Need Clarification!!!! On the Virgin Mary

[lionroar0]

I'm also a member of another christian forum. In which there is only one Orthodox person. His name is Celt.

This is what he is posting. In regards to the Virgin Mary.

Or shall I take in account even my own Easter tradition that wants her an "everlasting virgin"....crazy! Mary was not only the mother of Jesus but also the wife of Joseph. She had to stand by him and fulfill all her duties both as mother and wife.....unless of course we believe that Joseph had to get satisfaction in other ways or he was not able to fulfill his duties.

The myth of the "everlasting virgin" is a also a pure blasphemy because it stands against EVERYTHING God has designed for a family. No post Apostolic father ever called her like that. Actually, no one ever mentioned her. Mary "lost" her virginity during the birth of Jesus. After that, she could stay devoted to her family and her Son. That was and that still is the real mission of a highly favoured woman!



Indeed Ryan, it is true that the "official line" and many later fathers thought she remained a Virgin. As I said, even within my own tradition there are some crazy things.

When I was ordained, I did not take any vow to uphold the establishment or its fantasies but to serve the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Christ in purity and truth. This truth is well expressed in the Scriptures and the Creeds of the Church. That is the only obligation all Christians have in matters of Orthodoxy. This what the Apostolic Church taught.

Let them call the "contrary doctrine" in any way they like, I dont give a cent for gnostic "values". The problem is for them to prove their claims but they simply cant.

Yes, maybe I am mad or condemned as "heretic" according to some but as I said, its ok....I will appeal to the Lord's court.


Truefreedom, actually I am not condemned even by my Church because there is no doctrine or obligation to believe that Mary was forever Virgin. In Eastern Orthodoxy, if something is not proclaimed as doctrine by the seven Ecumenical councils then its not such at all, but just an opinion. There is no Patriarch, Bishop or theologian to find canonical ground in order to condemn me or anyone else just because we do not accept an opinion.

Its in the liturgical tradition of my Church that the word "ever-virgin" is found but all scholars know this was added after the 8th century. The pietism and contribution of the Fathers was indeed great, but it doesnt mean their opinions are fully inspired or free of error.

Also, if Mary's hymen was not broken during childbirth, then she would have no possibilities to survive. She would be dead. Its impossible for a healthy baby to pass through and keep the hymen untouched without risking his mom's life. Even today, when some doctors use artificial methods in order to help a lady having a baby, the problem is not how we put things in....she can very well be a virgin. The problem is how we get the baby out so thats why we have to brake the hymen if its not already broken. Rare case of course but not strange, it has happened.

Shall I suggest a new doctrine: "The miraculous elastic hymen of our Lady" All we need is a person who saw it in a vision and there we go: feast day, April 1st.

Lets get serious now. Wouldnt it be better if we get some real information about Mary instead of repeating what others have said....wouldnt it better for those fathers to prove their views instead of just condemning those who dont agree? Anyway, as you know, condemnation belongs to Devil but who needs him when we can do the job better....right?


This is the thread on that other forum.

http://www.praize.com/cgi-bin/members/cforums.cgi?forumid=10177315385137&postid=0&action=messages&threadid=9990195618485&start=100&

ANd If I did that wrong. It's www.praize.com (http://www.praize.com): forums, apologetics, Christian debates. The title of the thread is "General discussion from MAry Thread"

The EOC does teach that Mary only had Jesus and that she was a ever-virging right????

Is he going off in a different direction then what the EOC teaches or Am I just not undertstanding him?

Peace

[Marjorie]

NO NO NO!!!

"Remembering our most Holy, most Pure, most Blessed and Glorious Lady Theotokos, and Ever-Virgin Mary..."

says our Liturgy every Sunday!

This is anti-Orthodox, revisionist Orthodox... heresy.

Something doesn't have to be proclaimed by a Council to be an obvious part of Orthodox Tradition. It's stated so many times in our hymns and has been taught by so many of the Fathers that it is clearly non-negotiable. If something is part of the clear Christian consensus, "what has been believed everywhere, always and by all" (St. Vincent of Lerins), THAT is the rule of faith.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[sin_vladimirov]

Lionroar0, can you ask brother CELT to pray and fast like he never done it before, because if that oppinion of his is really his and if he considers it to be Orthodoxy, then he is very very mistaken.

:crosseo:

[lionroar0]

Thank you very much for the clarification that I have received. I also have another question. Are there churhes or groups that claim to be Orthodox but are not? I'm just wondering if Celt belongs to one of those groups

Peace

[Marjorie]

It's entirely possible. There are groups that are schismatic, and also ones who just use the name "Orthodox" but actually are just Protestants with funny hats and incense (to paraphrase a comment Anonykat made in another thread.) There are also (like in the Catholic Church) people who are part of the actual Church but do not teach the doctrines of the actual Church (like Catholics who say that the Eucharist is just a symbol, or think that women should be ordained, and so on.) If you ask him what jurisdiction he is we can tell you if it's legitimate.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

Hi Marjorie

This is what he responded when I asked him.


Antiochean Orthodox Church Jon, Patriarchate of Antiochea


He lives in Japan, Tokyo. According to his profile

[Marjorie]

The Antiochian (not Antiochean) Church exists... but I don't know what he means by "Jon"... I thought maybe he meant the name of the Patriarch, but then remembered that the current Patriarch of Antioch is Ignatius IV. *shrugs*

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Maybe Bishop Jon, not that I know whether there is one. Anyways, I think the guy is simply misinformed or dissenting or liberal or something, he's not accurately representing the Orthodox Tradition.

[gzt]

Actually, after reading all this, there may just be confusion as to what "ever-virgin" entails.

[Marjorie]

Also, he said in his profile that he founded the International Celtic Community of St. Patrick, which may or may not be this: http://altar.witnesstoday.org/home.htm

If so, he is NOT Orthodox at all.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

He was reponding to me when he answered. Sorry:sorry:

Lionroar0=Jon

Nice to meet you:D

Peace

[gzt]

Or he's just smoking crack.

[Marjorie]

Haha, oh, that explains it.

Nice to meet you too. :D

Seriously though, there are some Orthodox Christians, especially converts (I too am a convert so this is not a blanket statement) who come to Orthodoxy thinking they can "fix" it, that they know better than silly Orthodoxy with all its superstitions and are going to bring it into the modern world/the rest of the world/whatever. It's a completely anti-Orthodox mindset. On the other side there are those who come to Orthodoxy and then create a romanticized version of Orthodoxy where all Orthodox people are perfect and we all must wear headscarves and fast perfectly or we're heretics. And so on.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[sin_vladimirov]

Or he's just smoking crack.


^_^

[Marjorie]

WHOA.

Turns out he's not Orthodox. The guy described in here is the same guy as the one posting according to the information in the profile. He's also not part of the Patriarchate of Antioch so I don't know why he said that:

http://altar.witnesstoday.org/valid.htm

The Most Rt. Rev. Spyridon Christopher Chaskos was born in Athens, Greece, in August 10, 1968. He is the founder of the Ancient Orthodox Communion together with the International Celtic Order of St. Patrick...

He was first licensed to preach the gospel in 2002 by Bishop Kevin Hale of the Apostolic Life Ministries and later was ordained a Priest by Mar + Maximilian Anthony of The Coptic Orthodox Catholic Church. On November 2004, he was consecrated in the Order of Bishop by the Mt. Rt. Revd. Horst-Karl Friedrich Block.

