 2:14-21)
God calls the church to the ministry of reconciliation through Christ, by whom we are a new creation (2 Cor 5:16-21)
The ministry of word and reconciliation belongs to all persons regardless of gender (Gal 3:26-29)
God's spirit empowers all of God's people for prophetic ministry. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17)
abwim.org

[Flynmonkie]

The American Baptist Churches have more that 1,400,000 members.




http://www.abwim.org/information.asp

Who are American Baptist Women In Ministry?

We are women who have answered God’s call to ministry, serving in local churches and in other ministry settings.
You may know us as:

Ordained, Licensed, and Lay Pastors
Area, Region, and National Staff
Educators
Pastoral Counselors
Evangelists
Chaplains
Camp Staff
Missionaries
Musicians
Professors
Administrators

Is this an all women church? Or is this a division of American Baptist?

[angela 2]

I think the assumption that the abwim statement makes is a valid one. We know Paul's letters were read to entire congregations. Since the passages cited do not distinguish between men's and women's ministery, we should not either.

[angela 2]

Is this an all women church? Or is this a division of American Baptist?
American Baptist Women in Ministry is just that. Itis a group of women ministers in the ABC who choose to meet together regularly. The ABC makes no distinction between women and men ministers.

[angela 2]

I've been to some of the area abwin meeting. I'm always impressed by the group in general, and I always meet at least one new women whom I find amazing.

[Diane_Windsor]

Women in Ministry
Women participate equally with men in the priesthood of all believers. Their role is crucial, their wisdom, grace and commitment exemplary. Women are an integral part of our Southern Baptist boards, faculties, mission teams, writer pools, and professional staffs. We affirm and celebrate their Great Commission impact.

While Scripture teaches that a woman's role is not identical to that of men in every respect, and that pastoral leadership is assigned to men, it also teaches that women are equal in value to men.

Source: sbc.net

Your original statement:

I'm pretty sure that if a church is part of the convention that it cannot ordain women. There are a number of doctrines and practices that are up to the local church, but certain things are required to stay in the convention.

Your quote from the SBC site does not state anything about not ordinating woman as a requirement to remain in the SBC membership.

Can you find anything else? I checked the SBC site myself, but couldn't find anything about SBC membership requirements.

Diane
:)

[bleechers]

Your original statement:

I'm pretty sure that if a church is part of the convention that it cannot ordain women. There are a number of doctrines and practices that are up to the local church, but certain things are required to stay in the convention.

Your quote from the SBC site does not state anything about not ordinating woman as a requirement to remain in the SBC membership.

Can you find anything else? I checked the SBC site myself, but couldn't find anything about SBC membership requirements.

Diane
:)

Diane, go ahead and ordain a woman in an SBC Church... are you familiar with light speed? ;) That is how quickly that church will be asked to leave the SBC. The statement at the site is a polite way of stating it.

The SBC is also made up of state conventions. Some may word it more strongly, but that is what is meant. Believe me, I work at an SBC college. We do not train women for the pastorate and if we did, we would lose our SBC funding and identity.

[Flynmonkie]

Diane, go ahead and ordain a woman in an SBC Church... are you familiar with light speed? ;) That is how quickly that church will be asked to leave the SBC. The statement at the site is a polite way of stating it.

The SBC is also made up of state conventions. Some may word it more strongly, but that is what is meant. Believe me, I work at an SBC college. We do not train women for the pastorate and if we did, we would lose our SBC funding and identity.
Diane, Does the SBC have scriptural reasoning posted behind this ordinance? Something I might read?

[bleechers]

Diane, Does the SBC have scriptural reasoning posted behind this ordinance? Something I might read?

That was my post, so I'll assume you are asking me...

I thing Paul is extremely clear on the role of women. They are not to be elders in the church. Can a woman teach unbelievers? Sure. But in the church, men are to be the teachers and elders.

Now women, like all Christians, are held responsible for checking out their teachers against the Word of God and they have a right to rebuke error; but in church order they are not to teach men.

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

[Flynmonkie]

That was my post, so I'll assume you are asking me...


EEK! :doh: Sorry to you two...I am trying to keep up in another thread too...

No offense, I would like to see the scripture that this decision is based on with the SBC as that I am a member and I had been aware this was not allowed. At this point I am investigating this for myself.

[bleechers]

EEK! :doh: Sorry to you two...I am trying to keep up in another thread too...

No offense, I would like to see the scripture that this decision is based on with the SBC as that I am a member and I had been aware this was not allowed. At this point I am investigating this for myself.

It's not allowed based on the scripture I quoted (among others):

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."

[Flynmonkie]

It's not allowed based on the scripture I quoted (among others):

"Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence."
Well that scripture is effectively being refuted....You can check out the other thread I Corinthians 14:34 although I did not want to get off in a leadership tangent in there....it seems to be moving in that direction. But as I study further...these verses seem to not only be taken out of context, but are actually contradictory in nature. I have posted some scripture in support... But I am still studying. :prayer:

[bleechers]

Well that scripture is effectively being refuted

"Effectively" is subjective. ;)

[Diane_Windsor]

Diane, go ahead and ordain a woman in an SBC Church... are you familiar with light speed? ;) That is how quickly that church will be asked to leave the SBC. The statement at the site is a polite way of stating it.

