About the tricks of the adversary

[StChristopherofPalestine]

My understanding is that the adversary can copy (mock, I guess) the miracles of God to fool people into pride or what-have-you. Could the enemy make it seem as though someone who is not a Saint of the Lord appear to be one? As in, incorrupt relics, seemingly answered intercession, etc? Is there a limit to what the adversary can do to fool us? We catechumens gotta make sure we know what to look out for.

[sin_vladimirov]

My understanding is that the adversary can copy (mock, I guess) the miracles of God to fool people into pride or what-have-you. Could the enemy make it seem as though someone who is not a Saint of the Lord appear to be one? As in, incorrupt relics, seemingly answered intercession, etc? Is there a limit to what the adversary can do to fool us? We catechumens gotta make sure we know what to look out for.

This might seem strange but,
the way I look at it, as a cathecumen, is I do not think of miracles and such things in any way as yet.
I think that for measuring of things a lot of life with Christ is needed, life that I do not have. Wisdom does come with age.
Thus I do not judge any miracle being in the Church or out of it.
Now this is not to say that many are true and many are false, but I just reserve my oppininon as yet.
I love hearing about them, I just do not use them for my life.
I am a starter and unbaptized, people like us were not allowed to stay in the Church after the prayer for the Cathecumens. I take this is a warrant to consider that some things are just not the infants milk food that I as a baby need to eat so my bones might get stronger, so I might stand up and start walking.
Once that happens I can start going and expiriencing world that is now hidden from me.

I for one, than pray to God to keep me from things that are good but not needed to me as yet, and those that are bad whom I could not handle.

in ICXC
stefan+

[VickiY]

Yes, the evil one can appear as a saint or an angel in visions, in order to lead us astray, which is why we are not to put our trust in visions and be ever seeking for miracles.

However, if the evil one tried to make someone LOOK like a saint (by making, say, a sinner's relics appear to cure) He would fail, ultimately, as when we venerate saints, we are NOT praying to them, NOR are we WORSHIPPING them. We may stand in all piety and humility before a reliquary with a false relic (of a non-saint) in it, and ask that through the intercessions of that supposed saint we be healed, if it is the Will of God to heal us at that time.

IF then we are healed by the evil one....we will be blissfully unaware of this, and go forth praising Christ! I cannot see what the evil one could gain by so doing, as we are praying to Christ to heal us, IF it is His Will, NOT looking for a magic charm...and even if we were healed but decieved, we would not know of it, and thus our minds and hearts would remain pure, and we would FURTHER glorify Christ...If anyone can explain what the devil gains in that, I'd be interested to hear it.

There are thousands of saints who God has not chosen to reveal to us yet...some newly reposed, some reposed for centuries. Put your trust in God, venerate the saints, by all means,but Worship ONLY the Trinity. That way, even if the evil one gets his own private giggle over the faithful kissing an icon of an unrepentent sinner he has tricked us into thinking is a saint, the reality is that doing so will not harm our souls, as we will be utterly ignorant that any such thing is happening.

Make sense?

[StChristopherofPalestine]

I just realized that my question wasn't specific enough. But it doesn't matter because this is something I need to talk to my priest about.

Thanks for the advice, though.

[moses916]

Defenses against the NDE delusion include prayer, a knowledge of Scripture and the Patristic writings on the afterlife, and a critical attitude toward alleged visions. For example, when a demon appeared to Saint Pachomius the Great in the form of Christ and said that Pachomius had pleased him greatly, the wise Saint was skeptical. Why would Christ, Pachomius reasoned, appear to such a poor sinner as he? This clearly could not be Christ, he decided. Pachomius made the sign of the cross and told the demon to depart. Such humility is notably absent from modern NDE accounts.

Also missing from today's NDE stories is the hard-headedness of Saint Niphon, whose skeptical attitude once sent an evil spirit packing. The demon appeared to the Saint in the form of a holy angel and said that Niphon would be granted the power of working miracles, as a reward from God. Niphon was not fooled. He recognized this vision as a deception and an appeal to his pride. "Wait a minute," he told the demon, "and I will perform a miracle for you." He addressed a nearby boulder and told it to move to another location. The rock stayed put. "So much for your gift," Saint Niphon said, and spat at the evil spirit. Then the Saint prayed to God, and the demon vanished.

taken from http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/death/nde.aspx

[Maximus]

I think a good rule of thumb is to judge the miracle and/or the supposed saint by the truth and not vice versa.

There are all sorts of alleged miracles and apparitions occurring in the world today. Some of them appear to be very "Christian."

But if they teach or promote falsehood, they are to be rejected.

When the Antichrist comes, he too will work wonders.

One must be sober minded and grounded in the Gospel to avoid being taken in and deceived.

[Dust and Ashes]

I think a good rule of thumb is to judge the miracle and/or the supposed saint by the truth and not vice versa.

There are all sorts of alleged miracles and apparitions occurring in the world today. Some of them appear to be very "Christian."

But if they teach or promote falsehood, they are to be rejected.

When the Antichrist comes, he too will work wonders.

One must be sober minded and grounded in the Gospel to avoid being taken in and deceived.

Boy Howdy, did I need to hear that. Thanks, Maximus. I stopped by to visit with my former pastor today and he was listing all kinds of miracles that have occurred in churches, almost as if to try and validate the teachings of those churches with the fact that miracles had occurred there.

[Maximus]

Boy Howdy, did I need to hear that. Thanks, Maximus. I stopped by to visit with my former pastor today and he was listing all kinds of miracles that have occurred in churches, almost as if to try and validate the teachings of those churches with the fact that miracles had occurred there.

You're welcome.

I know what you mean. You will even encounter Orthodox Christians who have been taken in.

The numerous non-Orthodox supposed apparitions of the Theotokos in recent years seem especially insidious to me.

Because of our love for Mary, we are naturally drawn to such things.

Beware of them, I say.

They all bear the telltale marks of falsehood.

[gzt]

Exactly, be skeptical of any miracle or revelation unless it is in conformance to the Church's teaching, and even then be suspicious. God is always working wonders in the world, that our sins do not destroy it all is a miracle of God's grace.

[Dust and Ashes]

Exactly, be skeptical of any miracle or revelation unless it is in conformance to the Church's teaching, and even then be suspicious. God is always working wonders in the world, that our sins do not destroy it all is a miracle of God's grace.

I remember once when talking about this with Father, he said to be skeptical of any spiritual manifestation and that if I rejected one that was genuine because I was being cautious that God would understand. :)

[Maximus]

I remember once when talking about this with Father, he said to be skeptical of any spiritual manifestation and that if I rejected one that was genuine because I was being cautious that God would understand. :)

I tried, but I wasn't allowed to give you any rep points.