To Japan he came in 2000. The Communion was founded to be a "school of life" and a place where fellow Christians of all denominations can come and work together. Brother Spyridon serves as Abbot General and Missionary Head of the Community.

Apostolic Life Ministries is clearly not Orthodox, and it turns out he was consecrated "bishop" by a "bishop" of the "International Free Protestant Episcopal Church": http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch26445 (http://netministries.org/see/churches/ch26445)

And don't be fooled, the "bishop" who ordained him a priest is also part of a vagante group: http://www.ind-movement.org/people_g.html (he is under "Godsey")

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

The proper thing to ask is not what jurisdiction, but who his bishop is. And what he says about the Councils being the only doctrines is false on its face.

[moses916]

wowzers :eek: , thats pretty messed!

[lionroar0]

Does this mean that he is coptic? Or a protestant with a funny hat?

[gzt]

Protestant with a funny hat.

[Marjorie]

Does this mean that he is coptic? Or a protestant with a funny hat?

The "Coptic" church he was ordained in was NOT a non-Chalcedonian church. It was just an American Protestant funny hat church... I just found that bit of info and added it to the rest of my post (knowing that no Coptic Orthodox bishop would ordain a non-Orthodox person to be a priest!!!)

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

Wolf in sheeps clothing!!!!!!!!! disgusting.

[sin_vladimirov]

So...


ANYONE FOR POPCORN, POPCORN, HOT DOGS, POPCORN... CRACK?



"When I was ordained" :doh:

I think that the words of Psalmist as quoted by St. Paul in Romans (III,10-18.) should start like this:

THERE IS NOT ONE SANE,
THEY HAVE ALL GONE NUTTS...



Lord have mercy, only worse is coming, a lot worse.

[gzt]

Especially since when ORTHODOX are ordained, they promise to uphold what is in the service books as well, "ever-virgin" and all.

[Marjorie]

What puzzles me is why he would say he is of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Perhaps he was brought into the Antiochian Church after this was written! I certainly hope so! :crosseo:

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[sin_vladimirov]

What puzzles me is why he would say he is of the Patriarchate of Antioch. Perhaps he was brought into the Antiochian Church after this was written! I certainly hope so! :crosseo:

In IC XC,
Marjorie


I think he got confused... He said Antioch, but he meant Atlantis.^_^

[gzt]

In which case he'll be deposed when his bishop hears what he's saying.

[Marjorie]

Oh and just in case anyone is in doubt that the person I quoted is the poster, this is what is written in his profile, which matches up exactly with the information on the link that he gave:

About me: I am a Christian Minister and founder of the International Celtic Community of St. Patrick. I was born in Athens, Greece, but God brought me to Japan in order to materialize my vision. After I gave my heart to the Lord, back in 1991,I attended the Greek Bible Institute, The Birmingham Bible College, the University of Wales, and the King's College in London. I hold a Master degree in Theology and Philosophy of Religion and a PhD in Social, Genetic, and Developmental Psychiatry. I love making new friends from all around the world and share together the wonderful things our Lord has done!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

I think he got confused... He said Antioch, but he meant Atlantis.^_^

:D!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

I will ask him who his bishop is.

[Marjorie]

If he gives you the name of an Antiochian bishop, ask him if he has been brought into the Church since what was written on his website, when he was clearly a member of a vagante group.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

I hope he doesn't name a real bishop, because then it would be somebody's duty to inform him of what this man is saying about the Theotokos.

[Marjorie]

I hope he doesn't name a real bishop, because then it would be somebody's duty to inform him of what this man is saying about the Theotokos.

Does anyone know Japanese? :D Or we can get Moses to write the bishop a letter in Arabic!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Orthosdoxa]

Gads. I'd rather deal with a hateful super-fundy than someone who appears to be under self-delusion and portraying himself as something he's not...



(hmmmm....)

[sin_vladimirov]

Even if his bishop was Patriarch Paul of Serbia, and his father in law was Ecumenical Patriarch his uncle Fr. Gilquist and we were his best friends,

that what he says is a heresy.

Forgive me!
:crosseo:
Lord have mercy!

[Marjorie]

Even if his bishop was Patriarch Paul of Serbia, and his father in law was Ecumenical Patriarch his uncle Fr. Gilquist and we were his best friends,

that what he says is a heresy.

Forgive me!
:crosseo:
Lord have mercy!


:D Stefan, I love you!

Patriarch Pavle of Serbia = my hero

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

Well he just went off line. I will have to wait till tommorow to see who his bishop is.

Thank you all. After he posted things like he did. I knew there had to be something terribly wrong. I will get the name of his Bishop and posted here when I get.
I will ask him if he has converted after he wrote in his website

Again Thank you all and Blessings

Peace

[Marjorie]

No problem Jon! Don't be a stranger! :wave:

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

Hi Marjorie and et al

This is his answer.


I am the Bishop of the Eparchy in Japan and I am not under any Patriarch because in Orthodox Ecclesiology all Bishops are equaly same. Bishops share communion but have no canonical authority above other jurisdictions. This means that within my Jurisdiction in Japan, no Patriarch or Bishop can even use a Parish or conduct a liturgy without my permission.

The Patriarch of Antiochea is HH Ignatius IV, if thats what you ask.


I hope this information brings more light.

I really do not think that he is Orthodox. This is the begining of another one of his post


The True Church is Catholic and Orthodox by nature. I do not mean the RC or EO denominations here..


The Orthodox Church is not a denomination. Which makes me even more suspicious of him.

Peace

[Marjorie]

Um, he says he is not under any Patriarch but then mentions Patriarch +Ignatius IV (a legitimate Orthodox Patriarch.) And while all bishops are in a sense "the same" in ordination, you DO have to be under a Patriarch to be Orthodox! Make sure the other people on this board know that he is part of a vagante group, not part of actual Orthodoxy. You can copy & paste my post on this (post #15 on this thread) if you want.

He is clearly not the bishop of the eparchy in Japan, obviously.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

He also added this to his respone to my question.


The reason I selected this Patriarchate is because they allow freedom of expression and various liturgical styles. They also allow Priests and Bishops to marry and the best of all, they are very missionary minded, something rare for other Orthodox Churches.

[Marjorie]

Liking a Patriarchate and being *under* a Patriarch is a very different thing... I can't believe he said he was part of the Antiochian jurisdiction... that's like me saying that I am under the Dalai Lama because I like Tibetan Buddhism better than Mahayana/Theravada Buddhism...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Marjorie]

Also Jon (in reference to your post on the other board), the Church has many missionaries and missionary saints. It has less than it should have right now but part of that is the fact that this has been a century of Orthodoxy being oppressed, so there hasn't been a lot of room for organization of missions and so on.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Wow, this guy only gets more and more interesting. Yes, he smokes rocks.

[lionroar0]

Hi Marjorie

Thank you for reponce in refence to Orthodox Missions. I'm not going to take what Celt says abou The Orthodox Church Seriously. I have a better place to ask questions about the Orthodox Church

TAW!!!!!!!:)

Peace

[Marjorie]

Wow, this guy only gets more and more interesting. Yes, he smokes rocks.

gzt,

Every time you say someone is smoking crack/rocks, I giggle and clap; it's silly!