Again, I don't see the statement as dealing with SBC membership. My understanding is that the SBC will not kick out a church from being a member for ordaining a woman.

ETA: you would think that the SBC would have a definitive answer to this question, but I have yet to find it. Therefore, I went ahead and emailed Prestonwood Baptist Church (http://www.prestonwood.org/sites/document.asp?did=1042), pastored by Dr. Jack Graham (http://www.prestonwood.org/sites/document.asp?did=1129), and the SBC itself. Hopefully, we'll have a reply in the next few days.

From the British Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,4028723-103681,00.html) newspaper:


"The statement of belief reads: 'While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by scripture.'

While it opposes the future ordination of women, the 1,600 or so current Southern Baptist clergywomen, about 100 of whom are pastors leading congregations, would not lose their credentials. The statement is not binding on individual Southern Baptists, and the 41,000 local congregations would remain free to ordain women. But the statement could affect the denomination's hiring decisions."

The SBC is also made up of state conventions. Some may word it more strongly, but that is what is meant. Believe me, I work at an SBC college. We do not train women for the pastorate and if we did, we would lose our SBC funding and identity.

The SBC seminaries (Southeastern, Southwestern, etc.) are tightly controlled by the conservative SBC leadership, so I don't doubt that they would lose their funding, etc. However, SBC preachers come from a variety of seminaries-not just the SBC ones. The seminaries are a lot different from individual member churches. Again, my understanding is different from yours.

Diane
:)

[Flynmonkie]

I didn't ask your opinion, however you gave it. I simply said I am studying this topic as that the topic of 1 Cor 14 women be silent has led into it. There is overwhelming scripture that this is not directed at women, but the woman of the time. Paul’s response to question and comment directed from blatant unruliness in this church. In addition it seems as if somehow man being head of household has converted to woman being subject to ALL men. This clearly contradicts scripture. Woman is to be subject to God, then her husband. In addition, the scripture of woman being silent (v34) followed by (v35) let them ask their husbands at home. Would mean married women...so what about the single ones? They can speak? It did not say ask your fathers - whom would be their head? I have posted many findings over in that thread and I don't wish to derail this one. But I assure you it is not subjectivly being refuted, it is clear overwhelming contradictory scripture that somehow is twisted by one little verse.

[angela 2]

Diane,

In the ABC, a church can ordain anyone it likes as its pastor, but, while the denomination will recognize that person as ordained for that church, the denomination will not recommend them or recognize their ordination if they choose to change churches. This is because the person has not been passed for ordination by the denomination.

So, if this policy is the same in the SBC, there could be women pastors.

[JimfromOhio]

I posted this in another thread similar to this topic.

I don't know what to say about the role of a Christian woman. All I know is what the Bible say about the topic. This is what I know. Women excel in gifts of hospitality, mercy, teaching and helping others. Women in the church are not restricted to public praying (1 Corinthians 11:5). The Bible nowhere restricts women from exercising the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians chapter 12). Women, just as much as men, are called to minister to others, to demonstrate the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23), and to proclaim the Gospel to the lost (Matthew 29:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Peter 3:15).

The only area I can see that is an issue is: Women having spiritual teaching authority over men. Many denominations have faced this issue. Some denominations have changed their policies to let women have spiritual leadership over men within a local church and others have not.

I am saying that men are NOT better teachers, or because women are inferior or less intelligent. From the scriptures and what most denomination believes, is simply the way God designed the church to function. Men are to set the example in spiritual leadership – in their lives and through their words. Understanding that the church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, "And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the Church (body of believers), the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Later in Ephesians 5:25-33, a husband loves his wife as Christ loves the church, then submission is a natural response from a wife to her husband. As a church (believers), we submit to God, our Creator and our Saviour.

[bleechers]

All references to the appointing of elders in the present church are to the appointing of men. Jesus also chose 12 men to rule and reign from 12 thrones some future day.

For God's purposes He has differently gifted men and women and He uses both to great ends. As a matter of function and order, however, He clearly delineates roles.

[angela 2]

All references to the appointing of elders in the present church are to the appointing of men. Jesus also chose 12 men to rule and reign from 12 thrones some future day.

For God's purposes He has differently gifted men and women and He uses both to great ends. As a matter of function and order, however, He clearly delineates roles.
That's nonsense.

I'll quote once more that paragraph from the ABC.

What do American Baptists believe about ministry

All persons are created in the image of God (Gen 1:27)
Every person who confesses faith in Jesus Christ is called to discipleship and ministry (1Cor 12:12-13)
God gives every Christian gifts for ministry (1 Cor 12; 1Cor 14:26; Rom 12:1-8; Eph 4:11-16; 1 Pet 4:10-11; Acts 2:14-21)
God calls the church to the ministry of reconciliation through Christ, by whom we are a new creation (2 Cor 5:16-21)
The ministry of word and reconciliation belongs to all persons regardless of gender (Gal 3:26-29)
God's spirit empowers all of God's people for prophetic ministry. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17)
abwim.org

You are assuming that the passages cited here concerning ministry apply only to men or apply to men and women differently. But that is something you are reading into scripture. These passages do not say that.