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[gzt]

Like, St. Nikolai of Japan, St. John of Shanghai, all the Alaskan saints, all the Chinese martyrs, consider that all of Siberia had to be evangelized [and Siberia ain't all the pleasant]. And just think of the rebirth of the Orthodox Church after the end of the Communist era... There's some very real evangelization done in the Orthodox Church, not enough and not enough recently, but we it all depends on opportunities. The only direction we could go was East and we did, but it wasn't well-populated. The Greeks and Arabs were under the thumb of the Ottomans and couldn't do a thing. Then came the communists....

[gzt]

Glad to be of service.

[JCrawf]

I had off and on been watching the PRaize thread. I had also known Celt for a couple years from that website. Until recently, this person had not spoken of such things as he has. In fact, the three of us Catholics have been quite surprised by what he has thus said.

Pax Vobiscum,

John

[Marjorie]

Looks like someone named "orthodoxmarina1987" made a post! Wonder who that could be! :D

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

Looks like someone named "orthodoxmarina1987" made a post! Wonder who that could be! :D

In IC XC,
Marjorie


ROLF!!!! This could get interesting!!!!.

[MariaRegina]

Celtic's claim that the Antiochians allow Bishops to marry is strange.

Hasn't it always been the case that a candidate to the Diaconate must be married first before Ordination to the Diaconate and Priesthood, unless that candidate desires to remain celibate?

True, there is a movement within the Antiochian Church advocating allowing married priests to be consecrated to the Bishropic as the Epistle to Timothy recommended but I don't think that this has been approved by the Patriarch.

[prodromos]

Well that didn't take long.

From his website:Announcement:

It seems that some fellow orthodox believers do not fully understand our Canonical background. Soon, our Community will scan and post all the documents available in order to make things clear.

I can't wait ...

[prodromos]

Good grief! His website links to Campus Crusade for Christ International.

[sin_vladimirov]

A truly sad man.

[prodromos]

Religious Groups That Use
'Orthodox' in Their Names But Are Not Canonical Eastern Orthodox Churches (http://a_g_green_jr.tripod.com/OtherOrthodox.html)

From the website:An interesting feature of churches of questionable canonical status is that their web sites go to great lengths to prove they have a legal pedigree and registered Apostolic bloodlines.Our friend Celt is no exception.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

*James Earl Jones voice*

Luke, I am your Bishop!

Forgive me...

[prodromos]

He is also listed here
http://www.sojo.net/index.cfm?action=get_connected.directory&mode=detail_name&directory_id=1505
as the minister for "The International Free Protestant Episcopal Church ( Evangelical Continuing Anglican )"

[prodromos]

I just read their FAQ page :eek:
I noticed that you are married. How can this be? I'm pretty sure this is referring to his bishopness

Celibacy was not required in the Church until the 13th century. Our bishops believe that to refuse the full sacerdotal ministry to a married individual is to act in a manner as to limit whom God may call to His service.

My spouse is not Orthodox may they receive Eucharist/Communion?

Yes. We believe that any person Baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is a member of the body of Christ (Church) and therefore may receive Communion.

[sin_vladimirov]

:mad: & :doh: & :sick:

[Irish Melkite]

As a long-time student of vagante "Catholic" and "Orthodox" groups, I have got to give you guys a lot of credit :thumbsup: . You have really done a tremendous job of tracking down these folks. Usually, when a thread like this starts on any of the fora at which I post, I have to painstakingly search through my files, ferret out the info, and explain these kind of people at great length. It is really, truly, rare to see people who aren't used to tracking and dealing with these groups come up, on their own, with the amount of info that you managed to retrieve. I am impressed.

Btw, the "Coptic" church that Mar Anthony heads operates out of a second floor apt in a none too exclusive neighborhood, where the phone is answered "hello" by a woman whom I imagine is Mother Lynn Boyce Shields, a/k/a "Boots" ;) (honest to God). As Boots is about the right age difference and Mar Anthony is surnamed "Shields", I suspect it's his Mom.

Marjorie, I would have repped every one of your posts, if it would have let me. I'm hiring you on the next time I set out to track down some new "Catholic" or "Orthodox" "church" that appears on the web :cool: .

And, for everyone's benefit, the site that John linked, hosted by Al Green (an Orthodox layman) is a great reference source on these supposed "Churches". The same is true of the "Independent Movement" site to which someone else linked (albeit the latter is run by an "independent" himself - Father Tony Begonja; Tony, a conservative compared to most of the folks in the "movement", has the redeeming quality that even he recognizes how ridiculous most of his counterparts are). There's a site similar to Al Green's, hosted by a Catholic layman named Terry Boyle, that focuses on "Catholic" wannabes - Outline of Episcopi Vagantes (http://www.tboyle.net/Catholicism/Outline.html).

Many years,

Neil

[Irish Melkite]

... there is a movement within the Antiochian Church advocating allowing married priests to be consecrated to the Bishropic as the Epistle to Timothy recommended but I don't think that this has been approved by the Patriarch.

Elizabeth,

No, it hasn't and is unlikely to be. A similar proposal in the GOA a few decades back met with a lot of opposition and quietly went away. Such proposals don't tend to fly well in the Old Country and are looked at somewhat askance as being "typical American" ideas.

Many years,

Neil

[Mary of Bethany]

I know something about this "Antiochian" group. I know someone who is (or was - I haven't seen him in several years) a "Bishop" in this group. He's a former Episcopalian/Charismatic Anglican who's always liked to do his own thing. I think they're based in Tennessee, and they, IIRC, claim to have originated in Syria - a sort of "rival" Antiochian church that they say has been around a long time, and "persecuted" by the canonical church. That's all I remember about it. I've tried to look up my friend and this group on the 'net, but there's not much about them.


Mary

[ExOrienteLux]

So this nutjob's the Bishop of Japan, huh? Someone really ought to let His Beatitude DANIEL, Archbishop of Tokyo and Metropolitan of All Japan know about this screwball.

No need to believe the Theotokos is Ever-Virgin.... What kind of Liturgy does this man celebrate?!

Ah, America. The only place where you can get a mitre and a Panagia by sending in the tops from ten Cracker Jack boxes with $10.95 shipping and handling...

-Philip.

[tizzidale]

Okay, this guy keeps harping on and on about the Ecumenical Councils being the arbiter of 'Orthodoxy'. The Fifth Ecumenical Council, in it's pronouncements against "The Three Chapters" states:
Additionally, we anathematize the heretical letter which Ibas is alleged to have written to Mari the Persian. This letter denies that God the Word was made incarnate of the ever virgin Mary, the holy mother of God, and that he was made man.

In its pronounced Anathemas, the council, in its second anathema states:

If anyone will not confess that the Word of God has two nativities, that which is before all ages from the Father, outside time and without a body, and secondly that nativity of these latter days when the Word of God came down from the heavens and was made flesh of holy and glorious Mary, mother of God and ever-virgin, and was born from her: let him be anathema.