Unless we are to assume the bible contradicts itself, the passages restricting women must be assumed to be limited to the context for which they were written.

[bleechers]

That's nonsense.

I'll quote once more that paragraph from the ABC.

What do American Baptists believe about ministry

All persons are created in the image of God (Gen 1:27)
Every person who confesses faith in Jesus Christ is called to discipleship and ministry (1Cor 12:12-13)
God gives every Christian gifts for ministry (1 Cor 12; 1Cor 14:26; Rom 12:1-8; Eph 4:11-16; 1 Pet 4:10-11; Acts 2:14-21)
God calls the church to the ministry of reconciliation through Christ, by whom we are a new creation (2 Cor 5:16-21)
The ministry of word and reconciliation belongs to all persons regardless of gender (Gal 3:26-29)
God's spirit empowers all of God's people for prophetic ministry. (Joel 2:28; Acts 2:17)
abwim.org

You are assuming that the passages cited here concerning ministry apply only to men or apply to men and women differently. But that is something you are reading into scripture. These passages do not say that.



Of course they "say that." Paul leaves instructions for appointing elders and when he refers to elders, they are always men. In fact, the requirements for being an elder could apply to no one else than men.

A. NOT all persons are created in the image of God. Only Adam (and Eve by extension) were created in the image of God. We are created in the image and after the likeness of Adam (Gen 5).

B. Discipleship and ministry do not mean that women should be elders. That is not a necessary extension. Since Paul wrote 1 Corinthians long before he wrote Titus or 1 & 2 Timothy, why would he restrict the role of elder long after her declared otherwise?

C. As to gifts, how does that teach that women can be elders? I do not see the connection. Anyway, I don't believe those gifts are to us, but even if we accept that they are, how does having a spiritual gift nullify Paul's instruction in Timithy and Titus?

D. The ministry of reconciliation has ZERO to do with the office of an elder. A child in Christ is called to the ministry of reconciliation. Would you argue that a child should be an elder? Since ALL of us have that ministry, are we ALL elders?

E. What does "prophetic ministry" have to do with the office of an elder? Do you really believe that the gifts in the Acts are here today? Raise anybody from the dead lately? Are people being healed by your shadow? Are you a snake-handler or a poison-drinker?



Unless we are to assume the bible contradicts itself, the passages restricting women must be assumed to be limited to the context for which they were written.

No the Bible does not contadict itself, but Paul is clearly speaking to the church in which we function. What other instructions does Paul give that you would toss out?

It is the ABC that is twisting the scripture. They have taken CLEAR instructions from Paul (from the end of his ministry) and tried to say that he didn't mean EXACTLY what he said and based that on things Paul already taught. It is not Paul who is contradicting himself, it is the ABC that are twisting his words as Peter warned us some would.

And again, why did Jesus choose 12 men to sit on 12 future thrones? Why did the apostles only consider men to succeed Judas for one of those thrones?

[Stinker]

A woman is not scripturally allowed to Pastor a local church (1Tim.3:1-7), but she is not scripturally prevented from becoming an Evangelist because there is no local office in the New Testament for this work, nor is this occupation reserved for members of only one sex. (Eph.4:11)

The restrictions directed to the women of the 1st century church were commanded because of the woman's leadership role within the pagan religions of that time. These newly converted women were bringing with them this mindset and were ursurping the leadership within the congregations because they were always the leaders in their old religion.

[angela 2]

A. NOT all persons are created in the image of God. Only Adam (and Eve by extension) were created in the image of God. We are created in the image and after the likeness of Adam (Gen 5).

People who believe this are too far over the edge for me.

You contaminate everything else you wrote by this misogynist statement.

[bleechers]

People who believe this are too far over the edge for me.

You contaminate everything else you wrote by this misogynist statement.

You ignore the doctrines of scripture because you WANT to see misogyny in my statement? Of course Eve was created in the image of God "by extension" because God created Adam first. She was taken from his side while he was still undefiled.

Is God a mysoginist for stating that he "created him" before saying "created he them"?

How is my statment misogynist? I would say you are too blinded by rebellion to see. You refuse to see what Paul CLEARLY teaches and are willing to accept nuanced interpretations of the gifts to suggest that Paul was an idiot who had no idea what he was clearly teaching Titus and Timothy.


BEFORE MAN WAS DEFILED:

Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Luke 3:38 ...which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was a direct creation of God and therefore a "son of God." We are not "sons of God," rather we have to BECOME the sons of God by faith (Jn 1:12) by becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor 5:17).


AFTER MAN WAS DEFILED BY SIN:

Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth...

We were in Adam when he sinned. We have the nature of the fallen man. That is why we must be reborn in Christ. We are not created in the image of God. Like Seth, we are "begat" (not created) in the image of Adam.