In its sixth anathema:

If anyone declares that it can be only inexactly and not truly said that the holy and glorious ever-virgin Mary is the mother of God, or says that she is so only in some relative way, considering that she bore a mere man and that God the Word was not made into human flesh in her, holding rather that the nativity of a man from her was referred, as they say, to God the Word as he was with the man who came into being; if anyone misrepresents the holy synod of Chalcedon, alleging that it claimed that the virgin was the mother of God only according to that heretical understanding which the blasphemous Theodore put forward; or if anyone says that she is the mother of a man or the Christ-bearer, that is the mother of Christ, suggesting that Christ is not God; and does not formally confess that she is properly and truly the mother of God, because he who before all ages was born of the Father, God the Word, has been made into human flesh in these latter days and has been born to her, and it was in this religious understanding that the holy synod of Chalcedon formally stated its belief that she was the mother of God: let him be anathema.

In Pope Leo's letter to Flavian, which is included in the Fourth Ecumenical Council documents, he writes:

He was conceived from the holy Spirit inside the womb of the virgin mother. Her virginity was as untouched in giving him birth as it was in conceiving him.

[lionroar0]

Celt is a nut job!!! NOw he is going on how his church (notice the small "c"). IS Apostolic and how the Catholic Church said his church is apostolic.

This is his reponce to Marjorie when she confronted him.


How much you dont know about me Marina..... First of all, I was Ordained a Priest in the Coptic Orthodox Church and then concentrated as Bishop by the Most Rt.Rev.Block. Look again to my line of succession and call back after you prove that St. James, Augustine of Canterbury, and the Armenian Church have invalid, not ORTHODOX Apostolic Succession. Also, prove that the panel of Catholic scholars chaired by Yves Congar (Cardinal by John Paul II ) was wrong when they pronounced our line a "valid succession of orders". The panel found that the Apostolic Succession had been sustained!

Yes, I am in full Communion with that very traditional Anglican Church and proud of it. Didnt you read the "Agreements" section? Didnt you see that we are in Communion but not in Theological Agreement? I am also in full Communion with some other Independent Catholic and Orthodox Jurisdictions and still growing.

The essence of being canonical constitutes following the teachings of Jesus Christ:

(a) in the dogmatic proclamations of the Seven Oecumenical Councils;

(b) in a diocese or church body being in communion (whether formally or not) with all jurisdictions or branches which have remained faithful to the Orthodox Christian way of life in both teaching and practice;

(c) in the bishops having a legitimate Apostolic Succession and Tradition. This means that Apostolic succession is always rooted in Apostolic tradition, not a mere independent laying on of hands.

In all due respect, being part of a particular branch or Synod obviously does not make one canonical. This is especially crucial, as certain parts of Orthodoxy in modern times seem to have changed the Orthodox understanding of 'canonical' into a new version of papacy. Their definition of 'canonical' is focused on being recognized, for instance, by the Patriarch of Constantinople (as if he were some sort of Eastern pope), whereas there is no such rule in the entire Canon Law. They appear to have adopted the corrupted Ecclesiology of Roman Catholicism by making legitimacy or canonicity dependant upon recognition by a particular Patriarch or Pope. This "neo-papal" concept has no historical precedent in Holy Orthodoxy and contradicts centuries of Orthodox tradition back to the times of the Holy Apostles. It is as if by being in communion with a particular segment of Orthodoxy, whether Patriarchal or not, somehow would make one Orthodox.

Seeking worldly recognition in the eyes of men and a corrupted society by merely understanding the administrative, legal unity of the church instead of the true unity, which only can exist in the authentic Orthodox way of life, is spiritually detrimental, utterly false and not at all Orthodox. The forming of self-styled organizations in mutual recognition with the purpose of denouncing others as being not canonical or in proclaiming themselves as the only legitimate ones, constitutes the grave sin of "condemning one's brother and sister" (St. Ephraim).

What is our call in this situation? - In order to remain canonical, we cannot join in such unholy endeavors. Living the Orthodox way of life must be most important to us. Engaging in assaults on others is contrary to the holy faith and most sinful. Let us continue to live as true Orthodox Christians who obey the Gospel commands as we invite those "of good will" (Luke 2:14) to join us. Once the worldly-minded through the grace of God will understand what 'being canonical' really means - then the truth shall be revealed: Where faith, doctrine and practice prevail, there is Orthodoxy. Where faith, doctrine and practice are compromised, canonicity, catholicity and Orthodoxy are absent despite any claims of communion or sort of recognition that may exist through artificial means.

So schismatics huh? You hypocrites! Is the Orthodox Church a member of the ECC or not? Do you call your Protestant brothers "schismatics" there especially when they empty their pockets to give financial aid to Churches in the East that suffered after WWII and under Communism? Noooooooo...when it comes to money they are beloved brothers in Christ but when it comes to matters of faith they are schismatics. Isnt that great! The Roman Catholics at least hold an honest position in this issue.

You see, I do not regard "schismatics" those who simply disagree with me or are not of the same tradition. Actually, for the Fathers schismatics were those who didnt uphold the Orthodox faith. Can you accuse me of heresy and if yes on what Canonical ground? Be specific please, VERY SPECIFIC. As for the liturgy of St John Chrysostom ( who isnt his by the way ) I can spell it front and backwards in 3 languages dear.

In 2000, when I came to Japan, the Japan Orthodox Church did not wish to engage me in ministry because I couldnt speak Japanese...fair enough. Then, in 2003 I turned to the Church of Antiochia and they granted me the charter to represent them in Japan. Also, The Ancient Orthodox Communion and the International Celtic Order of St.Patrick are registered in Japan as a Greek Eastern Orthodox Jurisdiction based on the charter I was granted by the Church of Antiochea.

Anyhow, do you have an email account? What if I scan the charter and Ordination documents to see what is and what is not true. Please, do not judge someone you just met. Or wait....you are right! You opened my eyes now, I should have done it earlier. I will scan and post them in my website asap for all to see and then lets talk about it again. I will also post a reply from the blessed Archbishop Iakovos that not only proves my Canonical Orthodox ordination but also expreses his will to grand me membership in SCOBA if I ever decide to move in the States. I will keep my promise and post them all.

I am glad to see someome from the AOC here. Maybe you can solve the problem: A good friend of mine told me earlier that in your website you claim that the term "aeiparthenos" is an official Orthodox doctrine. So I ask you, WHEN and WHOM proclaimed in the Orthodox Church that Mary was ever Virgin and give me ONLY ONE LINE from the Orthodox Canon Law ( Pedalion ) that to be "canonical" is to submit to a Patriarch. I only need ONE LINE.

I didnt say I like the Patriarch of Antiochea. I never met him. What I said is that I came in touch with them because they have a possitive attitude. Never heard that the Patriarchate of Antiochea is in Communion with the Old-Catholic Church of the USA, the Anglican Rite Orthodox Church, other Independent Churches, and has granted autonomy and liturgical freedom to many Orthodox Jurisdictions worldwide?

Quote: "Seeing these things are so, being thus well-established, we rejoice over them as he that hath found great spoil, and press to our bosom with gladness the divine canons, holding fast to all the precepts of the same, complete and without change, whether they have been set forth by the holy trumpets of the Spirit, the renowned Apostles, or by the Six Ecumenical Councils, or by our holy Fathers. For all these, being illumined by the same Spirit, defined such things as were expedient"

Read carefully what you just quoted and see that I am right. I do not deny neither the contribution of the fathers, neither the ministry of the Spirit but I cry out for the things well established, that are complete and with no change. What I have to underline though is the above canon does not specify which fathers it means....because if we start quoting from them, the contradictions will have no end. Even worse, If the fathers meant here are the Apostolic ones, (and thats who this canon actually mean) then it admits that the faith was already complete and every other addition is in vain if not suspicious. Yes, indeed we rejoice in the fullness of the faith proclaimed by the Apostles and the Fathers but we do not alter it.

Can you now answer to my questions because everyone till now try to tell me what the Orthodox Church teaches but no one has ever tryed to answer my simple questions on the true role of Mary. Is that so difficult? This thread is about the role of Mary and not the Eastern Orthodox tradition, remember? If you wish to chat about the Orthodox tradition lets make a new thread.

PS. Even I was a Protestant, I wouldnt be afraid to admit it.

PS2. Is AOC under Metropolitan Hermas? Great, The Orthodox Church I mean is under God. Or does that make me a Protetstant again? hummmmmmmmm


BTW if anyone is interested. I'm starting a church. I'm going to call it the Catholic, Orthodox,Anglican church of everyone.lol

Peace

[Irish Melkite]

I know something about this "Antiochian" group. I know someone who is (or was - I haven't seen him in several years) a "Bishop" in this group. He's a former Episcopalian/Charismatic Anglican who's always liked to do his own thing. I think they're based in Tennessee, and they, IIRC, claim to have originated in Syria - a sort of "rival" Antiochian church that they say has been around a long time, and "persecuted" by the canonical church. That's all I remember about it. I've tried to look up my friend and this group on the 'net, but there's not much about them.

Mary,

You're probably thinking of the Antiochian Catholic Church in America (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/7951/acintro.html), headed by Victor Mar Michael Herron, its Metran or Metropolitan Archbishop. They operate out of Knoxville, TN, last I knew.

They don't have a Patriarch, but they were originally a part of the Catholic Apostolic Church of Antioch - Malabar Rite (http://www.churchofantioch.org/), which is neither Catholic nor Apostolic and neither has any connection to Antioch nor to the Malabarese. They do, however, have a Patriarch, His Sacred Beatitude Richard. A little insight into Richard's deep theological thinking can be gleaned from a favorite line of mine that appears in his official bio:

The church does not espouse any dogmatic teachings but allows freedom of interpretation and expression. This seemed to be the right place for Richard.

In heading this "Church", Richard is the successor of Her Beatitudiness (I made that up; I don't recollect that she ever styled herself in any particular manner) Meri Spruit - the Church's Matriarch-Emeritus. It was originally founded by Patriarch Herman Spruit, as a continuation of one begun by Bishop Lowell Wadle. Spruit is a legend among those in the ranks of vagante episcopi, as is Wadle, who can claim to have been influential in furthering the theosophical and kabbalistic worship service popularly known as the "Wadle Mass". If these are the Antiochians with whom he's affiliated, I'm certain Gundrey (Patriarch Richard) is thrilled to have added a bishop in Japan to his hodge-podge coterie of house churches and interdenominational/non-denominational "churches".

Many years,

Neil

[Rilian]

BTW if anyone is interested. I'm starting a church. I'm going to call it the Catholic, Orthodox,Anglican church of everyone.lol

Peace

I joined your church (spiritually, I didn't tell you yet, but that's okay) and I've already found your movement corrupt and misguided. I hereby initiate the first schism and pronounce myself leader of the Reformed Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican church of everyone.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I joined your church (spiritually, I didn't tell you yet, but that's okay) and I've already found your movement corrupt and misguided. I hereby initiate the first schism and pronounce myself leader of the Reformed Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican church of everyone.

As Bishop (I elected myself, right after I joined)... I hearby excommunicate you.... I issued you this piece of paper...

*Orthodoxyusa hands Rilian bull of excommunication, with a big red wax seal.*

[Rilian]

That's alright, I've found a new church (http://www.education-1.net/patriarchate.htm) to join.

[Irish Melkite]

I joined your church (spiritually, I didn't tell you yet, but that's okay) and I've already found your movement corrupt and misguided. I hereby initiate the first schism and pronounce myself leader of the Reformed Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican church of everyone.

A typical amateur attempt at schism, everyone knows that to be accorded real recognition in the shadow world of "independent Orthodoxy" or "independent Catholicism", one must always avoid use of the term "Reformed" - way too Calvinistic - and should incorporate a Middle Eastern or Slavic placename.

I, myself, have broken away from Rilian's church in protest over this protestantization and am incorporating, in Delaware, as The True Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Upper Slobbovia - Transylvanian Rite, with the title of His Blessedness Patriarch and Grand Metropolitan Uber-Bishop Neil. I'd post a photo, but human eyes can hardly look upon my grandeur.

Many years,

Neil

[OrthodoxyUSA]

That's alright, I've found a new church (http://www.education-1.net/patriarchate.htm) to join.

:doh:

[Irish Melkite]

That's alright, I've found a new church (http://www.education-1.net/patriarchate.htm) to join.

Ah, you have met Dr. Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice, another of my favorites.

[Suzannah]

*suzannah has to stop laughing before she says this:

please let's be charitable....


/mod hat off...

So back to back...what is this guy's church again?

Is it this one?
http://celticchristianity.org/

If so, ^_^

[lionroar0]

I'm the Bishop of all I survey. I can prove it to. I'm the one that poses the official seal wich stamps all of my official documents. And I made the pic big enough so that there are no misundertstandings about it. So there!!!!!

http://www.afunk.com/mammals/seals/pictures/006.jpg

[Rilian]

I, myself, have broken away from Rilian's church in protest over this protestantization and am incorporating, in Delaware, as The True Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Upper Slobbovia - Transylvanian Rite, with the title of His Blessedness Patriarch and Grand Metropolitan Uber-Bishop Neil. I'd post a photo, but human eyes can hardly look upon my grandeur.

I'm not surprised. I've always said there's two things Delaware is known for:

Religious dissent
Being really small
Poultry Farms
The Charcoal Pit (on Concord Pike in Wilmington, good burgers and shakes btw)
A place to cheaply incorporate
and lastly Religious dissent

Any converts from The True Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Upper Slobbovia to the Reformed Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican church of everyone ® are hereby notified that they will have to be:

re-baptized
chrisalmated (chrismation via slip n' slide)
subjected to taunting

They also need a $50 (non refundable) deposit fee.

Yours faithfully,

His Eminence, Mar Don Juan de Vasco de Gomez y Pena.
~ Not only a patriarch, I'm also a client. ~

[Suzannah]

^_^ ^_^ ^_^

[gzt]

You need to slip "Conquistador" in there

[Rilian]

Ah, you have met Dr. Chief Alexander Swift Eagle Justice, another of my favorites.

Yes, I pity the person who is missing a bedpost. A Bishop does need his pateritsa though.

I also really like the "I'm too sexy for my mitre" pose.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm the Bishop of all I survey. I can prove it to. I'm the one that poses the official seal wich stamps all of my official documents. And I made the pic big enough so that there are no misundertstandings about it. So there!!!!!

http://www.afunk.com/mammals/seals/pictures/006.jpg

That is NOT the official seal... I have seen him before... he works in a circus act...

The official seal is much larger and has bad breath.

[Irish Melkite]

what is this guy's church again?

Is it this one?
http://celticchristianity.org/



Susannah,

Nope. COCC is the domain of His Beatitude Abbot-Bishop Maelruain.

Many years,

Neil, wondering if Susannah wants to join his Transylvanian Rite Church?

[Suzannah]

Yes, I pity the person who is missing a bedpost. A Bishop does need his pateritsa though.

I also really like the "I'm too sexy for my mitre" pose. That picture was too much for me....it reminds me of....

London cabdriver on seeing St. John of Shanghai..."Now THAT'S a bishop!!!"

[OrthodoxyUSA]

You know.... I've heard it said that the road to hell is paved with Priests and the Bishops are used as lamp posts.

This guy is a lamp post somewhere on Main St.

Forgive me....

[Irish Melkite]

Yes, I pity the person who is missing a bedpost.

That's no bedpost - anyone who's ever been to Home Depot would recognize it as a drapery rod - and not a cheap one either!!!!

[Irish Melkite]

I'm not surprised. I've always said there's two things Delaware is known for:

1. Religious dissent
2. Being really small
3. Poultry Farms
4. The Charcoal Pit (on Concord Pike in Wilmington, good burgers and shakes btw)
5. A place to cheaply incorporate
6. and lastly Religious dissent


Hmmm, His Eminence can't count - can't let him handle the church finances :sigh:

[Rilian]

That's no bedpost - anyone who's ever been to Home Depot would recognize it as a drapery rod - and not a cheap one either!!!!

Now you can see what going the Reformed route did to me brother bishop. My knowledge of liturgics is abysmal. How can I lead the community in holy worship if I can't even tell a bedpost from a drapery rod?

Let me serve as a warning and example to all future and prospective schmismatic, vagante, independent, weirdo hierarchs.

[lionroar0]

HI Suzannah

Thank yo for the link to the celtic church. I'm in the procress of emailing them as to what they belive regarding Mary.

[OrthodoxyUSA]

HI Suzannah

Thank yo for the link to the celtic church. I'm in the procress of emailing them as to what they belive regarding Mary.

Your going to tell them what they believe?

That's just wild!

Be sure to post the email here....

Forgive me...:liturgy:

[lionroar0]

Hi Orthodoxy.

Heck no. I'm asking them to tell me what they belive in regards to Mary. I asked them if they belive that She was/is ever virgin.

I included Celt's post in my email as well as the thread and his web site.

Peace

[lionroar0]

This si the email I sent them.

Do Celtic Orthodox Church teach that the Virgin Mary was ever-virgin? I ask in regards to a poster in a forum that I have met who claims to be Celtic Orthodox and a Bishop.

This is what he posted:

"Even in those days it wouldnt show any respect to a Virgin if she was forced to marry an old man with at least 5 kids. When some traditionalists insist that she was highly favoured and then turn and say she had to become a wife of an old man they dont really understand the paradox. Is that what God wanted from His highly favoured one?

Or shall I take in account even my own Easter tradition that wants her an "everlasting virgin"....crazy! Mary was not only the mother of Jesus but also the wife of Joseph. She had to stand by him and fulfill all her duties both as mother and wife.....unless of course we believe that Joseph had to get satisfaction in other ways or he was not able to fulfill his duties.

The myth of the "everlasting virgin" is a also a pure blasphemy because it stands against EVERYTHING God has designed for a family. No post Apostolic father ever called her like that. Actually, no one ever mentioned her. Mary "lost" her virginity during the birth of Jesus. After that, she could stay devoted to her family and her Son. That was and that still is the real mission of a highly favoured woman!

The corrupted gnostic views of dualism between flesh and spirit, good or bad, purity or virginity, have no space in the Church of God.

As for anathematizing those who do not agree to private revelations, visions and false traditions its ok! The rest of us can appeal to Lord's court! "

If you have the time or the inlclination to look at his posts. This is the thread http://www.praize.com/cgi-bin/members/cforums.cgi?forumid=10177315385137&action=messages&threadid=9990195618485&start=70 (http://www.praize.com/cgi-bin/members/cforums.cgi?forumid=10177315385137&action=messages&threadid=9990195618485&start=70)&

Also this is his personal web site. http://altar.witnesstoday.org (http://altar.witnesstoday.org)

Any information that you can give me or direct me too is greatly appreciated.

Peace

[ExOrienteLux]

I, myself, have broken away from Rilian's church in protest over this protestantization and am incorporating, in Delaware, as The True Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Upper Slobbovia - Transylvanian Rite, with the title of His Blessedness Patriarch and Grand Metropolitan Uber-Bishop Neil. I'd post a photo, but human eyes can hardly look upon my grandeur.

Your Blessedness, I wish to join your jurisdiction as a refuge from World Orthodoxy, for the 'Orthodox Church' at large is still under the influence of the Communists, not to mention the Illuminati and the NWO.

Would Your Blessedness be willing to ordain me as His Eminence Philip, Archbishop of Northeastern Slobbovia and Mrzchvkstan, Exarch of Western Pennsylvania and All the Ohio Valley?

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Your Blessedness, I wish to join your jurisdiction as a refuge from World Orthodoxy, for the 'Orthodox Church' at large is still under the influence of the Communists, not to mention the Illuminati and the NWO.

Would Your Blessedness be willing to ordain me as His Eminence Philip, Archbishop of Northeastern Slobbovia and Mrzchvkstan, Exarch of Western Pennsylvania and All the Ohio Valley?

Hey! Get back in line!

http://home.comcast.net/~pasudduth/smiles/Bishop.gif

Forgive me...

[ExOrienteLux]

Why? You were ordained under the Bolsheviks! As such, your ordination is null and void!

Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!

[moses916]

haha Rilian, i think the guy in green was holding a curtain rod! ^_^

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Why? You were ordained under the Bolsheviks! As such, your ordination is null and void!

Anathema! Anathema! Anathema!

I'm like rubber and your like glue.... whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you!

I don't recognize your right to make such an announcment.

^_^

Forgive me....

[Kolya]

ROB! Please do your duty and close this thread.:cool:

It started off in good intention, but we're discussing our Blessed Theothokos!

We've made our point, it does't have to degenerate any further.

Kolya

[moses916]

good point Kolya! :)

[ExOrienteLux]

It started off in good intention, but we're discussing our Blessed Theotokos!

No, now we're discussing the vagaries of wacky Ortho-ducks groups.

How dare you presume to try to get a thread on topic!

You are hereby removed from any possibility of communion with The True Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Upper Slobbovia - Transylvanian Rite (TTAOCCUP - TR) and declared anathema by my authority as Metropolitan of Northeastern Slobbovia and Mrzchvkstan.

His Eminence Philip

(this is great fun, btw ^_^)

[Kolya]

No, now we're discussing the vagaries of wacky Ortho-ducks groups.

How dare you presume to try to get a thread on topic!

You are hereby removed from any possibility of communion with The True Apostolic Orthodox Catholic Church of Upper Slobbovia - Transylvanian Rite (TTAOCCUP - TR) and declared anathema by my authority as Metropolitan of Northeastern Slobbovia and Mrzchvkstan.

His Eminence Philip

(this is great fun, btw ^_^)

I Recant, YOUR EMINENCE!:bow:

[Rilian]

haha Rilian, i think the guy in green was holding a curtain rod! ^_^

Curtain rods are a modern innovation which I today anathematized. My baseline for establishing Orthodoxy is the use of the bedpost.

[moses916]

:d ^_^

[lionroar0]

HI All this is the answer to the email I sent.

May God Bless you and yours.

Thank you for showing me that post. I live in constant amazement at
what some people say.

The ancient Celtic Churches accepted the Third Ecumenical Council which
reemphasized that Mary is ever Virgin. This was because of several
movements that were about at the time: one was an attempt to overturn
the Prophesies of the Virgin Birth and reconcile the Community of the
New Covenant with that of the Old Covenant.

An example of this is found in Propers for the Feast of the Annunciation:

Dignum, Contestatio, or Immolacio

It is truly worthy and just O Almighty God Who hast taught us to serve
by wonders the Mystery and by the indescribable, the Sacraments through
Venerable Mary, in whom chastity remained intact, modesty unbroken,
conscience firm in that she knew she was the mother of her Lord, Jesus.
Wherefore more joy came to her who was made joyful because of her
burden: because the Virgin conceived: because she bore the Lord of
Heaven in the enclosed space of her vitals: because the Virgin bore a
Son. O Great Clemency of Deity, She who did not in truth change and was
a mother and after giving birth to a Son remained a Virgin. She was
gladdened by two things: she was gladdened by the gifts: she was
gladdened because, though a Virgin, she gave birth: she was gladdened
because she brought forth our redeemer and Lord Jesus Christ ...

Pax Christi
+Maelruain, Cele De


Peace

[Xpycoctomos]

Sorry, I couldn't read through all of the posts as it is already super long and I jsut got here to look at it so If I'm redundant, forgive me:

Does anyone ALSO find it wierd that this "Bishop" is just chillin' on the net?

I hope to NEVER run into my bishop online! wieeerd.

John

[StChristopherofPalestine]

Sorry, I couldn't read through all of the posts as it is already super long and I jsut got here to look at it so If I'm redundant, forgive me:

Does anyone ALSO find it wierd that this "Bishop" is just chillin' on the net?

I hope to NEVER run into my bishop online! wieeerd.

John

There's a Bishop with a LiveJournal or so I've heard.

[Marjorie]

There's a Bishop with a LiveJournal or so I've heard.

Yeah, Bishop Seraphim (he's one of my LJ friends!), but he is basically retired, so it's different.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Xpycoctomos]

I mean... I guess it doesn't need to be anathemized... but, it just seems to put the bishop on the "buddy" level. Especially if he puts himself in such a circumstance where he is debating with others. you know? There's just so much that is wierd about htat I am not even sure where to start.

[Xpycoctomos]

Yeah, Bishop Seraphim (he's one of my LJ friends!), but he is basically retired, so it's different.

In IC XC,
Marjorie


.... but what I do I know. lol

[Marjorie]

Bp. Seraphim basically writes long posts on subjects, educational posts... it's almost more like him writing a newsletter (and a very interesting one!) It's a far cry from debating on internet boards like this weirdo...

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[Irish Melkite]

While this thread has been more than a little amusing, I'd like to add a few more serious notes to the discussion.

John makes an excellent point regarding "bishops" on the net. There are a very few bishops from canonical Orthodox or Catholic jurisdictions who actually post on the net in any way, shape, or form, among them Kyr Seraphim, as Marjorie mentioned. Among that very few, there are almost none of whom I am aware who routinely post to forums.

Those few who post other than in a blog or journal type setting usually are members of e-groups - to which they tend to post sparingly and on rather mundane topics - and a few who post in Q&A settings. Both those venues have the advantage of being rather controlled settings in which the bishop is unlikely to find himself put on the spot, unless he chooses to let that happen. Bishops are human like the rest of us, but unguarded comments by them are seized upon by the masses and become fodder for perceptions about a bishop's holiness, intellect, orthodoxy, etc. - positive or negative; not a good situation in which to potentially leave oneself vulnerable.

Now, I am not going to suggest that there aren't hierarchs who carefully post under pseudonyms - because I have no doubt that there are. As well, I know that there are hierarchs who routinely lurk without registering and regularly read some websites to have insight into matters on the mind of their faithful. Particular sites of interest vary but for Eastern Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs, the ByzForum, OC.net, Monachos.net, Euphrosynos Cafe, Cath-East, and the Indiana List are among the popular ones (the specific choices depending on the bishop, his jurisdiction, and the ecclesio-political slant of a forum).

All of that said, vagante and "independent" hierarchs whom one encounters on-line are more than unlikely to be convinced of anything that the average poster points out to them as inconsistent with either Catholicism or Orthodoxy or both (and, if you have noticed, most such folks like to cover all bases by styling themselves or their "church" with both adjectives - catholic and orthodox). You are wasting your time in engaging in dialogue with one of these that ends up being two monologues - yours and his (or hers). When you discover these folks on forums such as praize, it's almost a certain bet that they belong to the vagante or "independent" movements, as interdenominational, anti-Catholic, or anti-Orthodox forums offer no real opportunity to dialogue, instead becoming places where rants substitute for true apologetics, meaningful discussion, charitable debate, or evangelization.

If you think you've encountered an Orthodox or Catholic "look-alike" and you believe that it's imperative to point out the errors of his/her ways, thinking, etc., lest the unwary be swayed - save yourself the time and effort. Almost no one at those types of sites is really there to be convinced (certainly not "for" Catholicism or Orthodoxy) and the worst of these "bishops" and their "clergy" are so bizarre, in practice, theology, or presentation that only the most gullible would succumb to their wiles - and you aren't going to change the minds of those who "want to believe", no matter how ludicrous the message. A greater risk are the small number who manage to come across as sincere and devout and who avoid photos in which they appear to be vested in your Great-Aunt Gertrude's sofa throw; they take themselves seriously and others may also. However, you are unlikely to find those latter posting - they rely more on the messages of their websites.

Finally, in charity, it needs to be acknowledged that some few of the "independent" "Catholic" and "Orthodox" actually believe themselves to be doing God's work and, in fact, lead viable communities of faithful - as opposed to those for whom the whole experience is "dress-up" in the basement rec room cum cathedral. Unquestionably, there are those who come into contact with them, accept their version of our Faiths, and go on with their lives the better for being churched, albeit uncanonically. For these pseudo-Catholics and pseudo-Orthodox, who indeed mean to lead proud, strong, meaningful spiritual existences and manage to do so on some level, we need to pray that they will come into communion with the Churches that they either seek to emulate or recognize as having some aspect of the True Faith, but can't seem to fully embrace for whatever reason.

I have focused on the "independent" and vagante Catholics and Orthodox, because they are the ones that we are most likely to encounter and recognize. You should be aware, however, that this phenomenon occurs in all of the so-called "Apostolic" or High Churches: Catholic, Latin, Eastern and Oriental; Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental; Anglican, particularly as a purported manifestation of Anglo-Catholicism; and High-Church Lutherans.

If you encounter any hierarch or Church that you cannot identify as canonical by viewing info on the website of the known Church with which he or she seems to be alleging affiliation, presume that it is not canonical. PM me or e-mail at irish_melkite@verizon.net and I can almost always verify the individual/institution status. I've studied these phenomena for most of 35 years and the players don't ever really go away - they just switch "Churches".

For an excellent piece on the characteristics of vagante ecclesia and episcopi, see the excellent cautionary message (http://www.geocities.com/philorthodox/caution.htm) on the website of an Orthodox parish in the Phillippines. I suggest everyone read it.

Many years,

Neil

[Servus Iesu]

I've been involved from the beginning in the 'debate' with Joseph. His perfidy is stunning. First he claimed that he was bound only by the Oecumenical councils. Now that an Orthodox Christian has pointed out that the Oecumenical Councils refer to Mary as Ever-Virgin he is obfuscating this fact in any way he can. He refuses to submit to the Councils and now he is busy trying to discredit their doctrinal statements by pointing out Conciliar disciplines that have changed (a real Bishop knows the difference so I refuse to even point it out to him). I am finished with him.

[sin_vladimirov]

I've been involved from the beginning in the 'debate' with Joseph. His perfidy is stunning. First he claimed that he was bound only by the Oecumenical councils. Now that an Orthodox Christian has pointed out that the Oecumenical Councils refer to Mary as Ever-Virgin he is obfuscating this fact in any way he can. He refuses to submit to the Councils and now he is busy trying to discredit their doctrinal statements by pointing out Conciliar disciplines that have changed (a real Bishop knows the difference so I refuse to even point it out to him). I am finished with him.

Brother, that is a very wise thing to do.

In these times many people follow things that are not what they appear to be. Just think of all the cults that comit mass suicided and so on.

It is our own responsibility to learn as much as our brains can take about our faith. So that even if Angel from the sky comes and tells us something, we can compare it to the whole of our faith.

It is our duty, to know as much about God as we can. For we can not truly love one that we do not know.

[Xpycoctomos]

While this thread has been more than a little amusing, I'd like to add a few more serious notes to the discussion.

John makes an excellent point regarding "bishops" on the net. There are a very few bishops from canonical Orthodox or Catholic jurisdictions who actually post on the net in any way, shape, or form, among them Kyr Seraphim, as Marjorie mentioned. Among that very few, there are almost none of whom I am aware who routinely post to forums.

Those few who post other than in a blog or journal type setting usually are members of e-groups - to which they tend to post sparingly and on rather mundane topics - and a few who post in Q&A settings. Both those venues have the advantage of being rather controlled settings in which the bishop is unlikely to find himself put on the spot, unless he chooses to let that happen. Bishops are human like the rest of us, but unguarded comments by them are seized upon by the masses and become fodder for perceptions about a bishop's holiness, intellect, orthodoxy, etc. - positive or negative; not a good situation in which to potentially leave oneself vulnerable.

Now, I am not going to suggest that there aren't hierarchs who carefully post under pseudonyms - because I have no doubt that there are. As well, I know that there are hierarchs who routinely lurk without registering and regularly read some websites to have insight into matters on the mind of their faithful. Particular sites of interest vary but for Eastern Catholic and Orthodox hierarchs, the ByzForum, OC.net, Monachos.net, Euphrosynos Cafe, Cath-East, and the Indiana List are among the popular ones (the specific choices depending on the bishop, his jurisdiction, and the ecclesio-political slant of a forum).

All of that said, vagante and "independent" hierarchs whom one encounters on-line are more than unlikely to be convinced of anything that the average poster points out to them as inconsistent with either Catholicism or Orthodoxy or both (and, if you have noticed, most such folks like to cover all bases by styling themselves or their "church" with both adjectives - catholic and orthodox). You are wasting your time in engaging in dialogue with one of these that ends up being two monologues - yours and his (or hers). When you discover these folks on forums such as praize, it's almost a certain bet that they belong to the vagante or "independent" movements, as interdenominational, anti-Catholic, or anti-Orthodox forums offer no real opportunity to dialogue, instead becoming places where rants substitute for true apologetics, meaningful discussion, charitable debate, or evangelization.

If you think you've encountered an Orthodox or Catholic "look-alike" and you believe that it's imperative to point out the errors of his/her ways, thinking, etc., lest the unwary be swayed - save yourself the time and effort. Almost no one at those types of sites is really there to be convinced (certainly not "for" Catholicism or Orthodoxy) and the worst of these "bishops" and their "clergy" are so bizarre, in practice, theology, or presentation that only the most gullible would succumb to their wiles - and you aren't going to change the minds of those who "want to believe", no matter how ludicrous the message. A greater risk are the small number who manage to come across as sincere and devout and who avoid photos in which they appear to be vested in your Great-Aunt Gertrude's sofa throw; they take themselves seriously and others may also. However, you are unlikely to find those latter posting - they rely more on the messages of their websites.

Finally, in charity, it needs to be acknowledged that some few of the "independent" "Catholic" and "Orthodox" actually believe themselves to be doing God's work and, in fact, lead viable communities of faithful - as opposed to those for whom the whole experience is "dress-up" in the basement rec room cum cathedral. Unquestionably, there are those who come into contact with them, accept their version of our Faiths, and go on with their lives the better for being churched, albeit uncanonically. For these pseudo-Catholics and pseudo-Orthodox, who indeed mean to lead proud, strong, meaningful spiritual existences and manage to do so on some level, we need to pray that they will come into communion with the Churches that they either seek to emulate or recognize as having some aspect of the True Faith, but can't seem to fully embrace for whatever reason.

I have focused on the "independent" and vagante Catholics and Orthodox, because they are the ones that we are most likely to encounter and recognize. You should be aware, however, that this phenomenon occurs in all of the so-called "Apostolic" or High Churches: Catholic, Latin, Eastern and Oriental; Orthodox, Eastern and Oriental; Anglican, particularly as a purported manifestation of Anglo-Catholicism; and High-Church Lutherans.

If you encounter any hierarch or Church that you cannot identify as canonical by viewing info on the website of the known Church with which he or she seems to be alleging affiliation, presume that it is not canonical. PM me or e-mail at irish_melkite@verizon.net and I can almost always verify the individual/institution status. I've studied these phenomena for most of 35 years and the players don't ever really go away - they just switch "Churches".

For an excellent piece on the characteristics of vagante ecclesia and episcopi, see the excellent cautionary message (http://www.geocities.com/philorthodox/caution.htm) on the website of an Orthodox parish in the Phillippines. I suggest everyone read it.

Many years,

Neil
Thanks Irish Melkite. Words of wisdom.

[Marjorie]

Indeed. I will probably not go back there.

In IC XC,
Marjorie

[lionroar0]

I just wanted to thank everyone for their posts. :)

Peace

[Suzannah]

Thanks Irish Melkite. Words of wisdom.

Motion seconded!

:)

As a side note: There are phony "prophets" everywhere, including CF. It is doubly important, if a person is going to be "talking to strangers" on the 'net that they not only heed Irish Melkite's advice, but they ARM! Yes, TO ARMS!!! with....this (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/sim-explorer/explore-items/-/0913836524/0/101/1/none/purchase/ref%3Dpd%5Fsxp%5Fr0/102-8338983-8359352)

i can't even tell you how many odd balls there are out there, who claim to have had a "word" from God about me....God seems to talk about me an awful lot, to people I've never even met....

Anyway, all the kidding in this thread aside, the subject matter is extremely serious and I want to thank everyone for a really educational read.